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Old October 27, 2018, 18:50   #51
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I was told to step up our efforts which are pretty extreme. Will have three people in overt rifle rated armor and rifles sitting just out of view of congregation instead of one along with other people holding the line going into soft armor that till now refused to wear it.
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Old October 27, 2018, 19:32   #52
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You'd think the Jews,here,would be a lot more "on the ball",seeing almost daily,their bretheren over yonder taking rocks and rockets...
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Old October 27, 2018, 21:31   #53
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Even if had rent a cops, had to threaten to fire three for not wearing vests while being paid at a church was consulting with. They said were too hot and not required for "off duty" security work. My first battle was to get then in uniforms instead of slacks with knit shirts and compact backups in belt. Said we needed uniforms and duty weapons along with marked car at entrance and at main door. They showed up in uniform but no vests. Know their 3a vests won't stop rifles but do make them more effective in anything from fist fight to swapping rounds with a handgun.

I now wear a pair of Hardwire 8"10" Level 3++ rifle plates when doing church security with Level 2+ soft vest that are rated to M855 Green Tip and M80 ball. 8"10" are not huge but protect heart from front and back plus most of spine and lungs. Other than the two rent a cops have at my church pastor and I only people in body armor and he wears a Level 2 kit with one soft trauma plate over heart and sternum. Pulpit is handgun resistant. Have one very competative IDPA shooter on team, 20+ year SWAT team member as one of our paid guys, an FAA Sky Marshal, GBI SWAT member and one of the best natural pistol shooters in lobby with a 10mm Glock. I keep a suppressed AR 15 in reach of me in sanctuary and have guy behind stage curtains in full door kicker kit.

Been really trying to get all volunteers in soft armor and after texts today have pile of Level 2 vests in truck to let guys try on tomorrow. We have had active shooter and an attempt but because handled so well guys have been hard to convince. Think today's events have got several of their wives nagging them. Even against a rifle a Level 2 soft armor kit with Dyneema special threat plate takes about half the sting out of a M193 round after passes through into gellitan. Soft armor and soft plate takes almost none.
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A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
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Old October 28, 2018, 10:49   #54
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A uniformed person would stick out to an outsider,bent on mass casualty. They'd likely be the focus at first,and once dealt with,move on to the softer.
Not sure that heavy armor is the best option. I would think mobility would be paramount. The main objective,it seems to me,is once the bad guy is ID'd,engage them,and keep them busy trying ducking bullets while average joes evacuate out,or dial the popo.
There was a video floating around a while back,with an off-duty cop who moonlighted as a guard at a laundrymat. Urban trash walk in,pointing guns and what not,and that cop did everything right. He identified,drew,starting engaging while people took cover,and he kept focus,firing aimed shots,and maintained a considerable distance,where his marksmanship gave him the edge over the sideways grip shooting spray-n-pray thugs.He ends up getting one or two,and nobody else gets hit.Like Wild Bill used to say,its the guy who keeps his cool that wins.
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Old October 29, 2018, 00:09   #55
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We have two to three uniforms and over a dozen plain cloths persons on team. Honestly part of the plan is that an active shooter engages the uniforms first and why it was made a requirement they wear full uniform, not just knit shirt with small sheriff's office logo and compact weapon on belt along with their armor. If shooter goes for them first it gives our three best shooters time to maneuver an angle to get off a clean shot. A mix is a good idea but more out of uniform than in so perp is never sure how many people might be in place and ready.
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Old October 29, 2018, 13:47   #56
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A friend and retired police officer has been teaching 'active shooter' classes for the past several years all over the US. https://www.t4tactics.com. Marco has interviewed survivors and responders to many of the active shooter incidents in the past several years to collect the inside information the media may never provide, nor can provide. Marco had trained and helped organize security details at a number of churches. Business has been very good, and because business if so good there are now a lot of "companies" out there now advertising their expertise in this arena.

If your church, business, or organization is interested in receiving this sort of security training, it will pay in the long run to throughly check out the company you are considering to hire.
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Old October 30, 2018, 10:24   #57
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Majority of my ballistic barrier work is done for corporate offices and church children's areas. We have had two active shooters in our church of which both failed to get off a shot. One turned and ran when realized was surrounded by security and other was taken down quickly, quietly and removed from building. He was a cop and claimed his gun was slipping out of holster so nad to remove it to reholster. Two days later he shot his ex wife and her boyfriend at her home with his daughter present. We have worked hard and integrated parking lot volunteers, greeters and staff into trained spotters. Least bit of quirkiness will get three team members surrounding a person till service is over and they leave. If they blink nobody hesitates.
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A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
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Old November 03, 2018, 12:56   #58
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More references

Quote:
The Secure Community Network is a non-profit organization founded in 2004 as a central address serving the American Jewish community concerning matters of communal safety, security, and all-hazards preparedness and response. Created by the Conference of Presidents, United Jewish Communities and the American Jewish Committee, the organized Jewish community established a coordinated approach for community wide notifications, crisis management and security measures emphasizing common standards for enabling Jewish communities throughout North America to embrace and evidence a culture of security awareness, preparedness and disaster response and resiliency. SCN operates a full-time threat and information sharing center to monitor and report on threats and security events impacting the American Jewish community. SCN was nationally recognized by Secretary Janet Napolitano and the U.S. Department of Homeland Security as a model homeland security network and initiative for faith-based organizations
https://securecommunitynetwork.org/r...ses-of-worship
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Old November 08, 2018, 11:33   #59
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https://www.guns.com/news/2018/11/05...he-flock-video
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Old December 18, 2018, 18:15   #60
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Keeping the New Church Medical Topic from Derailing

On main campus we have three sanctuaries running at same time plus other classes and the children's pod. We have to have emergency exits but they can only be opened from inside and set of alarms when opened. We must keep all exterior doors unlocked and we keep an armed person at each who is usually carrying a duty size handgun under a sport coat. The only door we allow to be used for entry to the children's area (nursery through pre-K) is force rated, has two men protecting it and not even parents are allowed to enter unless they are volunteers that have been fingerprinted and gone through a background check. Only persons allowed to carry firearms into children's area are uniformed law enforcement.

We have numbered pagers we issue parents for every kid that enters. At childens reception we have an entire staff of volunteers checking in kids. If it is a visitor they must give basic information such as kids names, any allergies and emergency contact information for someone other than parent dropping them off. Each kid has a sticker with their name, number of pager and Barcode placed on center of back so can't remove themselves. If kid gets sick, fussy or upset sticker is scanned and press of a button pages their parent to come get them where wait at door for child to be brought out. The two guys that watch that door Sunday and Wednesday are big bruises with impeccable gun handling skills. One watch him regularly go 10 for 10 at 100 yards on soda cans at 100 yards with the 10mm he carries. May be the best natural pistol shot I know.

The teen sanctuary has armed guards at each door and the youth minister of music who is always on the podium center of room is a regional level IDPA competitor who carries his major power factor IDPA pistol with three spare mags. Children's sanctuary (1st through 5th grade) has armed and armored uniformed officer backed up by a plain cloths volunteer. There are three rifle lockers that require keys hidden in plain sight. Also have a fourth rifle I keep locked within reach of my station in sanctuary though between services I roam following the flow of largest majority of people. Between services when have people leaving one service and entering for next I back up security at main entrance.

We have trained parking lot staff and greeters as spotters. Our goal is to not have active shooting start and have stopped one as gun came out of holster (he later shot ex wife and new boyfriend off campus) put him down and had out of building in 90 seconds and congregation never knew it happened. Another we chased out of building who was wearing a disguise. Man dressed as female w big purse very well done only thing tip us off was had hand in purse when came thru door, all way to sanctuary & thru praise music & offering. By then had 4 men on him wit three between him and exit door. Me and another approached and asked to speak outside sanctuary and he let over row of chairs and managed to elude all of us even with men at exits waiting to car with stolen out of state plates.

Had another person try in disguise with Hollywood quality makeup, facial props like cheek pads wear in mouth to change shape of face an color of complexion. Looked Asian possibly but hair died blonde plus spray tan and eye makeup change shape of eyes. Soon as realized he had been noticed and before security volunteers backup arrived for the approach managed to give entire team the slip even with all being alerted with description of facial features, body shape and clothing. We have largest Al Fuqari training camp in Southeast just 25 miles away and been told we are of interest to them due to our size and very conservative world view.

My website which uses URL www.ChurchSecurityVolunteers.com and www.ChurchSecuritySolutions.com has been getting me a lot of emails asking for help. Trying to keep up with laws in each state and update as change in how they affect church security and it's almost impossible to build a legal volunteer team in Georgia without spending a lot of cash. Have to start an actual security company and have all your volunteers go through Georgia Blue Card training and put them in uniforms, hire private security firm or use off duty law enforcement whether they volunteer or get paid. We have three LEO's on payroll and half a dozen who volunteer as work shifts allow. How we handle our volunteers took some doing to get them legal and insured without security guard uniforms.

Read your state laws carefully, you, rest of team and church could lose all you own in civil court if not properly documented and insured. I have been advising churches in over ten states and working with a dozen locally who want security using volunteers but insurance and blue cards are budget breakers for small churches. My ballistic products company will really do their best to cut prices to smaller churches and even big ones to some degree. I am making ballistic rated pulpits and retrofitting existing guest check in kiosks, children's church doors and converting any existing structure into ballistic barricades for security to fire from real cover when can. It stuns me to visit a church with four or five men with pocket 380's and no formal training or planning as their security and believe they can go toe to toe with an armored shooter with a rifle and backpack of magazines.
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A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
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Old December 19, 2018, 00:40   #61
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It seems that having heavy duty doors, and locking them once services begin, might help tremendously.
The shooter would have to waste time forcing them open, and make lots of noise doing so.
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Old December 19, 2018, 09:47   #62
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Good point on the legal side, huey. I'll ask at our next meeting about what we are doing to comply with any applicable laws. I have been using info from your site for our group and situation. Of course, the answer of "It's too expensive!" comes up every time I mention ballistics rated materials. I am making progress, though. I mentioned that the double doors that go into the kids area that are held open by magnets should be able to be remotely released. Our "concierge" has finally agreed that something should be done to them to be able to release and lock since there are no handles on the outside, just key holes. That is his next project.

We have recently implemented having most exterior doors locked 15 minutes after service starts and greeters leave. I want the greeters to be trained to look into the parking lot and observe for us and also look at people coming in. The two main entrances are open the entire time but have a security device to lock them from the inside. Not perfect, but slowing someone down is their goal. We also had cameras installed and a security team member has an Ipad to monitor them.

I started this journey about 2.5 years ago and we are finally implementing some of it. Slowly but surely.
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Old December 21, 2018, 11:09   #63
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Suggest you check with your local Fire Marshall about locking the doors. That is a huge NO for us. We have two sets of doors that are very hard to cover on Wednesday nights and Sunday Night small group sessions due to shortage of man power. Suggested we lock those two and our Administrative Pastor checked with insurance company and Fire Marshall which both gave an emphatic no, Absolutely Not!!!!

We have multiple emergency exits that have no exterior door handles or way to use for ingress but all will instantly open when people press bar that is full width of door which causes an audible alarm, flashing strobe and notice to alarm monitoring company. This keeps someone who might hide with intent to steal and use an emergency exit for getting much out the door before cops show up plus motion sensors will pop as they try to move about. We have over $100,000 invested in new computerized sound board that can be run by new generation that can only comprehend digital sound control. We have a $25,000 analog sound board in a special area in the front of balcony that as we added large projection screens, monitors in entrance foyer, hallways, etc the "kids" were missing really closely timed cues to swap input devices and proper microphone inputs with over two dozen wireless microphones.

Now we have a pastor who specializes in setting up the computers for every service that starts with a ten minute countdown, a few PSA's as congregation gets seated and everything to pastor taking the pulpit is timed to the second from announcements, music, video, tithing, etc including the lighting transitions. The kids can't run an analog sound board but on the fly if computer crashes can tether tablets or smart phones into inputs and take over basic controls or run a casual or surprise service from their tablets without booting a computer.

We had a associate pastor (14 pastors last time I counted but have added two campuses since then) while senior pastor was out of town send out an email blast, Facebook post, Tweets, etc on a special multichurch/community prayer vigil where we were going to pray for local and all law enforcement/emergency responders at 7:00 pm in parking lot of main campus. No alerts to security team, no calling our paid law enforcement and on worst weekend of rioting across the nation about police brutality where every cop available, reserve officers and even GBI were at full alert. Local sheriff and police chief were invited to be honored and prayed for as people marched around the parking lot praying. One of the three dumbest ideas have ever seen implimented.

Called/texted/emailed all my team and only one was able to give me a maybe as several were on she due to work their firefighter, police, EMT shifts, work in Atlanta and no way to make it back through a two hour drive through Friday 5:00 pm traffic. Called sheriff who said every officer he had was either working double shifts and spread thin as loaned every "extra" officer to Atlanta where three separate violent riots broke out including one that shut down all north and south bound lanes of I-75 and I-85 that night. We have huge main parking lot plus a back lot and one at church office complex. Behind church is a 40 to 50 acre field with a half mile of tree line and only me to ensure nobody took any shots at crowd or sheriff/police chief as we're brought up on a portable platform to be "honored".

I called senior pastor who had no idea as was over two hours away in a conference with his phone off all day. He gave me permission to do whatever I deemed necessary to protect the crowd and the two officials as between them they could not pull a single person off patrol to cover the event and we're in dress uniforms with only a duty pistol and covert armor. I showed up in my full kit, had a pack with binoculars, helmet, range finder, annenometer, etc and my electronic keyboard case that carries an M1a National Match and full custom 300 Win Mag in manner that does not look like rifle case. Set up a hide on corner of roof top with plan to put head on a swivel watching crowd and tree line with sandbags for the 300 Win Mag facing tree line, M1a National Match overlooking crowd and based on where saw threat either before or after shots were fired to turn best rifle to shut it down.

Luckily senior pastor left conference early, broke every speed limit and other traffic laws to arrive 20 minutes before event start, unlocked doors and moved crowd inside using heat 90+ still in parking lot as excuse for it to not be a public display anymore but moved crowd into main sanctuary. Quickly stowed my rifles, grabbed an AR 15 in 6.8 from the truck which was in a guitar case, went in and started helping pastor fire up computer for basic control of sound system (learned the basics as post myself nearby beside elevated platform with automated camera and blend in as sound guy so can just grab my AR which stow under camera in lock box and can grab and be on 40" tall and five foot by ten foot platform to work from if crap totally hits the fan am shooting down rather than trying to thread bullets through a panicked and running crowd.

One of the kids showed to run sound and as sheriff walked in on cue in shiny boots and dress uniform with shiny belt, holster with snapped flap and saw me sitting there in full camouflage plus an IOTV overt vest with collar, shoulder daps, groin protector with 6"6" Level 3 plate 6"9" Level 3 side plates and Level 4 multi hit-plates looking like a bug in a bowl of white rice but trying to be a discreet as possible in sound pit. With room full of people many from different churches and community had no feel for who might be a threat and except for the two men in dress uniforms on stage that felt would be primary targets had no backup except pastor who for first time was wearing his double stack 10mm as realized like me were hosed if something went wrong and had only me standing a post. Make sure junior staff is trained not to surprise the security team with an unscheduled event.

Since we are not allowed to lock doors we have one area where have three sets of double doors in a glass entrance foyer. Two sets are side by side and third set is on corner perpendicular to them. Since we can't lock them we are planning to remove them and put glass panels to reduce on set of doors to keep watch over. If the new window film am testing that's rated to stop a 9mm bullet works out will likely add it to all the glass from floor to at least ten feet up. We had those little feet on all doors that allow someone to open a door, push foot down and door stayed open rather than hydraulic closer doing its job. Got to where every Sunday at end of each service someone would open the two that are supposed to stay closed and push the little feet down totally defeating our system of all ingress and egress going through main doors with armed guards. I removed the feet after first service one Sunday after an email had gone out to all approved kids workers they were not to be propped open and actually have a guy that leans his back against the one most used making it impossible to open unless he moves.

If church catches fire, multiple active shooters engage at same time, bomb explodes people are going to want out and have seen people crushed to death at locked doors in shopping centers during emergencies and even Black Friday sales rush. Suggest you be very careful about locked doors and consider swapping to locking mechanisms that keep them from being opened from outside during services if your choice but during an emergency anyone can open if trying to escape an emergency. Door that access the podium/stage is on an electronic keypad which only praise team, pastors, set moving staff and security have code. The medical room only medical team ranking people and long time security team members trained in emergency medicine have code. Children's area door has a seven pin security lock and a security person has to unlock everytime a kid or group of kids enter and if do not have their "sticker" with name and pager code plus allergies on back do not enter that part of building. Have had kids caught in a divorce try to be removed by parent that lost custody more than once. Even the big burly men get shut down fast.

Door control and monitoring is a huge part of security but people being able to exit quickly is important as well. If worst happens we have children's staff trained to evacuate kids to safe area outdoors and staff trained to direct people to rally points while parking lot staff will block all exits to keep preps from driving off and to keep us from losing valuable witnesses. We can then check for wounded, reunite kids with parents, count kids heads against numbers checked in using tablets and bar code scanners. Unfortunately we need to spend another $50,000 now on security and add $10,000 per year to security budget but members keep voting to spend money on more visible programs than barriers, more paid law enforcement and additional training for security team. It's a battle but every year have improved our situation and after over a decade it is acceptable but not even close to failproof.
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Old December 29, 2018, 12:44   #64
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Originally Posted by hueyville View Post
Suggest you check with your local Fire Marshall about locking the doors. That is a huge NO for us. We have two sets of doors that are very hard to cover on Wednesday nights and Sunday Night small group sessions due to shortage of man power. Suggested we lock those two and our Administrative Pastor checked with insurance company and Fire Marshall which both gave an emphatic no, Absolutely Not!!!!
It was the police and Fire Marshal who told us to do that. The mechanism is a bar with two drop tines on it that slip into slots mounted on the two doors. Very easy to remove if needed for egress once the initial situation was over or had changed. The other doors in the building leading to the outside are push bar type that you can exit through with no problem. These are as well, but we wanted to leave some doors unlocked for an entrance that is available during the entire service. They both come into our lobby area, one on the north side and one on the south. There are always people in the lobby, so that was why these doors were the ones to be left unlocked.

There is a set of industrial double doors about 8 feet tall and 8 or 10 feet wide in the outer wall of the sanctuary that we are going to work on being able to open more easily for an additional exit. They are used to bring in large equipment like lifts for working on lights, speakers, or projectors on the ceiling.
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