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View Poll Results: How accurate is your FAL?
I've never fired two consecutive 5-shot groups 30 8.40%
I've never fired two consecutive 5-shot groups, but I think my rifle would hold 2 MOA 22 6.16%
I've never achieved 2 MOA with my FAL, but I think a better shooter or better ammo could reliably do 2 MOA 48 13.45%
I have no FAL that will reliably provide 2 MOA accuracy 76 21.29%
I sure as hell do have a FAL that will reliably provide 2 MOA accuracy 181 50.70%
Voters: 357. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 15, 2008, 12:34   #1
W.E.G.
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How accurate is your FAL? ** 2 consec. 5-shot groups from the MAG

How accurate is your FAL?

For the purpose of this thread, we will go by two consecutive five-shot groups, and each round fired FROM THE MAGAZINE by normal operation of the FAL self-loading gas system.

Close the bolt on the first round by whatever means you like. But, the last four shots of the group have to feed by the function of the gas system and the springs.

Your "score" is the group-size of the WORST group of the two consecutive 5-shot groups.

Fire as many groups as you want, but you gotta go with two CONSECUTIVE groups.

For the sake of practicality, we'll put a 30-minute time limit on it from the time of the first shot of the first group to the last shot of the last group.

No single-shots fed into the chamber.

No single-shots fed from the mag.

You gotta put 5 rounds in the magazine, and fire the rounds in normal sequence by letting the rifle operate in its conventional self-loading manner.

In case this "2 MOA" thing has you puzzled, I mean two-inch groups, with shot-holes measured center-to-center, at 100 yards.

If your only 2 MOA FAL is something with major modifications or otherwise consists of unique features, please make that clear in the comments below.

Pics of targets are not required, but would certainly add to the interest of this thread.
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Old September 15, 2008, 13:37   #2
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3 MOA is about the best I can do with either of my FALS. Targets below are 2 x 10 rounds groups after sighting in a scope at 100 yards. Outdoor range. Very little wind, about 89 F. Both groups were fired from the magazine with the gun resting on a front bag. The magazine was loaded with 20 rounds from the same SA Mil Surp brown cardboard box then the 2x 10 round groups fired at different targets. The red bull is 3" across. Targets are shown in the order they were shot. No 'cool down' time between either target or any of the rounds. As the barrel heated up the group drifted from lower left to upper right, as you can maybe see in the group pattern.




This is the gun.



3 MOA is about it.
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Old September 15, 2008, 13:42   #3
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A 4" group @ 200 yards = 2moa if I'm not mistaken...

Here is the beast responsible:



And no, I don't use 30rd mags in this rifle, they're just for show! The feed-ramps (It's a Coonan) in this rifle aren't ample enough to work well with the DSA 30rd mags. My other FAL loves 'em though.

For those of you wondering, here is the tale of the tape for the rifle used:

Receiver: Dan Coonan (USA)
Lower: R1A1 (South African)
HTS: FSA (USA)
Furniture: x2 Penguin, x1 DSA (USA)
Barrel: Imbel, Chrome-lined 21"
Bolt: South African
Bolt-Carrier: British Sand-cut Inch Pattern (not in the picture)
Magazine used in group: Steyr 20rd


The group was made in the 70's with low humidity and almost zero wind. Original iron sights were used in the group. I have my better-than 20/20 vision to thank for that.
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Old September 15, 2008, 13:47   #4
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I have 3 questions before I do this, all of which could have a big effect on the results.

First: Rifle held, held supported, or from bench/sandbags?
Second: Mil-surp only, or can handloads be used?
Third: Irons, scopes or either?

Also a suggestion.
Have the things like position, sights, wind & so on as part of the respones.
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Old September 15, 2008, 14:11   #5
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I'm in ifi'n it's confined to shootin. I'm tired of politics.


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Old September 15, 2008, 14:20   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by brownknees
I have 3 questions before I do this, all of which could have a big effect on the results.

First: Rifle held, held supported, or from bench/sandbags?
Second: Mil-surp only, or can handloads be used?
Third: Irons, scopes or either?

Also a suggestion.
Have the things like position, sights, wind & so on as part of the respones.
You can clench it in your bum for all I care.
Ammo from God Himself is fully permissible.
You can use irons, scopes AND a laser if you like - arfcom approves

As always on the FAL Files, thoughtful comments are most welcom.
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Old September 15, 2008, 14:27   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by W.E.G.


You can clench it in your bum for all I care.
Ammo from God Himself is fully permissible.
You can use irons, scopes AND a laser if you like - arfcom approves

As always on the FAL Files, thoughtful comments are most welcom.
I'm sorry if I phrased this the wrong way, I was just trying to ask questions that I thought might be helpfull.

The thinking behind my question is that you might get more shooter variability than rifle variability with different methods and ammo being used.
I'll pop off some rounds & post the results.
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Old September 15, 2008, 14:57   #8
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I'm always pleasantly surprised to get the occasional 2 MOA. No way I'm getting "reliable" 2 MOA. Between the vertical stringing and the fliers and the bad shooting, it just ain't happenin' with the FAL. I never tried it with any high-zoot match ammo though. That must be it.... it's the ammo's fault.... mostly Port. surplus.
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Old September 15, 2008, 16:20   #9
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here is my accurate FAL

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...hreadid=219482
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Old September 15, 2008, 17:41   #10
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well shucky durn, now I just gotta go clean the thing and take her out for a group shot, err, uhh make that take her out and shoot groups!!

With my eyesight, 2 inches is pretty much out of the question.............but I will try, this weekend I hope
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Old September 15, 2008, 20:46   #11
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Lotta "claimers" without comment up there in that poll.
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Old September 15, 2008, 20:46   #12
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Mine will barely hold the ten ring at 100 with Port, so I guess that makes it a three-minute gun.
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Old September 15, 2008, 20:53   #13
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> Lotta "claimers" without comment up there in that poll.

Right. There is a lotta 'all hat and no cattle' going on there. The only thing that counts here is evidence. Still, if we come to the conclusion that a FAL is a 2 to 3 MOA gun with very few being better and many being much worse, who is going to dispute that ? I mean, isn't that what the British army 'admitted' when it developed the L42 as the precision rifle in parallel with the L1A1 ?
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Old September 15, 2008, 21:07   #14
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I was kind of hoping this thread would serve as a reality check for those "cattlemen" you speak of.

So far, it sure doesn't seem like much of an HONESTY check.

I mean, we already got TEN GUYS who would bet money they could shoot two back-to-back groups from the magazine into 2 MOA.

I think most of 'em is or at least
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Old September 15, 2008, 21:10   #15
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I think you are right.
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Old September 15, 2008, 21:14   #16
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BTW, I am still very impressed at that group you shot from your DPMS 308. It making me think REALLY hard 'bout how to sweet talk the wife on to one of those. May even sell a FAL to finance that. The Spanish Inquisition would rip my trigger finger off for that thought !
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Old September 15, 2008, 21:41   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by W.E.G.
I mean, we already got TEN GUYS who would bet money they could shoot two back-to-back groups from the magazine into 2 MOA.
I'd take some of that action.
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Old September 15, 2008, 22:03   #18
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Since my range has a new 100 yard line I will try next week. From the mag and take pics. I am taking my last vacation spending 8 days shooting and relaxing. post back on the 27th. I will not vote until then.

Will also try this with the PSL and SAR3 for fun. The only thing I can say is it will be honest.

P.S. I did look at the results and except for one person (not me) nobody that has shot the HP targets at Falfest could claim this (translating the 200yard prone score to 100yards) in three years.

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Old September 15, 2008, 22:17   #19
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i took 2nd at the king shoot, offhand....

i'll try it with me para....

think it'll/i'll do pretty good....
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Old September 15, 2008, 22:47   #20
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I didn't answer the poll because I have not shot two 5 shot groups. I also haven't sighted this gun in at a 100yds. As you can see by this picture it will hold a decent group at 25yd so the gun is probably capable of shooting 2" groups at 100. Once I get all the paper flat it's about 4/10" group. Am I thinking right that if this group was projected out to 100yds it would be about 2"?

I have got a two different 5 shot groups out of Ol'Dirty before but not consecutively.

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Old September 15, 2008, 23:11   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by jerrymrc
[
P.S. I did look at the results and except for one person (not me) nobody that has shot the HP targets at Falfest could claim this (translating the 200yard prone score to 100yards) in three years. [/B]
Jerry, that's not exactly apples to apples on that comparison to compare Falfest to this test. Falfest was at prone and most people didn't have any type of support if I remember correctly. Oh yeah that one guy was just showing off because he had one eye closed.

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Old September 15, 2008, 23:25   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by James
if this group was projected out to 100yds it would be about 2"?
Well, yeah.

Mathematically, a 0.4" group at 25 yards is 1.6 MOA.

While I think reverse extrapolations are probably OK for "proof" of 100-yard capability,
I've had some real disappointments with forward extrapolations.
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Old September 15, 2008, 23:34   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by W.E.G.


While I think reverse extrapolations are probably OK for "proof" of 100-yard capability,
I've had some real disappointments with forward extrapolations.
Oh I agree with you on this. It's a lot easier to see that target at 25 than 100 and that probably where most people lose it. The gun can do it but the shooter can't.

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Old September 15, 2008, 23:43   #24
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Yeah and if the bullet is corkscrewing its way to the target, the angle of deflection actually can grow as it moves downrange. That's one way for 1.6 MOA 25-yard ammo to turn into 5 MOA ammo at 100 yards.
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Old September 15, 2008, 23:58   #25
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I just wasn't sure if you could think of that way. To be on the safe side you just have to shoot it at 100yds.

What causes a bullet corkscrew? Bullet not balanced?

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Old September 16, 2008, 00:41   #26
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Well crap! I shoulda taken pix of my groups last winter. Now I have to go shoot some.
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Old September 16, 2008, 01:38   #27
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I have one that has done 2" groups (10 shot) at 200. Another I have no idea, and a third I hope will do MOA that I'll try in two weeks.

After I get the third tuned up, I hear there's a smartass-coyote season in VA. Apparently the place is overrun with 'em!

hehehe
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Old September 16, 2008, 02:10   #28
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pics, pics, more pics....
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Old September 16, 2008, 03:31   #29
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Picked up slightly used SA58 Jan. '07,,,really haven't had it out that much. I think the best thing I could do to improve things is to replace an extremely crappy trigger.

My M80 type reloads shoot on about a par with what is apparently considered 'FAL' accuracy.

To date, the best I've done is about 2-1/8" w/ PRIVI M80 (type),,,but not back to back.

I've got some 'Malay' that looks promising,,,I'm hoping my reloads will show some improvement,,,,I have to try to get to the range more. Obligations (yes, everyone has them) and the hunting season at this point are conspiring against me.
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Old September 16, 2008, 03:34   #30
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Just tried the poll,,,but my session is 'INVALID',,,?
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Old September 16, 2008, 07:11   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Illurian00
Just tried the poll,,,but my session is 'INVALID',,,?
Are you on AOL?
It won't let you vote in polls.
You can do this if you want to vote.
Open AOL & get logged in.
Minimize AOL.
Open Internet explorer.
Go to FALFiles & log in.
Now you can post & vote in polls.
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Old September 16, 2008, 09:24   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by James
I just wasn't sure if you could think of that way. To be on the safe side you just have to shoot it at 100yds.

What causes a bullet corkscrew? Bullet not balanced?

James
All bullets corkscrew to some degree.

If you think about it, how could any spinning bullet leaving a rifle barrel be perfectly stabilized?

Not possible.

That's why some rifles shoot bullets of a particular weight better than others. The relationship of the twist-rate of the rifling, coupled with the weight of the bullet will provide a particular level of stability to the flight of the bullet. Of course, that comment does not attempt to address other issues like muzzle-crown, headspace consistency, bullet "jump," etc., etc.

If a bullet is very badly stabilized, we know it will "keyhole" on the target.
In other words, it hits the paper "sorta sideways."

In the context of keyholing and corkscrewing, the bullet will be corkscrewing badly as the ass-end of the bullet begins to overtake the nose of the bullet. The distance from the muzzle, at which this process of corkscrewing and keyhole-flight begins, can vary dramatically depending on velocity and range.

I've seen ammo that was plenty accurate at 200 yards, hit the paper sideways at 600 yards.

A 25 yard target just gets you started in the right direction to getting a sight zero. But, that's about all it can tell you about how it will perform downrange.

Please understand too that use of words like "corkscrewing" is an attempt to use common verbiage to describe a theoretical physical behavior. I apologize if my terminology may be confusing or not precisely analogous.
What I really mean to say is this:
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig12.htm
flavored with this
http://www.nennstiel-ruprecht.de/bullfly/fig13.htm
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Old September 16, 2008, 09:39   #33
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I have no idea how mine is. I haven't been to a real rifle range in over a decade and have never benched the FAL.

But next time I am out I'll take pictures of the old washing machines and toilets I shot if you want.
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Old September 16, 2008, 09:52   #34
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I voted, and I've posted targets in 'Ammo' and in 'Reviews' both in the last year. I definitely have one FAL, and maybe two, that will shoot 2" x 5 shot groups. Over and over and over.

Anybody wanting to put money against that is going to be donating to my ammo hoard.

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Old September 16, 2008, 10:44   #35
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sheeite .my 38 super throws better groups than some of the your rifles ....im throwin 5 inch groups (dead pop can)with a .22 and a mirror .facing away ..at 100 and rarely miss it ...amuses my buddies ..hehe ..


try practice ....and if your shooting 100 yds and 5 inch..there is a PLUS,,,,,,look at it this way .jugs at 500 .....fer get it ..it will save ya ammo

http://community-1.webtv.net/ggiilliiee/target/


geeeze its ony 100 yds ....ted williams cn go better than 5" ...

ya need another catagory..how many consecutive 20 round mags at 500 ..hehe

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Old September 16, 2008, 11:11   #36
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I don't how accurate mine is either. I can't remember the last time I could afford to fire two 5-shot groups.
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Old September 16, 2008, 13:12   #37
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I would be the happyest guy in the world if ANY of my FAL's would consistantly shoot 2MOA with surplus ammo and iron sights off sandbags.

And Id get rid of any M-14/M-1A that didnt.
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Old September 16, 2008, 13:14   #38
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I need to find a range that has more than 25 yards - without driving an hour away
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Old September 16, 2008, 13:18   #39
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Old September 16, 2008, 13:49   #40
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I think you should allow 6 rds in the mag and 5 shots.

I have found that the FAL will throw the last rd to a different POI when it locks open on an empty mag.

Here is a 8 shot group I shot @ 200 yds, rapid fire off an ammo can.

I was shooting as fast as I could but still having the target in my sight picture, so this group could have been much better if I was actually shooting for group size.
I was practicing for speed and just hitting the target, not group size.



If you drop the low shot this factors into a 2moa group

Last edited by moses; September 16, 2008 at 14:22.
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Old September 16, 2008, 15:03   #41
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just not quite good enough, eh?





just kiddin. thats a FINE group for 200 yrds.
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Old September 16, 2008, 15:28   #42
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Yeah not quite!

I was shooting fast, like I said before just to hit the target not to get a small group.
Probably a shot a second.

I have shot 1 1/2" groups @ 200 yds with this FAL when shooting for group size
but I didn't save the targets.

The only reason I had this target was I shot it 2 weeks ago when I was practicing for the match last weekend and haven't thrown it away yet.

I'll take this FAL next range trip and shoot for group size.
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Old September 16, 2008, 15:36   #43
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I have 3 FAL's that moses helped build that will shoot into 2 inches @ 100 yds. consistently.
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Old September 16, 2008, 15:46   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by moses
I think you should allow 6 rds in the mag and 5 shots.
For you Johnny, I will make any concession you require.

For you, and anybody else, who can shamelessly belt-out a smokin' rendition of "Detroit - Rock City."

Fix that one gaffe with the lyrics I seen on the old vid, and y'all are completely GTG.

Is that vid still up somewhere?

Cool in the shade.

23 hats now.
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Old September 16, 2008, 16:06   #45
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Cool

"I was practicing for speed and just hitting the target, not group size."

Yep, some of us could tell he had been practicing.
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Old September 16, 2008, 16:55   #46
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I voted.

My Imbel/Imbel 16.25" will put four of those five shots inside of 2 MOA - but the first round will dip about 5" low from point-of-aim. That's with using the "slingshot" technique to charge the first round (pull charging handle back as far as it'll go, and then let go).

Any ideas why? I've been meaning to try charging the first round by pulling down the BHO and letting the bolt close from that position, but haven't had a chance yet.
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Old September 16, 2008, 17:10   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Eric Bryant
Any ideas why?
Most likely because the bolt engages the locking shoulder differently when you slingshot it, versus letting the gas system do the work.

Resizing the cases so they give just 0.001" crush on chambering might tighten groups a little bit. But, for safety reasons, that practice kind of gives me the creeps. I'd rather have a 4 MOA group, than have a 2 MOA group from a FAL to brag about at the price of increased risk of a slam fire, or out of battery discharge. Never mind that ammo getting mixed up with the ammo for "my other rifles," and causing all sorts of headaches.

Maybe even better groups if you went for the 0.001" crush on the shoulder, and with the ogive kissing the rifling. We already know that kind of ammo will be too long to feed through the mag. So, you will be single-feeding if you go that way with it. There is a definite "knack" to closing the bolt consistently when single-feeding.

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Old September 16, 2008, 17:13   #48
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I reckon the L1A1 that the gman built up for me to use will do it but probably not with my eyesight.
I put 10 shots into 1 1/2" @ 50yds with it using irons & clipped the centre dot on the King Match target (thankee Lady Luck ) offhand.

If I get time, then I'll give it a bash whilst I'm over next month.
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Old September 16, 2008, 17:24   #49
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Weg. try here http://www.ronnierogers.com/blackgla...roitvideo.html

Also go to youtube and search Black Glass or Black Glass band
there are a bunch of newer video's now.

Thanks for rockin with us!
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Old September 16, 2008, 18:09   #50
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who can afford 10 rounds of ammo for testing? Youse guys much be rich as croesus
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