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Old November 02, 2018, 21:26   #1
Chemechie
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Suggestions for next MG

I have a MAC 10 in .45 and 9mm and I'm thinking about my next one.
I'm looking at a rifle caliber and am looking for suggestions to help me choose (I know, probably a bad idea!).
A major point for me is affordability, so I'm looking at sub $20k options.
The belt fed options are: MG-08/15 and 1919/ ANM2. I'm shying away from them due to age and reliability, and also weight.
I like the look of a Lewis gun, but the ammo is less common and, again, age and weight.

Unless you change my mind, I'm looking at a .308 magazine fed. The choices are:
BM-59
M1A/ M14
FAL
G3 (registered receiver).
I have shot the FAL but not the others (yet).

I'm particularly interested in what gives me the most options for modifications and changes - I like how I can swap uppers and calibers on my MAC-10. I think the most mods are available for the M1a, but I'm not sure and am looking for input.
Thanks for your thoughts!
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Old November 02, 2018, 22:06   #2
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Vickers. Or mg42
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Old November 02, 2018, 23:13   #3
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https://www.machineguncentral.com/Default.aspx

This is subguns dot Com for an idea of available guns.

Then another board...

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/forums/in...-market-board/
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Old November 02, 2018, 23:32   #4
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1919's can use 7.62x51, 8mm, and .30-06 with easy swap.
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Old November 03, 2018, 20:19   #5
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If you really want a belt fed, go for the 1919. They are built like a tank and parts are plentiful if you do need them. Still inside your price point.

If you would rather a mag fed 7.62, I'd say get a FAL. Again, built like tanks and parts are plentiful. Plus, you can build it up new again from scratch if you need to.

I'm a shooter of my MG's so breakage is a fact of life.
I own both of these and am very happy with them.

Other than that, I'd tell you that an M16 is a must.
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Old November 04, 2018, 09:09   #6
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Well if you were ever considering a BM59, mags and spares have never been more reasonable.
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Old November 04, 2018, 11:36   #7
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Options

I have shot most of the guns on your list. I feel there are 2 best options...

BMG 1919... The AK47 of medium machineguns... Once you get it running it goes and goes... best bet for beltfed but is heavy and requires a tripod. If you get one get the linker to make your life easier....

Of the .308 LMGs the heavy barrel FALO is hands down the best! Smooth, easy to shoot, easy to live with...

I have another thought in the same idea, but different... Get an AR-15 auto-connector (AKA Lightning Link). It works in everything AR from 9in shorties to the LMG... You said you like options so here You are...

You can't go wrong with any of these...
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Old November 04, 2018, 19:48   #8
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I've shot 40-50 different machine guns and I love machine guns.

I also like 7.62 Nato battle rifles.

But I do not like to shoot them full auto. I'd say of all machine guns I enjoy them the least.

I do however love belt feds, 5.56 guns like the AUG and M-16 and oddly enough never been a big AK fan but I love to shoot them full auto.
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Old November 04, 2018, 21:41   #9
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I too shot many makes and models of the full auto guns, real fun stuff to play with. Too many favorites to list but I liked the Belgian copy of the BAR in the rifle size full autos. Quick change barrel and dead on accurate. Heavy but really controllable. A heat shield on the barrel would have saved some skin but they didn't have one
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Old November 04, 2018, 22:41   #10
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I'm not trying to twist your arm or anything, but Lage is making an M16'ish style upper for the M11 and once sales die down from it some, says he's going to be making one for an M10 as well.

real world prices are hovering around $3k

Here's chili17 shooting one that he converted to 300 blackout *(suppressed obviously)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isSlgVxVJ-c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3d3z0OUnyQ
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Old November 05, 2018, 06:12   #11
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Considering your list, +1 for BM59 as they seem very reasonable for what they are. I canít tell you the last time I saw a RR G3 sub-$20k. Youíre likely to find a BM59 for a few grand less and likely in better condition.
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Old November 05, 2018, 18:09   #12
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1919 for parts availability, caliber variety, options and accessories...set it up A6 style for "one man" carry (not really but close enough) or tripod mounted. Barrels and parts, belts, ammo..all the critical stuff you need are in abundance and cheap to obtain.

Its not sexy, or the "coolest" of MG's but its such a great design, they are still going strong on battlefields 100 years since it was introduced....

Vey much in your affordability range.
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Old November 06, 2018, 15:02   #13
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Thanks

Thank you for the input.

A couple of thoughts I had, in no particular order:

- I've heard complaints about 1919's breaking, and also having a strong spring that can injure. How valid are those concerns? Are they the result of people not being careful or using poor quality parts?

- I've got a MAX 10/31 upper for my Mac 10; it took a little to get it running right, but now it is doing good. I'll be interested if he comes out with a 7.62 upper.

- I know an 07 FFL who has made DP28 posties and he is looking into whether he could make DP28 upper for my MAC 10; his problem is where to put the recoil spring since it interferes with the back of the Mac 10 receiver...

- If a FAL has a registered disconnector, does that disconnector work in anything besides a FAL? For example, I've read that FNC registered sears work in some SCAR variants.

Again, thanks for your input!
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Old November 06, 2018, 21:00   #14
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Talk to Len Savage about his experience trying to integrate a MAC into a (parts kit built) PKT.
The problem wasn't with making it work!

I am noting that some MG's are back sliding price wise.
I have seen some Group Industries BAR's getting close to that $20K mark.
That is a gun worth considering owning.
Also, some (non Colt) transferable M-16's are in your price range.

One other point on the Browning 1919's is there is plenty of technical support to be found when something doesn't run right.
The cam pin on the extractor seems to be one weak area, and surprisingly no one seems to offer that part, just complete extractors (KMP)
30-06 and 7.62 barrels are still easy to find, although the market prices are moving upward.
APEX has enough of the major pieces of the 1919 on hand to cover you for the rest of my lifetime (extractors excluded)

Good luck with the search, I always enjoy looking at MG's for sale!

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Old November 06, 2018, 21:04   #15
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Not sure if this helps but I am a big fan of MG and face this same issues when I was looking ..And should have ask my SOT more questions ..So hear is what I can pass on

1. As to other guns the feds normal say if it is in the same family is it ok ..Ie you are fine to put a auto sear etc from a HK in any HK gun from belt feed etc etc ..But if not in the family in a true sense ie FNC sear into a SCAR even though it would work not legal .
2. I would look into guns that can easily swap calibers or at least parts can be had ...Why M16 and HK guns go for more then say a FNC or AC556 as parts for thouse esp FNC can be very very hard to get ..Look into that very close
3. Know ext what you are getting ..For example UZIs you want to get a RR gun withouth a blocking bar ...Dont do what I did lol ... Also as part of this for example 9mm MAC10 can not easily go to 45acp and are more limited in uppers then a 45acp gun or a MAC11 .


Really what I am saying is do your rescher..

Me if I was doing it over again I would proble do the same but know more ..

Me under 20k ( dont hit me ) would get a M16 only as there is a crap ton of calibers you can get for it for uppers parts for the gun are dirt cheep to get ( I mean a parts kit with auto sear is like 50 bucks ) and you burn out a upper no problem get another from PSA for like 200 bucks and there you go ..And they make belt feed uppers and HBAR uppers for them

That said a belt feed FA is a very fun gun just remember the cost of ammo and parts ..I would say a 1919 is def the way to go but 308 or 30-06 ammo is not fun in cost ( again why I like guns that have the option of 22lr uppers or kits ) ...

Frankly I like the Maxium guns only as you can use x54r russian ..

Really it boils down to what you want to do with it ... I eneded up skipping 1919 etc only as I did not have the space to store the whole set up ( tripos etc ) ..And for so many FA belt feeds ammo esp surplus has long dried up
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Old November 06, 2018, 22:01   #16
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What are thoughts on the American 180? I've heard some of the drums are problematic but you can't get any cheaper than shooting .22lr.
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Old November 06, 2018, 22:09   #17
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What breaks on the SEMI 1919 is the lock frame since the semi machining must remove too much material. Inexpensive part and itís not like they break constantly itís just the part that does break in a highly reliable gun. This problem is only with SEMIs.

The drive spring guide rod has gone through several eye sockets and skulls. Sometimes it doesnít free up and guys look to see why and bang through the head. Donít do this. Better yet Dolf Goldsmith makes a tool that eliminates the hassle and danger.

1919 is solid and reliable. So are 1917a1 and Vickers.
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Old November 07, 2018, 10:55   #18
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What are thoughts on the American 180? I've heard some of the drums are problematic but you can't get any cheaper than shooting .22lr.
IAN has a great video on them ..Very cool guns and not that pricy ..They saw some use in the Bush wars in Afirca and by the Utah police

Only issues is the drum are slow and tricky to load the first times and can have issues
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Old November 07, 2018, 21:47   #19
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I believe I remember hearing the ATF shut down the whole thing with putting FNC sears in SCARs.
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Old November 08, 2018, 06:08   #20
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BM59s get little love but to enjoy them on full auto you need the E2 style Nigerian contract stock

Maxim are built like a brick, get a good one little breaks but parts are no longer cheap
1919s are a brick as well and parts are everywhere

American 180s are neat but have built in issues
nothing quite like spilling most of a mag locking it in place
another issue is they have a habit of not feeding the last few rounds in the pan thus folks have shot feet reloading

Best buddies dad was a BIA Fed, kept one as a duty gun he let us boys run on our own when we visited
His was an Austrian built gun, all transferable Ams are US made. Most require tuning. One of my truly fond memories was taking a nice 4 point buck on reservation land with that 180 and a laser lock module. We later dug 17 slugs out of the carcass, pattern was like 6"s...Deer just hit it's knees, died on the spot. That was just a tap of the trigger

180s really are not cheap to shoot, they run 2 to 3 times as fast as most other MGs but you can get pans up to 275 rounds from E&L
A few made it to Southern Africa, a few States bought them as well as various Federal Agencies. Notably the Yugos did a near direct knock off during the Cold War

Back in the 70s there was a rebellion on the Red Lake reservation in Northern MN. Indians were taking pot shots at BIA feds until one dumped a full pan into the trees. Woods went silent after that. 170 odd rounds of .22 HP poured out in a few seconds

Advice ?
shoot one first.
they really are not for the macho dick holder types playing war games
you need hard core trigger control, just a brief tap will unleash a dozen rounds
no real recoil or climb
that tap will launch them into a small kill zone providing extreme trauma
I always figured they gave better knock down on a ten round tap than a .458 Winchester Magnum round at 50 to 75 yards

by the same principle they tend to just drill through soft armor, that fiber can only take so much abuse. A 180 will jackhammer it's way through kevlar quick

Don't trust internet stats either
these guns can run faster or slower depending on state of tune and ammo, anywhere from a bottom end of 1200 to over 1600 RPM
The stock Austrian Voere guns were close to 1400RPM, once broken in they ran much faster

They don't even sound like a firearm at that speed

one last thing
you can't run junky ammo through them
if you think you are going to plow through cases of greasy Thunderbolt you will be severely disappointed.
Top shelf only with routine cleanings
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Old November 18, 2018, 19:55   #21
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If you are putting a 20k cap I would suggest to stick with intermediate cartridges as the cost to fed a belt fed will balloon quickly. You can get a good quality ar lower and you can get the ares belt fed upper but can still shoot types all the way to .22

Last edited by preston1026; November 20, 2018 at 16:42.
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Old November 19, 2018, 13:19   #22
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If you are putting a 20k cap I would suggest to stick with intermediate cartridges as the cost to fed a belt fed with balloon quickly. You can get a good quality ar lower and you can get the ares belt fed upper but can still shoot types all the way to .22


Seconded a M16 can be had for 16-19k even for a factory gun if you are on the hunt

And you will have a lot of fun and options ..

Me if I a 20k cap would get a M16 add a LMT40mm and a good silencer or two and maybe a sawed off stamp and be really happy for a while
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Old December 04, 2018, 17:58   #23
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Personally, I like sub-machine guns and that is the scope of my full auto collection.

From your list, I'd go with either the FAL or G3.
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Old December 05, 2018, 09:42   #24
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I have an Izzy heavy and love it.

But a 1919 would be cool, are they <$20k now? Need to go shopping I guess.

Would be fun to tinker with the 1919 to make it shoot other calibers.

Course I have plans to do the same thing to the Izzy I haven't gotten to yet.
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Old December 05, 2018, 18:23   #25
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I have an Izzy heavy and love it.

But a 1919 would be cool, are they <$20k now? Need to go shopping I guess.

Would be fun to tinker with the 1919 to make it shoot other calibers.

Course I have plans to do the same thing to the Izzy I haven't gotten to yet.
1919 Conversions to 308, 8mm and 54R are fairly straight forward.
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Old December 06, 2018, 09:01   #26
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1919 variants and relatives

I'm leaning towards a 1919 based on your suggestions. Can any of you suggest a good reference on all of it's variants and relatives? Particularly in regards to parts compatibility. For example, what are the differences between a 1919, an M37, an ANM2, and an MG40? (and and others I may be missing).
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Old December 06, 2018, 11:14   #27
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I'm leaning towards a 1919 based on your suggestions. Can any of you suggest a good reference on all of it's variants and relatives? Particularly in regards to parts compatibility. For example, what are the differences between a 1919, an M37, an ANM2, and an MG40? (and and others I may be missing).
You should post all your questions over on 1919A4 dot com as that is where the knowledgeable Browning belt fed guys hang out.
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Old December 06, 2018, 15:36   #28
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I traded a Jap 99 converted to x39 and Stemple 76/45 even up for a 1919A4 and havenít looked back. I have everything for 3 calibers plus essential spares left over from the semi. I ran 900 rounds through it the first time out. I have a lifetime supply of 8mm, so I think I am set. Uzi is the only one left on my list.


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Old December 08, 2018, 15:53   #29
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I have same issue with select fire weapons of limited budget. Have a pair of M11's in 380 as very inexpensive to feed and maintain. With a suppressor are quiet but with a 1,200 rpm rate of fire they take training not to dump a full mag in single tap of the trigger. My intermediate size select fire rifle is a Ruger AC556 in a GB Factory Folder stock. Darn tiny package folded but stock is rock solid fully extended and 5.56 does not break a person to burn on full auto and rebarrelling a Ruger Mini 14 style rifle is not expensive. I did add an adjustable gas block to mine.
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Old Yesterday, 15:15   #30
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I have same issue with select fire weapons of limited budget. Have a pair of M11's in 380 as very inexpensive to feed and maintain. With a suppressor are quiet but with a 1,200 rpm rate of fire they take training not to dump a full mag in single tap of the trigger. My intermediate size select fire rifle is a Ruger AC556 in a GB Factory Folder stock. Darn tiny package folded but stock is rock solid fully extended and 5.56 does not break a person to burn on full auto and rebarrelling a Ruger Mini 14 style rifle is not expensive. I did add an adjustable gas block to mine.


If you have not already get a Lage upper for that mac really really slows down the ROF
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Old Today, 00:14   #31
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Mine are just as we picked up in 1980 while a senior in High School when turned 18. I saved my money, then loaned it to my dad and helped him set up a Trust naming me as a Trustee and heir to Trust. He then applied for his stamps (helped fill out the Form 4's) and purchased them when Sionics was still making the rubber wipe suppressors. Only way I could figure out to play with full auto before I was 21. He was adamant I had to turn 18 first. They are true pre Miami Vice Era machine pistols. Miss the days when a 13 to 14 year old farm boy could drive his own car or the farm truck to local hardware store or gun store, buy a Smith Model 19, Colt AR 15 or whatever and be told by owner to have a parent stop by when in town to fill out the yellow sheet.

Every kid had a deer rifle during hunting season in usually locked vehicle and pistol under the seat and no kids ever got shot or even knifed. If could not handle an issue with your fists and either give or take a beating like a man just had to make sure not to upset people so inclined. Issues were settled with fists, not an AR 15 and pipe bombs but we went to church on Sunday and Wednesday even if slipped out behind the church to sip a little moonshine with the other kids on occasion. Will look at those uppers if slow the M11's down as a sub two second full mag dump is silly but puts a lot of energy on target per second for 380 acp.
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Old Today, 10:13   #32
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1919 Conversions to 308, 8mm and 54R are fairly straight forward.
I have already done all that with my semi.

I meant harder stuff, like pistol calibers.
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