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Old January 11, 2013, 22:10   #51
R1shooter
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I have yet to see an unusable receiver, this is complete nonsense, are you referring to a little undertimimg or a more sinister problem we are not aware of, 60000 going strong, maybe a problem now and then that we are responsible for, we admit not perfect. Send me your receiver that is unusable as you claim and I will post a video of it and how terrible it is and it will be warrantied immediately, time to put up. We stand behind our product so email me at dan@dsarms.com and I will begin the process. I do not claim perfection in every receiver but to claim we do not back up our product is a stretch.
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Old January 11, 2013, 22:26   #52
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been two knockdowns and one of em' bit the ref
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Old January 11, 2013, 23:37   #53
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Originally Posted by R1shooter View Post
I have yet to see an unusable receiver, this is complete nonsense, are you referring to a little undertimimg or a more sinister problem we are not aware of, 60000 going strong, maybe a problem now and then that we are responsible for, we admit not perfect. Send me your receiver that is unusable as you claim and I will post a video of it and how terrible it is and it will be warrantied immediately, time to put up. We stand behind our product so email me at dan@dsarms.com and I will begin the process. I do not claim perfection in every receiver but to claim we do not back up our product is a stretch.
I'm going to start another thread with this. Let's see where it goes from there.
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Old January 11, 2013, 23:45   #54
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Where r you goin' with it?
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Old January 12, 2013, 00:09   #55
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Perhaps he missed my post about barrel timing and how it relates to shoulder locking sizes. Sounds like I called him out to send me one of these receivers that are 'unusable', perhaps I should start a thread to monitor this challenge, if in fact he can not come up with one and have a video posted, at least I would replace it, or is this just a case of agreeing with someone who made a video?
We shall see, we will replace any unusable receiver and stand by that.
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Old January 12, 2013, 00:14   #56
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Perhaps he missed my post about barrel timing and how it relates to shoulder locking sizes. Sounds like I called him out to send me one of these receivers that are 'unusable', perhaps I should start a thread to monitor this challenge, if in fact he can not come up with one and have a video posted, at least I would replace it, or is this just a case of agreeing with someone who made a video?
We shall see, we will replace any unusable receiver and stand by that.
Then you shouldn't have any problem replacing LaConservationist's, among others. See the other thread for just a few people I've noticed lately having problems with your products.

I did see your other thread. I missed the part where you said you would take care of people with defective receivers like LaC's. Mostly because it wasn't there.

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Where r you goin' with it?
As I have said all along, I don't actually own a bad DSA receiver (I was going to buy one as an assembled rifle) so I don't have any financial or personal interest in getting DSA to deal with their problems. I would like to see DSA stand behind their products (as they reportedly have not been) and I would like to see the FALFilers who got screwed get taken care of so that I don't have misgivings about placing an order for a multithousand dollar rifle.
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Old January 12, 2013, 00:30   #57
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You are a sideline commentator and I will deal with customers that actually have a problem, not an imaginary one, what horse do you have in the race?
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Old January 12, 2013, 08:56   #58
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Your receivers are useable. As long as one modifies other correct, in-spec parts, to make them fit on your receiver.

A correct factory barrel will not fit your receiver, and once modified to fit your receiver will not fit any other receiver.

No factory locking shoulder will headspace the modified barrel on your receiver. I have a brisk business selling locking shoulders I've reground to .249". But I'd rather the receiver be correct.

That I produce the most awesome DVD and workbook set for the home builder is irrlevant to these facts, but thanks for the free plug.

Readers can purchase my super-duper-totally-cool DVD & Workbook set for $65, $8.50 ship. I'll even give DSA employees free shipping. Maybe ya'll learn something.

http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.co...efalmisc.shtml
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Old January 12, 2013, 09:20   #59
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I agree with what the gunplumber is saying here and have carefully explained why this was done and reverted to standard barrel timing in the current production and this brings the locking shoulders into the .260 range. Perhaps some of the misinformed will stop spouting the nonsense about unbuildable receivers now that the gunplumber has blessed them as serviceable.
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Old January 12, 2013, 19:04   #60
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I agree with what the gunplumber is saying here and have carefully explained why this was done and reverted to standard barrel timing in the current production and this brings the locking shoulders into the .260 range. Perhaps some of the misinformed will stop spouting the nonsense about unbuildable receivers now that the gunplumber has blessed them as serviceable.
Link to the explanation?

ETA I found the one in DB where you claim

" Early timing is by design,not out of spec, one does not exist, show me one if you disagree. "

I refer you to the Austrian print, which I assume you have, which translates/converts to ".4020" +/-.0004 for thread timing location (top vertical cline), That is the 7th thread to the receiver face. This establishes barrel timing. So there is one.

I have not found the thread where you explain this being deliberate, nor the cause for custom locking shoulders. I have speculated in the past that it was to salvage those defective barrels you were selling that would hand time past TDC.
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Old January 12, 2013, 19:32   #61
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Yea, I musta missed the explaination when the ref got bit.
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Old January 12, 2013, 21:59   #62
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Refer to the thread I posted explaining how this happened, unfortunately trying to please customers caused this deviation. As you know many factors influence timing including how it is measured. I have standardized how we time and measure this and this will be on all current production. The locking shoulder size was a direct result of undertiming and will now be back in .260 range.
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Old January 13, 2013, 08:46   #63
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Refer to the thread I posted explaining how this happened, unfortunately trying to please customers caused this deviation. As you know many factors influence timing including how it is measured. I have standardized how we time and measure this and this will be on all current production. The locking shoulder size was a direct result of undertiming and will now be back in .260 range.

ok, I already asked you to provide a link to this explanation. I did a search on your posts and found nothing other than the incorrect statement you made above.

Now you are wrong again. Timing has no relationship to locking shoulder size - unless the barrel is several degrees off in timing. If the receiver is too long, then the barrel shoulder must be reduced an equivalent amount to time. Net result is zero.

Furthermore, you claim there is no timing standard, ("Early timing is by design,not out of spec, one does not exist"), but now you're fixed it. Considering your lack of understanding of such a simple concept as timing, I fail to see how you could fix anything, let alone something you've insisted doesn't exist.

I still suck at internal threading and have never even attempted to control internal thread timing on an asymmetrical unit. But then, I'm using a manual lathe. You can just program it in. But you don't. You deliberately changed the spec (coinciding with your run of defective barrels). How do you "fix" a problem hat doesn't exist that you did on purpose?

Inquiring minds want to know.
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Old January 13, 2013, 10:19   #64
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Now this is where you are wrong, the shoulder locking size shrinking was a direct result of a slight advance in barrel timing, this is a hard concept to grasp as there is no change in dimension from the center to the shoulder face.I was contacted by a files member who is an engineer and is smarter than I am and he basically explained it to me so I could understand the reason, if he reads this post he is free to chime in and give a technical explanation.I have about 30 pre orders for the R1 receivers and should have them in customers hands in about 3 weeks and these can be evaluated and will have the new changes I have implemented. Feel free to call me and I will discuss this with you, I am not able to respond in length to every theory of what we do as a manufacturer but I can tell you the current production meets the standard I put in place, I am not an engineer afterall as you reminded me I am just a cop.
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Old January 13, 2013, 20:52   #65
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You say you advanced the timing. Why? You say there is no standard for timing. Which is it? In order to advance it, there must be a standard from which to advance it from.

And yeah, maybe you can explain it now that you understand it so well.

The receiver face is longer. By a few thousandths at least. I refer you to any factory receiver. There is a recess around the barrel shoulder. I don't have one of the old LMT receivers to check, but IIRC, it was on those as well. It is not on your current receivers.

The explanation of course, is for academic knowledge only. The reality is, your receiver is significantly out of spec in a critical dimension, that requires permanently modifying the correct barrel and locking shoulder to fit it.

Your company brags about having original prints and not being reverse engineers, yet you deliberately stray from those proven specifications. Why? I still think my idea of making all your defective barrels (hand timed past 12:00) useable for something, is the reason.

Certainly not "unbuildable" and once built, they are fine. But it is annoying as hell. Is it unreasonable to expect your product today to be as good as it was 15+ years ago?
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Old January 13, 2013, 21:45   #66
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If the receiver face is longer would it not require a larger locking shoulder, all else being equal? Afterall the barrel in theory is further away from the locking shoulder requiring a larger one to compensate. I assure you this is not the case, both issues have been corrected and I guess we will just have to see when the first batch hits the market.
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Old January 13, 2013, 21:53   #67
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Depends where it is longer from. If we use the locking shoulder hole as the 0 point for all measurements, then after turning back the barrel shoulder (balancing the receiver defect), then a larger shoulder would be needed. But the face can be longer, which trashes the timing, while the OAL from the face to the LS hole is shorter.

You have yet to answer my question - so for the third time - if there is no standard, how can you advance timing from this non-existent standard? How can you correct what you claim isn't wrong? And why did it take 2+ years and who knows how many thousands of defective (but still buildable) receivers. And why deliberately install this known defect in the first place? After all, it would only take one barrel on one receiver. or one .249" LS to say "oops, something is wrong."

I do appreciate the calm and professional way you have handled some of the more emotional posts, but some of us are very careful and precise readers. I for one, see exactly what you DO say, and this makes what you are avoiding saying all the more curious.

I would be satisfied with facts - even ones I didn't like. This evasion on the other hand, is really just reinforcing the distrust that some have for anything "DSA" has to say.

Why did you change the timing for several years to require non-standard parts?
What serial number and prefix receivers are affected?
What serial number begins the "corrected" units?

You can't claim to have fixed something unless you acknowledge there is something wrong. I have no problem building on any DSA receiver. I can fix all the annoyances, including replacing ejector blocks. But it sure would help to know which ones have what issues I'm going to have to deal with. Like I know any Coonan receiver going on an IMBEL lower will need the clearance notches on the back, but not on an Argy lower. Some StG combinations will need the OAL shortened from the rear .003" so I need to test fit the lockup before refinishing. I don't mind this too much (although perfect would be better). I don't even expect everything to be perfect. But don't you think it would save your company a shitload of PR and CS time to just be straight with us? Heck, I'd even include variations, tests, and work-arounds in my next workbook version. But I need to be able to tell people what to look for, based on serial number.
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Old January 13, 2013, 22:08   #68
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No, as you turn the shoulder the barrel gets closer to the shoulder shrinking it, if the face of the receiver is to long then it grows, our receivers are all within spec as far as this and yes you must measure from the center of the locking shoulder hole. We have the prints from Austria, belguim and Argentina and I have some unofficial drawings from LIW with a few differences from FN but basically the same. The barrel timing had been advanced from what became the in house spec and I took it upon myself to get back to where an FN barrel or most of them will time without facing the shoulder.
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Old January 13, 2013, 22:19   #69
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To try to answer your question this timing just became the norm and for no reason other to try and accomodate complaints of overtiming,we did not have bad barrels, if we get bad ones we just send them back, that is just speculation . As to why it took so long the people who worked at Dsa in the past who could listen and change something got disheartened with the lies and hostility, and went somewhere else. In my case I am consulting on many issues and I have a little experience with the system so I listened to the complaints and have been addressing them, in some cases one member at a time. I guess you could say I have a thick skin, coming from where I do you have to.
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Old January 13, 2013, 22:22   #70
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we did not have bad barrels, if we get bad ones we just send them back, that is just speculation
no - you are either woefully ignorant or lying. I had one customer have to return 2 last year before giving up and using an IMBEL. Hand-timed past TDC on any of a dozen factory IMBEL receivers or receiver stubs. There was a whole slew of these.

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No, as you turn the shoulder the barrel gets closer to the shoulder shrinking it, if the face of the receiver is to long then it grows, our receivers are all within spec as far as this.
You're either out of your league here and really don't know what you're talking about, or you assume a lack of sophistication in your audience. If your receivers were in-spec, I would not have factory barrels hand timing to 9o'clock, and .249 locking shoulders.

It is apparent now that you are unwilling or unable to provide answers, only spin. I am disappointed. I hoped for just a moment we might see some straight talk for once. I guess that's the difference between a technician (me) and a salesman (you). I stick with what is, not what I wish others to believe.
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Old January 13, 2013, 22:31   #71
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To try to answer your question this timing just became the norm and for no reason other to try and accomodate complaints of overtiming,
OK OK.....Lets stop here a second.......
1) I am NOT a renowned custom FAL Builder!
2) I haven't been dealing with the FAL rifle nearly as long as many of you here!
3) I know there are a lot of things I have still yet to hear about and learn, concerning the FAL rifle
4) I am NO expert and I am just an ole webfooted coonass still learning about the FAL rifle.....

BUTTTTTT!!!!
I for one have NEVER heard any complaints or issues concerning "OVERTIMING" on DSA receivers.....Not from the 20000 ser# up and I haven't heard ANY complaints at all about the GRAYSLAKE receivers!!!! WTF are you talking about with THEY done this due to OVERTIMING COMPLAINTS??????
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Old January 13, 2013, 22:44   #72
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OK OK.....Lets stop here a second.......
1) I am NOT a renowned custom FAL Builder!
2) I haven't been dealing with the FAL rifle nearly as long as many of you here!
3) I know there are a lot of things I have still yet to hear about and learn, concerning the FAL rifle
4) I am NO expert and I am just an ole webfooted coonass still learning about the FAL rifle.....

BUTTTTTT!!!!
I for one have NEVER heard any complaints or issues concerning "OVERTIMING" on DSA receivers.....Not from the 20000 ser# up and I haven't heard ANY complaints at all about the GRAYSLAKE receivers!!!! WTF are you talking about with THEY done this due to OVERTIMING COMPLAINTS??????
I think I was right in my speculation that the deliberate undertiming receiver was to make the defective overtimed barrels (that R1 claims didn't exist) fit. All would have been fine if the barrels and receivers were kept together as a set, but either one combined with an in-spec part = the problems we were discussing (that don't exist, but are now fixed).
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Old January 13, 2013, 22:51   #73
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I think I was right in my speculation that the deliberate undertiming receiver was to make the defective overtimed barrels (that R1 claims didn't exist) fit. All would have been fine if the barrels and receivers were kept together as a set, but either one combined with an in-spec part = the problems we were discussing (that don't exist, but are now fixed).
10-4 I understand well.......we fixed a problem......we didn't have!
OR since we screwed up so MANY barrels we had to screw up our receivers to fit......so we ended up with TWO parts that are now screwed up!! Its you bunch of IDIOTS that don't understand how these rifles are designed to be built!
But the receivers are in spec....

Wait now I am confusing myself......

Hey I have a very novel idea....JUST fix the damn problem, eat the cost and STOP pushing them (DSA's SCREW UPS) off on the consumer!!!


LaC
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Old January 13, 2013, 22:57   #74
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10-4 I understand well.......we fixed a problem......we didn't have!
OR since we screwed up so MANY barrels we had to screw up our receivers to fit......so we ended up with TWO parts that are now screwed up!! Its you bunch of IDIOTS that don't understand how these rifles are designed to be built!
But the receivers are in spec....

Wait now I am confusing myself......

Hey I have a very novel idea....JUST fix the damn problem, eat the cost and STOP pushing them (DSA's SCREW UPS) off on the consumer!!!


LaC
well yeah, if they just kept the undertimed receivers and overtimed barrels for DSA complete rifles, probably nobody would ever have noticed. But they sold these as individual parts without telling anyone, and that is deception in my book.

Heck, they should raise the price on all their receivers by $25, then stamp a "U" on the face of the undertimed receiver and offer it as a second for $50 less and just advertise it truthfully. Most people will never remove a barrel to put on another gun so having to turn the shoulder more is no big deal. Or sell it as a barreled upper. Barrel + handgurad ring + receiver. Factory timed for your convenience.
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Old January 13, 2013, 23:14   #75
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well yeah, if they just kept the undertimed receivers and overtimed barrels for DSA complete rifles, probably nobody would ever have noticed. But they sold these as individual parts without telling anyone, and that is deception in my book.

Heck, they should raise the price on all their receivers by $25, then stamp a "U" on the face of the undertimed receiver and offer it as a second for $50 less and just advertise it truthfully. Most people will never remove a barrel to put on another gun so having to turn the shoulder more is no big deal. Or sell it as a barreled upper. Barrel + handgurad ring + receiver. Factory timed for your convenience.
Agreed, BUT wouldn't that be too much like trying to satisfy the customer, and known as customer satisfaction?
IT sure seems it is much easier to be deceitful and just blame the customer for being a bunch of "spoilt children" (R1shooters COMMENT NOT MINE)!!

OK well myself personally I have seen enough of this NONSENSE, I think YOU, Myself and anyone here has seen exactly what is going on......LOOKS like an internal cover up and trying to correct something that REALLY JUST DID NOT HAPPEN!!!

I am done with it!!

LaC

NOTE to add:
As a whole I have always been 100% satisfied with DSA, from their Receivers, Folding Para Stocks, Para Bolt carriers, Light weight lowers and even dealing with customer service back when Nikkie was there, (ALL OF THE AFOREMENTIONED I HAVE DEALT WITH FIRST HAND and PROUDLY OWN) BUT in my honest opinion DSA has taken a MAJOR TURN for the worse....
This is bad for ALL of the FAL enthusiast as we need all the designers, manufactures and support we can get to keep this hobby fueled! I never wish to see ANYONE in business to own a monopoly. I do hope DSA gets their act together and starts to support the people that brought them from GRAYS LAKE and before to current day!
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Old January 13, 2013, 23:34   #76
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The spoilt children quote was refering to some of the posts I read, should have used a stronger term, had nothing to do with DSA. I explained what happened, it has fallen on deaf ears or has not been understood, I know some appreciate the fact that this has been addressed. At the end of the day my presence on this forum has been to address issues and help the customer.
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Old January 14, 2013, 10:54   #77
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To try to answer your question this timing just became the norm and for no reason other to try and accomodate complaints of overtiming,we did not have bad barrels, .
Were these complaints coming from your in-house shop builders working on your own rifles? If so then that jives with the out of spec barrel theory. I have never heard of any overtiming complaints here on this board, if it was ever an issue it would have been widely discussed here.

What serial number does the fix begin at so that we can stay away from previous numbers?
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