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Old June 15, 2019, 12:56   #1
medicmike
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So Much For Saving His Life

First responders wake up an OD with Narcan and he opens fire on them.

In my experience they do tend to be more than a little pissed off when you wreck their high, even though they were so doped up they stopped breathing. I was never shot at for it but did have a few try to kick my ass, puke on me and smear sh#t on me.

The death of the firefighter could have been prevented had they done a proper head to toe assessment of the patient though, there was a definite failure there.


Bodycam footage of the shootout in the link below.

I think it's time to stop waking some these people up.


https://www.firefightingnews.com/bod...xsrAX_Ht5VbW5U
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Old June 15, 2019, 13:36   #2
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Watching this video made me so pissed off.

Upmost respect and support for LEO, firefighters and EMT who risk their lives to rescue this scum.
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Old June 15, 2019, 13:41   #3
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.............

I think it's time to stop waking any of these people up.


EFT.





........................
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Old June 15, 2019, 15:05   #4
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Old June 15, 2019, 15:19   #5
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It is a difficult field to work in and one never knows when one's life will be at risk. The dangerous part is a very small piece of the job....but when things go sour, they go sour very fast.

I'm dealing with these people in a hospital setting now, nearly every psyche, homeless, OD etc that we get I end up pulling a weapon of some sort off of them. And there are some absolutely batshit crazy people walking the streets.....healthcare worker's hands are tied most of the time....restraints, sedation, seclusion are very rarely used anymore, not allowed to hit back, only restrain.

We had a little gal in our ER last week that injured 3 nurses before she got locked in her room and shot full of Ativan and Haldol, even that, they only kept the door locked overnight and I had to keep chasing her down every time she tried to escape. When she was there we had 4 psyche patients in our tiny 9 bed ER at the same time, 2 suicidal, 1 homicidal and 1 just plain crazy....Most of the phyches that PD brings in they don't search or do a background check on, have had a few that I found out later were very bad actors on early release from the state mental hospital for murder, attempted murder, etc.


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Old June 15, 2019, 15:22   #6
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Whatch wanna bet he was a felon and didn't want to be caught with the gun? Sad about the EMT. I wonder if people brought into emergency rooms will soon have to be frisked.

The cop sure was dinging those poles with the pistol rounds. I thought it sounded like a garand clip hitting the pavement at first. Did the fat fugger think he was going to pull the gun and then run through yards ghetto style to escape? Looks like the cop tagged him early on a couple of times. Good shoot.
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Old June 15, 2019, 15:25   #7
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In my AO they've just approved body armor, helmets and handguns for first responders. All are already in use by some of the smaller cities in the county.

The events in that video are just fugged up. Should have shot his ass when his gun cleared the holster.
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Old June 15, 2019, 15:31   #8
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In my AO they've just approved body armor, helmets and handguns for first responders. All are already in use by some of the smaller cities in the county.
.
It is needed and has been a long time coming. My employer just took our body armor away with a promise of a better replacement but leaves my guys exposed until then
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Old June 15, 2019, 16:05   #9
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My son is a paramedic with EMS in North Carolina. His department had authorized soft body armor year before last just after he went to work for them. His new agency recently approved tactical vests to be carried in the bus and to be donned prior to arrival. The vests are equipped with Level V hard plates that will stand up to multiple hits from rifle rounds. His last agency in South Carolina had Level IIIa body armor issued for several years.
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Old June 16, 2019, 07:05   #10
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Dumb enough to OD, let them die. I know, I am cruel.
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Old June 16, 2019, 08:36   #11
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It is needed and has been a long time coming. My employer just took our body armor away with a promise of a better replacement but leaves my guys exposed until then
Please tell me you are still wearing some. Hell,I'll loan you a vest in the meantime.
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Old June 16, 2019, 12:49   #12
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Please tell me you are still wearing some. Hell,I'll loan you a vest in the meantime.
I have a concealable stab vest borrowed. They didn't like the looks of the plate carriers that had been issued to the guys years ago (and the kevlar was well past its shelf life). They are supposed to be getting us new concealable armor posthaste but the hospital system is a big bureaucracy and well know what speed they move at.
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Old June 16, 2019, 12:51   #13
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Dumb enough to OD, let them die. I know, I am cruel.
Not cruel, a bit jaded maybe...I am all for taking the warning labels off of everything and letting Darwin cleanse the gene pool a bit.
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Old June 16, 2019, 12:58   #14
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Probably more a liability thing,but Kevlar doesn't "expire" with time. Setting on a shelf in moderated conditions does nothing to degrade it. Its use and exposure that deteriorates it. Marketing probably has a role in it,too.
In any event,yes,happy you have something at least.
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Old June 16, 2019, 13:11   #15
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Probably more a liability thing,but Kevlar doesn't "expire" with time. Setting on a shelf in moderated conditions does nothing to degrade it. Its use and exposure that deteriorates it. Marketing probably has a role in it,too.
In any event,yes,happy you have something at least.
An injury or death while wearing expired gear opens a department up to a huge law suit. No set discard date will open the manufacturer up to even more litigation. Doesn’t matter if it’s sat on the shelf for nine of its ten year life.
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Old June 16, 2019, 13:36   #16
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Just because we can save someone from themselves,,,,,,,does not mean we need to take chances and save someone from themselves.

This fellow gave off several clues,,,,he was either going to fight or run,,,and folks present missed them all and kept pressing him.

The video shows a large man, able and fully capable.
He may have been down before,,but he was aware when the video was on.

Either take him down hard,,search him fully,,or simply let him walk away.
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Old June 16, 2019, 14:06   #17
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An injury or death while wearing expired gear opens a department up to a huge law suit. No set discard date will open the manufacturer up to even more litigation. Doesn’t matter if it’s sat on the shelf for nine of its ten year life.
^^^It is all about the liability, and at one of the larger hospitals a couple of the guys had ratty looking plate carriers when the head of security company wide was on an inspection = plate carriers removed from service within 24 hours.
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Old June 16, 2019, 14:25   #18
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Just because we can save someone from themselves,,,,,,,does not mean we need to take chances and save someone from themselves.

This fellow gave off several clues,,,,he was either going to fight or run,,,and folks present missed them all and kept pressing him.

The video shows a large man, able and fully capable.
He may have been down before,,but he was aware when the video was on.

Either take him down hard,,search him fully,,or simply let him walk away.
I don't know if it was PD or EMS that Narcan'd him, but the time to look is when he is out, only takes a few seconds and a quick physical exam should be done on EVERY patient. If done properly it will find most weapons, that one was obvious enough that it should have been found. Done while unconscious it removes most of the threat of the person resisting and any legal challenges for consent to search.

Yes he was acting quite sketchy and they usually do when you wake them up. Narcan kills the high and can put them into instant withdrawal. And when they are doped up enough to depress their breathing the high is really good, it is apparently one hell of a shock to them when it is yanked away. They often wake up puking and crapping themselves.


It is easy to get tunnel vision on calls, there is usually a lot of chaos on scene and we have to learn to focus on the patient and try to filter out a whole bunch more information that is trying to get to your brain. But you also have to be aware enough to notice threats. It can be quite a mental dance.

I remember a diabetic call from years ago. We arrived right behind the fire dept. They had an IV in and were just starting to push the D50 (dextrose). The old rancher started stirring and panicked because he woke up with a bunch of strangers in his house. His first reaction was to grab the Super Blackhawk in the holster hanging on his bedpost. I grabbed it from his hand, unloaded it and placed the revolver and ammo on his dresser. Had a little chat afterwards with him and suggested he keep it a little farther out of reach if he can't control his blood sugar. That one could have gone horribly bad, wasn't anyone's fault really...it's a job that sometimes shit just happens.

ETA: I learned quickly, the trick to Narcan is to titrate to respiratory effort, just enough IV to keep them breathing but not enough to totally bring them around. That way a refusal to transport wasn't a problem and they had already chemically restrained themselves so there was less risk of a fight. The nasal Narcan that PD is carrying doesn't give one the choice for that kind of finesse.
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― G.K. Chesterton, The Ballad of the White Horse

Last edited by medicmike; June 16, 2019 at 14:33.
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Old June 16, 2019, 14:39   #19
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ETA: I learned quickly, the trick to Narcan is to titrate to respiratory effort, just enough IV to keep them breathing but not enough to totally bring them around. That way a refusal to transport wasn't a problem and they had already chemically restrained themselves so there was less risk of a fight. The nasal Narcan that PD is carrying doesn't give one the choice for that kind of finesse.
Curious question. So when these people OD is their heart still beating? I wonder because if not and they are dead, how long before brain damage sets in where they can't just wake up and be back on their feet?
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Old June 16, 2019, 14:48   #20
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Curious question. So when these people OD is their heart still beating? I wonder because if not and they are dead, how long before brain damage sets in where they can't just wake up and be back on their feet?
The heart beats for a while after they stop breathing, usually they are breathing very slow and shallow....the system just kind of winds down. Probably 5 mins or so before brain damage starts setting in after they completely stop breathing. It's a slow progression to get there though. I would bet the guy in the story still had some respiratory effort but was doped up enough that he couldn't be aroused. GCS of 3 or 4 likely. Glasgow Coma Scale
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― G.K. Chesterton, The Ballad of the White Horse
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Old June 16, 2019, 15:02   #21
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The heart beats for a while after they stop breathing, usually they are breathing very slow and shallow....the system just kind of winds down. Probably 5 mins or so before brain damage starts setting in after they completely stop breathing. It's a slow progression to get there though. I would bet the guy in the story still had some respiratory effort but was doped up enough that he couldn't be aroused. GCS of 3 or 4 likely. Glasgow Coma Scale
Interesting. I never really cared anything about opioids except for cough syrup because it was very effective. I do remember 30 years or so ago that I got a tooth pulled and had taken a couple of codeine pain killers and decided to drink about 1/2 fifth of Cuervo in margaritas because of the pain. Hit me like a ton of bricks and noticed laying in the floor because I was dizzy as hell, that I had to actually make somewhat of a conscious effort to breath as my involuntary system was suppressed.
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Old June 16, 2019, 15:13   #22
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I don't know if it was PD or EMS that Narcan'd him, but the time to look is when he is out, only takes a few seconds and a quick physical exam should be done on EVERY patient. If done properly it will find most weapons, that one was obvious enough that it should have been found. Done while unconscious it removes most of the threat of the person resisting and any legal challenges for consent to search.

Yes he was acting quite sketchy and they usually do when you wake them up. Narcan kills the high and can put them into instant withdrawal. And when they are doped up enough to depress their breathing the high is really good, it is apparently one hell of a shock to them when it is yanked away. They often wake up puking and crapping themselves.


It is easy to get tunnel vision on calls, there is usually a lot of chaos on scene and we have to learn to focus on the patient and try to filter out a whole bunch more information that is trying to get to your brain. But you also have to be aware enough to notice threats. It can be quite a mental dance.

I remember a diabetic call from years ago. We arrived right behind the fire dept. They had an IV in and were just starting to push the D50 (dextrose). The old rancher started stirring and panicked because he woke up with a bunch of strangers in his house. His first reaction was to grab the Super Blackhawk in the holster hanging on his bedpost. I grabbed it from his hand, unloaded it and placed the revolver and ammo on his dresser. Had a little chat afterwards with him and suggested he keep it a little farther out of reach if he can't control his blood sugar. That one could have gone horribly bad, wasn't anyone's fault really...it's a job that sometimes shit just happens.

ETA: I learned quickly, the trick to Narcan is to titrate to respiratory effort, just enough IV to keep them breathing but not enough to totally bring them around. That way a refusal to transport wasn't a problem and they had already chemically restrained themselves so there was less risk of a fight. The nasal Narcan that PD is carrying doesn't give one the choice for that kind of finesse.
Yea, I always removed all weapons away from my wounded,,,and them guys liked to have a LOT of weapons on them at all times,,,occupational hazard.

Injured people can do some wild stuff when hurt badly.

Hand grenades were my concern, as well as knives.

Guys would take the bend over off the carter key for their grenades, so just a straight wire, easy to pull in a hurry,,touchy when handling.

Everyone carried two or three blades. Me included.

Self inflicted injuries, adults, drugs and drunks,,,they want to kill themselves, let'em alone.
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Old June 16, 2019, 15:33   #23
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Guys would take the bend over off the carter key for their grenades, so just a straight wire, easy to pull in a hurry,,touchy when handling.
Cotter key, maybe?

"What is a Carter key?"

"It is a cotter key or cotter pin (not carter). In the United States, cotter pin (also known as a cotter key[1] or a split pin) is a metal fastener with two tines that are bent during installation, similar to a staple or rivet. Typically made of wire with a half-circular cross section, cotter pins come in multiple sizes and types."
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Old June 16, 2019, 15:40   #24
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Cotter key, maybe?

"What is a Carter key?"

"It is a cotter key or cotter pin (not carter). In the United States, cotter pin (also known as a cotter key[1] or a split pin) is a metal fastener with two tines that are bent during installation, similar to a staple or rivet. Typically made of wire with a half-circular cross section, cotter pins come in multiple sizes and types."
Give him a break, #1 he's from the south AKA redneck #2 He a wood working type kinda guy.
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Old June 16, 2019, 15:45   #25
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Give him a break, #1 he's from the south AKA redneck #2 He a wood working type kinda guy.
Thank you!!!!

English in any form,,,, is a second language for me!

A cau---ur--tee key is a cotter key.
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Old June 16, 2019, 15:53   #26
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A cau---ur--tee key is a cotter key.
9 out of 10 people I worked with in maintenance down south said it like carter. It's the drawl. I have it too. The other 10% were from up north. North Carolina is the worst and had not a clue what they were saying.
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Old June 16, 2019, 19:13   #27
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9 out of 10 people I worked with in maintenance down south said it like carter. It's the drawl. I have it too. The other 10% were from up north. North Carolina is the worst and had not a clue what they were saying.
I'm guilty on all counts!!!

A group of southern hill county folks,,,well,,,them Navajo code talkers got nuthin on us.
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