The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Discussion Forums > General Non-Firearms Discussion

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 17, 2015, 16:33   #1
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
How to mount and drive a Firepump from a V Twin Honda engine

Edit:\ PTO Drive idea on the 2007 3500 scrapped, as the truck I wanted to put this on does not have a PTO on its transmission or transfer case.

Yes I'm disipointed in this development but such is life.

Would have required putting the np205 onto the 6L80E transmission which would have required two parts that are unobtanium, those parts being the VSS for the late model NP205 1990-1991 and the transfer case adapter between the 6L80E and the NP205.

Have been looking on google images to get some ideas of how to hookup the drive train on a in bed mounted pto pump.

Only found one or two pics that give some decent ideas but open to others.

Truck was a M1031 / M1028A3 CUCV and as such has a pto that runs at 180% of engine speed originally for a generator.

I have a frame and tank that would be very useful to put out small brushfires in my local area.
Hose reel to be mounted on tank below.



240 gallon stainless steel tank on aluminum frame below.


Have the pump and a bunch of pipe fittings for the in and out of the pump and tank, just need a good schematic of how to power the pump from the driveshaft under the truck and the plumbing is also giving me a interesting challenge.

Pump is 3inch in and 2.5 out and Im using 3 inch NST for input and 2.5 NST for output and in and out of tank as well.

Im using tri clover (air operated) butterfly valves for the tank to pump selection and standard fire service valves for out to hose 2.5 and 1.5 NST.

Just need ideas on what I havent covered.

Hosebed line off output 1.5 NST plumbing and the like.

Alot of it is dependant on the under truck crossmember that the shaft runs on before it comes up to the pump in the bed via a 3 inch gilmer style belt, like the blower drive belt on my boat engine.

ETA: too much bearing load to mount the drive right to the pump or use a shaft that has its own bearing mounts / pillow blocks ?


I bought about 25 of these shelters back in 96 or so from DRMO at Mc Clelland AFB in the Sacramento area for in the area of 125-150 each.

Lately I have seen them for an average price of 1K. Makes me wish I would have kept more of them.

I purchased a M1028 CUCV thats made to carry the fully loaded shelters back in 1995.

Shelters


M1028 CUCV


Found this most recently.


This looks like the class of what I'm attempting to build, with some modifications.
Quote:
Type 6

A Type 6 Wildland Engine (Patrol 57) belonging to the*Kern County Fire Department.

Type 6 Engines are built on apickup truck*frame with a medium duty chassis giving aGVWR*of 9,000–16,000 pounds (4,100–7,300*kg).[8]*They are required to carry a minimum of 150 US gallons (570*L; 120*imp*gal) of water, but only pump 50 US gallons per minute (3.2 litres per second; 42 imperial gallons per minute) at a pressure of 100 pounds per square inch (690*kPa).[5]*In California these engines are staffed with one firefighter and used for patrols. Most other dispatch areas require the Type 6 to have a minimum of 3 personnel (required by NWCG policies), and is more popular outside of California due to its ability to go where other engines cannot.




Last edited by NFADLR; July 05, 2018 at 21:01.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2015, 17:03   #2
12v71
Perched in the MP
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 71127
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: I'l know when I get there.
Posts: 7,398
A lot will depend on the speed your pump needs to run at for peak efficiency. some like the 1800 rpm range, some like 3600 rpm. and also your desired engine speed when pumping. Are you going to pump and roll, or just pump station? I've built quite a few construction water trucks, most were built on a concrete mixer chassis with a hydraulic drive pump. But I have done a couple of pto drives.
Main thing to avoid is steep u-joint angles, if you belt drive your pump make sure your jackshaft and pump mount on the same bracket so frame flex wont throw the belts. Personally I would stick with double or triple V-belts to eliminate the possibility of the belts "walking off" at the wrong time.
Hope this helps somewhat.
ETA... make sure the rotation of the pto and pump match. By turning the pump 180* I.E. shaft forward or to the rear that can be accommodated.
__________________
"Can you lock him out of the marketplace?": My other half talking to Brunop in 2014.

"Freedom is not a crime"

I'm a heavy equipment mechanic because brain surgery was far too easy.

Last edited by 12v71; October 17, 2015 at 17:09.
12v71 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2015, 17:54   #3
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Need to find the pump curve and figure out what impeller to use with the pump as it has a few, I have two but there are more that can be had, and what is the best rpm to run the pump at.

I plan to pump stationary as the drive train of the truck is not setup to pump and roll.
P&R would be a nice setup but would require direct engine power and that would mean a hydraulic setup or a elaborate shafts and gear setup.
Pretty sure the pto is 180% meaning the pto shaft turns 180 % of engine rpm so 1000 engine rpm = 1800 pump rpm.

That should work fine if the engine turns at the correct direction.

So facing the rear at the crankshaft the engine turns ccw, and the pto output also turns the same so this gives me two options if the pump shaft faces the front of the truck with the 3 inch input of the pump facing the front of the tank it in turn spins clockwise facing its shaft.

This makes sence right ?

Engine rotation from front is clockwise and from rear is counter clockwise and pump turns clockwise facing its shaft so with intake of pump facing the front of tank or rear of truck.

2nd option if it was in the back of the tank drive would need to be clockwise with the pumps shaft facing the rear so input of pump faces forward so that would work also...





Pump is a goulds 3756 with a #7 Impeller.
Found this page on it.
http://goulds.com/centrifugal-pumps-...-pumps/#tabs-1

3500 RPM Curve.
It's the 2 1/2 x 3 -7 2nd from far right on curve.

Last edited by NFADLR; October 18, 2015 at 10:56.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2015, 18:15   #4
richbug
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 10484
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Western PA
Posts: 4,660
The other thing to consider is how many HP the PTO unit is good for. The universals in the drive shaft on my truck are tiny, rated for like 8-10 hp at 1000 rpms. a 3" pump takes big ponies.
richbug is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2015, 18:55   #5
12v71
Perched in the MP
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 71127
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: I'l know when I get there.
Posts: 7,398
If your pto does indeed have the same rotation as the engine the setup you show will work just fine. What little I can see of the pto housing, that appears to be a 20+ hp unit easily.
__________________
"Can you lock him out of the marketplace?": My other half talking to Brunop in 2014.

"Freedom is not a crime"

I'm a heavy equipment mechanic because brain surgery was far too easy.
12v71 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2015, 19:00   #6
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Pump drive from GM is this type as far as the gilmer belt (cogged belt drive)..

Pullies are steel with a edge so the belt wont come off but other than that its the same as on my boats engine show here.

And I have the pullies and shaft material so no need to reinvent that wheel.

This drive type will transmit more hp than would ever be required.

I researched what the pump would take to drive it with the large impeller 7 inch, and I purchased a 20 hp honda engine, but then came across this M1031 CUCV and went with the pto drive idea.

The pto will easly deliver 100 hp according to the Muncie PTO Book.


NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2015, 22:05   #7
RG Coburn
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27406
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,401
For the amount of stuff you'll have involved trying to mate it to the chevy,you might be better off getting a portable Honda powered pump,something that will do high pressure. If it were a bigger tank,like say,a thousand gallon propane,I'd recommend using compressed air or co2,and configure it like a giant pressurized water extinguisher. You only pressurize it when you need to.
RG Coburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2015, 22:31   #8
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Past the point of no return I'm afraid.

Just need to be hooking it all up.

Already have a 2000 gallon propane tank but it's a might busy supplyin propane.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2015, 22:41   #9
yovinny
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,811
FWIW,
My work truck is an ex fire dept brush truck.
On mine they just used a stainless Ag sprayer pump frame mounted and ran it off a short (16"?) shaft to the pto. It was just hard plumbed through the bed both directions with a relief back to the tank. They kept the tank, I removed all the other stuff. Sadly I tossed it all a year ago.

Plus, keep in mind, 250gal of water itself is over 2000lbs then add in the tank and everything else, it's a bunch to carry in a pick up going off road.
Mine was in a utility bed full of tools too, so probably well over 4500lbs added weight.
Mine is an 85' F250 that they rebuilt and resprung with 350 springs and it was just beat to death after a few years with the FD.
I had to replace almost all the rolling stock pieces, axles, bearings, joints, shocks, springs, frame hangers, etc, etc.

Good luck with it.
Cheers, YV
yovinny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2015, 09:39   #10
tac-40
Moderator
Armed Curmudgeon
 
tac-40's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 12090
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SC-Low Country
Posts: 7,849
Looking at the pump curves, it looks like your tank will be the limiting factor with that pump. Looks like max capacity at speed with most efficient head is around 225 gallon per minute. You may want to look for a smaller pump or a large tank. Without knowing the suction head numbers, it seems that you set up may be best for running a pickup line to a water source such as a pond or a lake to keep the water going.
__________________
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you. Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Schools uses to start with the "three R's". Reading, writing, and arithmetic. Now they start with the "three D's". Dipshitery, Dumbassery, and Douchebaggery-Retired Bum

If you do in fact have a problem, you have the rest of your life to solve it. How long your life lasts only depends on how well you solve it.
tac-40 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2015, 10:50   #11
yovinny
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,811
I take that back,,,
I tossed everything but the pump itself,,,At least plumbing wise, the pto drive shaft is in the 'useful' scrap pile outside the shop too, so it could be resurrected
This is it, Delavan 8900DSS.
http://www.sprayerdepot.com/Shop-by-...-Pumps/8900DSS
It worked good for them, IIRC with a nozzle on like 50' of 3/4" hose.
They sold me the truck when they got a larger one mounted on a deuce and a half.

I dont have a use for it right now,,,Got anything to trade

Cheers, YV
yovinny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2015, 11:34   #12
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
YoVinny

Thanks but I'm building a fire protection system and already have a 250-400 (depending upon impeller and spun rpm) Gpm pump.

That pump looks like a nice one but 24 Gpm nowhere near the output I need.

It could be great for a pressure washer, put a 5hp b&s engine on it and have your self a handy cleaning tool.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
I take that back,,,
I tossed everything but the pump itself,,,At least plumbing wise, the pto drive shaft is in the 'useful' scrap pile outside the shop too, so it could be resurrected
This is it, Delavan 8900DSS.
http://www.sprayerdepot.com/Shop-by-...-Pumps/8900DSS
It worked good for them, IIRC with a nozzle on like 50' of 3/4" hose.
They sold me the truck when they got a larger one mounted on a deuce and a half.

I dont have a use for it right now,,,Got anything to trade

Cheers, YV
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2015, 12:12   #13
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
The tank is basically ment to be a source to put out spot fires and to be switched to / fed by a 10K gallon tank that sits on a hill with about 75 ft of head.

So with a long enough hose to keep the booster tank full or the hose reel like this one sitting on top of the tank it will be very useful.

I also plan to put a short and shallow horse trough on the opposite end of the pump in which to have a lay of 1.5 hose or at least I'm entertaining the thought.




Quote:
Originally Posted by tac-40 View Post
Looking at the pump curves, it looks like your tank will be the limiting factor with that pump. Looks like max capacity at speed with most efficient head is around 225 gallon per minute. You may want to look for a smaller pump or a large tank. Without knowing the suction head numbers, it seems that you set up may be best for running a pickup line to a water source such as a pond or a lake to keep the water going.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2015, 12:38   #14
12v71
Perched in the MP
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 71127
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: I'l know when I get there.
Posts: 7,398
It's good to be "overpumped". The nozzle opening is what will control the gpm of the pump. With a centrifugal pump like you have it's no problem to cut the flow back just to what you need at the moment. And if you do need to draft from a pond or stream that extra capacity will be good to have, just add a hand pumped vacuum primer, that pump will not self prime. Even with "self priming" pumps on water trucks I still add a hand primer to make it positively work the first time.
__________________
"Can you lock him out of the marketplace?": My other half talking to Brunop in 2014.

"Freedom is not a crime"

I'm a heavy equipment mechanic because brain surgery was far too easy.
12v71 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2015, 12:53   #15
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
I forgot I have a starter motor powered primer mfg by Hale. I have a backup hand priming pump as well.

The key is to fit all of this stuff together correctly.

With the triclover butterfly valves I'll need a compressed air source I plan on running a small compressor where the smog pump once was on the BBC engine connected to a pair of 10 gallon tanks under the bed, that or if the rig does not leave the mountain I'll just fill the tanks when required from my shop compressor.

This pic isn't mine but it represents what the thing looks like, It has 3/4 inch pipe fittings that attach to the outlet side of the pump with a hose to draw the water through to get prime.




Quote:
Originally Posted by 12v71 View Post
It's good to be "overpumped". The nozzle opening is what will control the gpm of the pump. With a centrifugal pump like you have it's no problem to cut the flow back just to what you need at the moment. And if you do need to draft from a pond or stream that extra capacity will be good to have, just add a hand pumped vacuum primer, that pump will not self prime. Even with "self priming" pumps on water trucks I still add a hand primer to make it positively work the first time.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 18, 2015, 16:27   #16
yovinny
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,811
Yea, these are small pumps, just for 250gal truck tanks.
Their not intended for 'fire protection', rather just to run around and put out the hot spots after a brush fire is broke and swatted.
Basically, all it supplies is a portable high pressure garden hose for a short while.

Good luck with the project.

Cheers, YV
yovinny is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 04, 2016, 20:10   #17
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Update on the tank.

It's now a estimated 400 gallons.

Dimensions are W 68 "x T32.5" x D47".

This tank will (if my math is correct, as if the dually axle will hold the weight) be sitting in the back of my dually truck bed.

My math says this tank at 400 gallons @8.3 lbs per gallon will be holding 3320 lbs of water

If anyone is better at math to figure out the total gallons capacity please post a formula or calculator if you know of one, my guess was about 400 gallons but would love to be more exact if possible.






Last edited by NFADLR; June 04, 2016 at 20:22.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 04, 2016, 20:32   #18
kwthor
Veteran Member
Silver Contributor
 
kwthor's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 49571
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: OR
Posts: 1,055
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFADLR View Post
Update on the tank.

It's now a estimated 400 gallons.

Dimensions are W 68 "x T32.5" x D47".

This tank will (if my math is correct, as if the dually axle will hold the weight) be sitting in the back of my dually truck bed.

My math says this tank at 400 gallons @8.3 lbs per gallon will be holding 3320 lbs of water

If anyone is better at math to figure out the total gallons capacity please post a formula or calculator if you know of one, my guess was about 400 gallons but would love to be more exact if possible.
I'm not sure this is what you want?
1 gal = 231 cubic inches

So 449.6 gallons
subtract some for the rounded corners and the inside dimensions. I think you got easily 400 gallons.
__________________
My prediction is it will be a gruesome massacre. Why? Because one side in this conflict has 8 Trillion bullets & the other side doesn’t know which bathroom to use.
Craig “Sawman” Sawyer, a Marine veteran, former Navy SEAL
kwthor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 04, 2016, 20:54   #19
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
I came up with 449 gallons using

W 68 "x T32.5" x D47" ÷ 231 =449.6536796537

Ya can't tell from the pics but beyond the corner radius their is also a sump that runs front to back that's the depth of a 2x4 so about 1.5 inches of the entire length front to back.

Yep that's how I came up with an estimate of 400 gallons but I was hoping to get a closer figure to be brutally honest my math skills suck.

Thanks for the 231=1 gallon.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kwthor View Post
I'm not sure this is what you want?
1 gal = 231 cubic inches

So 449.6 gallons
subtract some for the rounded corners and the inside dimensions. I think you got easily 400 gallons.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 04, 2016, 20:59   #20
justashooter
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 5967
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: york, pa.
Posts: 8,332
you gonna be damned heavy with a ton and a half of water in the back.
__________________
If the concept of heading on down to the local Home Depot and transforming $100 worth of random pipe bits into a killing machine doesn’t appeal to you, you’re a frikkin' pansy. Also, you’re probably sane and will live significantly longer than I will.

Nonetheless you disgust me, and I take comfort in the knowledge that your obituary will be nowhere near as humorous as mine.


The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."
justashooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 04, 2016, 22:13   #21
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Is the glass half full or half empty, get this the glass is refillable and one does not need to fill the glass to the top to make use of its function.

I'm only figuring the capacity of the tank and what the water weight is to know if I can use its total capacity and to factor in weight of the tank, the water and the pump and hose and hosereel, valves etc.

Why have a xxx gallon tank if you can't use its capacity if you so desire to ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
you gonna be damned heavy with a ton and a half of water in the back.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 05, 2016, 07:58   #22
RG Coburn
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27406
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFADLR View Post
YoVinny

Thanks but I'm building a fire protection system and already have a 250-400 (depending upon impeller and spun rpm) Gpm pump.

That pump looks like a nice one but 24 Gpm nowhere near the output I need.

It could be great for a pressure washer, put a 5hp b&s engine on it and have your self a handy cleaning tool.
If your new tank is roughly 450 gallons,and a 25 gpm pump is way to small,won't the pump you desire suck that tank dry in a very short time? If you run,say,a 50 gpm pump,you'd be dry in under 5 minutes of use. I really think you should consider a trailer mounted tank,something with at least a thousand gallons. You could still truck mount all the pump stuff,then employ snap couplings,or whatever on the feed lines.
Big pump+small reservoir =lots of trips back and forth from water supply.
RG Coburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June 05, 2016, 12:21   #23
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
I see your ^ and plan to make some phone calls to lacofd to understand what setups they used on the patrol trucks my pops used when he was rollin and patrollin.

Thanks


Maybe something like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RG Coburn View Post
If your new tank is roughly 450 gallons,and a 25 gpm pump is way to small,won't the pump you desire suck that tank dry in a very short time? If you run,say,a 50 gpm pump,you'd be dry in under 5 minutes of use. I really think you should consider a trailer mounted tank,something with at least a thousand gallons. You could still truck mount all the pump stuff,then employ snap couplings,or whatever on the feed lines.
Big pump+small reservoir =lots of trips back and forth from water supply.

Last edited by NFADLR; June 05, 2016 at 12:27.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 05, 2016, 18:51   #24
tac-40
Moderator
Armed Curmudgeon
 
tac-40's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 12090
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SC-Low Country
Posts: 7,849
What kind of water sources do you have and how close are they to your proposed op area? If the op area is covered by a decent road network, then I would suggest going with a towed trailer mounted with a 1600 gal tank. You pump could be an old US Navy P250 pump. Gas or diesel powered, 250 gpm at 50-100 psi. Designed for fire fighting with the suction hose over the side (plenty of suction head/lift). considered two man portable, but one can move them a short distance. Fuel tank is an outboard boat portable tank with hoses and quick disconnects.

Here is a picture -

Here is some ideas to look at:

http://www.ki7xh.com/firetruck.htm
__________________
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you. Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Schools uses to start with the "three R's". Reading, writing, and arithmetic. Now they start with the "three D's". Dipshitery, Dumbassery, and Douchebaggery-Retired Bum

If you do in fact have a problem, you have the rest of your life to solve it. How long your life lasts only depends on how well you solve it.
tac-40 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 05, 2016, 19:36   #25
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
I have a 5000 gallon tank next to my pump house and 20k tank up on the hill, so plenty of water.

I have a pto driven pump I plan to use to move the water, don't have the budget to buy a bigger tank or a self contained engine pump unit although if I would have found it earlier may have considered it.

The final outcome of this project are the 400+ gallon tank, blue goulds pump, another smaller pump, the hose reel shown in the thread, the hale 12vdc primer pump spoken about earlier in the thread and the M1031 surplus truck that's frame was shown in the truck build thread at post 20.

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397421

As it turns out I'll be building two rigs one with the 240 gallon tank on the little trailer and the 450 gallon tank on the back of the dually truck bed with the pto driven pump.

Last edited by NFADLR; June 05, 2016 at 19:42.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 06, 2016, 10:07   #26
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
I'm attempting to duplicate the function of this fire patrol truck.

The help I really need at this point is knowing the configuration to hook up the pipes and valves.

Need to have an diagram to use the pump for intake and output to both fill the tank from a water source and use the pump to draw from the tank to route the water thru the hose reel.


Will have to put in a call to my father as he drove a truck like this while in the service of the lacofd.



Last edited by NFADLR; June 06, 2016 at 10:53.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June 09, 2016, 00:05   #27
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
This is a crude drawing attached to the tank the X's are valves.

This crude drawing is only the intake the 2.5" output is higher up on the tank, the out of the pump to both the tank and the hose output.

What would the benifits be of having the output line higher or midlevel into the tank ?

More to come.

Anyone into cad to design this thing ?



NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 09, 2017, 22:00   #28
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Still working on hooking this thing up.

I have figured out that this pump and tank etc setup must mount on the 1986 M1031 and not the 1985 M1028 as the carrier bearing setup needs the cross member that the m1031 has to mount the pump in the bed with the drive belt powering the pump up from the pto shaft.


Sorry about the small pic it's all I could find at the moment since photofuckit went tits up.



OK here's the deal, and trying to explain this situation without pics is a real challenge but I'll do my best.

The axis of the pto drive and of the pump don't really match.

The pump is better suited with the intake 3 (3 inch female pipe) on the right side and the shafts on the left of the end of the tank as shown below, then the intake can have a male T with the branch screwing into the pump intake and one run screwing into the valve that goes into the tank for supply to the pump for when the pump draws off the tank, the last run connects to the draft valve for when the pump supplies water from a outside source using the 2.5 output hose or when refilling the tank.

More when I have the time.






If I can find a 1:1 right angle drive that I can drive from the pto shaft with the female output of the 90° gear drive direct connecting to the shaft of the pump, I might make this thing work correctly while still mounting the pump in the correct orientation to work with the tank.

Or I'm a looney....


Found this website to ponder the math of.
http://www.old-engine.com/belts2.htm

This way will be less expensive but maybe no time make as good of contact, horsepower transfer.


Last edited by NFADLR; July 10, 2017 at 01:21.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 13, 2017, 22:05   #29
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
I started thinking I wanted to drive the pump from the PTO and would still like to do that but I just don't have a good way to change the belt orientation to drive the pump.

So it looks like I might be using the 20hp Honda twin to drive the pump unless I can figure out how to drive it from the PTO.

The only thing I can think of is to change the orientation of the shaft under the bed of the truck where I can mount the gear box.

That is if I can find a 90° gear box that is a one to one ratio.





NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 13, 2017, 22:50   #30
12v71
Perched in the MP
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 71127
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: I'l know when I get there.
Posts: 7,398
Go with the Honda drive. If the truck quits, you have some protection... if the pump engine quits, haul ass in the truck. Not a single Brush rig around here running a PTO for that reason.
__________________
"Can you lock him out of the marketplace?": My other half talking to Brunop in 2014.

"Freedom is not a crime"

I'm a heavy equipment mechanic because brain surgery was far too easy.
12v71 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 13, 2017, 23:40   #31
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Yes, then I can use the 180% od on the pto to run the 12k generator and the truck will serve two purposes.

I used the same tank and a dual diaphragm pump to supply the house with water when the 3 wire sub pump in the well was on the frits so it has been a real good investment, of $50.00.

After a long bit of Web searching I found this setup.
It's mostly what I've been looking for with some exceptions.


This drawing is much better, although may require editing.

I don't plan to have a foam system at least to begin with.





Quote:
Originally Posted by 12v71 View Post
Go with the Honda drive. If the truck quits, you have some protection... if the pump engine quits, haul ass in the truck. Not a single Brush rig around here running a PTO for that reason.

Last edited by NFADLR; July 15, 2017 at 14:21.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 30, 2017, 20:51   #32
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Need to use a pump powered by a 13 hp Honda engine, pump input is a 4 inch OD slip input and foot valve is a 3 inch National standard thread male gasket seal.

Need to find fittings and hose to fit between the two.

pics to follow.

have sourced the hose ( 4 inch ID) that will slip onto the pump input but from the end of the hose to the foot valve is the issue.

Have two foot/check valves one is 3 inch NST / NATIONAL HOSE, other check valve is 3" female pipe tapered / NTP.

Last edited by NFADLR; August 30, 2017 at 21:01.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 30, 2017, 22:07   #33
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
If I can locate a reducing coupling from 3 to 3.5 inch the 3 inch side will work for the one check valve and he 3.5 inch will work for the 4 inch hose as the OD of the 3.5 pipe is 4 inch.

So just a reducing bell coupling from 3 inch pipe to 3.5 inch pipe.

Just my luck it's not made in domestic or import.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 30, 2017, 22:42   #34
12v71
Perched in the MP
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 71127
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: I'l know when I get there.
Posts: 7,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFADLR View Post
If I can locate a reducing coupling from 3 to 3.5 inch the 3 inch side will work for the one check valve and he 3.5 inch will work for the 4 inch hose as the OD of the 3.5 pipe is 4 inch.

So just a reducing bell coupling from 3 inch pipe to 3.5 inch pipe.

Just my luck it's not made in domestic or import.
Get a 3" and 3.5" black steel coupler and weld them together. Or weld a 3.5" nipple onto a 3" coupler and there's your hose connection with one less part. Try to avoid the galvanized stuff and cast iron fittings. I've made a bunch of these type fittings for Drilling equipment.
__________________
"Can you lock him out of the marketplace?": My other half talking to Brunop in 2014.

"Freedom is not a crime"

I'm a heavy equipment mechanic because brain surgery was far too easy.
12v71 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 30, 2017, 23:49   #35
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Yes that should work...

Thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 12v71 View Post
Get a 3" and 3.5" black steel coupler and weld them together. Or weld a 3.5" nipple onto a 3" coupler and there's your hose connection with one less part. Try to avoid the galvanized stuff and cast iron fittings. I've made a bunch of these type fittings for Drilling equipment.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old August 31, 2017, 21:34   #36
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Latest need in this project...



A economical 3" x 2.5" female NPT concentric bell reducer in stainless steel or brass.

Last edited by NFADLR; September 01, 2017 at 16:24.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 01, 2017, 15:19   #37
RG Coburn
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27406
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 20,401
Quote:
Originally Posted by RG Coburn View Post
If your new tank is roughly 450 gallons,and a 25 gpm pump is way to small,won't the pump you desire suck that tank dry in a very short time? If you run,say,a 50 gpm pump,you'd be dry in under 5 minutes of use. I really think you should consider a trailer mounted tank,something with at least a thousand gallons. You could still truck mount all the pump stuff,then employ snap couplings,or whatever on the feed lines.
Big pump+small reservoir =lots of trips back and forth from water supply.
Derp...9 minutes...9 minutes times 50 gallons equals 450...

Anyways...Were I you,I'd look for a way to make that volume of water go further. y guess is you're fighting primarily brush in the sub-10 foot range? Not like you are putting out redwoods...You running straight water,or adding wetting agent?
RG Coburn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 01, 2017, 18:58   #38
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
The larger picture hasn't been grasped the 450 gallon tank is only the tank that is directly connected to and somewhat acts as a buffer to keep the tank supplied with water.

It is connected to a 20k gallon take that is placed 75 ft up the hill and is gravity fed to the 450 gallon tank.

I just came in from running the pump and good news is the pump runs great when primed, bad news is the pump shaft seal is blown out and needs to be replaced.

I'll be out in the towens looking for that tomorrow as I'm beat now and everything is closed anyway.





Quote:
Originally Posted by RG Coburn View Post
Derp...9 minutes...9 minutes times 50 gallons equals 450...

Anyways...Were I you,I'd look for a way to make that volume of water go further. y guess is you're fighting primarily brush in the sub-10 foot range? Not like you are putting out redwoods...You running straight water,or adding wetting agent?
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 01, 2017, 21:16   #39
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Parts I've been gathering are before you.

NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 01, 2017, 21:51   #40
12v71
Perched in the MP
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 71127
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: I'l know when I get there.
Posts: 7,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFADLR View Post
Parts I've been gathering are before you.

Seeing this setup, I can tell you exactly why you lost the seal on the pump. That pump style should only be operated with a flooded suction with the tank level above the pump volute. I see what appears to be a suction priming line, but still, the engine shouldn't be started without having he pump case full of water, carbon face seals don't do well with out cooling water.
__________________
"Can you lock him out of the marketplace?": My other half talking to Brunop in 2014.

"Freedom is not a crime"

I'm a heavy equipment mechanic because brain surgery was far too easy.
12v71 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 01, 2017, 21:56   #41
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
The case was full of water there is a foot valve at the end of the 3 inch sch 120 pvc.

The pump is a Keene dredge pump and it came with a very similar setup as the foot valve I have here just was a plastic valve but same setup.

Pump sat in a storage trailer for the last 20 years.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 12v71 View Post
Seeing this setup, I can tell you exactly why you lost the seal on the pump. That pump style should only be operated with a flooded suction with the tank level above the pump volute. I see what appears to be a suction priming line, but still, the engine shouldn't be started without having he pump case full of water, carbon face seals don't do well with out cooling water.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 01, 2017, 22:18   #42
12v71
Perched in the MP
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 71127
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: I'l know when I get there.
Posts: 7,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by NFADLR View Post
The case was full of water there is a foot valve at the end of the 3 inch sch 120 pvc.

The pump is a Keene dredge pump and it came with a very similar setup as the foot valve I have here just was a plastic valve but same setup.

Pump sat in a storage trailer for the last 20 years.
Ok, I can see storage gumming up the seal. But I have changed out a bunch of seals because the guys ran the tank out and didn't stop the pump soon enough. I would still verify your foot valve is actually holding priming water. Myself, I prefer a self priming type pump that holds it's own priming supply and keeps the shaft seal covered 'til its pumping. I have 2 of that type for pumping out pipelines to do weld repairs. Very reliable and I haven't burned a seal yet.
__________________
"Can you lock him out of the marketplace?": My other half talking to Brunop in 2014.

"Freedom is not a crime"

I'm a heavy equipment mechanic because brain surgery was far too easy.
12v71 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 02, 2017, 15:32   #43
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Went down to oroswill (my nickname for the county seat town actual name Oroville) to get a new pump seal and Chinese food from Tong,Fong,Lo.

Spoke to one of the owners of the company that made the dredge pump Keene engineering, Mark said that over time, 20 years it's normal for the seal to fail.

Here is the seal kit.

No pics of the Chinese food as its in our bellies half way to the sewage outlet!!






old seal on left new on right, notice design change.

Last edited by NFADLR; September 02, 2017 at 16:31.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 05, 2018, 19:12   #44
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
I have set aside some time to work on this setup again..

Found a online tool to figure out what the truck will hold as in tank pump water hose reel etc from its GVWR.

Roscommon has a nice tool and calculator to figure how much water the 12k GVWR truck can handle.


With the gvwr being 12000 and the truck weighing 7500 calculator suggests 375 to 409 gallon tank.
http://www.roscommonequipmentcenter....n%20units.html


Link below is a download.
http://www.roscommonequipmentcenter....nk%20Units.pdf
http://www.roscommonequipmentcenter.com/page7.html
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 05, 2018, 19:52   #45
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 19,199
Does your tank have baffles in it to keep the water from overturning the rig? 1,000 pounds of moving water on a slope and over you go just by momentum.
__________________
yellowhand "Six*men*can shut down the whole state"
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 05, 2018, 20:01   #46
12v71
Perched in the MP
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 71127
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: I'l know when I get there.
Posts: 7,398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bawana jim View Post
Does your tank have baffles in it to keep the water from overturning the rig? 1,000 pounds of moving water on a slope and over you go just by momentum.
Surfs UP!
__________________
"Can you lock him out of the marketplace?": My other half talking to Brunop in 2014.

"Freedom is not a crime"

I'm a heavy equipment mechanic because brain surgery was far too easy.
12v71 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 05, 2018, 20:42   #47
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Yes, this ain't some smoothbore milk truck.


ETA:\ found a round pattern np205 with correct adapter for 4L80E but it's real pricy.... $2000.00

Jim, How far are you from Riley Oregon ?

I stopped there on my way back into Nazifornia a couple of weeks ago for a bite to eat.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Bawana jim View Post
Does your tank have baffles in it to keep the water from overturning the rig? 1,000 pounds of moving water on a slope and over you go just by momentum.

Last edited by NFADLR; July 06, 2018 at 13:58.
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 06, 2018, 12:26   #48
martin35
un muy viejo gringo
Contributor
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 2939
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Texas on the Brazos
Posts: 26,357
NFADRL, you are a interesting thread author, if you are as rich as you are interesting you can be my very friend in the whole world.

The Coventry Climax Engine Company built a small 4 cylinder engine specifically to drive fire pumps and forklifts,,, Colin Chapman put them in Lotus sports cars he designed and built,,, he's dead so friendship is a non-starter.

The bell housing had to be specially made,,, making use of the engine it was not designed for possible,,, fire pumps will cavitate at high RPM's

The Lotus 11 was my favorite,,, it looked and sounded like a sports car.
Lotus and Cooper racing cars used Coventry Climax engines winning thier class in th 50's and 60's.
Rear engined Cooper's started a trend thought conventional today.

In the oilfield we used small 4 cylinder engines as starters for larger diesel engines.

Last edited by martin35; July 06, 2018 at 12:32.
martin35 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 06, 2018, 12:50   #49
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
I wanted to drive the pump from the transfer case PTO but it's exceeding the amount of coin I wanted to spend on this thing.

The T Case adapter that would allow the np205 (has the PTO) to mount to the 4L80E automatic transmission in the truck I want to use only came on the Chevrolet 1991, V30, 4L80E/205 GM 15629600 is unobtanium!!
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old July 08, 2018, 23:47   #50
NFADLR
Registered
 
NFADLR's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7480
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Location thats the question ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Posts: 4,952
Want to run this by some of you engineer types.

Not about the tank size v pump size but about the intake from tank (bottom draft) into pump.

As I'm picturing it the bottom of the tank equipped with its 3 inch weld bung into a (if I can find it) street 90° fitting then into a 3 inch sch 80 pvc pipe x feet then into a 45° sch 80 pvc elbow then x ft and into another 45° sch 80 pvc elbow and finally into a valve and then a Tee and into the pump.

OK so what haven't I considered ?

12v71 ?
NFADLR is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 20:56.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files