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Old September 13, 2017, 13:43   #1
alnukem
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Where did Century buy the Law Enforcement Only L1A1's From???

Hi.....first post! I am a FFL/SOT & always wanted a "Real" L1A1. I found a "Post Sample" one & committed to buy it. The company I purchased it from then offered thier last one for a really good deal & I committed to it also. They are both BSA's, one 1962 & one 1963, I assumed that they were RTF'd because of the synthetic furniture & the misc dates on the parts. Did Century buy these directly off the UK DOD? When did they go into reserve status & when did they sell them off? Thanks!
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Old September 13, 2017, 16:27   #2
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Here's the photos they sent me.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1991[1] small.jpg (113.9 KB, 176 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1992[1] small.jpg (98.9 KB, 120 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1995[1] small.jpg (97.8 KB, 113 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_1996[1] (1) small.jpg (104.4 KB, 114 views)
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Old September 13, 2017, 16:53   #3
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CAI bought every L1A1 & 1A1 they could find, including all the parts they could find. They then screwed them together and sold them as LEO rifles. They could do that during the AWB because L1A1's were only ever made as semi automatics. There were some that are matching, but those are few and far between.
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Old September 13, 2017, 17:22   #4
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So, What you're saying is......these were not complete guns when imported to Canada?

The U.S. Government always considered L1A1 machineguns.
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Old September 13, 2017, 19:03   #5
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The U.S. Government always considered L1A1 machineguns.

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Old September 13, 2017, 19:17   #6
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Did I say something wrong? I was talking about sear cut Commonwealth guns. Sorry if I missed something, I haven't been on here since 04 or 05.
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Old September 13, 2017, 19:29   #7
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Originally Posted by alnukem View Post
Hi.....first post! I am a FFL/SOT & always wanted a "Real" L1A1. I found a "Post Sample" one & committed to buy it. The company I purchased it from then offered thier last one for a really good deal & I committed to it also. They are both BSA's, one 1962 & one 1963, I assumed that they were RTF'd because of the synthetic furniture & the misc dates on the parts. Did Century buy these directly off the UK DOD? When did they go into reserve status & when did they sell them off? Thanks!
For years Century published a "Law Enforcement only" sales catalog.
These were available to Police Departments, and some editions were available on-line.
I do not know if they still do this catalog.
I don't know when it changed, but they used to be able to sell imported machine guns from the C&R list directly to departments.
The old editions of the catalog had Browning 1919's, Browning M2HB's, all sorts of AK's, German MG34's & 42's, Yugo M53's, FAL's, L1A1's.. pretty much all the same guns that they thru the years offered to civilians as parts kits.
Now, there are no more C&R's to PD's just modern MG's.
The SLC PD armorer had told me they were offered select fire Chinese M14's about the same time as the British L1A1's.
That was in the 1990-1992 time frame (I think).
I have spoken to the (now retired) gent who for many years managed this L-E sales program for Century Arms.
PD's could also purchase ammo that could not be sold to civilians.
Everything (including the transfers) was done in accordance with the ATF regulations that control the sales of this material to Police Departments.

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Old September 13, 2017, 19:44   #8
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Originally Posted by alnukem View Post
Hi.....first post! I am a FFL/SOT & always wanted a "Real" L1A1. I found a "Post Sample" one & committed to buy it. The company I purchased it from then offered thier last one for a really good deal & I committed to it also. They are both BSA's, one 1962 & one 1963, I assumed that they were RTF'd because of the synthetic furniture & the misc dates on the parts. Did Century buy these directly off the UK DOD? When did they go into reserve status & when did they sell them off? Thanks!
I'm also an 07FFL/SOT and I would be very interested in purchasing one of them from you if you would consider it? I can easily get the law letter so no worries there. You can reach me at thegman1763@gmail.com if you'd like to discuss it further, thanks.
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Old September 13, 2017, 20:42   #9
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I'm also an 07FFL/SOT and I would be very interested in purchasing one of them from you if you would consider it? I can easily get the law letter so no worries there. You can reach me at thegman1763@gmail.com if you'd like to discuss it further, thanks.
I will keep it in mind, but I am probably inclined to keep both of them....we'll see. I also have an interest in pre or post G3, M14, AK74, HK33 & MP5 at the right price. I'll PM some stuff to you.
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Old September 18, 2017, 09:11   #10
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What makes these particular Century LEO rifles "post sample"? Century L1A1 LEO rifles were transferred directly to individual police officers, and are and always have been semi-auto only rifles.
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Old September 18, 2017, 19:50   #11
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Likely because they would be sear cut receivers. Doesnt matter if the selector is semi only or not. Sear cut is sear cut.
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Old September 18, 2017, 21:34   #12
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Likely because they would be sear cut receivers. Doesnt matter if the selector is semi only or not. Sear cut is sear cut.
Wrong. That topic has been discussed ad nauseam on this board. CAI LEO rifles were available to be sold and transferred directly to individual officers.

So my question remains, what makes these 2 rifles being discussed "post sample"?
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Old September 18, 2017, 23:55   #13
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Wrong. That topic has been discussed ad nauseam on this board. CAI LEO rifles were available to be sold and transferred directly to individual officers.

So my question remains, what makes these 2 rifles being discussed "post sample"?
right or wrong, because someone registered them as such I would imagine. Links to the sale of CAIs as PSs have been posted here in years past as I recall
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Old September 19, 2017, 08:54   #14
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Easiest way to make a full auto postie.
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Old September 21, 2017, 15:48   #15
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right or wrong, because someone registered them as such I would imagine. Links to the sale of CAIs as PSs have been posted here in years past as I recall
I recall a fellow up in Wisconsin registered about 10-12 of them as posties with full auto parts for a "rent-a-machine-gun" venture that never quite went anywhere. He was trying to sell one or two of them on GB for a while.
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Old September 21, 2017, 19:16   #16
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Just because the topic has been discussed on this forum for years doesn't mean a correct solution was ever reached. I've just gotten tired of discussing it. I've offered a dozen 'proofs' that nobody will ever address so if y'all want to continue to be wrong about it you have my blessing.

Since when will ATF approve two of the same model posties to anyone? I thought they cut that chit out twenty yrs ago.

Welcome to the forum. You picked a righteous deep puddle to step into right out of the gate.
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Old September 21, 2017, 21:21   #17
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Just because the topic has been discussed on this forum for years doesn't mean a correct solution was ever reached. I've just gotten tired of discussing it. I've offered a dozen 'proofs' that nobody will ever address so if y'all want to continue to be wrong about it you have my blessing.

Since when will ATF approve two of the same model posties to anyone? I thought they cut that chit out twenty yrs ago.

Welcome to the forum. You picked a righteous deep puddle to step into right out of the gate.
Yes, I agree. And not even any correct answer to my question. Can I withdraw my question?????
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Old September 21, 2017, 21:37   #18
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Just because the topic has been discussed on this forum for years doesn't mean a correct solution was ever reached. I've just gotten tired of discussing it. I've offered a dozen 'proofs' that nobody will ever address so if y'all want to continue to be wrong about it you have my blessing.
Unfortunately, it may take charges and a trial to make the final determination.
The outcome may depend heavily in the court venue/jurisdiction.
I always thought the trial transcript in this thread was enlightening,
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...r+Parker+trial
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Old September 22, 2017, 00:19   #19
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Unfortunately, it may take charges and a trial to make the final determination.
The outcome may depend heavily in the court venue/jurisdiction.
I always thought the trial transcript in this thread was enlightening,
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...r+Parker+trial
No. During the AWB CAI was able to import these weapons, with the ATF's blessing, and sell them directly to LEO's. L1A1's and 1A1's were never made to fire automatically. They never were "machine guns".
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Old September 22, 2017, 07:35   #20
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No. During the AWB CAI was able to import these weapons, with the ATF's blessing, and sell them directly to LEO's. L1A1's and 1A1's were never made to fire automatically. They never were "machine guns".
My post was too pithy.
I agree the Century L1A1s are semi-automatics and, unmodified, will always be semi-automatic, as the rifle was designed.
For those that disagree or question, they will never be satisfied until some poor soul in dragged into court.
I linked to the thread with the court transcript to illustrate that the presence of a cut for a safety sear on the receiver of a FAL does not always indicate the firearm is a machine gun; please note the FAL in the trial was not a G series or Steyr Import.
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Old September 22, 2017, 09:08   #21
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I linked to the thread with the court transcript to illustrate that the presence of a cut for a safety sear on the receiver of a FAL does not always indicate the firearm is a machine gun; please note the FAL in the trial was not a G series or Steyr Import.
Guy had a good lawyer and ATF's expert witness flubbed the testimony.

Sounds like a G1 with the sear slot welded and selector removed. THAT, I would call a machinegun, even if it was a stripped receiver, based on my reading of the law and the long standing (although not supported in law) position of ATF of "once a machinegun, always a machinegun". This is why an M14 with the lug cut off is still a machinegun.

I would love to challenge that "policy" as it fails each point of the legal definition.

L1A1s were never a machineguns. There were (6?) L1A1s on which I have the MOD paperwork, assigned to the SAS in Vietnam, that were authorized for conversion to FA. That they had to be converted, is pretty good evidence that the manufacturer asserts they are not machineguns as-issued. It also states that they must be converted back to SA if they left the theater of operations.
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Old September 22, 2017, 15:25   #22
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Offhand I can think of about a dozen different models of firearms that have been wholesale confiscated by ATF that were never MGs,.....in fact I can think of a couple that were never even firearms. ATF still took 'em because in their opinion they met the current definition of MG.

Let's just talk G-series FAL and nothing else. Can we agree that there are a number of G's "on the list" that are grandfathered and that there are a number of G's NOT "on the list" that aren't grandfathered? Is there any difference whatsoever between the two? Are they physically identical? (yes) Are they functionally identical? (yes) Were any of them ever capable of auto fire? (no) Are they identical in history and design(other than one being on a list and the other not? (yes). Does ATF and everyone on THIS board agree that those rifles NOT "on the list" are NOT legal to own? I assume so.

Why aren't they legal to own? What is the logic ATF uses to confiscate and destroy them? *Hint*,.....it's not really the "list" but rather the reason the "list" exists. ATF considers them to be Machine Guns.

What about the grandfathered guns? They're semi,....right? No, they're not. That's why there's a list. If ATF considered them to be semis there'd be no need for a list. Something that is grandfathered is allowed to be kept even though by current definition it is not legal to own. Are DSA rifles grandfathered? Are Mod94 Winchesters grandfathered? No, of course not,.....those are legal to own. There's no need for grandfathering. There's no "list" for those rifles. You don't need a "list" for rifles that are not machine guns. Anybody following the logic here yet? Silly question, I know.

So if there wasn't a list grandfathering the G-series rifles they'd not be legal to own because of the fact that they are machine guns by current definition/regulation. Why? What's special about a G series? Well,.....I guess it has a sear-cut receiver. Maybe that's it.

But whoa,............what about all the other imported FALs with sear-cut receivers that currently trade openly as semis with no grandfathering or listing? Are you suggesting that the sear-cut Steyrs and others are machine guns too?!? (yes) I suppose you think the same thing about the LEO L1A1's that were never built as semis and were sold outside the NFA to individual LE officers? (you're catching on, but really it's not what I think and not even about what ATF is currently doing/not doing,......it's about what ATF may do in the future with the full weight of law behind them).

It's really just a matter of time and politics. ATF hasn't gone after any/most of the above listed rifles simply because it was ATF error that allowed them to exist in the first place. There's no political will to go after them at this point but sooner or later ATF is going to come to the realization that nobody there today was there when the problems arose and logically nobody there today can be held responsible. But those there today can make hay and headlines cleaning up the mess,......if they frame it right.

The courts have already ruled that a regulatory agency has NO authority to grandfather a damn thing and it's been a bunch of years since they have bothered to try. Now no matter what little thing gets their goat they go after it wholesale, whether it be improper demils, BB guns with a third hole, or an offensive spring. They no longer grandfather anything because the only legal option they have is "amnesty" and they really, really don't like to get anywhere near that topic.

Legally they can't grandfather the G-series rifles and they can't let you have the Steyrs, these LEO L1A1s or open-bolt MACs. There is some good/bad news though. The only thing they can do to clean up the mess is have an amnesty, but that's a win/lose situation. For those who own G-series rifles and open bolt MACs,........an amnesty should allow you to keep them AND convert to FA AND legally register them since they do meet the legal definition of machine gun and they were possessed prior to the MG manufacturing ban in 1986! The bad news is that if you own a sear-cut anything that wasn't here prior to the '86 ban you lose it since it too is a machine gun by definition but wasn't possessed prior to the ban. Can't convert/register it now due to FOPA. So maybe the important question to argue isn't whether or not any particular thing is legal to own but whether or not it was manufactured or imported prior to May 19, 1986.

Anybody remember a few years back when ATF re-interpreted the definition of Destructive Device and arbitrarily decided that what had previously been legal to buy/own shotguns suddenly became DD's? They didn't grandfather any of those, did they? No, they held a 'limited' amnesty(that lasted about seven years)that allowed you to register and keep the Streetsweepers and Strikers that had been redefined as DD's(didn't charge you a tax either btw). If you registered them they were yours but if you didn't they became contraband. There's no way to legally own one not registered.
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Old September 22, 2017, 15:27   #23
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Guy had a good lawyer and ATF's expert witness flubbed the testimony.
Guy had a good judge. I wouldn't count on finding one of those in modern day America.
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Old September 22, 2017, 15:35   #24
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Excellent post Kev. I've always steered clear of those L1A1s regardless of what anyone says, simply because of ATF's ever-changing "interpretations."
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Old September 22, 2017, 16:44   #25
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That item A is specifically identified as ok, does not mean that anything not specifically identified, is not ok.

And yes, there are some win 94s that are "grandfathered", and some that are not. Trappers with barrels shorter than 16" - with Winchester paperwork, are good to go as C&R, and exempt. No paperwork, it's an SBR.
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Old September 22, 2017, 17:05   #26
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That item A is specifically identified as ok, does not mean that anything not specifically identified, is not ok.

And yes, there are some win 94s that are "grandfathered", and some that are not. Trappers with barrels shorter than 16" - with Winchester paperwork, are good to go as C&R, and exempt. No paperwork, it's an SBR.
Yeah more folks counting Angles dancing on the tip of a Pin.

What Kev ignores is that ATF has regulatory authority to remove & exempt

I keep trying to get across to folks that the NFA contained no Antique exemptions, that all the NFA law written in the mid 30s applied to even matchlock ignition systems. Cap and Ball Colt revolvers with shoulder stocks were regulated under the NFA

The Bureau began removing things from the NFA way back in the 50s

The Court ruling Kev brings up was a crazy deal
backstory it was due to a case where the defendant argued his select fire AR was legal as he had used a pre Nov 81' drop in auto sear which had been grandfathered as non NFA.
DOJ ended up having to argue ATF lacked authority to grandfather period
The Court agreed
that's the basis.

Problem was that opened up a huge can of worms as it meant to "fix" the problem they had to allow an amnesty on DIAS
It wasn't ATF that screwed the pooch, it was DOJ so everyone just acted as though it never happened. ATF has never stopped exempting certain guns in the years since.

The Street Sweeper deal was different
That was Bentsen & Clinton declaring they had no sporting purpose and as they were over .50 they became DDs
The Treasury Sec has that authority, any shotgun is at potential risk of politics. Particularly combat models.

Anyways when you run with ATF doesn't have authority it hits across the board, antiques, hell the old Civil war cannon in front of Courthouses become unlawful NFA subject to confiscation
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Old September 22, 2017, 17:58   #27
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Well then I would steer clear of FN49's, M1 Carbines, AR15's and anything else that was designed as a fully automatic and can be converted to fire automatically in 10 min or less, or any semi automatic. The ATF could go Australia at any time.

I could build a PPSh41 from a ATF approved semi receiver into a full auto in less than 5 min. It's all about intent and how easy it takes Joe Blow in garage, with common hand tools.

To get approval of a design you have to submit a sample and if it passes the test it is ok. The metric and G series were originally select fire rifles with the safety sear removed, a longer trigger plunger installed and a change lever that had a beak. The L1A1 and 1A1's were never designed for automatic fire.

The later sear cut Steyrs also had a semi EB and a semi BC along with the above mods.
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Old September 22, 2017, 18:14   #28
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The later sear cut Steyrs also had a semi EB and a semi BC along with the above mods.
Yes, which means it takes me an extra 15 minutes to covert them to full-auto, compared to any part-kit gun today.
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Old September 22, 2017, 20:12   #29
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it takes me an extra 15 minutes to covert them to full-auto, compared to any part-kit gun today.
That long I guess you don't want to sacrifice an end mill to get it done sooner
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Old September 23, 2017, 10:03   #30
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Weld in the missing trip on the bolt carrier (stainless for carbon migration)
let cool - do not quench!
machine square. and to dimension.

So yeah, about 15 minutes longer than say a DSA.
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Old September 24, 2017, 05:06   #31
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...

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Old September 24, 2017, 18:38   #32
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Century Arms imported FAL rifles BY THE PALLET back in the day. They bought them surplus by the pound and they were stacked like cordwood on pallets when they were delivered to their warehouse in Vermont. Rumor was they were detritus from the war in the Falkland Islands and they were comprised of surplus Argy FAL's (full auto capable) and Brit L1A1's (semi only). Century, being the enterprising bunch they are culled out a few of the semi L1A1 rifles and offered them to individual LEO's so as to not run the risk of raising the ire of the ATF and shutting down the entire Angry Beaver operation that has brought us all the wonderful rifles we see today (good and bad). The beavers, as we know, were busy disassembling functional surplus rifles and mixing the parts with receivers of dubious quality so as to make we collectors head spin as we try to make sense of it all. Hence, the L1A1's made it through as complete rifles and are the closest thing you can have to a genuine Commonwealth battle rifle here in the States.
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Old September 24, 2017, 21:44   #33
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Originally Posted by SPEEDGUNNER View Post
Century Arms imported FAL rifles BY THE PALLET back in the day. They bought them surplus by the pound and they were stacked like cordwood on pallets when they were delivered to their warehouse in Vermont. Rumor was they were detritus from the war in the Falkland Islands and they were comprised of surplus Argy FAL's (full auto capable) and Brit L1A1's (semi only). Century, being the enterprising bunch they are culled out a few of the semi L1A1 rifles and offered them to individual LEO's so as to not run the risk of raising the ire of the ATF and shutting down the entire Angry Beaver operation that has brought us all the wonderful rifles we see today (good and bad). The beavers, as we know, were busy disassembling functional surplus rifles and mixing the parts with receivers of dubious quality so as to make we collectors head spin as we try to make sense of it all. Hence, the L1A1's made it through as complete rifles and are the closest thing you can have to a genuine Commonwealth battle rifle here in the States.
Sigh. Nearly all the Argy FAL's were sea dumped off the coast of the Falklands. A few were brought back to the UK for trials prior to the dumping to see if they had attributes that were worth incorporating into the British Army's inventory, specifically the Para models but in the end, they were rejected. Instead of shipping all the weapons back to the UK, they were just sea dumped in containers. Never mind that one of my buddies was one of the largest arms dealers in the UK at the time and was practically begging the MOD to allow him to purchase them. Semi-auto rifles were perfectly legal in the UK back then, even ones converted from full auto...

A few others made their way home in kit bags but many of them were also dumped over the side when the lads were told they would be searched by the Military Police before landing in the UK. The boys who dumped their rifles and pistols were pretty pissed off when no search ever took place...
NO L1A1's were ever surplus from the Falklands conflict. The Falkland Island Defence Force did choose the AUG over the SA80/L85 so their weapons were surplused out but I'm told they were returned to the UK as they were on loan from MOD rather than purchased by them.

The UK had hundreds of thousands of L1A1's in war stock after the L85 went on general issue. Being the pragmatic folks they were, the MOD wanted to get some coin for their weapons and sold them on the open market to the highest and best bidder. That was Century for the most part but the UK still retained plenty of them as long term war stock. When I went to my last posting in 1998 at 15 Field Workshops REME, one of the old and crusty armourers had just returned from Lebanon. He was one of the few master armourers for the L1A1 still serving and he had been sent there for 4 weeks to fix the 9,000 L1A1's the MOD sold to the Lebanese for 2 million pounds sterling. Apparently, the Lebanese couldn't get them to run and the group of armourers sent out there had some issues with them too. MOD eventually just refunded their money and told them to keep the rifles...

When UK got involved in Sierra Leone, aid to the country involved sending them a shit load of L1A1's. A mate I served with recently retired after 36 years and told me he had seen some L1A1's being trialed for use as DMR rifles for Iraq and Afghanistan. They were found wanting which lead to the competition for the Sharpshooter rifle aka L129A1 which LMT won handily.

The ex LEO rifles are not the closest thing to the real thing: they ARE the real thing. The rifles that the OP is asking about were registered at some point by an SOT as post sample machineguns whether they are select fire or not. Now they are in the NFA registry as MG's, they ain't never coming out unless we have a revolution and repeal the NFA...
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Old September 25, 2017, 09:36   #34
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I thought we all knew that CAI was a front for the CIA?
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Old September 25, 2017, 11:51   #35
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I thought we all knew that CAI was a front for the CIA?
Well Sam Cummings of Interarms sure was. Brits sold a bunch of Lee-Enfields to him back in the time when the Soviets were in Afghanistan and instead of hitting American shores, they somehow ended up in the hands of the Mujaheddin...
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Old September 25, 2017, 12:27   #36
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Well Sam Cummings of Interarms sure was. Brits sold a bunch of Lee-Enfields to him back in the time when the Soviets were in Afghanistan and instead of hitting American shores, they somehow ended up in the hands of the Mujaheddin...
Ahh, the whole Contra drugs for guns, replane in Mena AR (with Governor Clinton taking a cut of the drugs) then transshipment to Afghanistan to arm the Mujas and demoralize the Russians.

https://www.amazon.com/Compromised-C.../dp/1561712493
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Old September 26, 2017, 07:09   #37
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That item A is specifically identified as ok, does not mean that anything not specifically identified, is not ok.

And yes, there are some win 94s that are "grandfathered", and some that are not. Trappers with barrels shorter than 16" - with Winchester paperwork, are good to go as C&R, and exempt. No paperwork, it's an SBR.
OK, so some rifles meet the technical definition of SBR but are grandfathered by paperwork that exempts them? Which side of this are you arguing? Where's the paperwork that removes the L1A1 or any other sear-cut FAL from the NFA?

Nah, I swear,....I absolutely wasn't going to get drawn into this again but I just happened across this a minute ago while looking for something totally unrelated(How do you permanently attach an alloy barrel extension to a steel barrel?!?)

https://www.atf.gov/file/58196/download

Page ten and eleven should be studied.

Of all the different firearms defined as NFA weapons, machineguns are the only type where the receiver of the weapon by itself is an NFA firearm. As a result, it is important that the receiver of a machinegun be properly identified. Many machineguns incorporate a “split” or “hinged” receiver design so the main portion of the weapon can be easily separated into upper and lower sections. Additionally, some machineguns utilize a construction method where the receiver is composed of a number of subassemblies that are riveted together to form the complete receiver.

The following table lists specific models of machineguns incorporating the above designs and the portion of the weapon that has been held to be the receiver. This list is not all- inclusive. For information concerning a split or hinged receiver type machinegun not listed below, contact FTB at(304) 260-1699.

Model Receiver
Armalite AR10 lower
Armalite AR15 (all variations) lower
Armalite AR18 lower
Beretta AR70 lower
British L1A1 upper
Browning M1917 right side plate
Browning M1919 (all variations) right side plate
Browning M2 & M2HB right side plate
Colt M16 (all variations) lower
Czech Vz 61 lower
FN FNC lower
Model Receiver
FN CAL upper
FN FAL upper

Interesting,....both the FAL and L1A1 are specifically listed.

Then this,......

"The “designed to shoot automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger” portion of the definition relates to the characteristics of the weapon that permit full automatic fire. ATF has also held that the “designed” definition includes those weapons which have not
previously functioned as machineguns but possess design features which facilitate full automatic fire by simple modification or elimination of existing component parts. ATF has published rulings concerning specific firearms classified as machineguns based on this interpretation of the term “designed.”15"

I would think that any firearm that incorporates an auto sear would fall under this paragraph. Yes, I know that the Brits call it a "safety sear" but they also call a trunk a boot and a hood a bonnet but that doesn't mean a Bentley doesn't have a hood or a trunk,......it just means the Brits speak English in a weird manner.
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Old September 26, 2017, 07:53   #38
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The following table lists specific models of machineguns incorporating the above designs and the portion of the weapon that has been held to be the receiver. This list is not all- inclusive. For information concerning a split or hinged receiver type machinegun not listed below, contact FTB at(304) 260-1699.

Model Receiver
Armalite AR10 lower
Armalite AR15 (all variations) lower
Armalite AR18 lower
Beretta AR70 lower
British L1A1 upper
Browning M1917 right side plate
Browning M1919 (all variations) right side plate
Browning M2 & M2HB right side plate
Colt M16 (all variations) lower
Czech Vz 61 lower
FN FNC lower
Model Receiver
FN CAL upper
FN FAL upper

Interesting,....both the FAL and L1A1 are specifically listed.

Then this,......

"The “designed to shoot automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger” portion of the definition relates to the characteristics of the weapon that permit full automatic fire. ATF has also held that the “designed” definition includes those weapons which have not
previously functioned as machineguns but possess design features which facilitate full automatic fire by simple modification or elimination of existing component parts. ATF has published rulings concerning specific firearms classified as machineguns based on this interpretation of the term “designed.”15"
All AR-15's and AR-10's are then machine guns. They are simple to modify. Takes a jig and a drill bit and about 5 min of work.

So I would worry about the Govt coming and collecting all of them
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Old September 26, 2017, 08:07   #39
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they are telling you which part of the weapon is the firearm.

by the way, they also have reversed this on the FNC and another one (AR180?)
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Old September 26, 2017, 08:10   #40
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OK, so some rifles meet the technical definition of SBR but are grandfathered by paperwork that exempts them? Which side of this are you arguing?
I was just pointing out that your example was incorrect.

I assert that

1. CAI import L1A1s are not machineguns
OR
2. Every one sold, and every one purchased by an LEO was a felony. All those cops need to be thrown in prison and their gun rights and voting rights revoked forever. Pensions lost. Etc.


Pick one. Can't be both.
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Old September 26, 2017, 09:32   #41
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2. Every one sold, and every one purchased by an LEO was a felony. All those cops need to be thrown in prison and their gun rights and voting rights revoked forever. Pensions lost. Etc.


Pick one. Can't be both.
You would also have to include the ATF agents that allowed the importation/selling/distribution of these "machine guns" and CAI for importing/selling/distributing said "machine guns".

That's a lot of people going to club fed for 10 years each "machine gun".
That would be what 20,000* years for every person involved in the importation/sales/distributing of them? (*if they imported 2000)
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Old September 26, 2017, 09:36   #42
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I was just pointing out that your example was incorrect.

I assert that

1. CAI import L1A1s are not machineguns
OR
2. Every one sold, and every one purchased by an LEO was a felony. All those cops need to be thrown in prison and their gun rights and voting rights revoked forever. Pensions lost. Etc.


Pick one. Can't be both.
Unfortunately it is undefined, therefore it can be both upon definition. Which is always a risk with regulations under the color of law.

The good news is that should it later be "defined" as contraband, you cannot criminally be responsible. BUT the contraband can be confiscated. HOWEVER, if they are successful in proving that a "reasonable" person should have known it was forbidden, they may be able to prove malicious intent.

Which is always the risk of a "gray area" (aka unknown conditions skirting known restrictions).

The definitions are the key to turning back a lot of these gun-control measures. The anti's have been far more clever than us in this arena. We are stuck on absolutes, while they are inching us toward prohibition. The recent "gunsmithing" fiasco is a good case in point. They made a change in "import/export" restrictions than used regulations to expand definitions to restrict an entire class of unrelated activities.
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Old September 26, 2017, 09:52   #43
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they are telling you which part of the weapon is the firearm.

by the way, they also have reversed this on the FNC and another one (AR180?)
No, no they are not. The section deals with machine guns, not firearms. The entire file deals solely with NFA items. Not one word about anything else. And yes, ATF has waffled back and forth endlessly with the FNC and the AR18/180,...both semi and auto versions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
I was just pointing out that your example was incorrect.

I assert that

1. CAI import L1A1s are not machineguns
OR
2. Every one sold, and every one purchased by an LEO was a felony. All those cops need to be thrown in prison and their gun rights and voting rights revoked forever. Pensions lost. Etc.


Pick one. Can't be both.
The M94 was just a random model thrown out as "not a machine gun" and not requiring grandfathering. The SBR exemption is unrelated but if anything argues against the assumption that somehow the L1A1 is 'grandfathered' without any determination by ATF.

I pick 3. Neither.

The CAI import L1A1s are machine guns by current definition and were improperly imported/released to LEO and exist in limbo for now. That's probably very much part of the reason ATF has not moved on them. Nobody on the receiving end of one of them has done anything wrong but there will always be risk of confiscation. No prosecution will ever follow as long as the owner forfeits when confronted. Fail to forfeit and see what happens.

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All AR-15's and AR-10's are then machine guns. They are simple to modify. Takes a jig and a drill bit and about 5 min of work.

So I would worry about the Govt coming and collecting all of them
Yes, Armalite AR10 and Armalite AR15 lowers,......not aftermarket AR lowers referred to as AR10/AR15 nor anything made by the current Armalite company that is not Armalite in other than marketing copy. Seriously man, you're completely out of your depth in any intelligent discussion.

Once again, this is not what I want to do today.
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Old September 26, 2017, 10:01   #44
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Unfortunately it is undefined, therefore it can be both upon definition. Which is always a risk with regulations under the color of law.

The good news is that should it later be "defined" as contraband, you cannot criminally be responsible. BUT the contraband can be confiscated. HOWEVER, if they are successful in proving that a "reasonable" person should have known it was forbidden, they may be able to prove malicious intent.

Which is always the risk of a "gray area" (aka unknown conditions skirting known restrictions).

The definitions are the key to turning back a lot of these gun-control measures. The anti's have been far more clever than us in this arena. We are stuck on absolutes, while they are inching us toward prohibition. The recent "gunsmithing" fiasco is a good case in point. They made a change in "import/export" restrictions than used regulations to expand definitions to restrict an entire class of unrelated activities.
Thank you,...exactly. I type slow and didn't see this until after posting but yes, this is exactly what I'm saying and all that I'm saying. I don't want or have an interest in any particular outcome,.....I just have to jump in when a certain group of people throw out that these are all perfectly fine and legal to own because (endless stupid and illogical wrongness to follow).

It's gray. It's gray for a reason. Enter at your own risk. Be prepared to lose the item.
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Old September 26, 2017, 10:22   #45
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I understand what you are saying, but there are several issues. Interpretations change and interpretation is not law. What you are citing is not law, it is a policy interpretation/commentary. As many of us are aware, ATF has published "policy letters" over the year that are in diametric opposition to previous policy letters.

Second, it is interesting that FN FAL is listed, as there are plenty of Belgian FN FALs (not on the amnesty list) that are not machineguns. So I again assert that, while the commentary is about machineguns, the point of the commentary is to establish which half of a hinged rifle is the "firearm" part. "Machinegun" is a further refinement of "firearm".

Of course, that's also a complicated can of worms. An M1 carbine receiver is not a machinegun. An M2 carbine receiver is. The only difference is one says "M1" and one says "M2". And then, although it is clearly established that the part the barrel screws into on the M1 is the receiver, it is the trigger pack that drops right in and makes it select fire. Therefore, the "not a firearm" complete trigger housing, is a machinegun, even in absence of a receiver. It is a conversion part. Throw away the trip, toggle, J spring, etc., and it's now an M1 trigger housing and is not a machinegun, despite the recess for the J spring.

Another thing that comes to mind, in using your assessment, is that British L1A1 is listed in the commentary, and Australian and Indian L1A1s are not.

I again bring up the MOD letter authorizing certain L1A1s inthe VN theater (I think it was 6) to be converted to full auto. That they have to convert them, strongly suggests to me that they previously were not.

"Readily convertible" is always an tough one. I can convert a 1911 to full auto in 5 minutes. Of course, I would be introducing a defect, not a design feature, but it remains readily convertible to a firearm that will do a mag dump with a single function of the trigger.
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Old September 26, 2017, 10:48   #46
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Yes, Armalite AR10 and Armalite AR15 lowers,......not aftermarket AR lowers referred to as AR10/AR15 nor anything made by the current Armalite company that is not Armalite in other than marketing copy. Seriously man, you're completely out of your depth in any intelligent discussion.

Once again, this is not what I want to do today.
Define simple modification.

"The “designed to shoot automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger” portion of the definition relates to the characteristics of the weapon that permit full automatic fire. ATF has also held that the “designed” definition includes those weapons which have not previously functioned as machineguns but possess design features which facilitate full automatic fire by simple modification or elimination of existing component parts. ATF has published rulings concerning specific firearms classified as machineguns based on this interpretation of the term “designed.”15"
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Old September 26, 2017, 10:54   #47
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I would think that any firearm that incorporates an auto sear would fall under this paragraph. Yes, I know that the Brits call it a "safety sear" but they also call a trunk a boot and a hood a bonnet but that doesn't mean a Bentley doesn't have a hood or a trunk,......it just means the Brits speak English in a weird manner.
No it doesn't. I'm English and the "safety sear" is exactly that; it is intended to prevent the weapon from firing until the bolt and carrier are locked up because as we have seen numerous times, bad shit happens with the FAL/L1A1 when the weapon fires out of battery. It was never designed as a sear trip and even with the safety sear in place, the weapon CANNOT fire full auto, no matter how hard you try unless you modify the weapon. The L1A1 is a distinct and separate weapon from the FAL in as much as it was NEVER designed to be a fully automatic weapon. The ATF have mistakenly seized upon a single feature it shares with the FAL and determined that is what makes it a machinegun.

ATF is gonna get their ass handed to them if they try to prosecute someone for one of these IF the accused has money and access to good attorneys.
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Old September 26, 2017, 10:59   #48
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I hate even mentioning the M1/M2 because it is a snarl, but in my opinion(and ianal)ATF is as consistent on the issue as they can be. M1/M2 receivers are identical as during WWII the M2 conversion was just that,....a conversion that could be done in the field. Things are complicated due to the fact that so many 'M1' Carbines were released to citizens by the US Gov't so there's plenty of ground to be tip-toed around, but in effect, if it's marked M1 ATF OKs it because it is presumed to have been manufactured as a semi. If it's marked M2, regardless of current condition or parts, it gets confiscated because it was presumably manufactured as a machine gun. Seems reasonable from their perspective. The 'conversion parts' thing came about primarily because of the M1/M2 situation where just about everyone who owned an M1 also had a stash of previously unrestricted M2 parts. They cleaned up the situation as best they could by forcing registration of the 'complete' conversion set. You can still illegally assemble a complete kit by cherry picking parts from different vendors so it's still not an optimal solution, but it's the best they have.

I'm about 99% certain that if ATF found someone in possession of an M2 marked receiver and a huge-by-large pile of paperwork showing that they received the rifle directly from Uncle Sam in M1 configuration that the rifle would still be forfeit and destroyed and that the 'possessor' would face no consequences unless he made an effort to not turn it over. The proper response,...."Thank you, may I have your card? I will locate that item for you immediately and have my attorney turn it over to you directly. Would tomorrow be too soon?" Keep that in mind if you have one of these L1A1s. Enjoy it but be prepared to hand it over with the quickness if it ever comes down to that. The slightest hesitation or obfuscation will destroy you. No canoe accidents for you! That's how everybody gets three hots and a cot courtesy of ATF.

Bringing up the FN FAL listing, it's clear that they're referencing the auto version and not the FN manufactured sporting semi-auto version since they're not talking at all about semi-autos. Note that ATF no longer allows even FN to mark the rifles FAL, not that that's an issue any more. Also not at all strange that they list the British L1A1 and neglect the Aussie and Indian versions,......they state right up front that the list isn't all-inclusive.

The most common argument is that the L1A1 was never a semi and I understand your argument that the Brits needing authorization to 'convert' half a dozen of them would indicate that it's a fact, but I'd take it back further. The L1A1 is a variant of the original FN FAL and was designed as an automatic. The Brits redesigned it to preclude auto fire, did they not? Did they not make two very minor alterations that even a schoolboy could undo? Did they not leave the vital secondary sear intact? Notice that everyone else who redesigned the FAL to preclude auto fire was forced to do away with the sear(with some few exceptions which I suggest are errors in import).
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Old September 26, 2017, 11:05   #49
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I would also include the once a machine gun fallacy into this conversation. If I take my AR15 drop in a RDIAS, as I have done in the past, timed the bolt carrier to the RDIAS to get it to function as a full auto, then remove the RDIAS it is no longer a machine gun (same with HK's registered sears).

So dropping in a part, the registered "machine gun" and modifying part/s to make it work, it is no longer a "machine gun" when you remove a part.
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Old September 26, 2017, 11:08   #50
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Define simple modification.

"The “designed to shoot automatically more than one shot without manual reloading by a single function of the trigger” portion of the definition relates to the characteristics of the weapon that permit full automatic fire. ATF has also held that the “designed” definition includes those weapons which have not previously functioned as machineguns but possess design features which facilitate full automatic fire by simple modification or elimination of existing component parts. ATF has published rulings concerning specific firearms classified as machineguns based on this interpretation of the term “designed.”15"
Minor grinding or complete removal of two minor parts would qualify as 'simple modification' with no modification of the receiver being required. It's the auto sear that allows auto fire,.......two minor parts have been modified to prevent it. I don't need or want to get into the specifics, especially when I know that you already know. You cannot be reasoned with,........I am done trying. Squirrel!
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