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Old October 27, 2018, 11:21   #1
BarnOwlLover
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Worst or weirdest machine gun ever.

I know that the Chauchat would probably top the list for most, but here's some analysis on that issue. First, the gun was cheaply built for production reasons (like the Sten SMG during World War II), and most of the gun's jamming was from crap getting into the open magazine. Reportedly, 75% of the weapon's malfunctions were magazine related.

It should be noted that, mag issues aside, the 8mm Lebel versions actually usually worked--somewhat at least, until it overheated due to the different expansion rate between the steel barrel and the aluminum cooling shroud. The .30-06 versions were horrible, mostly because of improper chamber dimensions.

That all being said, I'd say that the Italian Breda Model 30 was even worse. It was complex and expensive to manufacture, not particularly reliable, especially in dirty or dusty conditions, and used a short recoil mechanism that didn't allow for sufficient primary extraction, so the cartridges needed to be oiled before chambered.

Also, in the weird entry, there's the Italian Fiat Revelli M1914. It was a heavy as a Maxim MG, but chambered for the relatively under-powered 6.5 Carcano round. It used a short recoil/almost delayed blowback action similar to the Revelli M1910 automatic pistol, but the strangest part of the weapon was the feed system. It used a "cage" magazine that consisted sort of of 10 Carcano enbloc clips welded together. In addition to being simply odd, it was easily damaged and wore out quickly.

There was also an attempt to modernize the M1914 as the M1935. It was rebarreled in 8x59mm Breda, converted to belt feed and was air cooled instead of water cooled. It should've lead to a better weapon, but it didn't. It actually resulted in one of the worst medium machine guns I could name. It fired from a closed breach, which in combination with the air cooled barrel, meant that the barrel rapidly overheated. And though the M1914 was able to extract rounds without a oiler, the M35 needed a fluted chamber and sometimes oiled rounds to ensure extraction.

Anyone got thoughts or opinions on these or other MGs?
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Old October 27, 2018, 13:11   #2
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Our club had a big full auto following for a number of years. Had a spring full auto shoot that was more fun than most would believe and I was heavily involved. Several guys came up with Chuchats on the firing line and I got to witness the first one at the club to ever shoot full auto. Yep I saw all three rounds fire before it jamed.
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Old October 27, 2018, 13:28   #3
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The Chauchat and the Breda definitely have to rank up there as total POS. The japs in WW2 had some piece of crap machine guns as well.

On our end, I think the Reising sub gun was a piece of crap not suited for the battlefield.
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Old October 27, 2018, 14:47   #4
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I seem to recall a jap machinegun you had to dump oil on the rounds to get them to feed and extract.
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Old October 27, 2018, 16:17   #5
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I seem to recall a jap machinegun you had to dump oil on the rounds to get them to feed and extract.
From memory, many of their designs required oiled cartridges. Though I wonder how much of that had to do with the design of the cartridge case (i.e. not enough taper) as opposed to the MG itself.

Seems to me Italy had at least one MG that also required the cases to be oiled at the breech.
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Old October 27, 2018, 16:55   #6
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Think I found it...


https://youtu.be/nFJI04ifSoM
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Old October 27, 2018, 17:01   #7
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The Charlton Automatic Rifle certainly rates as unusual...maybe not the worst...but unusual.
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Old October 27, 2018, 17:07   #8
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The japs in WW2 had some piece of crap machine guns as well. .
Which was that? The one based on the Hotchkiss, Bren, Vickers, or Browning? I know a lot of Jap MGs but not one that’s crap.

And none of them one had to dump oil on them. oilers were part of the design and not a bad idea for the time.

This hearsay ignorance is almost as bad as watching CNN.
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Old October 27, 2018, 17:09   #9
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The Charlton Automatic Rifle certainly rates as unusual...maybe not the worst...but unusual.
Dude IIRC there were two made. If he mounted the mag properly the design would have worked well.
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Old October 27, 2018, 20:26   #10
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Here's a pretty big piece of junk, the Knorr Bremse LMG:

http://modernfirearms.net/en/machine...remse-m40-eng/
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Old October 27, 2018, 21:08   #11
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Speaking of oilers, the Japanese Type 11 had an oil bottle attached to the receiver. Plus it was butt ugly.

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Old October 27, 2018, 21:16   #12
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Dude IIRC there were two made. If he mounted the mag properly the design would have worked well.
.... there were I believe closer to 1500-2000 of them from what I have read, made mostly in NZ but Whirlpool or Electrolux made some here in Aus as well. The examples in service in NZ were mostly destroyed post WW2 I believe.
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Old October 29, 2018, 07:57   #13
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The U.S. Army's M73/M73E1/M219-series of coaxial mounted tank MGs have to be right up there in the top 10 worst MGs ever. Ask anyone who's ever operated or tried to repair one. Replacing that POS with the M240 was one of the best moves the Army ever made, IMHO.

It was a good idea - a very small receiver, easily adaptable from left to right-hand feed, but way overly complicated and totally unreliable.

https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...73+machine+gun
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Old October 30, 2018, 05:31   #14
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.... there were I believe closer to 1500-2000 of them from what I have read, made mostly in NZ but Whirlpool or Electrolux made some here in Aus as well. The examples in service in NZ were mostly destroyed post WW2 I believe.
Yep, a bunch built
Long Branch played with them in Canada as well

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Old October 30, 2018, 11:47   #15
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.... there were I believe closer to 1500-2000 of them from what I have read, made mostly in NZ but Whirlpool or Electrolux made some here in Aus as well. The examples in service in NZ were mostly destroyed post WW2 I believe.
The NZ Police have one of the remaining fully functional ones in their armoury in Upper Hutt. It's a collection that only a few ever get to see ...
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Old October 30, 2018, 11:53   #16
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The .30-06 versions were horrible, mostly because of improper chamber dimensions.
Run a finishing reamer through the chamber and see if it doesn't work better. The authors figure either incompetence or sabotage was to blame, so flip a coin.
Ref: https://www.amazon.com/Honour-Bound-.../dp/0889351902

You want a stupid weapon, try the M73.
https://tankandafvnews.com/2015/08/0...x-machine-gun/
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Old October 30, 2018, 12:13   #17
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.... there were I believe closer to 1500-2000 of them from what I have read, made mostly in NZ but Whirlpool or Electrolux made some here in Aus as well. The examples in service in NZ were mostly destroyed post WW2 I believe.


My error. I was thinking about the McCrudden LMR Mk.1
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Old October 31, 2018, 20:37   #18
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And all this time ...

... I thought this thread was going to be about the M11 with a LAGE gen 1 upper! I bought one that was on a semi lower because it looked cool and it jammed every 7-8 rounds, then I bought a transferable M11 and it came with both 6" and a LAGE gen 1 ... So now I'm the proud owner of 2 and neither one run worth a crap!

It runs fine with the original 6" upper at around 6-700rpm ... The 6" also runs fine on the semi lower ... go figure
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Old November 01, 2018, 13:24   #19
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Website articles detailing most of the weapons that I've brought up and some others:

https://www.defensemedianetwork.com/...hine-guns-lmg/
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Old November 01, 2018, 13:27   #20
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Villar Perosa is pretty weird. I guess they did work, but “work for what?” is the question.
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Old November 01, 2018, 13:50   #21
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Villar Perosa is pretty weird. I guess they did work, but “work for what?” is the question.
It was originally supposed to be a LMG for Italian alpine troops during World War I. Most were later split in half to make the Beretta M1918 and Villar Perosa OVP SMGs.
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Old November 01, 2018, 20:53   #22
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Our club had a big full auto following for a number of years. Had a spring full auto shoot that was more fun than most would believe and I was heavily involved. Several guys came up with Chuchats on the firing line and I got to witness the first one at the club to ever shoot full auto. Yep I saw all three rounds fire before it jamed.
Original caliber or the "American-improved" model? Ian from forgottenweapons seems to believe that the only way he could make one in its original caliber not fire a full magazine -- which was supposed to be disposable -- in full auto is to use a damaged magazine. And other nations kept using them way after WWI in other calibers when they all could have bought BARs.

"The sights were actually offset to the left to account for the impossibility of a cheek weld against the stock."

Maybe they were not designed to comply with US Army regulations perhaps? As Ian demonstrated, there is a right, thought to French soldiers using it, and a wrong way to hold it prone.

But, yes, it deserves to be the worst machine gun ever, which explain why they only made around 260000 of them and then the Polish and the Belgium made copies.
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Old November 01, 2018, 21:14   #23
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Honestly, the weirdest most unergonomic gun I have fired was a smg. A sten. It feels like a stamped, wire stocked, cheap piece. Close 2nd? Tec-9.
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Old November 02, 2018, 10:35   #24
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Honestly, the weirdest most unergonomic gun I have fired was a smg. A sten. It feels like a stamped, wire stocked, cheap piece. Close 2nd? Tec-9.
The Sten is fun to shoot though. I recently shot a Mk 5 and while it's heavier it's more ergonomic with the foregrip, pistol grip and a nicer wood stock. I've also shot a Mk 3, which was as bare bones as the Sten got.

That reminds me of one weird one I shot, the Madsen M50. The receiver is a clamshell design of two steel stampings that hinges at the butt stock and is held together with the barrel nut. The other oddity is the magazine well safety that must be depressed so it can only be shot two handed. Looking at it close up you wonder how it will all hold together but it does and it's pleasant to shoot.
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Old November 02, 2018, 11:27   #25
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The Sten is fun to shoot though. I recently shot a Mk 5 and while it's heavier it's more ergonomic with the foregrip, pistol grip and a nicer wood stock. I've also shot a Mk 3, which was as bare bones as the Sten got.

That reminds me of one weird one I shot, the Madsen M50. The receiver is a clamshell design of two steel stampings that hinges at the butt stock and is held together with the barrel nut. The other oddity is the magazine well safety that must be depressed so it can only be shot two handed. Looking at it close up you wonder how it will all hold together but it does and it's pleasant to shoot.
We had a guy in the sub gun matches that used a Madsen M50 to win first place many times. They have great trigger control and point so natural he did most of his shooting from the hip. Never saw it jam and I was RO in most of the monthly matches.
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Old November 02, 2018, 12:55   #26
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Now some videos:

M1915 Chauchat:



Breda Model 30:



Japanese Type 11 LMG:



And here's a pretty weird one, the OVP Villar Perosa SMG that I referenced earlier:

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Old November 02, 2018, 18:19   #27
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This one is rather odd but innovative with some interesting features;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3vH7LgvuL4
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Old April 18, 2019, 22:44   #28
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It lives! Necro-thread revived...

As unergonomic as they are, Stens are kinda fun to shoot though.

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Old April 23, 2019, 04:34   #29
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I REALLY want one but firing it and trying to hit anything is an experience in frustration, the schnellfeuer
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Old April 24, 2019, 00:13   #30
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... I thought this thread was going to be about the M11 with a LAGE gen 1 upper! I bought one that was on a semi lower because it looked cool and it jammed every 7-8 rounds, then I bought a transferable M11 and it came with both 6" and a LAGE gen 1 ... So now I'm the proud owner of 2 and neither one run worth a crap!

It runs fine with the original 6" upper at around 6-700rpm ... The 6" also runs fine on the semi lower ... go figure
My Ingram M11's run dedicated solid perfect unless find a specific ammo they don't like. Have the original Sionics suppressors and were almost useless till decent laser sights hit the market. Now just put the dot on the target and let 1,000+ rpm turn it to trash. Love my lititle M11's.
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Old April 27, 2019, 10:37   #31
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My Chauchat Mle1915 runs perfectly with PPU ammo. The question I ask everyone is: "It's 1917, you want a light, man-portable rifle-caliber, full-auto weapon that can be fired in the assault. Find something better than a Chauchat."

The French made 250,000 during WW1. The Germans used captured ones as long as they had ammo. Many countries used them in other calibers including 8mm, 7mm, and 7.65mm.

Yes, the magazines suck. Yes, the ergonomics are pretty bad. And they are difficult to fire accurately. But at 18 pounds, they can be easily managed by one person. The next best is the Lewis at 28 pounds. But they are difficult to manage while in the assault, and changing magazines takes two hands.

Remember, the BAR did not enter combat until October 1918. Barely one month of combat use in WW1.

To my mind, to qualify for this category, there had to have been better choices available. The US M-73/M-219 are certainly contestants. So is the US M-60. But the Italian Breda pretty much takes the cake for poorest design with much better choices available at the time.
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Old May 01, 2019, 00:14   #32
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I really don't know much about some of these posted here .. But I'd actually say the M2 Carbine sux pretty bad .. that "9 Spring" setup is a pretty weak design .. you need a pocket full of 'em , plus the cartridge is sooooooooo weak .. it does makes a nice pistol round in a Ruger SA revolver ..

The best I've shot would be the M4 .. I haven't shot many FA rifles .. M2 - M4 - M14 - UZI - AK47 & 74 .. Both of the AKs are sweet .. M4 is just plain bad to the bone IMHO .. Do not want a squad of Marines looking for me with 'em in their hands ..

pretty sure that French thing ranks up there with the worst ever manuf. .. from what little I've seen on the Military channel they put the suck in suck .. !
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Old May 01, 2019, 00:23   #33
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This hearsay ignorance is almost as bad as watching CNN.
LOL .. he said the Clinton News Network .. almost as bad as MSLSD & Rachael Madcow ..
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Old May 01, 2019, 20:44   #34
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I really don't know much about some of these posted here .. But I'd actually say the M2 Carbine sux pretty bad .. that "9 Spring" setup is a pretty weak design .. you need a pocket full of 'em , plus the cartridge is sooooooooo weak .. it does makes a nice pistol round in a Ruger SA revolver ..

The best I've shot would be the M4 .. I haven't shot many FA rifles .. M2 - M4 - M14 - UZI - AK47 & 74 .. Both of the AKs are sweet .. M4 is just plain bad to the bone IMHO .. Do not want a squad of Marines looking for me with 'em in their hands ..

pretty sure that French thing ranks up there with the worst ever manuf. .. from what little I've seen on the Military channel they put the suck in suck .. !
Kinda' curious why you think the M2 sux so badly ?

First the round
It has considerably more power than either the 9mm Parabellum or the Soviet 7.62x24mm. I always found it just laughable that some considered the carbine round weak. It's a damn serious round out of an 18" barrel
I know, Mp40s just look Kooler right

That design
well you never pulled the 9 spring in the field
maybe if you were dipping your gun and soaking it in liquid mud but otherwise no reason

This trash has been regurgitated for decades
no the carbine round isn't a .30-06 and it's not pistol either
it's intermediate which is why the Germans generally regarded the Carbine as in the same class as their Mp44 and they used them whenever they had ammo for them.

I have heard retarded shit from some "Vets"
my favorite was from a local Korea Vet who claimed the carbine round wouldn't make it through the coats the Gooks wore in the winter
Well that fool never left America in the first place, fake combat Vet.

Downsides ?
Yeah some...
Round was potent, no more than three round bursts at best even with the military Brake
Stock was poorly suited to FA use
and Mags
still was far from some bad and weak weapon in my opinion.

As to weird MGs I nominate the French Hotchkiss Universal 9mm SMg
Australian F1 is another
great gun, just totally weird
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Old May 02, 2019, 18:33   #35
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Ok you win .. Happy .. ???

BTW: The springs fly out on their own accord .. self removable ..

I'm sure that's my fault too .. !
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Old May 03, 2019, 10:10   #36
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Ok you win .. Happy .. ???

BTW: The springs fly out on their own accord .. self removable ..

I'm sure that's my fault too .. !
Not a case of being happy or not Jug
I suppose if you have a bad 9 spring or a trigger housing with a defective slot it could be an real issue.

Most of my disagreement was over the round being weak
When you look at what it was intended to replace in the field, mainly 1911s and SMgs it's a great compromise in the weight department

One thing for certain, it's not the pip squeak it's sometimes made out to be
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Old May 03, 2019, 13:08   #37
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glad you got the last word in .. I know that's important to you .. I'll leave a space below my post so you can do it again ..

BTW: It's a good round for a pistol ..
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Old May 04, 2019, 16:18   #38
Noonanda
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Originally Posted by tac-40 View Post
Speaking of oilers, the Japanese Type 11 had an oil bottle attached to the receiver. Plus it was butt ugly.

Butt ugly yes, but still effective.
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Old May 05, 2019, 18:49   #39
gew98
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The three weirdest emmagees I have personally played with -

1) MG17 with it's internal wing mount and some ancillary bits. Took me a bit as a kid to figure out it's safe breakdown. Then to modify a screwdriver to replace the solenoid operated sear. Then it fires so dang fast it toppled the truck jack stand I mated it to. Flung brass so hard and fast out the bottom it was ricocheting off the concrete floor and going everywhere at some velocity.
2) Mat49 Vietnam bring back in 7,62 tok. Fired it seemed unusually fast I felt.
3) French Mle38 in that unusual 7,65 long. Most ammo I found for it was weak or dud. Making cases from 30 carbine was laborious and lost just as quick. But it was neat.
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The vice of capitolism is it's unequal sharing of blessings.
The Virtue of Socialism is it's equal sharing of MISERY.
Winston Churchill

1) Culture builds upon the past
2) The past always tries to control the future.
3) Our future is becoming less free
4) To build free societies you must limit control of the past.

All hail lord IMPOTUS and Darth Biden All hail.
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Old May 07, 2019, 09:38   #40
justashooter
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1915villar pellirosa light aircraft machine gun mounted on bicycle. well, it was the italians. what did you expect?

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If the concept of heading on down to the local Home Depot and transforming $100 worth of random pipe bits into a killing machine doesn’t appeal to you, you’re a frikkin' pansy. Also, you’re probably sane and will live significantly longer than I will.

Nonetheless you disgust me, and I take comfort in the knowledge that your obituary will be nowhere near as humorous as mine.


The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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Old May 10, 2019, 06:09   #41
flemgunner
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Originally Posted by gew98 View Post
The three weirdest emmagees I have personally played with -

1) MG17 with it's internal wing mount and some ancillary bits. Took me a bit as a kid to figure out it's safe breakdown. Then to modify a screwdriver to replace the solenoid operated sear. Then it fires so dang fast it toppled the truck jack stand I mated it to. Flung brass so hard and fast out the bottom it was ricocheting off the concrete floor and going everywhere at some velocity.
2) Mat49 Vietnam bring back in 7,62 tok. Fired it seemed unusually fast I felt.
3) French Mle38 in that unusual 7,65 long. Most ammo I found for it was weak or dud. Making cases from 30 carbine was laborious and lost just as quick. But it was neat.
Man, Ive been looking for MG17 parts forever, lucky!
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Old May 10, 2019, 18:40   #42
gew98
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Originally Posted by flemgunner View Post
Man, Ive been looking for MG17 parts forever, lucky!
I sold mine to recon ordnance in fon du loc wisonsin before the dole/volkmer crap took effect in may'86 Amongst a handful of other emmagees. Did'nt have much choice as too many buddies warned me some jackarsealope LEO type would make a name burning my arse for just having them in newjerkistaniland.Plus they were at my dad's house when I was at Ft. Drum and he wasn't too keen on all that stuff in his basement with the politics of the day then. At least the stuff became transferable via recon ordnance .
__________________
The vice of capitolism is it's unequal sharing of blessings.
The Virtue of Socialism is it's equal sharing of MISERY.
Winston Churchill

1) Culture builds upon the past
2) The past always tries to control the future.
3) Our future is becoming less free
4) To build free societies you must limit control of the past.

All hail lord IMPOTUS and Darth Biden All hail.
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