The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapon Specific Forums > The FN Files

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old December 01, 2018, 23:02   #101
gentlemanjoe
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 77676
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,101
I was happy that it under timed to 9:30-10:00 as opposed to over timing to 14:00-14:30.

So far this one has twisted together fine. Even the locking shoulder that came with the kit gauged out to be what I needed. How lucky was that.
gentlemanjoe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 01, 2018, 23:04   #102
adam6955
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 73011
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: REAL Northern California
Posts: 112
Barrel timing early is preferable to undersized gasblock journals. That is a deal breaker.

I am not opposed to some barrel shoulder work. Welding to fix a NEW barrel? Not gonna happen.
adam6955 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 02:37   #103
hardheaded
Senior Member
Silver Contributor
 
hardheaded's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 27964
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 772
I ended up knocking 002 off the shoulder

I would rather do that than a breaching washer

The horizontal lock lever was mangled and the pin for the gas tube was missing
Other than that the kit went together without a hitch other than my stupidity letting that one piece extractor kick my butt around for a while

Wound things up tight , I was able to HS on the 267 locking shoulder that came with the kit

IF it ever stops raining I feel a trip to the bench coming on

I don't know if you could heat shrink the gas block accurately enough to get a seal on the kit gas block

Dang shame about those new barrels
__________________
Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.
Thomas Jefferson
hardheaded is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 06:37   #104
munchoman
Senior Member
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 21848
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: MN
Posts: 831
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentlemanjoe View Post
I removed the gas block from their barrel (it was Israeli marked) and was gonna use the gas block that came with the kit to complete the battle field look. The gas block from kit is too loose and just slides on with no effort. The gas block was not soldered onto the barrel I got from DSA. I just pressed it back on the barrel again. That pin sure was tight though coming out and going in.
It looks like the barrels where built to accommodate DSAs supply of NOS gas blocks.
If the kits gas block is a spinner, so now the NOS gas block should spin after being knocked off and replaced.
Perhaps the NOS gas blocks are undersized, and needed to be reamed to bring to spec
munchoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 10:07   #105
def90
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 50609
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Peoples' Republic of Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 12,297
Lol.. I’ve got a ton of original barrels with gas blocks removed as well as take off gasblocks and none of them can be slid on by hand.

Thankfully I’m going to use one of my surplus barrels for my build.
__________________
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of creatures Chuck Norris allows to live.
def90 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 10:12   #106
def90
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 50609
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Peoples' Republic of Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 12,297
As far as these barrels go I see them putting the closed ear gasblocks on barrels with a lug and non threaded muzzles. Shouldn’t that barrel profile only be used on the open ear gas blocks? Thought the closed ear gasblock rifles had regular barrels with a combo device and without a lug.
__________________
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of creatures Chuck Norris allows to live.
def90 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 11:22   #107
Abominog
Registered
 
Abominog's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 372
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Guadalcanal
Posts: 9,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by def90 View Post
As far as these barrels go I see them putting the closed ear gasblocks on barrels with a lug and non threaded muzzles. Shouldn’t that barrel profile only be used on the open ear gas blocks? Thought the closed ear gasblock rifles had regular barrels with a combo device and without a lug.
The open ear block is correct with type a barrel. Closed ear is correct with combo device.

I would not go so far as to say Izzy unique closed ear is wrong on type a. I’m sure if a good search is done we will find the Izzy block on type a.
__________________
They will live a long time, these men of the South Pacific. They, like their victories, will be remembered as long as our generation lives. Longer and longer shadows will obscure them, until their Guadalcanal sounds distant on the ear like Shiloh and Valley Forge. --- Michener, Tales of the South Pacific

Tempus Edax Rerum
Abominog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 12:49   #108
def90
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 50609
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Peoples' Republic of Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 12,297
I guess thinking about it now that I am fully awake my kit with a closed ear block would have had a combo device included with it if it came that way. Unless they were thrown out with the barrel parts by the demiller which is probably unlikely.
__________________
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of creatures Chuck Norris allows to live.
def90 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 13:36   #109
embatp
What? Me AR?
Silver Contributor
 
embatp's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 39856
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Behind enemy lines...
Posts: 4,326
Some of the izzy rifles had the later block on the standard lugged barrel and some had barrels without the lug and a combo device....the combo device was retrofitted to earlier open ear and later closed ear lugged barrels...
__________________
"only he is lost who gives himself up for lost"
embatp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 13:55   #110
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by embatp View Post
Some of the izzy rifles had the later block on the standard lugged barrel and some had barrels without the lug and a combo device....the combo device was retrofitted to earlier open ear and later closed ear lugged barrels...
That brings up another question then.
Would a FN bipod cut barrel with the combo device be correct with an Izzy closed ear gas block ?
Or were the later closed ear gas block barrels non bipod cut ?
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 13:57   #111
def90
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 50609
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: The Peoples' Republic of Boulder, Colorado
Posts: 12,297
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
That brings up another question then.
Would a FN bipod cut barrel with the combo device be correct with an Izzy closed ear gas block ?
Or were the later closed ear gas block barrels non bipod cut ?
Pretty sure none of the light barrel rifles ever had a bipod cut barrel.
__________________
There is no theory of evolution, just a list of creatures Chuck Norris allows to live.
def90 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 21:55   #112
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by def90 View Post
Pretty sure none of the light barrel rifles ever had a bipod cut barrel.
I figured as much, thanks

so to do it somewhat correct one should turn the forward bipod ring off I guess ?
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 02, 2018, 22:17   #113
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 6,570
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
I figured as much, thanks

so to do it somewhat correct one should turn the forward bipod ring off I guess ?
I don't believe the diameter inside the groove is the same as the OD of the barrel. If not then you have a step even if you turned off the rings. This is why BGS conversions that use bipod cut barrels have to be welded up and turned back down for A model builds.
I used a like new IMBEL non-bipod cut barrel for my late closed ear izzy.
__________________
How's your dog, Paden?
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 03, 2018, 14:29   #114
APEXgunparts
Registered
 
APEXgunparts's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 61867
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 676
First day back after the SAR show in Phoenix.
I didn't know this thread was so active!

My thanks to Mark Graham for taking the time to come over and visit me at my tables.
It was good to talk face to face for a bit.
Mark had limited time as he was away from his own tables.

I think DS Arms didn't have a lot of the new Israeli gas blocks in stock when they started putting them on barrels.
These were a part that DSA bought 20-25 years ago.
I had asked about adding them to the APEX product line and was told there were not enough left to do so.

Regarding the information about the gas block fit to the NEW US made barrels.
Please keep in mind that the gas blocks in the kits are on barrel sections.
I have no way to test fitment.
If Dave S. hadn't made a point to explain to me about this possible fitment concern, I wouldn't have known to add that to the APEX barrel advert.
I appreciate that he made sure to educate me on the topic.
That journal diameter is being addressed.
My understanding of barrel timing to the receiver is that it is a relationship.
Receiver threads, barrel shoulder, barrel threads, face of the receiver all can effect the timing.
There are probably other factors that I am not aware of.

Glad to see some pictures and experiences being shared.

Richard
__________________
APEX Gun Parts 719-481-2050 OFFICE/order line
Mon-Fri 9am to 4:30pm MT www.apexgunparts.com
APEXgunparts is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 03, 2018, 16:23   #115
Abominog
Registered
 
Abominog's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 372
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Guadalcanal
Posts: 9,240
How many guys are going to kick themselves for not mortgaging the house to stock up on these kits? Once they are gone watch the price skyrocket
__________________
They will live a long time, these men of the South Pacific. They, like their victories, will be remembered as long as our generation lives. Longer and longer shadows will obscure them, until their Guadalcanal sounds distant on the ear like Shiloh and Valley Forge. --- Michener, Tales of the South Pacific

Tempus Edax Rerum
Abominog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 03, 2018, 17:54   #116
hardheaded
Senior Member
Silver Contributor
 
hardheaded's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 27964
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abominog View Post
How many guys are going to kick themselves for not mortgaging the house to stock up on these kits? Once they are gone watch the price skyrocket
Yes, they said the same thing about HBARs
Try to sell one without giving it away
Interesting market

The kit I bought turned into a great looking riFAL
__________________
Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.
Thomas Jefferson
hardheaded is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 04, 2018, 09:21   #117
ramiller
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 3674
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: pennsylvania
Posts: 1,598
The time to mortgage the house was when TAPCO was selling kits for 100 . Those times are gone keep your house.
ramiller is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 04, 2018, 11:37   #118
otis61
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 26667
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: N.W.coast
Posts: 842
Quote:
Originally Posted by APEXgunparts View Post
My understanding of barrel timing to the receiver is that it is a relationship.
Receiver threads, barrel shoulder, barrel threads, face of the receiver all can effect the timing.
There are probably other factors that I am not aware of.



Richard
I got one of the DSA barrels. Not that I am defending DSA, I would't want to, but I did test fit the barrel threads with a Coonan, and it was about 10:00. I also tested two STG's, and a Belgian. They all tested in the same spot as the DSA for barrel timing.
__________________
"We must indeed all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately" Ben Franklin
otis61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 04, 2018, 17:47   #119
adam6955
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 73011
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: REAL Northern California
Posts: 112
Would be nice to get the barrel "issue" figured out. I am holding off on a kit purchase because of it.

It is not difficult. Remove a gas block, and mic it. Mic barrel. Do Math. DONE.

Tell y'all what. Send me 5 kits, and 5 barrels, and I will do it myself

Last edited by adam6955; December 04, 2018 at 17:53.
adam6955 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 05, 2018, 12:03   #120
APEXgunparts
Registered
 
APEXgunparts's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 61867
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam6955 View Post
Would be nice to get the barrel "issue" figured out. I am holding off on a kit purchase because of it.

It is not difficult. Remove a gas block, and mic it. Mic barrel. Do Math. DONE.

Tell y'all what. Send me 5 kits, and 5 barrels, and I will do it myself
APEX is not the lead on the barrel making.
We just sell what other people manufacture.
APEX also doesn't have the technical expertise to work up barrel prints, establish tolerances, chose materials, select the proper finishes, QC the final delivered product,, etc.
Another challenge is knowing & understanding the production history of the gun/barrel in question.
Very often the original manufacturer introduced changes during the production run, either at the direction of the end customer/user or directed by the manufacturing engineer.
That data can be difficult to locate or is only discovered once you get into the "project" and can be a very costly lesson!
It is one of many reasons why I stay "in my lane" and do what APEX does best!

Richard
__________________
APEX Gun Parts 719-481-2050 OFFICE/order line
Mon-Fri 9am to 4:30pm MT www.apexgunparts.com
APEXgunparts is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 05, 2018, 13:22   #121
hardheaded
Senior Member
Silver Contributor
 
hardheaded's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 27964
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 772
The kit from APEX + barrel w/gas block +DS LMT II receiver = a outstanding looking riFAL
Besides the early barrel timing it went together like Legos

Still waiting for nice weather and bench time
__________________
Tyranny is defined as that which is legal for the government but illegal for the citizenry.
Thomas Jefferson
hardheaded is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 05, 2018, 15:25   #122
adam6955
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 73011
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: REAL Northern California
Posts: 112
Ya, I get all that...as relevant as it is to the question. As a seller, it would be in your interest to know whether you are selling a quality product, right? Throwing your hands in the air and claiming ignorance does very little to ensure the return business of customers affected by your lack of "technical expertise." We have already established that DSA is not the most trustworthy company, and you are the middleman selling their products. Then we have an experience FALsmith saying there is precedent to believe their products should be scrutinized. Soooo...??

Seriously though purchasing and using a micrometer is not expensive or difficult. There are youtube videos showing how...

Quote:
Originally Posted by APEXgunparts View Post
APEX is not the lead on the barrel making.
We just sell what other people manufacture.
APEX also doesn't have the technical expertise to work up barrel prints, establish tolerances, chose materials, select the proper finishes, QC the final delivered product,, etc.
Another challenge is knowing & understanding the production history of the gun/barrel in question.
Very often the original manufacturer introduced changes during the production run, either at the direction of the end customer/user or directed by the manufacturing engineer.
That data can be difficult to locate or is only discovered once you get into the "project" and can be a very costly lesson!
It is one of many reasons why I stay "in my lane" and do what APEX does best!

Richard
adam6955 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 05, 2018, 15:27   #123
adam6955
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 73011
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: REAL Northern California
Posts: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by hardheaded View Post
The kit from APEX + barrel w/gas block +DS LMT II receiver = a outstanding looking riFAL
Besides the early barrel timing it went together like Legos

Still waiting for nice weather and bench time
Thanks for the information!!
adam6955 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 05, 2018, 15:40   #124
gunplumber
Arrogant Bastard
Gold Contributor
 
gunplumber's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 96
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Surprise, AZ
Posts: 24,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam6955 View Post
Ya, I get all that...as relevant as it is to the question. As a seller, it would be in your interest to know whether you are selling a quality product, right? Throwing your hands in the air and claiming ignorance does very little to ensure the return business of customers affected by your lack of "technical expertise." We have already established that DSA is not the most trustworthy company, and you are the middleman selling their products. Then we have an experience FALsmith saying there is precedent to believe their products should be scrutinized. Soooo...??

Seriously though purchasing and using a micrometer is not expensive or difficult. There are youtube videos showing how...
Kindof harsh - as you noted, it is a DSA product. Why don't you ask DSA?

There is a little more to fitting gasblocks than randomly measuring one journal and one gas block.

Sometimes on FN barrels I have to go through a dozen to get a good gasblock fit. That's after pulling gasblocks, which is not as easy as on an AR-15.

I think Richard has done all he can to fulfill his obligation of full disclosure on the parts he is selling. If you are unwilling to take the risk, that's your decision. But I think it's a little unfair to be giving him a hard time for a product he didn't make.
__________________
T. Mark Graham, Master Gunsmith
Arizona Response Systems, LLC
gunplumber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 05, 2018, 18:06   #125
Abominog
Registered
 
Abominog's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 372
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Guadalcanal
Posts: 9,240
At the price APEX is offering these barrels i suggest learning to make it work. Yes, you might have some figgurin to do, but at the end of the day kit plus barrel is a great deal.
__________________
They will live a long time, these men of the South Pacific. They, like their victories, will be remembered as long as our generation lives. Longer and longer shadows will obscure them, until their Guadalcanal sounds distant on the ear like Shiloh and Valley Forge. --- Michener, Tales of the South Pacific

Tempus Edax Rerum
Abominog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 05, 2018, 19:54   #126
adam6955
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 73011
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: REAL Northern California
Posts: 112
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Kindof harsh - as you noted, it is a DSA product. Why don't you ask DSA?

There is a little more to fitting gasblocks than randomly measuring one journal and one gas block.

Sometimes on FN barrels I have to go through a dozen to get a good gasblock fit. That's after pulling gasblocks, which is not as easy as on an AR-15.

I think Richard has done all he can to fulfill his obligation of full disclosure on the parts he is selling. If you are unwilling to take the risk, that's your decision. But I think it's a little unfair to be giving him a hard time for a product he didn't make.
Harsh? Coming from you that is an absurd statement. Especially considering YOU were the one that raised the alarm about DSA and these barrels in the first place!!!

As YOU have noted, and many others, DSA is not known for replying to answers. Nor are they known for honest answers when and if they reply. So I figured I would ask those with the barrels in hand.

I know that you and Richard are best buddies now, but you have to remember a couple days ago you were trashing DSA and these barrels.

I was not giving him a hard time,nor was my question even aimed at him. After his diatribe about how he did not make the product and he is not responsible and tries to "stay in his lane" I felt my reply fitting. His reply had virtually nothing to do with my question, but apparently he took it personally

Did I ever say this was "as easy as fitting a gasblock on an AR15?" Why bring up an AR in the first place? Last I checked this is not an AR forum...FYI I have build enough AKs (and high HP race engines) to know how to take a basic measurement. But thanks...

I am not, nor would I ever, ask for a vendor to measure every barrel and every gasbloc. ESPECIALLY if the gasblocks have to be demilled first. What WOULD be reasonable is that someone capable of using a micrometer measure enough of the gas block journals to give us a good representative sample of the journal size for this batch of barrels. I would think that would be a reasonable inventment in time to put a small market of enthusiasts at ease before dropping $700+ of their hard earned cash, but I guess not.

Remember way back last page when I joked that I would take 5 of the kits and 5 barrels and measure? I swear, some of you are either dense or feigning ignorance for the sake of arguing on the internet
adam6955 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 05, 2018, 20:02   #127
Flypaper
Craftsman
Gold Contributor
 
Flypaper's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 71040
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Northern, MN
Posts: 1,991
I got three barrels from DSA the first day they were available. Mine fit perfect on my BGS gas blocks.
__________________
.
.
Check out my wood furniture thread in services
.
.
.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4601515
Flypaper is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 05, 2018, 20:44   #128
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 6,570
APEX is in a hard place. They are selling wares made by a company with a spotty record. When people start having problems with these barrels who are they going to call? APEX. The ad for the barrels doesn't say who made them just "made in USA".
Who then will have the headache of receiving returned barrels and shipping out more that potentially have the same defect as the previous and then dealing with DSA to collect for or replace the barrels. And DSA will tell APEX there's nothing wrong with the barrels, it's up to the customer to make them fit.
All the while APEX's reputation might take a hit and for no fault of their own.

I don't envy Richard.

There are ways to get customers barrels that will fit their GB's, problem is it's more labor intensive and that means money.
__________________
How's your dog, Paden?

Last edited by hkshooter; December 05, 2018 at 20:55.
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 06, 2018, 06:44   #129
DakTo
MadMinuteDude
Platinum Contributor
 
DakTo's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 9689
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Indian River, Florida
Posts: 8,170
Hopefully this entire issue is much to do about nothing.
However for the ease of mind which company is guaranteeing the barrel?
__________________
NEVER touch another man's fries.
DakTo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 06, 2018, 09:38   #130
gunplumber
Arrogant Bastard
Gold Contributor
 
gunplumber's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 96
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Surprise, AZ
Posts: 24,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam6955 View Post
Harsh? Coming from you that is an absurd statement. Especially considering YOU were the one that raised the alarm about DSA and these barrels in the first place!!!
I'm not blaming Richard, or demanding he become a gunsmith before he can sell a fully disclosed product that someone else made. YOU are the one doing that -

Quote:
As YOU have noted, and many others, DSA is not known for replying to answers. Nor are they known for honest answers when and if they reply. So I figured I would ask those with the barrels in hand.
You didn't "ask those with". You directly maligned Richard for not pulling all of the gas blocks from all of the kits, and taking measurements to the ten thousandth of the inch ID, and comparing it to every DSA barrel journal also +/- around .0005". Which is bullshit. He said he doesn't know, and is selling the barrels with full disclosure that there is an unknown variable. That he doesn't know and is not going to find out may affect a potential customer's buying decision. That is true. Your getting butthurt over it is fine as well. And you even have the "right" to express your displeasure. Just as I have the right to call you out for being a dickhead.

Quote:
I know that you and Richard are best buddies now, but you have to remember a couple days ago you were trashing DSA and these barrels.
You are a f-cking idiot. So I'm not sure how my attempts to school you on simple reading comprehension will work.

I have yet to see one of these barrels. I noted that IF the journals are undersize, it is essentially useless. I did not say they were. I only noted that DSA's note made me suspect something was amiss.

Quote:
I was not giving him a hard time,nor was my question even aimed at him.
Yes, you exactly were and yes, it exactly was. And it's so obvious that I don't see why you are lying about it now. I am an asshole and an arrogant bastard, but I try to be fair - which means calling shitheads like you out when you unfairly assail someone. Whether I like that person or not is irrelevant. I've met Richard once and talked to him for less than 15 minutes. So here's what you wrote since you are too stupid to remember that far back.

Quote:
"As a seller, it would be in your interest to know whether you are selling a quality product, right? Throwing your hands in the air and claiming ignorance does very little to ensure the return business of customers affected by your lack of "technical expertise."

Quote:
I am not, nor would I ever, ask for a vendor to measure every barrel and every gasbloc. ESPECIALLY if the gasblocks have to be demilled first.
Your understanding of the topic is so poor as to make my comments on how stupid your assertions are, without purpose. Here's a tip - whatever barrel and/or kit you buy will be screwed up. But ONLY YOURS. Because you're a prick. So don't order one. Instead, go f-ck yourself.
__________________
T. Mark Graham, Master Gunsmith
Arizona Response Systems, LLC

Last edited by gunplumber; December 06, 2018 at 09:46.
gunplumber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 06, 2018, 23:45   #131
adam6955
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 73011
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: REAL Northern California
Posts: 112
Reply in bold

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
I'm not blaming Richard, or demanding he become a gunsmith before he can sell a fully disclosed product that someone else made. YOU are the one doing that -



You didn't "ask those with". You directly maligned Richard for not pulling all of the gas blocks from all of the kits, and taking measurements to the ten thousandth of the inch ID, and comparing it to every DSA barrel journal also +/- around .0005". Which is bullshit. He said he doesn't know, and is selling the barrels with full disclosure that there is an unknown variable. That he doesn't know and is not going to find out may affect a potential customer's buying decision. That is true. Your getting butthurt over it is fine as well. And you even have the "right" to express your displeasure. Just as I have the right to call you out for being a dickhead.

I guess you failed to read my first post. I asked a simple question, and got every piece of information other than what I asked for. Excuses and attitude. In the time it takes to type a message real work can be done. Strange concept.

You are a f-cking idiot. So I'm not sure how my attempts to school you on simple reading comprehension will work.

I have yet to see one of these barrels. I noted that IF the journals are undersize, it is essentially useless. I did not say they were. I only noted that DSA's note made me suspect something was amiss.

Insults and avoiding the topic. Liberal tactics at their best!!

If you have yet to see them, then why did you scream and cry a week ago about these barrels? I quoted your post below, as it seems you are suffering from a combination of anger and short term memory loss. It was more than "noting" your suspicions. It was several paragraphs trashing on DSA and assuming these barrels are trash.


Yes, you exactly were and yes, it exactly was. And it's so obvious that I don't see why you are lying about it now. I am an asshole and an arrogant bastard, but I try to be fair - which means calling shitheads like you out when you unfairly assail someone. Whether I like that person or not is irrelevant. I've met Richard once and talked to him for less than 15 minutes. So here's what you wrote since you are too stupid to remember that far back.

I think I deciphered that. The only thing obvious to me is that you get angry and throw words at people on the internet. If YOU are assailing someone its all good. If someone else is "assailing" someone according to your perception, its all good. Of ALL THE PEOPLE on this message board to call someone out, you are the last. You are a HYPOCRITE.


Your understanding of the topic is so poor as to make my comments on how stupid your assertions are, without purpose. Here's a tip - whatever barrel and/or kit you buy will be screwed up. But ONLY YOURS. Because you're a prick. So don't order one. Instead, go f-ck yourself.

Thank you. I strive hard to be insulted by grown men with no emotional control or adult speaking skills. My "understanding of the topic" is fine. Yours, however, is clearly shooting wide of the mark. I asked for info on the barrels that YOU cast suspicion on. Some members have been helpful. I thanked them for it. You, the self proclaimed "foremost FALsmith in the US," have not, but that has not stopped you from running your little c*ck holster. One would think you might inspect the barrels you so thoroughly trashed a week ago IN PERSON at the show, but I guess you could not be bothered to validate your own comments.

Beyond that, I am not going to get into a debate with an internet tough guy who lacks grade school grammar skills.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
"These barrels are new U.S. Production, fit of original surplus gas blocks may not be optimal as the gas block is designed to be a press fit onto the journal. Original surplus gas blocks have already been pressed and as such may be slightly larger in diameter."

Translation - we f-cked up and made the journals too small for the gas blocks - But it's your fault.

The whole purpose of these barrels is for these kits. If the barrels journals are smaller than the blocks, they are scrap metal. Well, maybe the journals can be built up with hard chrome plating. But as-is, they are WORTHLESS!

I'd have made all my journals .005" oversize. But then, I'm not a f-cking idiot, and I know it's easier to make the journal smaller than larger.

So I wonder what the barrels with gas blocks installed are like.

Yes, with AKs, it's possible to make parts fit that don't fit, by knurling and hard soldering to fill the knurling, and then turning down to correct diameter. But this is a last resort and a major PITA - and AK barrels and components are stamped with the degree of interference fit for each component 1-2-3.

A new barrel made to fit a specific part, that does not, is useless.
adam6955 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 00:28   #132
gentlemanjoe
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 77676
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 1,101
Heaven forbid but somebody's going to have a heart attack and be found by their neighbors sunny side up, clutching their heart in a greasy shop floor. Over pride

I tip my hat to DSA and Apex. My kit screwed together with minimal effort and the mechanical zero was almost spot on. Even my front sight aperture is correct at 100 yards.

Are any builders actually having such extreme issues that their kits are going to require a "professional" to complete.

Last edited by gentlemanjoe; December 07, 2018 at 00:36.
gentlemanjoe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 08:07   #133
gunplumber
Arrogant Bastard
Gold Contributor
 
gunplumber's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 96
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Surprise, AZ
Posts: 24,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam6955 View Post
the barrels you so thoroughly trashed a week ago IN PERSON at the show
You are a liar and a slandering cnut - that NEVER HAPPENED

But seeing as how you can't keep your story straight on the same page of this thread, I guess it's what we should expect from a proven liar.

My answer remains that I haven't seen one, but DSA's disclaimer makes me highly suspicious of undersize journals.
__________________
T. Mark Graham, Master Gunsmith
Arizona Response Systems, LLC

Last edited by gunplumber; December 07, 2018 at 08:13.
gunplumber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 08:46   #134
ramiller
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 3674
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: pennsylvania
Posts: 1,598
Has anyone given thought to the process called spray welding . they use it on engine crankshafts to add a few thousands to the journals. If it will withstand the harsh use in a gas or diesel engine a gas block requirement should be easy
ramiller is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 08:47   #135
NHBandit
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 7986
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: East Tennessee
Posts: 4,026
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam6955 View Post
Reply in bold
Wow.. for a racecar builder you really are a ******* moron. Apex sells mainly military surplus parts. They do not build guns or even employ any gunsmiths. The very nature of what they sell assumes that the buyer has some amount of capability. You have barely over 100 posts TOTAL and a good percentage of them are on this post. While I have had more than my share of disagreements with Mr Graham in the past he is spot on with his comments to you. And as much as he has a dislike for DSA I'm sure he would welcome the opportunity to praise them when they get it right. It makes his job so much easier. You accuse him of being buddies with the guys from Apex but from what I'm reading it's looking like you have some sort of personal beef with them. You haven't bought a kit and have ZERO personal knowledge of any issues with gas block fitment and the guys here who have bought them along with the new DSA barrels are reporting that they fit fine. However slight variations in fitment is sometimes the nature of the beast. I remember several years ago I bought a bunch of stripped South African barrels from one vendor and then a bunch of used gas blocks from Gunthings to complete them. Well guess what.. Some were extremely tight and some practically fell on. By swapping them around I got them all to be a nice press fit that I was happy with. If you're not capable of building a FAL from surplus as well as new parts don't buy one but there's nothing to be gained by you being the dog who humps everyone's leg on this post...
Apex is one of the best in the business as far as taking care of their customers yet here you are causing "much ado about nothing".. How about you just STFU and go away...
__________________
Live Free or Die

Last edited by NHBandit; December 07, 2018 at 08:53.
NHBandit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 09:29   #136
embatp
What? Me AR?
Silver Contributor
 
embatp's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 39856
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Behind enemy lines...
Posts: 4,326
Until someone has a gas block that won’t fit this is all BS....
__________________
"only he is lost who gives himself up for lost"
embatp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 11:54   #137
APEXgunparts
Registered
 
APEXgunparts's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 61867
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 676
APEX has sold out of the barrels that are such as hot topic.
I expect another delivery towards the end of next week, probably the week after.
I also expect the new lot to be from the current run, with an adjusted gas block journal diameter and (hopefully) phosphate finish.

Sorry to have generated such a fuss!
We are still selling and shipping kits, I think my guys have the shipment all handled and sorted now.
The latest kits being handled were PPs-43 and I think we are about to bag up Bulgarian AK-74 stock sets.

Mark/Gunplumber was nice enough to journey over from his tables at the CrossRoads show and visit with me at my tables at the SAR show.
Sorry to say we are not friends, I haven't earned that yet.
We are in a related business and as such we extend a professional courtesy to each other.
The show in Phoenix was a chance to meet and I didn't want to waste that opportunity.
I respect Mark for his knowledge and experience, and if I / APEX screw up on our FAL parts listings or something related, I would expect him to let me know, same as he does for other companies or people posting here.

Richard
__________________
APEX Gun Parts 719-481-2050 OFFICE/order line
Mon-Fri 9am to 4:30pm MT www.apexgunparts.com
APEXgunparts is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 13:15   #138
ftierson
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 13827
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 15,409
Quote:
Originally Posted by NHBandit View Post
Wow.. for a racecar builder you really are a ******* moron. Apex sells mainly military surplus parts. They do not build guns or even employ any gunsmiths. The very nature of what they sell assumes that the buyer has some amount of capability. You have barely over 100 posts TOTAL and a good percentage of them are on this post. While I have had more than my share of disagreements with Mr Graham in the past he is spot on with his comments to you. And as much as he has a dislike for DSA I'm sure he would welcome the opportunity to praise them when they get it right. It makes his job so much easier. You accuse him of being buddies with the guys from Apex but from what I'm reading it's looking like you have some sort of personal beef with them. You haven't bought a kit and have ZERO personal knowledge of any issues with gas block fitment and the guys here who have bought them along with the new DSA barrels are reporting that they fit fine. However slight variations in fitment is sometimes the nature of the beast. I remember several years ago I bought a bunch of stripped South African barrels from one vendor and then a bunch of used gas blocks from Gunthings to complete them. Well guess what.. Some were extremely tight and some practically fell on. By swapping them around I got them all to be a nice press fit that I was happy with. If you're not capable of building a FAL from surplus as well as new parts don't buy one but there's nothing to be gained by you being the dog who humps everyone's leg on this post...
Apex is one of the best in the business as far as taking care of their customers yet here you are causing "much ado about nothing".. How about you just STFU and go away...
For what little it's all worth, this about sums up my thoughts on all this too...

By way of full disclosure, I consider Richard and Jeff (and others unnamed here) at APEX to be friends, and I don't use the word 'friend' loosely. I've seen the lengths they've gone to to guarantee that their customers are happy. They are great people to do business with, and their customer service is second to none.

Forrest
ftierson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 13:39   #139
sparkeyboaz
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 50566
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Good old Rocky Mtns
Posts: 1,027
For what it is worth, I agree with what you stated Forrest.
I too have been very grateful with what APEX Arms has done to help support my FAL addiction.
I was able to purchase some of the early BGS kits before they sold out.
Before that, I was just finding my parts a piece at a time.
Now, we have the opportunity once again to purchase some scarcer kits all due to APEX Arms making them available!
Thank you Richard.
Why some people take the liberty to try to TELL anyone how they should run their business is beyond me.
The power of suggestion used with TACT is often received much more readily.
Some people just have to try and force their ideas and beliefs off on everyone whereever they go!
I call BS! Take your ideas and keep them in CA!
Yes, I am bias! More CA people are moving to CO and f..king up a great state.
Just my opinion for what it's worth!
Sparkeyboaz
sparkeyboaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 17:38   #140
APEXgunparts
Registered
 
APEXgunparts's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 61867
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by ftierson View Post
For what little it's all worth, this about sums up my thoughts on all this too...

By way of full disclosure, I consider Richard and Jeff (and others unnamed here) at APEX to be friends, and I don't use the word 'friend' loosely. I've seen the lengths they've gone to to guarantee that their customers are happy. They are great people to do business with, and their customer service is second to none.

Forrest
Hello Forrest!
I appreciate you sharing those kind words about all of us here at APEX.
You have always taken the time to not only answer my questions but also explain to me the why/history behind those answers.
You have also let me know when you see a possible problem approaching.
That is the nice thing about having trusted friends, you can share the good and the bad with them.

Richard
__________________
APEX Gun Parts 719-481-2050 OFFICE/order line
Mon-Fri 9am to 4:30pm MT www.apexgunparts.com
APEXgunparts is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 19:55   #141
4markk
Military Observer
Gold Contributor
 
4markk's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 31134
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Army of Occupation of Northern Virginia
Posts: 5,056
I just received my Izzy barrel from APEX. Here is my preliminary observation.

The external measurements match my early FN Izzy LB very closely by placing them on each other.

Breech area is very smooth with what look likes proper feed guides.

Times around:
Amscorp = 10:00
IMBEL = 9:30
DSA = 10:00

Gasblock fit:
SA Gasblock = spins right around
Unmarked Lightening cut Gasblock: Goes on with hand pressure
NOS FN Gasblock = very good interference fit (needs to be pressed on)
NOS IZZY Open Ear Gasblock = very good interference fit (needs to be pressed on)
BGS Gasblock = very good interference fit (needs to be pressed on)
__________________
`
`
The difference between the possible and the impossible is only in the degree of a man's will. Chinese Proverb

“The worst thing about growing old is that other men stop seeing you as dangerous.” Act Of Valor

"A wise man gets more use from his enemies than a fool from his friends." Socrates
4markk is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 20:08   #142
otis61
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 26667
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: N.W.coast
Posts: 842
I ordered a kit from Apex on sunday. I was on my doorstep, halfway across the country yesterday.

That's pretty damn good in my book!!!
__________________
"We must indeed all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately" Ben Franklin
otis61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 20:22   #143
otis61
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 26667
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: N.W.coast
Posts: 842
And I just paid for the cheapest ground shipping.
__________________
"We must indeed all hang together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately" Ben Franklin
otis61 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 07, 2018, 21:47   #144
hkshooter
Mighty Fine!
Contributor
 
hkshooter's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 5391
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 6,570
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4markk View Post
I just received my Izzy barrel from APEX. Here is my preliminary observation.

The external measurements match my early FN Izzy LB very closely by placing them on each other.

Breech area is very smooth with what look likes proper feed guides.

Times around:
Amscorp = 10:00
IMBEL = 9:30
DSA = 10:00

Gasblock fit:
SA Gasblock = spins right around
Unmarked Lightening cut Gasblock: Goes on with hand pressure
NOS FN Gasblock = very good interference fit (needs to be pressed on)
NOS IZZY Open Ear Gasblock = very good interference fit (needs to be pressed on)
BGS Gasblock = very good interference fit (needs to be pressed on)
Perfect but for the timing. Still, better to time early than late.
__________________
How's your dog, Paden?
hkshooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 08, 2018, 08:20   #145
Abominog
Registered
 
Abominog's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 372
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Guadalcanal
Posts: 9,240
Richard @Apex?




Or Richard at Apex?




Richard's dog?

__________________
They will live a long time, these men of the South Pacific. They, like their victories, will be remembered as long as our generation lives. Longer and longer shadows will obscure them, until their Guadalcanal sounds distant on the ear like Shiloh and Valley Forge. --- Michener, Tales of the South Pacific

Tempus Edax Rerum
Abominog is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 08, 2018, 09:23   #146
rajah
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 61807
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: CA
Posts: 231
It didn't take long for this thread to degenerate to acrimony and name calling and that is a real shame.
__________________
rajah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 08, 2018, 09:52   #147
gunplumber
Arrogant Bastard
Gold Contributor
 
gunplumber's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 96
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Surprise, AZ
Posts: 24,809
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajah View Post
It didn't take long for this thread to degenerate to acrimony and name calling and that is a real shame.
It's not degeneration, unless bitch-slapping a low-life, lying, slandering, piece of shit like adam6955 is a bad thing.
__________________
T. Mark Graham, Master Gunsmith
Arizona Response Systems, LLC
gunplumber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Today, 11:48   #148
APEXgunparts
Registered
 
APEXgunparts's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 61867
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Colorado
Posts: 676
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abominog View Post
Richard @Apex?


I never had a head of hair like that, not even in High School.
Did have the beard though!
Never got carded when buying beer.

Richard
__________________
APEX Gun Parts 719-481-2050 OFFICE/order line
Mon-Fri 9am to 4:30pm MT www.apexgunparts.com
APEXgunparts is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files