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Old September 03, 2017, 17:22   #51
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And a reply from Anthony

Further to my reply to you last night.
There is an assumption by most reading this thread that the Gun Plumber and some others actually know what they are talking about. This assumption couldn't be further from the truth. The GP user is a self described arrogant bastard and is actually contradicting himself in his posting.
1.) he states that twist rate doesn't effect the harmonic,
2.) he then goes on to say that weight and profile are what affect barrel harmonics.
A simple fact which by his own arrogance he has either ignored or is unaware of is that as you increase the twist rate you lighten the barrel due to the increase in length of the lands and grooves within the barrel.
Our barrels are made in the USA and have a faster 1 in 10 twist rate, this twist rate when combined with a M118LR chamber gives better long range accuracy than the Mil barrels commonly used. This chambering has been proven to shoot Ball ammunition accurately as well as the heavier long range loads.
I like the F1 flash hider that Lithgow developed for our L1A1 unfortunately on the service barrel it degraded accuracy.
See Skenerton.
On our USA Made barrel the subtle changes that we made to barrel structure by changing twist and surface hardness have produced a harmonic that when used with the F1 flash hider improved accuracy.
When GP states that the FAL is not capable of sub MOA this just goes to prove that he has never built or used a rifle outside of Mil spec and therefore reinforcing his poor opinion of its accuracy capabilities. Others making the same claim or agreeing with GP have only ever shot a mil spec FAL thus basing their opinions as GP does on their limited experience.
We decided to do a run of 12 fully modernized Aussie L1A1 rifles fully appreciating that we would not necessarily be understood or desired by the battle rifle crowd. The people who purchase our rifles want the best most accurate rifle that their money can buy rather than settling for a very ordinary mil spec rifle like the what GP claims to offer that can't shoot sub MOA.
As with all custom built highly accurate rifles our pricing reflects the amount of work it takes to produce. Unfortunately the abundance of cheap Century Sporters and their other FAL variants has led to a false impression as to the value of the L1A1 type rifle.
Since GP is in total and overwhelming disbelief about the accuracy of our L1A1 rifle he should allow any new purchaser of our fully modernized L1A1 rifle to take a shot at him from 600 yds, he can stand still or run but as some Marines like to say "He'll only die tired".

Last edited by baker72; September 03, 2017 at 17:38.
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Old September 03, 2017, 18:26   #52
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Originally Posted by baker72 View Post
And more bullshit from Anthony . ..
OMG, reading this I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cry.

Quote:
1.) he states that twist rate doesn't effect the harmonic,
2.) he then goes on to say that weight and profile are what affect barrel harmonics.
A simple fact which by his own arrogance he has either ignored or is unaware of is that as you increase the twist rate you lighten the barrel due to the increase in length of the lands and grooves within the barrel.
Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove instead of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures.

Quote:
Our barrels are made in the USA and have a faster 1 in 10 twist rate, this twist rate when combined with a M118LR chamber gives better long range accuracy than the Mil barrels commonly used. This chambering has been proven to shoot Ball ammunition accurately as well as the heavier long range loads.
Strawman much? No dispute that a commercial match barrel will often shoot better than a surplus GI barrel. Does not make it sub-moa. Nor does blessing it with melonite. The .117 freebore and reduced .3085 throat is optimal for the 168-175g Federal Matchking. The detriment is that it may not like certain surplus ammo.
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Old September 03, 2017, 20:14   #53
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I don't have a dog in this fight and the builder can charge what he wants but at the end of the day it's still a kit built parts gun....no matter how well it shoots...or doesn't....
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Old September 03, 2017, 20:44   #54
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When one or preferably several of Anthony's rifles is/are demonstrated by a neutral third party or other credible witness to deliver consistent 5 shot 100 yard groups of 1" or less, from the magazine, I will gladly eat crow. Truth is, if such were demonstrated, he would probably get some sales here among members. Until then it is put up or shut up.

I must admit I find his "explanation" and further comments above to be without merit. Frankly, while one can change barrel harmonics any way one wishes, my amateur opinion based upon some experience and lots of observation, is that harmonics be damned, the FAL simply is near incapable of delivering consistent 1 moa due to the many compromises inherent in the design over and above the harmonic "issue". We all know good smithing can minimize these issues but I am skeptical that any amount of work or skill can deliv er what Anthony claims. I'd love to be proven wrong, but until then I second the "bullshit" verdict.
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Old September 03, 2017, 20:55   #55
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due to the extra rigidity from the meloniting
Does that mean that Melonite is like the Viagara for riFALs
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Old September 03, 2017, 20:58   #56
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Does that mean that Melonite is like the Viagara for riFALs
I'm thinking maybe it's time to melonite the ol' Johnson

And I don't mean the rifle !!!
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Old September 03, 2017, 21:02   #57
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Does that mean that Melonite is like the Viagara for riFALs
Is it available in a daily dose?

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Old September 03, 2017, 21:26   #58
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this whole "ignore the master tradesmen, only I know the secrets of the L1A1" thing is off-putting. I have my own feelings about decorum between brother tradesmen, though. Numbers speak louder than words, a simple demonstration could close the matter.

Honestly, I'm more interested if it'll run without worry on whatever cheap steel case or weird surplus ammunition it's fed than if it'll drive tacks a mile away when the moon and Venus are in the right alignment and the proper purification rituals are performed.

Being new to market, when I first saw this listing a month or so ago, I thought it a quick buy-in, paying a premium for a replica with a few perks rather than going through the unpaid labor of tracking down an original at a similar price point. I think that would have been a reasonable argument.
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Old September 03, 2017, 21:31   #59
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Smile

GP we have had our differences I know, I'm posting these as I think its fair to give a bloke that's built me few great rifles a chance to defended himself since he is being attcked every few weeks.
So this is from me not Anthony
That said

I'm a machinist by trade I did a five year Apprenticeship in Australia and 5 years App here as a pipe fitter

Ive never done any gun work but I assume rifling is done by broaching And this removes mat'l in the bore giving the bore a twist rate and the lower the number the tighter the twist

All I can compare it to would be if I was matching a 3 start thread I'm removing mat'l at a tight rate while traving less distance thus removing more mat"l

If that is correct ?
So by cutting the twist into the bore you cut the groove removing mat'l and the lands are left behind

increasing the twist rate would mean a tighter twist hence more mat'l remove verse a longer twist and less mat'l ?
,
So by machining the bore with more twist my tool is moving down the bore less v speed over diameter than a higher twist rate where the tool would move faster down the bore removing less mat'l ?

I'm really curious,

I'm confused on the 4 grooves v 6 grooves also , it would seem that a 4 groove would have more mat'l left in the bore than a 6 groove ?

You say below that increase the twist rate leaves more lands and increase mat'l in the bore? but I don't see hoW , you then say each land is of set by the groove sort of contradicting the the increase in mass , I've never matching anything and increased the mass.


Cheers Will

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OMG, reading this I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cry.



Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove instead of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures.



Strawman much? No dispute that a commercial match barrel will often shoot better than a surplus GI barrel. Does not make it sub-moa. Nor does blessing it with melonite. The .117 freebore and reduced .3085 throat is optimal for the 168-175g Federal Matchking. The detriment is that it may not like certain surplus ammo.

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Old September 03, 2017, 21:39   #60
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blah blah blah,,,but do your rifels shoot like laizurz >?
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Old September 03, 2017, 22:26   #61
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I don't have a dog in this fight and the builder can charge what he wants but at the end of the day it's still a kit built parts gun....no matter how well it shoots...or doesn't....
That about sums it up.
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Old September 03, 2017, 22:43   #62
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"A 1 in 10 Twist Rate Barrel that's Chambered for M118LR Sniper Ammunition.

Runs NATO or Commercial Brass in all Bullet Grain weights.

Original Military barrels were 1 in 12 twist and chambered for M80 Ball neither of which was capable of accurate long range work."

Yeeeaaahhh...this sorta reminds me of old veterans who used to claim in Korea,the enemy rifles could shoot our ammo,but we couldn't shoot theirs...

..and what the hell is this???
"Forged Match Grade Vintage Entreprise Arms Buena Park Receiver"
Don't know about you boys...but I think it would be a better rifle with an Imbel receiver. Enterprise...nope.Not worth the gamble.
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Old September 03, 2017, 23:32   #63
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Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove instead of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures.
How does this work? An increase in twist rate is a faster twist rate, thus 1 in 12 increased to 1 in 10?

Seemingly for any given length barrel profile a 4 groove 1 in 10 twist rate would weigh less than a 4 groove 1 in 12 twist rate just because the grooves are longer, thus less weight? Does the ID change? The slower the twist the more the barrel weighs? A smooth bore would weigh even more? The faster the twist the more material in the grooves removed?

Educate me!
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Old September 04, 2017, 01:43   #64
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A beat to shit AK or a tricked out FAL/SLR, suspect the AK will still be running long after the tricked out tight as a tick FAL/SLR is regulated to the parts bin.

There are rare cases where a sub minute rifle is required, but just how many head shots at 3 or 400 yds does one need to make, in record setting time, where a magazine fed semi auto rifle is required over a decent bolt gun with optics, all at 1/3 the cost of this rifle?

And anyone that claims a sub minute FAL/SLR, made on demand, made in numbers, please sending one to a someone for an independent review before making the claim, would solve a host of issues and questions.

I'm sure that there are a bunch of old boys down at Fort Benning that would love to get their hands on one to try out and suspect they would jump at the chance just for the asking.
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Old September 04, 2017, 06:15   #65
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baker72, I do not know if you remember but years ago someone here mentioned they knew a guy who would take a FAL put a barrel wrapped with some coating until it made it look like a horse's dong, and then it would be doing submoa. A lot of people here asked the member (dong, member) singing the praises to show some groupings after he got his done (the joke keeps on giving).

When he did get his back, he showed some pictures of the finished product but refused to show the groupings. We are not talking about a neutral party here technically, but the bloke who sang the praises of this shop. He categorically refused, saying something on the lines of "if you want to post grouping, have yours built by the guy and then shoot it." And weeks/months later added that "BTW, he stopped offering these services, so too bad for those who did not send their FALs to him with a wad of money!"

That kind of talk does not go well, and this feels like a bit of a variation of the same theme. Hence the need for data.

I do not know which falfiles member Anthony lives close to, but it would make sense to meet with someone at a range and do the proper 100yr/100m grouping test. Ideally with a different set of ammo but probably a box of black hills 175 would be a great start; at least that is what I used in a Remington 700 (not mine) with 1:10 twist to bore myself all the way to 1Kyd (yes that rifle was that good and I felt I was there just to reload and move the trigger). Of course each rifle likes a specific ammo, but if that rifle can deliver sub moa on the entire box of whatever, I would think GP would start to respect your friend's claims. And if we then could get some of his customers to repeat the test, well, it is hard to argue with hard data.

Here is one item that confuses me though: you said Anthony has built and delivered more than one of these sub-moa rifles, and yet I have not seen or heard of anyone bragging about them. Doesn't that strike you as odd, specially in this age of internet and smart phones and youtubes? After all, isn't bragging about their rifles similar to dick size competitions?
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Old September 04, 2017, 06:20   #66
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The amount of total barrel mass between those two twist rates would be miniscule.
http://www.ruger.com/products/precis...ets/18004.html
hmmm....Ruger seems to think a 1/10 rate is fine.
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Old September 04, 2017, 06:34   #67
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Why do not other numerous manufacturers who melonite or nitride their barrels make these same claims? You would think it would be a major selling point for increased sales and "prestige" for the companies.
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Old September 04, 2017, 07:52   #68
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Yes that would be a good idea and I will suggest it to him
The real question is are people upset at his prices or his work. I don't see anyone here that actually had work done by him complaing. I'm curious at viciousness of these attacks and that every month we have a new one . . Could it be a running theme with a few members here ?

Barrel harmonic is beyond me. I've no idea what it means. Or melionite a barrel and how it will effect it. It seems to be more common now days some barrel come that way from the factory . Or you need to send the barrel to and expert to have it done. does the aveage punter on this site understand the process I doubt it , lots of shit kickers here chiming in but maybe one or two people really understand it . Simply posting that guys and ass or stupid or a rip is well figure it out .

But this comment here has me truly confused I cannot see how one adds mass with more twist or grooves!
Every machine procces is removing metal . Even grooving pipe for Vic coupling is deforming metal not adding it

In fact I need proof that this is so,

An increase in the mass ok please tell me how?

" GP Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove insteadr of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures."


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Originally Posted by raubvogel View Post
baker72, I do not know if you remember but years ago someone here mentioned they knew a guy who would take a FAL put a barrel wrapped with some coating until it made it look like a horse's dong, and then it would be doing submoa. A lot of people here asked the member (dong, member) singing the praises to show some groupings after he got his done (the joke keeps on giving).

When he did get his back, he showed some pictures of the finished product but refused to show the groupings. We are not talking about a neutral party here technically, but the bloke who sang the praises of this shop. He categorically refused, saying something on the lines of "if you want to post grouping, have yours built by the guy and then shoot it." And weeks/months later added that "BTW, he stopped offering these services, so too bad for those who did not send their FALs to him with a wad of money!"

That kind of talk does not go well, and this feels like a bit of a variation of the same theme. Hence the need for data.

I do not know which falfiles member Anthony lives close to, but it would make sense to meet with someone at a range and do the proper 100yr/100m grouping test. Ideally with a different set of ammo but probably a box of black hills 175 would be a great start; at least that is what I used in a Remington 700 (not mine) with 1:10 twist to bore myself all the way to 1Kyd (yes that rifle was that good and I felt I was there just to reload and move the trigger). Of course each rifle likes a specific ammo, but if that rifle can deliver sub moa on the entire box of whatever, I would think GP would start to respect your friend's claims. And if we then could get some of his customers to repeat the test, well, it is hard to argue with hard data.

Here is one item that confuses me though: you said Anthony has built and delivered more than one of these sub-moa rifles, and yet I have not seen or heard of anyone bragging about them. Doesn't that strike you as odd, specially in this age of internet and smart phones and youtubes? After all, isn't bragging about their rifles similar to dick size competitions?

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Old September 04, 2017, 09:18   #69
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Question

The more I think about this statement the more I can't understand it

Just like cutting thread you have a pitch ( width ) a major and minor ID etc the lands should stay the same height no matter the rifling say 2 grove , 4 groove of 6 groove you still retaining the same major ID lands heights and minor ID depth of groove the helix angle would way different of course more like that of a reamer
I've cut square muilt start threads before in the case of the thread the nut will travel three times the distance on the shaft with one turn as it would with single start thread
Thus a bullet will spin more pre groove v distance travel down the barrel but I don't see how lands heights ( major Internal Diameter ) are reduced
if you reduce the land heights do u deepen the groove and if so where do you stop

But if that was the case and their id was reduced again this would mean less weight more mass (mat'l) is removed for the ID



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Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
OMG, reading this I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cry.



Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove instead of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures.


Strawman much? No dispute that a commercial match barrel will often shoot better than a surplus GI barrel. Does not make it sub-moa. Nor does blessing it with melonite. The .117 freebore and reduced .3085 throat is optimal for the 168-175g Federal Matchking. The detriment is that it may not like certain surplus ammo.

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Old September 04, 2017, 11:10   #70
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GP covered the basics but the advertisement says that his rifles shoot better due to improved barrel harmonics from melonite process. Yes, a 1:10 twist barrel if made to reasonable quality will stabilize a heavier bullet more consistently than a 1:11. I can buy 1:10 twist barrels from DSA in heavy profile (have two) and one is in pile to go with next batch of parts for deep salt bath treatment. My 1:10 twist shoots heavier bullets decently but does not put milsurp ammo inside of 1 MOA. It will put some of my 168 grain SMK handloads inside 1 MOA but barely.

I have built or had built dozens of rifles with melonite. Have taken four identical 18" AR 15 barrels, sent two for deep salt bath treatment and two built as shipped. The melonite barrels had to be lapped to induce a little wear to smooth out rifling before shot as well as the non treated but do not shoot better now. all shoot basically the same. Harmonics are changed by altering rigidity, torque values at different areas, changes in crowning, etc. Melonite will increase the long term accuracy but not initial accuracy of a barrel. Make sure all your machining and threading is done before you send off for melonite, I like the stuff when need durability.

These rifles may shoot MOA if enough care in parts selection and fitting is done. A 1:10 twist barrel does have mathmatical potential for better stabilization of heavier and longer projectiles that tend to shoot better. That said, a good 1:11 twist barrel with good 150 grain load can shoot 1 MOA as well. Are these barrels being sold loose? Would like to examine and build myself.

Pick up a set of tuning forks, tap and listen. Change length, mass, shape, etc and will sound different. That's harmonics. Have had barrels fluted and shot better, some shot worse with a particular load. Suggest everyone interested in barrel harmonics go buy a good used Browning A-Bolt with their BOSS system. Fiddling with the muzzle device and different loads will really help wrap your mind around practical application of altering barrel harmonics. Anyone about to build two rifles with same barrel send one off for a salt bath and see if it comes back laser accurate. Am not bashing this guys product, just the statement that melonite makes a barrel more accurate. Like cryo-treatment, can be hit or miss.
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Old September 04, 2017, 12:01   #71
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Harmonics of a barrel (or any other structure) is really about the "resonance" or the "natural frequency" of the structure.

This resonant frequency can only be changed by changing mass or stiffness. More is not necessarily better. The "change" in mass or stiffness (more or less will both move it) changes the resonant frequency to be higher or lower.

A resonant frequency must have an external excitation force and if the external excitation force frequency is near to the resonant frequency of the structure, then the structure will move (vibrate) in a significant fashion.

Barrel length, barrel thickness (OD vs. ID), barrel profile, and attachments such as muzzle devices will change the natural frequency because they change the mass and/or the stiffness.

Other factors that can change stiffness of a barrel are external factors such as a bi-pod, a bench rest, or simply "slinging up" tight.

Different bullet weights, different bullet speeds through the barrel due to powder loads, and different twist rates in rifling can all change the frequency of the excitation force acting on the barrel and may then become closer or further from the natural frequency of the barrel.

A coating on a barrel or a change in rifling does NOT make a significant change in the stiffness of the barrel or the mass. Either of those could potentially be beneficial to accuracy due to a change in the frequency of the excitation force of the bullet and are why some ammo works well in one rifle but does not do well in others.

Coatings or rifling changes will NOT make the barrel "stiffer" or notably change the harmonics of a barrel.
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Old September 04, 2017, 13:08   #72
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Here is one item that confuses me though: you said Anthony has built and delivered more than one of these sub-moa rifles, and yet I have not seen or heard of anyone bragging about them. Doesn't that strike you as odd, specially in this age of internet and smart phones and youtubes? After all, isn't bragging about their rifles similar to dick size competitions?
This is the part that intrigues me. I would love to see evidence of the sub MOA groups Croc claims. If the rifle can't deliver the goods, then Croc is engaging in false advertising for his product. As for the price, that's his call to make.
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Old September 04, 2017, 13:16   #73
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This is the part that intrigues me. I would love to see evidence of the sub MOA groups Croc claims...
I second that. Video and target pictures should settle it easily.
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Old September 04, 2017, 13:49   #74
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Yes that would be a good idea and I will suggest it to him
The real question is are people upset at his prices or his work. I don't see anyone here that actually had work done by him complaing. I'm curious at viciousness of these attacks and that every month we have a new one . . Could it be a running theme with a few members here ?

Barrel harmonic is beyond me. I've no idea what it means. Or melionite a barrel and how it will effect it. It seems to be more common now days some barrel come that way from the factory . Or you need to send the barrel to and expert to have it done. does the aveage punter on this site understand the process I doubt it , lots of shit kickers here chiming in but maybe one or two people really understand it . Simply posting that guys and ass or stupid or a rip is well figure it out .

But this comment here has me truly confused I cannot see how one adds mass with more twist or grooves!
Every machine procces is removing metal . Even grooving pipe for Vic coupling is deforming metal not adding it

In fact I need proof that this is so,

An increase in the mass ok please tell me how?

" GP Uh - no. There are lands AND grooves. Increasing the rate of twist would leave more lands in the barrel, not less, and INCREASE the mass. But whatever is increased in lands is offset by the corresponding groove. Go to a 6 groove insteadr of a 4 groove and the height of the lands decreases. Otherwise it would be a constriction and increase pressures."
I'm curious why someone who claims to have revolutionized the L1A1 into a tack driving, all singing, all dancing fcuking awesomely accurate rifle needs a sock puppet to repeat his bull shit for him. Is he unable to use the internet? Nope, his ads on GB prove his ability to use the internet to peddle his wares. Is he unable to articulate his position? Nope, even though he is a knuckle dragging Aussie, (sorry Andy ) he appears able to read the comments on this thread and respond via his chosen mouthpiece (or perhaps his alter ego??) so that isn't the problem. So why pray tell, is the much vaunted Anthony unable to register here, identify himself and defend his products in person?

I'm attacking his bull shit claims which are so outrageous as to make me think he is either unhinged or consuming some illicit substances. He talks smack and admits (I think but its difficult to discern which comments belong to him or baker72) he doesn't understand things that some of us were taught by experts at really expensive schools. I was first exposed to QPQ/Nitride/Melonite at LWRC about a decade ago when the VP Engineering brought it to the factory as a possible substitute for chrome plating barrels. It was less expensive than chrome, had the added advantage of being able to provide an exterior finish instead of that being a secondary operation, had the possibility of being a better bore treatment than chrome, offered a faster turn around than chrome and may be more lubricious than chrome.

We did some testing and found many of the claims to be true so the decision was made to have LWRC barrels nitrided except for those contracts that demanded chrome plating. So it continues to this day. Never, in all the information released by any of the folks who nitride barrels have I EVER seen any claims that the process stiffens barrels. It's absolute bollocks and nonsense.

As is this claim about the rifling twist altering the stiffness of the barrel. Unless Anthony has managed to reinvent the rules of engineering, what increases the stiffness (or resistance to bending stresses)of a barrel is cross sectional diameter. PERIOD. Don't believe me?

Quote:
What about "fluting" a barrel?
Fluting is a service we neither offer nor recommend. If you have a Shilen barrel fluted, the warranty is void. Fluting a barrel can induce unrecoverable stresses that will encourage warping when heated and can also swell the bore dimensions, causing loose spots in the bore. A solid (un-fluted) barrel is more rigid than a fluted barrel of equal diameter. A fluted barrel is more rigid than a solid barrel of equal weight. All rifle barrels flex when fired. Accuracy requires that they simply flex the same and return the same each time they are fired, hence the requirement for a pillar bedded action and free floating barrel.
Many folks here have spent a LOT of time and money trying to build a FAL pattern rifle that will reliably shoot 1MOA but Anthony claims to have achieved it simply by a 1-10 twist barrel, nitride and a match chamber. No mention of how he solved the issues of bolt tilt, receiver flex, or any one of a number of other problems getting in the way of a 1 MOA FAL.

I started this shit and I'm willing to finish it. I'm on vacation from 9/25 thru 10/12. I live in NM and if your man Anthony wants to pony up to a mutually acceptable range with one of his rifles and his choice of ammo, I'll be a witness to what the rifle can do in his hands. I can arrange access to the ZIA rifle and pistol range or can meet him at the Albuquerque City range and several other FAL Files members might be available too. If it will truly shoot 1MOA or less with his choice of ammo on a repeatable basis, I will gladly take photographs, post same and apologize.

If it doesn't? Well, I'll leave it up to the FAL Files crew to decide his fate...
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Old September 04, 2017, 14:14   #75
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Meloniting of L1A1 barrels;
As you can read from previous posters meloniting is not well understood and their results have been varied. Meloniting is an art as there are a few variables that can be adjusted to change the overall result, these are time and temperature.
Our barrels are the Pat Jones L1A1 barrels 1/10 twist with a modified chamber cut for use with 175 gr ammunition. These Pat Jones L1A1 barrels were excellent barrels pre meloniting but after meloniting the combination of F1 Flash Hider and melonited barrel just kept producing excellent results with our L1A1s. In the L1A1 platform we wanted the enhanced wear and corrosion resistance and ended up getting an improvement in accuracy with the F1 Flash Hider, The F1 Flash Hider which as mentioned by Skennerton did nothing for accuracy when first produced.
I think that some people also have an expectation of dramatic results and miss the subtle signs of improvement. When I say our barrels have a different barrel harmonic its a subtle difference that is just enough to make the F1 Flash hider really work well on the barrel. Its a combination of the twist rate and the meloniting. The barrel is more rigid but that is not noticeable to the touch and can only be measured. Having a 58 Rc to 60 Rc surface hardness thats just a few thousandths deep changes the barrel in several subtle ways, At first you may not notice any difference since you are not actually correctly testing to find the enhanced characteristics.
Generally wear resistance can only be appreciated over the long term,
Corrosion resistance may not be noticeable to most people but there are test procedures as used by Crane NSW to determine corrosion resistance.
Stress relief of the barrel and the added benefit to accuracy can only be realized fully by proper testing with uniform ammunition. Comparing two identical barrels one being melonited and one not would seem a good place to start but then the variables of weapon platform come into play and last but not least the shooters skill is of the utmost importance when looking for positive results.
If your shooting skill is not up to Sub MOA then dont expect the gun to do anything better with your capabilities. You cannot expect mil surp ammo to produce Sub MOA shots, some will but most of it wont. You must use something good like like Hornady TAP, Lapua etc. We all have our favorite ammo and as mentioned in other postings some rifles seem to like a particular brand of ammo.
It also should be mentioned that Meloniting brings different improvements to different rifles since some enhancements show up more on gas guns than say bolt rifles. When you divide gas guns into their groups lets say AR styles and then M14s and L1A1s they all benefit in some similar and some differing ways from meloniting.
Smith Enterprises of Tempe AZ have been meloniting their M14 Crazy Horse Barrels for well over 10 years now with considerable positive results. They produce one of the finest modernized M14 builds available. In the M14 platform Smith Ent uses it to stop barrel stretch and provide enhanced wear and corrosion resistance. Stress relief was found to be an added bonus of the process.

In an AR platform meloniting is used mainly as an alternative to chrome lining.
If there is anyone who wants a melonited barrel we can provide those, they are expensive as there is a lot of work that has to be done to each barrel. For instance the gas block has to be fitted first and then removed prior to meloniting, a lot of extra work but we have found it worthwhile.
Palmetto State Armory, Franklin Armory and Criterion Barrels are all selling melonited barrels for the AR platform.
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Old September 04, 2017, 14:47   #76
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How many of Pat's barrels do you have, and what is the price for one?
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Old September 04, 2017, 15:05   #77
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Hi, we have a few they are all melonited.
Should have some more shortly.
Best to call the shop when you have time.
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Old September 04, 2017, 15:35   #78
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So,is ANT W the guy selling that rifle?
"Our barrels are the Pat Jones L1A1 barrels 1/10 twist with a modified chamber cut for use with 175 gr ammunition."

Might be mistaken,but I thought the barrels was listed as a 1-12?
I really doubt meloniting is an "art form". Its a process....a repeatable process. What one man can do,another can do.

Ah.I see..the originals were 1-12...
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Old September 04, 2017, 15:40   #79
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I do believe I posted that "this is from Anthony " in those post ,pretty simple mate

you really need to have beer ,like I said I posted his response to u lot why cause I'm tried of seeing this every month or so its like you lot are on a cycle

posting this is from" Anthony" reading is tough for pommys I know

I'm in ca if you want to meet me we can arrange it .

lol if u think I'm Anthony hahahaha you really are a silly I love this, to funny yes yes you have it I've been hiding here all this time just waiting to pop up.

Why don't you just call him and set up your date. I mean you were going to drive to his shop before why don't just do that ?

cough pommy cough poor inbreed bastards with the best teeths

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Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
I'm curious why someone who claims to have revolutionized the L1A1 into a tack driving, all singing, all dancing fcuking awesomely accurate rifle needs a sock puppet to repeat his bull shit for him. Is he unable to use the internet? Nope, his ads on GB prove his ability to use the internet to peddle his wares. Is he unable to articulate his position? Nope, even though he is a knuckle dragging Aussie, (sorry Andy ) he appears able to read the comments on this thread and respond via his chosen mouthpiece (or perhaps his alter ego??) so that isn't the problem. So why pray tell, is the much vaunted Anthony unable to register here, identify himself and defend his products in person?

I'm attacking his bull shit claims which are so outrageous as to make me think he is either unhinged or consuming some illicit substances. He talks smack and admits (I think but its difficult to discern which comments belong to him or baker72) he doesn't understand things that some of us were taught by experts at really expensive schools. I was first exposed to QPQ/Nitride/Melonite at LWRC about a decade ago when the VP Engineering brought it to the factory as a possible substitute for chrome plating barrels. It was less expensive than chrome, had the added advantage of being able to provide an exterior finish instead of that being a secondary operation, had the possibility of being a better bore treatment than chrome, offered a faster turn around than chrome and may be more lubricious than chrome.

We did some testing and found many of the claims to be true so the decision was made to have LWRC barrels nitrided except for those contracts that demanded chrome plating. So it continues to this day. Never, in all the information released by any of the folks who nitride barrels have I EVER seen any claims that the process stiffens barrels. It's absolute bollocks and nonsense.

As is this claim about the rifling twist altering the stiffness of the barrel. Unless Anthony has managed to reinvent the rules of engineering, what increases the stiffness (or resistance to bending stresses)of a barrel is cross sectional diameter. PERIOD. Don't believe me?



Many folks here have spent a LOT of time and money trying to build a FAL pattern rifle that will reliably shoot 1MOA but Anthony claims to have achieved it simply by a 1-10 twist barrel, nitride and a match chamber. No mention of how he solved the issues of bolt tilt, receiver flex, or any one of a number of other problems getting in the way of a 1 MOA FAL.

I started this shit and I'm willing to finish it. I'm on vacation from 9/25 thru 10/12. I live in NM and if your man Anthony wants to pony up to a mutually acceptable range with one of his rifles and his choice of ammo, I'll be a witness to what the rifle can do in his hands. I can arrange access to the ZIA rifle and pistol range or can meet him at the Albuquerque City range and several other FAL Files members might be available too. If it will truly shoot 1MOA or less with his choice of ammo on a repeatable basis, I will gladly take photographs, post same and apologize.

If it doesn't? Well, I'll leave it up to the FAL Files crew to decide his fate...

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Old September 04, 2017, 16:18   #80
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Meloniting is a coating that reduces friction and is easier to clean plus protecting the metal nothing more nothing less, to claim that it "stiffens" it is bullsh*t
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Old September 04, 2017, 16:39   #81
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Pat claimed his barrels were sub moa capable. Best I could get out mine was around 2-2.5" with milsurp. Never tried match ammo.
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Old September 04, 2017, 17:51   #82
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Yes Pat did claim they were Sub MOA and once I tried them I sold off all of my Aussie NIW barrels. These are excellent barrels, then with a 60 Rc skin they perform even better.
We have been very happy with them. No complaints from any of the customers the only complaints are from people who don't own one and have never shot one.
We cut our chambers for Mil 118LR which just a bit longer in the throat than Match M852
Also the Aussie headspace spec is 1.6325 so the closer you can get to that the better, some of the rifles we see have headspaces out at 1.638.
Do you know where yours is at?
The other problem is not having your barrel tight enough which is way more common than you would think.
Croc.

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Old September 04, 2017, 19:59   #83
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Originally Posted by Ant W View Post
Yes Pat did claim they were Sub MOA and once I tried them I sold off all of my Aussie NIW barrels. These are excellent barrels, then with a 60 Rc skin they perform even better.
We have been very happy with them. No complaints from any of the customers the only complaints are from people who don't own one and have never shot one.
We cut our chambers for Mil 118LR which just a bit longer in the throat than Match M852
Also the Aussie headspace spec is 1.6325 so the closer you can get to that the better, some of the rifles we see have headspaces out at 1.638.
Do you know where yours is at?
The other problem is not having your barrel tight enough which is way more common than you would think.
Croc.
I set my headspace to around 1.630. I was happy with the results I got initially which were on par with other inch barrels so I never tried any match ammo. What ammunition are you using to get sub moa?
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Old September 04, 2017, 21:27   #84
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We have been very happy with them. No complaints from any of the customers the only complaints are from people who don't own one and have never shot one.
Croc, that is the crux of the problem and source of frustration here: we do not have access to the data -- groupings -- you have. So, you are asking people to have faith, and I am not that good with that myself; data points I can handle.

At this point in time I will leave the technical discussions to the boffins and other experts. For all I care your rifles might distort the time-space continuum and call upon their fairy godmother. All I want is the equivalent of an unbiased logbook data session. the gman offered to participate in the event. I can't go but would gladly buy a box of the ammo of your choice.
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Old September 04, 2017, 22:03   #85
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I'm not sure anybody is complaining...they just want to see where the rubber meets the road...
The Enterprise receiver would be the deal-killer for me. Some supposedly run.
I wouldn't build on one. Are they still in business?Oh wait...I heard some arrogant guy in Arizona territory bought all their stuff....
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Old September 04, 2017, 22:15   #86
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this guy is claiming because he lived in the same town as the gun factory he is an expert, well shit,I lived in vegas, I don't know shite about gambling. he claims to have used L1A1s since he was a kid? in NSW it was not legal to own a pistol grip firearm from the mid 70s, you could buy them in Qld, Tasmania, and with an exemption in Vic. you could not get a shooters licence till you were 18. the government stopped selling L1A1s to civilians in the mid 1980s unless you were in Tasmania or QLD. and of course after 96 they were pretty much all gone.. calling bullshit on most of his claims...

Crocs Gunshop specializes in the Aussie L1A1 & L2A1 Rifles.
Why, because Croc is an Aussie and has been using the Aussie SLR (L1A1) since he was a kid.
Have your Aussie rifle correctly assembled and tested by an Aussie.
Years of experience with the Aussie SLR make our knowledge of the weapon better than most.
Not only can we breach your barrel properly, we know how to time and install your flash hider so that it stays put. None of this Loctite nonsense that other gunsmiths or home jobs do.
Croc uses the Lithgow specs to assemble your rifle.
Having lived in Lithgow NSW for a time, the L1A1 is not the only rifle that Croc can work on for you.
Do you have a No1 Mk3 Lithgow, we can fix it for you, no problems. Out of headspace, need a new buttstock. Crocs has many parts for these fine old rifles.
As much as it goes against the grain for an Aussie, Croc can repair your British gear as well, Enfield, BSA, you name it we can fix it.
Call anytime to discuss your problem with your rifle.
1-505-757-3461, Ask for Croc.
Crocs is offering to Barrel and headspace your L1A1 rifle for $150.00.
Locking shoulders and breeching washers are not included in this price.
Locking shoulders are $25 each.
Breeching washers are $25 each.
Flash Hider washers are $15 each plus installation.
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Old September 04, 2017, 23:53   #87
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Originally Posted by Ant W View Post
Yes Pat did claim they were Sub MOA and once I tried them I sold off all of my Aussie NIW barrels. These are excellent barrels, then with a 60 Rc skin they perform even better.
We have been very happy with them. No complaints from any of the customers the only complaints are from people who don't own one and have never shot one.
We cut our chambers for Mil 118LR which just a bit longer in the throat than Match M852
Also the Aussie headspace spec is 1.6325 so the closer you can get to that the better, some of the rifles we see have headspaces out at 1.638.
Do you know where yours is at?
The other problem is not having your barrel tight enough which is way more common than you would think.
Croc.
So are you ready to put your money (rifle) where your mouth is? I'm on holiday for 3 weeks on the dates I mentioned before chum so where would you like to meet to prove just how good your barrels/builds are? Given you plenty of notice so shouldn't be an issue right? You're gonna be doing the shooting so bring your favourite ammo and you can finally demo your gats to prove how good they are...
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Old September 05, 2017, 00:46   #88
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this guy is claiming because he lived in the same town as the gun factory he is an expert, well shit,I lived in vegas, I don't know shite about gambling. he claims to have used L1A1s since he was a kid? in NSW it was not legal to own a pistol grip firearm from the mid 70s, you could buy them in Qld, Tasmania, and with an exemption in Vic. you could not get a shooters licence till you were 18. the government stopped selling L1A1s to civilians in the mid 1980s unless you were in Tasmania or QLD. and of course after 96 they were pretty much all gone.. calling bullshit on most of his claims...
....... don't forget Dave that till 96 if you were a member of the rifle association and a service rifle shooter you had exemption from the state law courtesy of the Defence Act. The list of approved rifles was LONG and distinguised but specifically included SLRs, FALs, M14s, AR15s and even Valmets. I had and shot all of them on the line here in Sydney till 96. A mate got a visit from Police over his AR15 and it was seized but returned within 48hrs once the little known exemption was explored.
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Old September 05, 2017, 05:24   #89
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If someone wanted a sub-moa rifle iin 308 wouldn't it be cheaper to get a tricked out AR10 than this kit built fal rifle?
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Old September 05, 2017, 06:44   #90
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Originally Posted by aussiedave View Post
in NSW it was not legal to own a pistol grip firearm from the mid 70s, you could buy them in Qld, Tasmania, and with an exemption in Vic. you could not get a shooters licence till you were 18. the government stopped selling L1A1s to civilians in the mid 1980s unless you were in Tasmania or QLD. and of course after 96 they were pretty much all gone.. calling bullshit on most of his claims...
.
that is not true. in NSW you could buy a gun directly from the lithgow factory as long as you were in a rifle club that was formed under the defense act and affiliated with the NSWRA. I did and had several SLR's as well as AR15's and AAA's and an AR10. All you had to do to own what you want was to join the club and shoot and attend a meeting 1x a year. Most country rifle clubs were formed under the defense act.
So calling bullshit based on the fact that you dont know the facts makes your claim of bullshit bullshit.
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Old September 05, 2017, 08:17   #91
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Originally Posted by Ant W View Post
Yes Pat did claim they were Sub MOA and once I tried them I sold off all of my Aussie NIW barrels. These are excellent barrels, then with a 60 Rc skin they perform even better.
We have been very happy with them. No complaints from any of the customers the only complaints are from people who don't own one and have never shot one.
We cut our chambers for Mil 118LR which just a bit longer in the throat than Match M852
Also the Aussie headspace spec is 1.6325 so the closer you can get to that the better, some of the rifles we see have headspaces out at 1.638.
Do you know where yours is at?
The other problem is not having your barrel tight enough which is way more common than you would think.
Croc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the gman View Post
So are you ready to put your money (rifle) where your mouth is? I'm on holiday for 3 weeks on the dates I mentioned before chum so where would you like to meet to prove just how good your barrels/builds are? Given you plenty of notice so shouldn't be an issue right? You're gonna be doing the shooting so bring your favourite ammo and you can finally demo your gats to prove how good they are...
Well here's your chance Ant to prove how well your builds shoot. I'd just meet up and do some shooting, heck if your builds shoot that good you'd probably have a few folks lined up to purchase one.
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Old September 05, 2017, 09:43   #92
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Well here's your chance Ant to prove how well your builds shoot. I'd just meet up and do some shooting, heck if your builds shoot that good you'd probably have a few folks lined up to purchase one.
You know that a lot of building a rifle is art, but the vast majority is science. None of it is Voodoo. I'm not seeing the science behind the build.

I think the statements in the ad about no one else understanding how this all works, so don't ask other builders about this - vast paraphrasing here - kind of pissed everyone off.

It would be great if the builder would get with one of the forum members and have a live shoot with the conditions being documented. The offer is out there, let's see where this all goes.

If it shoots like claimed I'd likely buy one.

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Old September 05, 2017, 09:52   #93
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(Trim)
he doesn't understand things that some of us were taught by experts at really expensive schools. I was first exposed to QPQ/Nitride/Melonite at LWRC about a decade ago when the VP Engineering brought it to the factory as a possible substitute for chrome plating barrels. It was less expensive than chrome, had the added advantage of being able to provide an exterior finish instead of that being a secondary operation, had the possibility of being a better bore treatment than chrome, offered a faster turn around than chrome and may be more lubricious than chrome.

We did some testing and found many of the claims to be true so the decision was made to have LWRC barrels nitrided except for those contracts that demanded chrome plating. So it continues to this day. Never, in all the information released by any of the folks who nitride barrels have I EVER seen any claims that the process stiffens barrels. It's absolute bollocks and nonsense.

As is this claim about the rifling twist altering the stiffness of the barrel. Unless Anthony has managed to reinvent the rules of engineering, what increases the stiffness (or resistance to bending stresses)of a barrel is cross sectional diameter. PERIOD. Don't believe me?

Quote:
(From Shilen website would assume)
What about "fluting" a barrel?
Fluting is a service we neither offer nor recommend. If you have a Shilen barrel fluted, the warranty is void. Fluting a barrel can induce unrecoverable stresses that will encourage warping when heated and can also swell the bore dimensions, causing loose spots in the bore. A solid (un-fluted) barrel is more rigid than a fluted barrel of equal diameter. A fluted barrel is more rigid than a solid barrel of equal weight. All rifle barrels flex when fired. Accuracy requires that they simply flex the same and return the same each time they are fired, hence the requirement for a pillar bedded action and free floating barrel.
Many folks here have spent a LOT of time and money trying to build a FAL pattern rifle that will reliably shoot 1MOA but Anthony claims to have achieved it simply by a 1-10 twist barrel, nitride and a match chamber. No mention of how he solved the issues of bolt tilt, receiver flex, or any one of a number of other problems getting in the way of a 1 MOA FAL.

[B]I started this shit and I'm willing to finish it. I'm on vacation from 9/25 thru 10/12. I live in NM and if your man Anthony wants to pony up to a mutually acceptable range with one of his rifles and his choice of ammo, I'll be a witness...
My money is on G-man and suggest that this challenge is done with three examples. I have two rifles that on the right day with the right ammo will dance in the 1 MOA range. The hardest part was fitting an LTR dust cover snug enough to hold an optic stable for my aging eyes. With irons I will usually drop at least one shot out of five. One rifle is a DSA SPR with their set trigger I bashed until GP said it had redeeming qualities and one appeared on LGS shelf. It will only shoot true 1 MOA about one out of three tries using a handload tweaked down to a full week of trying different seating depths till found proper bullet ogive to rifling offset, not considering testing bullets and powders with a lot of ladder tests till got powder/projectile selection and then was a lot of tweaking how much shoulder setback and OAL. Other rifle is an L1a1 purchased from very nice gentleman here who said due to age was selling off his premium collection. Same as DSA rifle had to try several LTR equipped dust covers for best fit to hold glass in place and using military match ammunition it will drop a 1 MOA group out of every three tries and I really don't like taking it out of vault often for fear of messing up nicest finish have ever had on any personal FAL type rifle. Here is the real trick, only way I can do this is single loading each round from the top, if shoot from magazine between bullet tip distortion and bolt tilt being more random they both open up.

Bring three rifles with commonly available ammunition or handload recipe willing to publish and if the three shoot 1 MOA I will buy one of them. Prove you can consistently build 1 MOA FAL's and might send a couple kits haven't assembled yet.

G-man,
Your quote from Shilen is partially true but my guess is mostly corporate covering their @$$ as hard to be sure quality of work done by myriad of smiths and machinists across the country. Have several barrels that started as Shilen blanks with final profiling done by well known and respected barrel supplier that have been fluted and shoot sub MOA and a few down in the 1/2 MOA consistent and sub half MOA on good days or when some of my competitive bench rest friends sit behind them. Like cryofreezing, have sent barrels off for a dip in the fridge and most shoot more consistently but not necessarily more accurately until other changes are made. I like melonite because a barrel will give me roughly 50% or more service life. If there is any burr or inconsistency in bore then have to lap a melonite barrel as just a few standard rounds down bore will not smooth a hardened flaw.

That said my custom throat burning 7mm Practicals, 22-250 Ackley Improved and similar turn bolts are built on unmolested barrels that have some proprietary aftermarket finish. Will get my 700 to 1,000 rounds, lap throat for another few hundred then send for replacement. Last thing wanted to do with my almost $600 Noveske 18" Swtchblock SPR AR barrel was send it off for freezing or boiling. No way will risk a $600 barrel with a process not controlled and warrantied by company that sold it to me. If well reputed vendor sells me a fluted Shilen barrel guaranteed to shoot sub MOA flutes influence is on them and yet to be let down.

So I hope this crocodile character shows up and proves he can sit three FAL's on bench, (Do not care if he has to get David Tubbs to run them) and all shoot 1 MOA from magazine as will buy two more than likely. Need an inch and metric tack driver for the range unless he doesnt understand metric system or SAE, always get confused as to which kind of math they use Down Under and my adopted son lives there... I really hope this reptile that resembles an American alligator claims are 100% true and has found a way to supply consistent 1 MOA FAL's. Of course if buy one, it doesn't shoot MOA and he says "you just have to learn how to shoot it" as his advertisement says will likely loose my mind because if it doesn't shoot MOA for me will put a 1,000 yard bench rest record holder and at least on Army trained Scout Sniper behind it before blame the rifle. Learned that sometimes have to bring in a "ringer" and don't want this test flawed by one rifle that's a "ringer".
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Old September 05, 2017, 09:52   #94
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Reply to Aussie Dave,
I grew up in the time before the gun ban.
I'm 60 now so do the math. I'm talking of a time when we still had gun stores and semi autos were normal.
You may not remember it as your recollection of OZ is a post ban one but we had a program at schools called cadets. Our school had an armory as most schools did back then. We had a couple of racks of .303's about 4-5 SLR's and a couple of Brens in transit cases. All of them worked they weren't demilled. Some of our .303 rifles were DP marked.
There are not that many people left living up in Lithgow who worked at the factory to talk with anymore but you can learn a lot talking to Aussies that were involved in it.
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Old September 05, 2017, 10:08   #95
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Originally Posted by the gman View Post
So are you ready to put your money (rifle) where your mouth is? I'm on holiday for 3 weeks on the dates I mentioned before chum so where would you like to meet to prove just how good your barrels/builds are? Given you plenty of notice so shouldn't be an issue right? You're gonna be doing the shooting so bring your favourite ammo and you can finally demo your gats to prove how good they are...
I'm curious to see a sub-moa FAL in action also. We have a shooting range in Los Lunas as well. I'm fairly flexible on dates and times as well.

I will donate for ammo costs if that is an issue.
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Old September 05, 2017, 10:27   #96
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Well alrighty! It seems that all our ducks are in a row now, with more than one offer for a demonstration. Let the shooting begin!
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Old September 05, 2017, 10:38   #97
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Now Mark, I have to tell you, my melonited/QPQ's/SBN'd (whatever the %#@ you wish to refer to it as, QPQ'd in my case) rifle and barrel absolutely shoot about .6moa. I had the rifle built, and all parts other than the springs QPQ'd. It is far and away the most accurate rifle I own, and the nitriding made even the factory trigger butter smooth, and the barrel is stupid-easy to clean. After near a 1000 rounds the chamber looks almost factory new. SBN is a fantastic thing to do to steels, be it carbon or stainless.

This might be the time to mention that it's a Remmy 700 that had the barrel broken in BEFORE nitriding, was a custom build, in a free-floated and pillar bedded stock, and it's a .270WSM. If SHTF this is what I hold them off at 1000+ yds with.

Applying any of that to a FAL however, other than the cleaning and barrel/chamber wear, is a load of horse$#!+ of the highest order, and GB should have a place where actual experts in harmonics or metallurgy or particular platfoms (yeah, I said it, GTFO yourselves) can chime in. Ultimately it is "caveat emptor," but it would be best if the buyer had a single place to find all claims verifiable.

Edit: And am I the one seeing the "barrel sleeve" all over again???
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Old September 05, 2017, 11:01   #98
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The Melonite process - as I understand is a hardening process that affects the molecular structure of the metal, that creates an outer layer of modified grain structure that is harder than the original metal. My experience of melonite barrels, is mostly shooting them but a little experience of drilling them (gashole). Both barrels were from the same vender, both were 4150 - both were melonited. However one was significantly harder than the other - how do I know, by drilling! With one it was easy, the second I broke 3 drills in the process - indicating that one of the barrels was significantly harder. So if the metal is the same, hardness is decided by the process of meloniting, and the quality of the process employed - I know this is not a reliable deduction but an indicator of some sort, a clue empirical.
Barrels, are essentially like donuts, having only an outside. So if the hardening process is an exterior treatment I would deuce that a layer of the metal is hardened, which by my logic would - create a stiffening of the barrel in the hardened layer - the inner metal being unaffected by the meloniting process.
So how much of what i say actually effects accuracy I do not know. Tho' I do believe 'it' to be superior to chrome lined ordinance metaled barrels but is dependent on the quality of the meloniting process. That hardened layer I would presume is where the 'stiffness' comes from - and likely would effect the harmonic characteristics of the barrel! But what do I know!?
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Old September 05, 2017, 11:41   #99
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Entreprise Arms Receivers.
This is a reply to the comment about the Entreprise receiver being a deal killer.
I bought my first Entreprise Arms Inc. Buena Park receivers back when Clinton was President. As a matter of a fact I still the original receipt for one of them. On that receipt it specifically states "Forged Match Grade". Any one who wants a redacted pdf copy of the invoice can ask me via email at crocodile@newmexico.com for a copy.
Entreprise Arms was started by two brothers Walter & Howard. In the 80's they were making these receivers as stated "Forged Match Grade". I have found them to be the best and most faithful reproduction of an Aussie Cut receiver. They have always headspaced within the locking shoulder range and barrels have timed using std washers. I have had many receivers with tight carrier raceways and a few tail hooks that needed to be fitted. You have to install your ejector blocks so its a good time to do nice job on the pins so that they don't show. All of these receivers have "SPORTER" on the left side. Their address can be either Buena Park, CA. or Irwindale, CA., if they say SPORTER then they are the good ones. In recent years Entreprise made L1A1 receivers again all marked Irwindale, CA. I have not been happy with these later productions, so I stick to the SPORTERS as they produce less problems and work fine as well as look good. The only real damage to the SPORTERS that we see today is enlarged locking shoulder holes that won't take any series of locking shoulder tight enough. If you have one of these don't worry send to us and we'll fix it for you.
I have built on ARMSCORP, EDEN, ONYX, DSA, COONAN, IMBEL, CENTURY and others I can't remember.
DSA is really good the only issue I ever had was the tight headspace issue that needed special ground locking shoulders. COONAN went together without a hitch, IMBEL is great, CENTURY varies by where its made and have more than their fair share of problems.
Of these only ARMSCORP, EDEN, ONYX Entreprise and IMBEL are forged, the rest are investment cast except for the a few CENTURY receivers that are clearly marked made by IMBEL. There are a few POYERS and some ENFIELD/BSA receivers out there which are forged as well but you don't see them as receivers very often as they are usually seen as complete weapons.
Then there is Lithgow's Military receiver.
I have been writing to the BATFE for years and have many letter rulings and explanations from in regards the FAL/L1A1 rifles.
It should be noted at this time that there are very limited numbers of Aussie Sear Cut receivers here in country. These are all from foreign military sales of surplus weapons, that's why they are military receivers. I think the importation paperwork was for a semi auto only which as they were in most cases produced that way from the factory. These would all have be imported prior to the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act. The 1968 Gun Control Act changed the status of the SEMI AUTO LITHGOW PRODUCED MILITARY RIFLE and all other sear cut receivers to a Machinegun since the sear cut version is so readily converted to a machinegun. None have been legally imported since the 1968 Act. under their new classification, there are only 1,848 FAL type sear cut receivers legally allowed in the country as non registerable Semi Auto rifles. These were all produced by Browning.
With the status change brought about by the 1968 GCA a sear cut receiver rifle that was built as a semi auto now had to be registered as a machinegun with the NFA Branch. Only the 1,848 Browning's were exempt. As is so common today most everyone hasn't got a clue about what the law says any more and after 1968 all that most people understood was that you had to register a machinegun not a semi auto rifle. The status change went unnoticed by most people. LEO only sales account for most of these sear cut rifles as that was allowable at the time but once the LEO decided to sell their personal firearm it usually became a civilian possession. The BATFE's position is that these are unregistered machine guns. Although there is some case law where a guy got let off but his had an altered sear welded into place making it far more difficult to "READILY"convert. Here is their final word on the subject.
"Any FAL-type firearm incorporating the frame or receiver of a machinegun having been neither exempted nor legally registered before (1986 Act) F.O.P.A enactment, is contraband and, as such may not be legally possessed or transferred.
With the court case deciding in favor of the Defendant any L1A1 with a sear cut could fall outside of the BATFE reach only if the difficulty of making it a machinegun was obvious (say the inclusion of a semi auto ejector block with welded cross pins or blind pinned cross pins or a welded insert) These grey area guns are now bringing a premium today regardless of condition but excellent examples will be selling north of $8 or $9K.
That makes these the most highly prized possessions due to their origin and rarity.
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Old September 05, 2017, 11:52   #100
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Thanks TRYPCIL,
That's been our experience and you can read by so many of the negative posters that they have never even owned a melonited barrel much less shot one. Your experience with the drills shows us why I call meloniting an Art form. There are good and bad heat treaters and with barrels its critical that the heat treatment be done properly. There is a lot of fine tuning that gets done by those who use it therefore I call it an Art. You don't just look it up in a book all the time temp variables. And Yes, its that hardened layer that adds stiffness to the barrel. One of your barrels was either undercooked or the other was over cooked to produce your drilling results. Thanks for commenting its a breath of sanity amongst lot of foolish and name calling posters.
Regards Croc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trypcil View Post
The Melonite process - as I understand is a hardening process that affects the molecular structure of the metal, that creates an outer layer of modified grain structure that is harder than the original metal. My experience of melonite barrels, is mostly shooting them but a little experience of drilling them (gashole). Both barrels were from the same vender, both were 4150 - both were melonited. However one was significantly harder than the other - how do I know, by drilling! With one it was easy, the second I broke 3 drills in the process - indicating that one of the barrels was significantly harder. So if the metal is the same, hardness is decided by the process of meloniting, and the quality of the process employed - I know this is not a reliable deduction but an indicator of some sort, a clue empirical.
Barrels, are essentially like donuts, having only an outside. So if the hardening process is an exterior treatment I would deuce that a layer of the metal is hardened, which by my logic would - create a stiffening of the barrel in the hardened layer - the inner metal being unaffected by the meloniting process.
So how much of what i say actually effects accuracy I do not know. Tho' I do believe 'it' to be superior to chrome lined ordinance metaled barrels but is dependent on the quality of the meloniting process. That hardened layer I would presume is where the 'stiffness' comes from - and likely would effect the harmonic characteristics of the barrel! But what do I know!?
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