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Old May 17, 2018, 10:53   #1
jhend170
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Hey Huey! 6.8?

So the cuz wanting to do his primo build has decide to go 6.8. As you are like the most expertiest expert on the 6.8 in these here parts I have a 2-part question for you...

What do you consider to be the best (read that as "long life with great accuracy") 6.8 barrel maker for the dollar? What do you consider the best 6.8 barrel period? Having informed him about the bennies of melonite he's leaning that way for preference, but a highly accurate barrel that were CL'd (is there really such a thing?) would work as well.

Were I to venture a guess I'd say ARP for the dollar and a custom Black Hole for absolutes, but curious what you think.
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Old May 18, 2018, 18:44   #2
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ARP for value White Oak Armament or Noveske for best could want in 6.8. You could order up a Bartlein or Lilja tube but 6.8 is not a long range round. It's a mid range MOA capable hammer. My guess if look at majority of rifle shots taken and then rifle shots that hooked up,with target vast majority are 250 yards or less. I have a first round cold bore kill on a ground hog using an ARP 18" 1:10 5R barrel which blew the fat ground hog to bits. The thin skinned Speer 90 grain TNT still had enough gas to violently expand and fragment even past 250 yards.

I sent an email (hope it got there before Jane went home) to White Oak Armament this morning as shopping for another 20" 6.8 barrel want to use for maximum range with the cartridge. Have an ARP 20" and want to run them side by side to determine velocity and accuracy difference. Assume from past experience the White Oak Armament will shoot better but want to prove it, not just assume. I can say between ARP and Noveske the Noveske is more accurate inch for inch. With Noveske vs White Oak Armament it's back and forth pretty much being a toss up. Have all three in 18" and want all three in 20".

If building the 6.8 as a multipurpose hunting rifle would use any of the three in 18". My favorite 6.8 lengths are 10.5" for pistol, 12.5" for SBR, 13.7" and 14.7" for pinning to get 16". If using a suppressor adapter a 14.7" barrel comes in at 16.5" to 16.75". My 13.7" Noveske tubes with Noveske Flaming Pig flash cans really throw sound downrange away from operator and roll a nice fireball out the end while measure 16.1". Since have no plan to leave state in next few days have a 13.7" Noveske barrel 6.8 with Flaming Pig behind seat in lock. Loaded rifle is no issue here in home state. Wife is travelling out of state where a loaded AR rifle is a legal issue so has a 10.5" Noveske 6.8 pistol with AAC Brake-Out muzzle device and KAK Shockwave pistol brace kit. That gives us each the most legally loaded firepower that is handy.

Have a pair of Noveske 18" 6.8's that shoot so good they should be illegal. Each are loaded with so many high dollar options like Leupold Fire-Dot scopes and Burris Fastfire's they sit waiting till I can no longer handle my M1a's due to age creeping up and will become my primary old man battle rifles. Out to 250 yards they hit with 80% of energy of 7.62 NATO so hopefully can still be dangerous past the age of 70 and beyond.

Ran math and realized if shot two zombies side by side at 75 yards (good engagement range popping them as try coming over the fence), one with a 5.56 and other with a 6.8 the 6.8 delivers combined energy of a 5.56 plus the energy of a 45 acp at 25 feet. Have heard stories about 9mm and 5.56 not dropping a motivated zombie from combat veterans. Many also said a 45 sits a zombie down and takes fight right out of them. It's a convoluted way of calculating energy but knowing if had to pop a zombie with a 6.8 it's got the same gas on target as if shot them with a 5.56 and 45 acp simultaneously makes me feel confident.

After building and tweaking my first 6.8 set up a red neck combat course in a construction area where logging crew was still clearing trees and grading crew was right behind them pushing ground flat and level. Neither crew was working and client said if job supervisor said o.k., to shoot all I want. All he had was a service tech greasing machines over in corner near road. Spent a half hour setting up pieces of logs on stumps, standing up rocks, putting big clods of hard red clay on rocks and high spots, etc. When finally had my course set up, backed up next to truck where had logs stood up close as 25 feet and far a 200 yards along with rocks and big clumps of dirt, many which didn't purposely place, just chose as targets while running magazine after magazine. It was busting rocks, splitting logs or tumbling them like bowling pins and knew I had a winner.

Rifle had about 50 to 80 rounds through it as selected buffer and adjusted gas. It was a 16" ARP rifle barrel with 2-7x scope and 1x red dot sitting on top in a PEPR mount. Scope was zeroed 2.5" high at 100 yards giving me a 275 yard point blank range based on chronograph and computer generated chart said any range from 25 yards to 275 yards no round would hit more than 2.75" high or 3.0" low. It was 2.9" high at 150 yards, 1.5" high at 200 yards and 3" low at 275 yards and 6" low at 300 yards. 6.8 is an odd cartridge, it is a relatively flat shooter out to 250 yards but at 275 it starts falling from sky like a brick. It's also why all the kitchen table build guys that claim sub MOA accuracy with unsquared receivers, Palmetto $79 bolts and deer killed at 275 yards with their suppressed 12.5" pistol make me leery. This is Chuck Hawks math on a rifle he tested.

Quote:
The trajectory of the metal case bullet looks like this: +1.2" at 50 yards, +2.7" at 100 yards, + 2.8" at 150 yards, +1.4" at 200 yards, -3" at 267 yards, and -6.6" at 300 yards. The maximum point blank range (+/- 3") is thus 267 yards. These figures are computed for a rifle with a telescopic sight mounted 1.5" over the bore. This, just like the Army claimed, is similar to the trajectory of the .308 with a 150 grain bullet.
A 14.7" to 18" good quality barrel properly built with warm ammo (remember some factory ammo is still loaded to,6.8 spc 1 SAAMI pressure) is a 275 yard point blank rifle. Past 275 yards if miscalculate range by 10 yards you will most likely miss you target. Notice in quoted text past his 267 point blank round dropped 3.6" in 33 yards. It's what you live with on 6.8 and why I doubt some claims have read from folk with 10.5" to 12.5" tubes. My 282 cold bore ground hog gave me time to launch Strelock Pro, zap him with a good laser rangefinder while my anemometer sent wind data to App via Bluetooth. Even had time to run shot through Nikon's App as he was not paying any attention to me. When ready I whistled and he stood up and looked right at me.

Strelock Pro:



Nikon Free App:



Put second circle under reticle just left of center chest and squeezed. Bullet entered dead center at base of his neck almost decapitating the bugger. If not for some fur and skin holding head on body he would have lost it totally. Zombie size target belive can dope shots from experience out to 325/350 yards if had to but any more and most likely would be trying to spot hits so could adjust follow up without time to range target.

Right now Harrison still has a 10 of his 14.7" first run that length left in stock, about thirty various profile 16" in three different profiles (I would skip the feather weight) along with ten 18" and ten 20" all in 3R rifling. Have one of his 3R barrels unbuilt to date as most of my ARP tubes are 5R. Believe there are three 16" ARP 5R in locker if unsure of 3R. The 3R is supposed to give a tad more velocity but I prefer the extra grooves engraving projectile as travels down bore but had a choice of 3R or no R in length needed. Going to build another 10.5" piston drive pistol and try to steal my 10.5" Noveske 6.8 back from wife.

White Oak Armament has 16", 18" and 20" in 1:11 twist match grade stainless for $290 each. That would be my recomendation, if decide suggest calling and not ordering online. Ask for Jane, tell her your a friend of the Hillbilly from Georgia and discuss needs with her. She knows the product as well as John and will get your order processed and shipped same day if call early. My last barrel from ARP took over two weeks before got notice was shipped due to their moving to new facility and orders taking a little longer than normal. ARP does have melonite and WOA bare stainless but some flat heat resistant paint will fix that if an issue. Noveske has multiple profiles and lengths in stock starting at $350 and ranging up to $465 with standard low profile gas block.

There you go from my perspective, $200 for 3R tube from ARP or wait for them to get 5R back in stock. If I do have three 5R tubes might turn one loose just as favor as built my second 16" ARP 5R last month. Can't see needing four ARP 16" rifles built up in near future. $290 for air gauged match tube from White Oak and see if you can squeeze a "hillbilly discount" though doubt they will unless overstocked. Crack it like a joke and see how Jane rolls with it. Or if it's his total Primo build can pop another $100 for a Noveske profiled Pac-Nor.

Would suggest if buy WOA buy their bolt with barrel and put in a Colt M16 carrier. Fly version 2.0 may be able to hook you up with that piece. I tested ASC, Palmetto, D&H, AR Stoner magazines along with Lancer 5.56 L7's only 2/3 full and though the AR Stoner are made by ASC they consistently locked back harder as round every time, didn't check to see if the springs were different in the two. If buy ARP might want to get their bolt as well unless find a fair deal on a 6.8 bolt carrier group but get an HPT/MPI shot peened bolt. Your igniting 25% more propellant with each trip of the trigger.

Neen buying the Ergo adjustible gas blocks cheap from Mkdway and using on 6.8 with good success. With the Ergo block really don't matter which buffer use as can adjust gas to find sweet spot, H1 buffers seem to always work along with a M16 Clinic buffer pad installed. Have fun, make sure and square front of receiver if send to me will do for free and mail back on my dime. Also realize once you open Pandora's 6.8 Box may be building more.
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Old May 22, 2018, 07:47   #3
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Thanks a lot Huey. That is exactly what I was needing. If the cuz does as I suspect he'll likely go with the Noveske, but it sounds like any of them will give him the service he needs. He does have an appreciation for precision though.

This isn't all for just him though. With my first build I had 2 uppers factory matched to my lower, and have yet to build anything on that second upper. I had been thinking 6.8 for it all along, but now it looks like I'll get the chance to try one before I decide. I know everyone is all gaga over the 6.5, but I too have second thoughts about how little meat is left on the bolt for it. Being the lover of oddballs though ARP has their own 6mm in the 6.8 case, which really sounds like a winner to me. Lord knows a .243 will take a deer or pig without issue, and the occasional groundhog were one silly enough to pop his head up inside my shooting ability.

Anyway thanks again for the info.
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Old May 22, 2018, 09:18   #4
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Originally Posted by jhend170 View Post
So the cuz wanting to do his primo build has decide to go 6.8. As you are like the most expertiest expert on the 6.8 in these here parts I have a 2-part question for you...

What do you consider to be the best (read that as "long life with great accuracy") 6.8 barrel maker for the dollar? What do you consider the best 6.8 barrel period? Having informed him about the bennies of melonite he's leaning that way for preference, but a highly accurate barrel that were CL'd (is there really such a thing?) would work as well.

Were I to venture a guess I'd say ARP for the dollar and a custom Black Hole for absolutes, but curious what you think.
I'm not Huey obviously, but I do have a lot of experience with and about the 6.8.

ARP is a good barrel maker. And they at one time (may still have) their barrels threaded 5.8-24, which gives more meat at the muzzle.

With that said, most "common/commercial" barrels are going to be well made too. You'll want to find a barrel that is chambered 6.8 SPCII. Not the original 6.8spc.

The 2nd gen has a relieved chamber cut that reduces some of the higher pressures that were present in the 6.8 spc chamber. And you'll want the fastest twist rate that you can find.

Now with all that said, I shot a buck with a 120 gr hornady SST load at 45 yards and it did not have a complete pass through. At 45 yards, I was shocked and let down to see that it didn't.

The bullet stopped just under the hide on the far side of the deer and you could even feel the chunks rolling around together under your hand.

If I hadn't made a perfect shot to the heart, I wouldn't have been able to track the deer to have found it. There was zero blood from the entrance hole. Luckily the deer dropped in its' tracks but if it hadn't been a heart shot and had ran off a ways, would probably had been a lost deer.

While the result of dead right there was obvious, that was the last shot that I made with it because I traded it off right after that. Any rifle that won't penetrate a deer at 40 or 45 yards, I have no desire to own.

The tiny entrance sealed up pretty much instantly.

The 6.8 is just not for me.


Last edited by John A; May 22, 2018 at 09:27.
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Old May 22, 2018, 09:55   #5
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I'm not Huey obviously, but I do have a lot of experience with and about the 6.8.

ARP is a good barrel maker. And they at one time (may still have) their barrels threaded 5.8-24, which gives more meat at the muzzle.

With that said, most "common/commercial" barrels are going to be well made too. You'll want to find a barrel that is chambered 6.8 SPCII. Not the original 6.8spc.

The 2nd gen has a relieved chamber cut that reduces some of the higher pressures that were present in the 6.8 spc chamber. And you'll want the fastest twist rate that you can find.

Now with all that said, I shot a buck with a 120 gr hornady SST load at 45 yards and it did not have a complete pass through. At 45 yards, I was shocked and let down to see that it didn't.

The bullet stopped just under the hide on the far side of the deer and you could even feel the chunks rolling around together under your hand.
If I hadn't made a perfect shot to the heart, I wouldn't have been able to track the deer to have found it. There was zero blood from the entrance hole. Luckily the deer dropped in its' tracks but if it hadn't been a heart shot and had ran off a ways, would probably had been a lost deer.

While the result of dead right there was obvious, that was the last shot that I made with it because I traded it off right after that. Any rifle that won't penetrate a deer at 40 or 45 yards, I have no desire to own.

The tiny entrance sealed up pretty much instantly.

The 6.8 is just not for me.

Thank you for your input about the ARP barrels. I know at some point, no matter what the cuz duz, I'll likely build something with one of their products.

As for what I highlighted though that sounds to me like the bullet failed, not the cartridge. If the bullet came apart to "chunks" am I wrong to think that's exactly what a hunting bullet is NOT supposed to do? The purpose of the hunting-type bullet (as I understand it and find in what I kill) is to expand and do as much internal damage as possible while delivering a concussive blow at the same time, and it only does that if it stays together. I can't help but think at 40 to 45 yds your projo may have actually going TOO fast to do its job, and disintegrated, rather than mushroom and do damage. Were any ribs or scapulae hit in the process of the bullet passing through the animal?

I'm certainly open to what others have to say about it, but I have to question what I see as a potential problem outside of the cartridge, to ensure the data applies to the subject matter and that other variables are removed. In this case, the projo competency is a variable that would need to be taken into consideration.
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Old May 22, 2018, 10:32   #6
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I have some "autopsy" pics of that deer that I could PM you if I can find them.

PS, it was a factory loaded bullet.

Last edited by John A; May 22, 2018 at 10:50.
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Old May 22, 2018, 11:27   #7
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I have some "autopsy" pics of that deer that I could PM you if I can find them.

PS, it was a factory loaded bullet.
Was doing some reading on that loading, and more than one person had a similar complaint, with one saying they did get pass-through, but that the exit was similar in size to the entrance. On the youtubz there's a comparison video they made using that round and comparing it to a solid copper projo at 100gr. The copper projo retained essentially all its weight, while the 120gr SST ended up at slightly less weight (under 100gr) from its 120gr starting point. I'm not sure I'm impressed, and I would have never doubted Hornadys otherwise.
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Old May 22, 2018, 11:52   #8
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Yeah, there's a lot of folks who have said similar about the hornday SST.

I looked through some of my pics and I couldn't find the photos.

However, from 3:07 to 3:24 in the video you can see the shot, and the jacket that separated and filled up with meat. All the lead was separated from the jacket.

It missed rib bone on the entrance side, but did hit ribs on what would be the exit side and the fragments were just underneath of the skin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYhAN8rvKS8

Here's the trail camera pic that caught the moment that it anchored. As you can see, there isn't even a speck of blood anywhere to be seen. Its' left side is the entrance.

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Old May 22, 2018, 12:01   #9
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http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=719339

http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...-for-whitetail

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=540278

There are more, but this should reinforce what I'm telling you.
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Old May 22, 2018, 12:47   #10
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I believe the Hornady 120 grain SST is loaded a bit anemic. I have a bunch but after testing have relegated it to "in the house" ammo. Remember one big design parameter of the 6.8 was to limit the number of pass through's so all energy is dumped in target and less chance of colatteral damage. Can shoot zombies without bullet coming out back, through two walls and killing your wife. We have an old thread where Gman posted pics of elk he killed DRT with a small 14.7" 6.8 carbine with wound channel could drive a truck through. Ammo selection is very important and testing a big part.

The deer shot can look at it two ways, 100% energy transfer as when bullet exits it's wasted from that point on. Also does tell something about penetration of projectile. I like 90 grain bonded bullets. Nosler 90gr PPT Bonded Solid Base and Speer Gold Dots are do all projectiles that test well for penetration and have shut down a large hog with gaping hole out opposite side using a single Gold Dot. When launch a Speer 90 grain TNT will blow apart coyote and ground hogs, on a deer bet it would blow a 4" entry hole and stop first large muscle or bone makes contact with. I seldom deer hunt anymore I just kill them like any varmint when have someone know will pick them up and haul off. Last seven have killed used a 22 Hornet as didn't want to destroy meat so head shot them all. I bet in 6.8 a Nosler 110 grain Accubond, either of the 90 grain bonded bullets mentioned or Barnes 95 to 110 grain copper solids would most likely slay deer like hit by lightning.

Basing effectiveness of a cartridge on a single shot on one animal from only one bullet choice is not giving it a fair shake. I could load some 25-06 up with 85 to 90 grain bullets and say it sucks for deer or choose a 117 grain Interlock and slay an elk then use it to make a blanket statement 25-06 is a good elk choice which with any but about half dozen bullet choices would be misleading. When walking my farm looking for poachers usually carry a 6.8 in event have a trophy buck hop up and just can't resist it or trip across half dozen drunk poachers around camp fire all armed swearing they are on WMA. Personally for mid size game to humans inside the 50 to 200 yard range think 6.8 will do all needed with decent ammo.

Black Talons are supposed to be "cop killer" evil bullets. Had friend shot through thigh with a 357 mag Black Talon and he rode his motorcycle to my house wanting me to fix it as could see the perfectly expanded bullet just under the skin on inside of thigh. Would have been easy to make quick cut, pop it out, through in a few sutures and bandage but took him to hospital. He had a warrant and was afraid it would pop up and why wanted me to fix. Doc did same thing I did, filled out an accidental gun shot report and we were gone in 90 minutes plus he had antibiotics. To read the crap about Black Talons he should have lost his leg at best.

There is no one bullet, one animal definitive test. Why in the industry use no barrier, four layer denim and two layer leather tests as minimum over gelatin. Then if defensive/offensive ammo have to look at plywood and sheet metal barriers. 6.8 absolutely performs beautifully with all of these using bonded bullets and copper solids. Military put a lot of development into 6.8 and it seems to perform stunningly for what it was designed. That said if talked into going deer hunting my first three choices are 35 Remington lever action, Winchester M70 Featherweight in 308 or 7mm Practical for long shot areas. Have seen pictures of deer shot with 6.8 that were absolutely blown up with massive wound channels.
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Old May 22, 2018, 14:43   #11
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Basing effectiveness of a cartridge on a single shot on one animal from only one bullet choice is not giving it a fair shake.
The 120's were the heaviest "premier" hunting ammunition that was available at the time. Matter of fact, I jumped on the SST's right after they were released and barely in time for my rifle season opener. I recall having a heckuva time tracking a box down.

I simply did not like how the gun performed. Ammunition cost was high, availability was next to none. This was before I started reloading. Come to think of it, I still haven't seen a box of 6.8 anywhere locally and that was several years ago.

With hindsight being 20/20, I have no regrets about the decision to go a different direction and caliber. The 6.8 wasn't for me. I wasn't impressed enough to hang onto it. I traded it less than a month later.
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Old May 23, 2018, 06:48   #12
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And that's what makes the world go round. If we all liked or were satisfied with same thing would be no more product development and improvements. When 6.8 first hit the market the dual standards of spc 1 and spc 2 chambers combined with SAAMI having tested based on spc 1 chamber it resulted in lots of issues.

I am a collector as well as a shooter. Have two Ruger Mini 14's with spc 1 chambers, a Ruger Hawkeye bolt action and Remington Police Tactical with spc 1 chambers. Like to shoot them on occasion and use the 120 grain SST in them as mostly sure it's 100% loaded to spc 1 pressure and functions flawlessly shooting paper in my older original rifles don't want to do a spc 2 chamber modification to.
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Old May 23, 2018, 08:25   #13
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Personally I am sold on 6.5 all day.
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Old June 09, 2018, 13:19   #14
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The bolt head size on the Grendle and 7.62 x 39 are apparently problematic in an AR-15.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/...re-/5-2087684/



A fix for feeding the 7.62 x 39 round thru an AR is here.
http://www.majorpandemic.com/2014/11...y-on-AR15.html

I have an "R guns" 7.62x 39 AR upper that remains untested, so I guess I better see if it needs some feed ramp work.

Apparently the 6.8 has fewer problems than the 6.5, and it may be a deciding factor for me on a new upper, given the minor differences in terminal performance.
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Old June 09, 2018, 17:48   #15
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Thanks Gent's for one of the best threads on Falfiles.

Really Great Details.
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Old June 09, 2018, 18:26   #16
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The bolt head size on the Grendle and 7.62 x 39 are apparently problematic in an AR-15.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/...re-/5-2087684/



A fix for feeding the 7.62 x 39 round thru an AR is here.
http://www.majorpandemic.com/2014/11...y-on-AR15.html

I have an "R guns" 7.62x 39 AR upper that remains untested, so I guess I better see if it needs some feed ramp work.

Apparently the 6.8 has fewer problems than the 6.5, and it may be a deciding factor for me on a new upper, given the minor differences in terminal performance.
7.62x39 AR run great except for the mags, mags are the bad part of that equation
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Old June 09, 2018, 19:36   #17
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Built mine with a white oak 18 and its a tack driver

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Old June 10, 2018, 18:32   #18
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White Oak Armament, Noveske and ARP in that order have all three. Hope I don't start disliking 458 SOCOM for same reason didn't like 6.5 Grendel which is thin rims on bolt heads.

If know who to ask about half Bison 6.8 barrels are made by White Oak Armament and saves a few bucks but shoot like W.O.A.
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Old June 11, 2018, 04:35   #19
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You all convinced me, Thank You.

Gathering parts now, If I have any rough spots I'll ask you experts.
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Old June 11, 2018, 11:44   #20
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ARP did their first run of 14.7" barrels and a pinned 14.7 is a hammer but if need more I skip 16" barrel and go to 18". Don't see a big improvement from 18" to 20". My 13.7" Noveske barrels are compact and shoot well but almost force you into an SBR stamp unless pin suppressor.
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Old June 11, 2018, 15:02   #21
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Built mine with a white oak 18 and its a tack driver

You have 'em in stock Jen? Might have to drag the cuz to the next show and come see you. When and where are you next?
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Old June 11, 2018, 15:43   #22
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Didn't know Jen was a vendor. Have a website? Way to keep up with what sell/selling so can support you when able?
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A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
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Old June 12, 2018, 15:33   #23
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Didn't know Jen was a vendor. Have a website? Way to keep up with what sell/selling so can support you when able?
Yep... have bought quite a few small AR parts from her through the years, when at a show and was needing something specific, or wanting to touch and feel something before buying. I think she's Texas Tactical Gear, but not the training site, the one in south Houston. I think this is her...

http://www.houstongunstore.com/
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Old June 13, 2018, 06:12   #24
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Thought it was these guys https://www.schuylerarmsco.com/ when I clicked on the link.

Must use the same webstore software.
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Old June 13, 2018, 08:42   #25
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Thought it was these guys https://www.schuylerarmsco.com/ when I clicked on the link.

Must use the same webstore software.
I'm not saying she can't own something out of state, but I see her at most of the gun shows I go to (which are few these days, but still...) and she shows she's in Texas. I may have the site wrong but I'm 98.6178522% sure she's here in town.
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