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Old June 13, 2018, 13:26   #1
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Tip - FN49. Modifying .30-06 lugged stock for an 8mm?

Given SARCO has some very nice .30-06 stocks, and the FN-49 is prone to cracked stocks, I thought I should mention a safety issue.

I do not have a trigger group from a .30-06 to compare, but I suspect that the inside rear stock screw hole is recessed on this model. A 34.6-34.7mm pillar in the stock prevents wood compression from over-tightening the screw.

The Egyptian 8mm has a 32.8mm pillar, but so what? Why should it matter?

The fire control group is held in relationship to the receiver (and thus the bolt/ carrier) by this pillar. Increase the distance between the two by 2mm, and the distance between the hammer and disconnector increases. The hammer does not cam back far enough to reach the disconnector and you get hammer follow. Possible doubling. Possible OOB ignition. That's bad.

I have two FN-49s in the shop right now for rebarrel. One already had a replacement .30-06 stock (non-lugged, badly cracked, but repaired), and the other had to have the stock replaced when is split on testfire. Had to machine receiver for lug.










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Old June 13, 2018, 13:33   #2
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Can the pillar ( compression sleeve ) on the 30-06 stock be replaced or milled shorter to work properly on the 8mm ?

I have a FN49 8x57 in the shop needing a stock.



..................

ETA: FWIW, excess stock thickness at the trigger guard tail recess to rear shelf on Garands and M14s can cause doubling as well.

............
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Old June 13, 2018, 13:56   #3
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Can the pillar ( compression sleeve ) on the 30-06 stock be replaced or milled shorter to work properly on the 8mm ?

I have a FN49 8x57 in the shop needing a stock.
yes, Hole is a tight 3/8" I gently tapped it out and shortened it. I couldn't figure out why the hammer was following from one stock to the other with nothing else changed.

The 8mm is flush with the wood top and bottom. The .30-06 protruded, which is why I'm guessing the trigger guard for the .30-06 has a 2mm recess for the extra pillar length.

The other 8mm in .30-06 stock, did not have hammer follow in manually cycling. Maybe it's only with a stacking of tolerances that this one did not have. But I also wonder if the incomplete support contributed to stock splitting? The repair is extensive but professional.
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Old June 13, 2018, 14:26   #4
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Stock was pretty good. I just cleaned it and put a couple coats of Tru oil on it.

There is a gap behind the trigger housing, which makes me think the .30-06 trigger housing is different in more than just length. Also a gap which I assume is for an Automatic change lever.

Some significant compression on one side.

Nice RF cartouche

So yeah, I think for $75? it's a pretty good deal. Came with the hardware, which was pitted but cleaned up well. http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/fn49belgium3006stockset.aspx

One half of the upper handguard matched, the ohter was very dark and doesn't come close, but I suppose I can use the Egyptian one. I leave them off for testfire.












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Old June 13, 2018, 15:03   #5
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One half of the upper handguard matched, the ohter was very dark and doesn't come close
For what it's worth, I noticed a bleaching effect when using spray Oven cleaner (the nasty industrial-waste grade stuff from the $1 store) to leach out goo from the wood pores. YMMV.
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Old June 13, 2018, 15:39   #6
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Yeah, I've bleached wood on purpose, but this is a black walnut piece - can't make it much lighter.
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Old June 13, 2018, 17:55   #7
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Almost looks like someone clamped the stock into a vise, at an angle, to work on, take apart maybe???

Nice wood for 75.00 bucks with hard ware package.
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Old June 13, 2018, 17:58   #8
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.........

I do not have a trigger group from a .30-06 to compare, but I suspect that the inside rear stock screw hole is recessed on this model. A 34.6-34.7mm pillar in the stock prevents wood compression from over-tightening the screw.

The Egyptian 8mm has a 32.8mm pillar, but so what? Why should it matter? ...........
Mark - a good caution indeed. Over the years when discussing .30-06 to Egyptian stock swaps, I have usually tried to remember to mention the longer trigger guard rear screw bushing (what you are calling a pillar) in the .30-06 stock and that it would have to be shortened for use with an Egyptian trigger guard and receiver.

The variances related to this are known and all are identified in my book. For those that have a copy, review Chapter 22, Parts Breakdown, the sections for part 15 (receiver), part 30 (trigger guard), and part 85b (trigger guard rear screw bushing).

Briefly, the first 4000 Venezuelans, and all the Egyptians, had the short rear screw bushing (pillar) and had receivers and trigger guards that had flat seating surfaces for the bushing. All other contracts used the longer bushing, and had trigger guards and receivers having counterbores that the bushing projected into (as you surmised Mark). While there are no photographs of these features in the first edition, they are described in the text and data tables for those parts. The upcoming second edition will have photographs of the two different bushing lengths as well as the counterbores on the later TGs and receivers.
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Old June 13, 2018, 18:35   #9
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There is a gap behind the trigger housing, which makes me think the .30-06 trigger housing is different in more than just length. Also a gap which I assume is for an Automatic change lever.

The first 4000 Venezuelans, and all the Egyptians, did not use a stop screw for the rear trigger guard screw (they just used a thin split washer). Service experience showed that the split washer was not adequate. A stop screw was added for all subsequent contracts/orders which required lengthening the rear "tang" of the trigger guard to accommodate that stop screw - that is why you see a gap in the inletting on the .30-06 stock when you install an Egyptian trigger guard assembly having a shorter tang.

Yes - the gap on the left side of the trigger area is the clearance cut for the automatic fire lever (selector).

In the 1st edition of my book, it takes me a bit over 22,000 words to describe all the FN-49 parts variances. In the second edition, the Parts Breakdown chapter is up to nearly 26,000 words...
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Old June 13, 2018, 19:35   #10
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Hey Goose! So yes or no on the .30--06 trigger housing being internally recessed for rear compression sleeve (pillar)?

BTW, I got a pic for you. Was going to e-mail. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, and means something else, but since FN did offer it in 7.62x54R, I thought .303 Brit was plausible.

Normal:


"7.9" and "303"
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Old June 13, 2018, 19:57   #11
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Hey Goose! So yes or no on the .30--06 trigger housing being internally recessed for rear compression sleeve (pillar)?

BTW, I got a pic for you. Was going to e-mail. I'm sure it's just a coincidence, and means something else, but since FN did offer it in 7.62x54R, I thought .303 Brit was plausible.
1st question - I answered that in the last para of post #8. The later contracts had counterbored trigger guards AND receivers.

2nd question - The FN-49 was never offered chambered for any rimmed cartridge. If that receiver has an Egyptian crest, it was chambered by FN for the 7.92mm Mauser cartridge. If applied by FN, that "303" stamping means something other than chambering - perhaps a manufacturing lot number or whatever.
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Old June 14, 2018, 08:56   #12
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missed it, as when I went through my signed first edition, I was seeking an image.

Also - you point out two different thread pitches on the stock endcap screw. Do you know what they are?

I have one of the fine ones and it is close to M4x .7 or # 8x36, but it isn't. Not #8x40 either.It's finer - maybe #8x48?
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Old June 14, 2018, 10:41   #13
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missed it, as when I went through my signed first edition, I was seeking an image.

Also - you point out two different thread pitches on the stock endcap screw. Do you know what they are?

I have one of the fine ones and it is close to M4x .7 or # 8x36, but it isn't. Not #8x40 either.It's finer - maybe #8x48?
Yeah - sorry - no photos of those features on the TG and receiver in the first edition but there are in the second edition.

I don't know the metric threads on the stock end cap screws...but I guess I should spend some time to try to measure them before the second edition comes out. For determining pitch, it looks like there are at least 10 threads on the screw so I can measure the distance for 10 and then divide. I do not have any thread pitch gages so I have to just go by the measurements. I'll put it on the to-do list...
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Old June 14, 2018, 10:49   #14
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Mark - if I can trouble you - your photo of the 7.9 receiver with the oval FN stamp - can you PM me that serial number - I'm thinking it is probably below around 10,000?
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Old June 18, 2018, 20:11   #15
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gunplumber, if you want I can loan you my 30-06 trigger thingie.
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Old June 18, 2018, 22:17   #16
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gunplumber, if you want I can loan you my 30-06 trigger thingie.
Thanks, but I just needed confirmation of the recess. Don't need to have it in my hands.
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Old June 19, 2018, 11:32   #17
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Mark - if I can trouble you - your photo of the 7.9 receiver with the oval FN stamp - can you PM me that serial number - I'm thinking it is probably below around 10,000?
Got it - thanks Mark.
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Old June 20, 2018, 16:04   #18
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I managed to misplace one of the rear sight screws, so had to find out the thread. So then my ADD said "lets get all the threads."

M15x1.0 Barrel - muzzle end
M27x1.5 Barrel - chamber end
M3x0.5 Rear Sight screw
M6x1.0 Trigger group screws
M3x0.5 trigger group screw lock screw (not the same as Mauser, which is M3.5x0.6)
M5x0.8 sling band
M4x0.5 (fine) stock end cap screw
M4x0.7 (coarse) stock end cap screw* Need verification as this is a guess from Goose's photo.

The M4x0.5 is driving me batty. One rifle is missing the screw, the other is a bit buggered. I cannot fit the screw into my M4x0.5 gauge. But it lines up with my .5 metric thread checker, and does not match x0.55 or x0.45

I took a M4x0.7 screw and chased it with the x0.5 die and it threads in about 6 turns before binding. So I'm going to have to guess it's .5 and chasing both will make them happy.

But in the back of my mind, I know that gunmakers had thread standards that crossed over the whole inch/metric thing, so I don't think it impossible to have an inch thread on it.

M4x.5 is really close to a #8x48. (would be 50.8 tpi)
48 tpi translates to .529 metric pitch

.156" (#8 or 5/32") converts to 3.97mm

When I measure the major diameter of the threads, it is 3.85mm. Even accounting for 60 year of wear, it still seems undersize.

I don't have a 48 tpi gauge but comparing to a #6x48, it's close, but not quite. So I'm just going to have to go with M4x0.5.



Oh, for what it's worth, the head is shorter, but a Beretta 92 grip screw is also M3x0.5 so if I don't find that darned screw, I may have to modify a Beretta screw. All the seams in my concrete floor and baseboards are caulked just so little parts don't get stuck. So I know I will find it eventually.

Numrich offers the screw, but unless the pic is wrong, what they're calling fine thread is the coarse one. https://www.gunpartscorp.com/products/51880

Neither Fastenal, nor McMasters carries M4 fine. fastenal does have M3x.5 hex head - I can probably reshape the head
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Old June 20, 2018, 18:03   #19
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ADD indeed - you took on a project.

I just shamelessly printed this post and put it in my work folder for the Parts Breakdown chapter. I called out the muzzle and chamber-end barrel threads in the 1st edition, and had already added the rear sight aperture adjusting screw thread in the draft for the 2nd edition.

I haven't decided about the others but will consider adding them as well.

I'll try to measure the thread on the "coarse" stock end cap screw in the next day or so...
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Old June 20, 2018, 18:22   #20
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I just shamelessly printed this post and put it in my work folder for the Parts Breakdown chapter.
You're welcome to it. Someday, we'll all be dead and I don't want our community knowledge to die with us.
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Old June 20, 2018, 19:08   #21
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You're welcome to it. Someday, we'll all be dead and I don't want our community knowledge to die with us.
Seriously Mark
why not have YH sleeve in wood for you ?

We both know he is a master at this kind of crap...better than me and I'd bet a damn bit better than you Mr. metal master
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Old June 21, 2018, 10:09   #22
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Seriously Mark
why not have YH sleeve in wood for you ?
I really don't know what you mean by "sleeve in wood".

Paul hasn't been out to the shop for a while, since it's about a 2-1/2 hour drive, but we are in fairly regular communication.
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Old June 21, 2018, 15:31   #23
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I really don't know what you mean by "sleeve in wood".

Paul hasn't been out to the shop for a while, since it's about a 2-1/2 hour drive, but we are in fairly regular communication.
I need to make a run up shortly, but its more like 4 hours plus my place to yours!

Arizona is a huge ass state for anyone that's never been out this way.

Need to rummage through your wood piles, and drop off a bunch of my own gun work that needs your attention.

Except this next trip, going to drive up and stay overnight, my old ass does not care for that much driving in one day anymore.LOL
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Old June 21, 2018, 15:36   #24
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I need to make a run up shortly, but its more like 4 hours plus my place to yours!

Arizona is a huge ass state for anyone that's never been out this way.

Need to rummage through your wood piles, and drop off a bunch of my own gun work that needs your attention.

Except this next trip, going to drive up and stay overnight, my old ass does not care for that much driving in one day anymore.LOL
Well as long as you don't do what you did last time (hehehhe - just kidding), I've got a spare futon.
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Old June 21, 2018, 15:57   #25
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Well as long as you don't do what you did last time (hehehhe - just kidding), I've got a spare futon.
Sounds like the beginnings of a good plan, will bring the thick steaks!

I never told ya, doc's figured out what all that was about, and not that long ago.
Seems two of the meds I was taking, off both now, when combined went nuts in my system when exposed to high heat conditions.

And living in AZ, not a good thing at all!!!!

What we're speaking about, I got to Mark's, said hello, walked into his shop, and then threw up for what seemed a very long time in his trash can!

Embarrassing to say the least!
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Old June 22, 2018, 09:47   #26
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I managed to misplace one of the rear sight screws, so had to find out the thread. So then my ADD said "lets get all the threads."

M4x0.7 (coarse) stock end cap screw* Need verification as this is a guess from Goose's photo.

The M4x0.5 is driving me batty. One rifle is missing the screw, the other is a bit buggered. I cannot fit the screw into my M4x0.5 gauge. But it lines up with my .5 metric thread checker, and does not match x0.55 or x0.45
Mark - good "guesstimate" on the M4x0.7 from just looking at the photo. I pulled one of those and measured 10 threads - got right on 7mm so the pitch for one thread would be 0.7.

On the fine thread, I also got M4x0.5.

I will have both of those threads in the 2nd edition of the book.

Thanks
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