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Old August 30, 2017, 12:39   #1
justashooter
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"antique" status under consideration

http://www.guns.com/2017/07/27/bill-...ns-nationwide/ "A Senate measure would change the federal definition of an antique firearm from one made before 1899 to one that is 100 years old.

Introduced earlier this month as S.1541, the move would dramatically increase the number of older guns that are available to collectors that could be sold and shipped without a Federal Firearms License.

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives generally does not regulate antique guns as defined under federal law as one made in or before 1898 that is not otherwise controlled by National Firearms Act."
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Old August 30, 2017, 12:45   #2
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Old August 30, 2017, 12:51   #3
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This would include the 1911?
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Old August 30, 2017, 13:05   #4
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This would include the 1911?
Ones made in 1911 (though 1917), yes.
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Old August 30, 2017, 14:01   #5
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Wow something positive from fed government, I'm shocked.
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Old August 30, 2017, 14:44   #6
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Change it to 75 years. Or even 50...
A 50 year old computer is considered an antique.
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Old August 30, 2017, 15:00   #7
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Change it to 75 years. Or even 50...
A 50 year old computer is considered an antique.
Any plastic guns that survive for 50 years should def be on the list
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Old August 30, 2017, 16:07   #8
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As originally written the GCA was supposed to advance Antique status yearly and it was set at 100 years.
This was the NRA's position, Senator Dodd stripped that out setting it at anything prior to 1899.

C&R wasn't altered and remains anything over 50 years.

ATF interpeted this loosely
you see while NFA can be C&R the Bureau refused to exempt certain MGs as unregulated Antiques. For example certain early Maxims and Colt 1895s
That said there are a number of short barreled rifles and stocked pistols that are now unregulated antiques.
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Old August 30, 2017, 21:47   #9
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Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
As originally written the GCA was supposed to advance Antique status yearly and it was set at 100 years.
This was the NRA's position, Senator Dodd stripped that out setting it at anything prior to 1899.

C&R wasn't altered and remains anything over 50 years.

ATF interpeted this loosely
you see while NFA can be C&R the Bureau refused to exempt certain MGs as unregulated Antiques. For example certain early Maxims and Colt 1895s
That said there are a number of short barreled rifles and stocked pistols that are now unregulated antiques.
Can you use a pre-1899 receiver from say, a mauser, and legally build a pistol off of it without a tax stamp? Or even though "they aren't firearms", they are enough of a firearm to still fall under NFA rules ?
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Old August 30, 2017, 23:20   #10
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AWESOME!!! Now just remove FFL need altogether.

NO Infringement would be the Best, the ability to go BUY anything you want or need UNrestricted, the only limitation Being $$ or trade value.
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Old August 30, 2017, 23:27   #11
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Can you use a pre-1899 receiver from say, a mauser, and legally build a pistol off of it without a tax stamp? Or even though "they aren't firearms", they are enough of a firearm to still fall under NFA rules ?
Nope...no can do unless the receiver was never assembled as a rifle. There were some antique new old stock trapdoor Springfield receivers some years ago that were old Bannerman inventory. I bought a couple from DGW back in the 80s that later went into .45-70 pistol builds and there are Antique NOS Springfield M1870 Rolling Block frames that were old Bannerman stock as well.

ATF is weird on their regulatory interpetations
How it works is they maintain that since the NFA had no Antique exemptions in it the GCA's exemptions don't apply.
Understand that back in 1935 folks were required to register even percussion SBRs and stocked pistols. I had a M1855 Springfield pistol carbine years ago that had an NFTR/ATTD registration number branded in the wood on the pistol. Even came with the 1935 registration paperwork !

ATF started relaxing this nonsense by the late 60s and around the mid 70s started removing actual antiques from the NFA so long as they were not MGs or SBSs.

The only SBS's removed that I am aware of is one or two Trapdoor line throwing guns listed by SN and Doc Holidays sawed off Meteor dbl bbl shotgun used at the Okay Corral shootout.
I attempted to import an extremely rare Remington Bankguards model 20 gauge rolling block pistol from Canada back in the late 90s. ATF said no go, it's NFA. Ended up bringing it in as a parts set sans barrel. Still thinking on a .50-90 Howdah build on it which would be lawfully non NFA and an unregulated Antique.

There are a number of never built antique Winchester lever gun frames that came out of the Winchester museum collection after it was transferred to Cody.
The museum had no use for the actions/frames and were using them to barter for work on the collection, some of which was in rather poor shape.
Anyways I snagged a bunch of this back in the 90s from folks I knew around Cody that set up at the big Winchester show there but thats all long gone here and I'm sure there as well.
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Old August 31, 2017, 05:25   #12
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I should add that I have never once seen any new old stock pre 1899 bolt action receivers in the flesh. If you look over old Bannerman's catalogs many many years ago they had Krag receivers in the White but don't know whether they were pre 1899.

There is sort of a way though...

Some characters are building up Oberz style Mosin Nagant pistols by welding cut receivers back together.
Now there's a great deal of debate whether one can buy a rifle, saw cut it in half with the intent on rewelding the receiver to circumvent the NFA. I'd say yeah you can.

and just in case someone brings it up
NO you are NOT required to torch up the receiver with multiple cuts. That's only required on import of NFA

Another avenue would be the New Old Stock Mauser receivers Springfield Sporters used to carry. These were Belgian made FN30 variants marked with the Columbian crest. Pretty sure SARCO sucked them all up at the liquidation auction and built them as complete actions but they are still nueter having never been assembled as actual rifles.

Numrich may still have NOS Parker Hale receivers as well, I know they used to have M85 sniper receivers in the White. Most of those seem to have been bought up and remarketed on Gun Joker though.
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Old September 01, 2017, 16:47   #13
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That would be bitchen because a lot of older early semi auto weird pistols would be exempt like borchardts, steyr roths, some astras, other bizarre ones.. and rifles and possibly mg's(!?!?!) ....im getting a stiffy!!@!!
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Old September 01, 2017, 18:17   #14
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Originally Posted by EinheitElf View Post
That would be bitchen because a lot of older early semi auto weird pistols would be exempt like borchardts, steyr roths, some astras, other bizarre ones.. and rifles and possibly mg's(!?!?!) ....im getting a stiffy!!@!!
Borchardts are already Antique status as are Cone Hammer and most large ring C96 Mausers.

WWI pistols would be exempted from Federal regulation

MGs though, no as I already discussed above
there are no exemptions for Antiques in the National Firearms Act of 1935
ATFE "could" exempt certain MGs as unregulated Antiques but to date has not
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Old September 01, 2017, 21:41   #15
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Borchardts are already Antique status as are Cone Hammer and most large ring C96 Mausers.
They might be antique to ATF, but to the SASS they are too modern compared to, say, a 1911 so they cannot be used in their competitions. Sorry, could not resist.
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Old September 01, 2017, 23:40   #16
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They might be antique to ATF, but to the SASS they are too modern compared to, say, a 1911 so they cannot be used in their competitions. Sorry, could not resist.
The SASS are seriously Assclowns

I used to shoot at SASS/CAS events, always had idiots who whined my Merwin & Hulbert DA Pocket Army model in .44-40 was not period correct
most of those morons were sporting new Ruger Vaccaros

Buddy shoots at blackpowder shoots with an original underhammer target rifle
tards constantly complained underhammers were not period correct too
most of those greaseballs carried Thompson Center Hawkins with their coil spring locks
You should have heard the whine fest when I completed my breechloading flintlock Ferguson ! Hell that's an exact reproduction from the Revolutionary War.

BPCR rules used to dictate side hammer actions only
Even rolling blocks were not period correct
They still don't really allow Sharps Brochardts, Martinis and other striker fired designs in standard competition
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Old September 02, 2017, 22:48   #17
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My post was hasty,i know those are exempt already,i was thinking of a different maker but was brain farting.

would be nice if the likes of maxims,vickers,lewis guns and such would be exempt,specially due to the cost of these things and the fact that i seriously doubt any nefarious acts would be perpetrated using these also due to the rarity of them. But some douche would probably prove me wrong.

anyway,if any firearm over 100 gets to be an antique,it will make collecting more easy.
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Old September 03, 2017, 01:16   #18
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Originally Posted by fnogger View Post
Can you use a pre-1899 receiver from say, a mauser, and legally build a pistol off of it without a tax stamp? Or even though "they aren't firearms", they are enough of a firearm to still fall under NFA rules ?
(Verify it) but it is my understanding that pre 1899 'shooters' are NOT firearms.

Period.

The only exception is local areas can consider them a "weapon" if your carrying it.
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Old September 03, 2017, 19:48   #19
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(Verify it) but it is my understanding that pre 1899 'shooters' are NOT firearms.

Period.

The only exception is local areas can consider them a "weapon" if your carrying it.
yes & no

A pre 1899 rifle, shotgun or pistol is exempt from the Gun Control Act of 1968

again though if the pre 1899 firearm meets any of the criteria defined under the National Firearms Act of 1935 it remains subject to it's restrictions unless ATFE itself exempts that firearm.

For example I have an original Colt SAA built in 1877 that has a Colt 1860 Army grip frame. The grip frame is cut for the shoulder stock.
Were I to attach a shoulder stock to my SAA it would require registration as a short barreled rifle under the 35' NFA. The issue is that my revolver was modified and thus the stock would not be original to the pistol.
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Old September 05, 2017, 00:38   #20
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Code please.
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Old September 05, 2017, 13:32   #21
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Code please.
Here is the complete original text of the National Firearms Act:

https://archive.org/stream/NationalF..._1934_djvu.txt

read through the definitions
No word of antiques was even uttered within it leaving such matters to regulatory interpetation.

As I noted early on ALL firearms regardless of age were subject to the NFA
For example Stevens Pocket rifles that had been manufactured in the latter 19th Century. This is why so many Pocket rifles are missing their original stocks...folks threw the away. That said there are many still stocked, an indication of just how many Americans thumbed their collective noses at this new Act.

In 1968 Congress created the Gun Control Act
In so far as the NFA all it did was add a new catagory...destructive devices
Additionally it added deactivated MGs in to NFA regulation.
See prior to the GCA you could order a 20mm Cannon and ammo, it was the same as a .22 single shot.

With the GCA which regulated ALL firearms outside the NFA anything prior to 1899 was exempted however that definition did not apply to firearms already under NFA regulation. Interestingly one of the first things Treasury was faced with was interpetation of DDs
See, there were thousands of muzzle loading Cannon in America subject to the NFA after 68' so Treasury just exempted the lot of them. In time that led to formal declarations exempting anything muzzle loading from the NFA and later most antique short barrel rifles. This was ATF, not because of the GCA

Another interesting bit of all this was if a pattern of firearm was made in the pre 1899 era and continuied into the modern era so long as the ammunition was no longer available in ordinary channels of commercial trade it remained an antique.

At one point up through the 70s all .30 Broomhandle Mausers were regarded as Antiques as the ammo was no longer in production in America. Only 9mm Broomies were regulated.
When the first repro Sharps rifles were offered by Shiloh in the farmingdale days you needed a 4473 on any of the .45 variants but .50s were cash and carry as the ammo wasn't really in ordinary channels of commercial trade.
.40-82 Winchester 86' lever guns were made into the 20s...they were also Antiques, same with anything in .50-110 WCF
Same same with 1903 Siamese Mausers...they used to be seen as antiques due to no ammo. Navy arms sold them cash and carry. Now when they rebarreled them to .45-70 those conversions were sold as modern.

This really no longer applies. With the advent of the internet practically all obsolete ammo is now seen as commercially available with the exception of some rimfires. Romero I believe still offers his reproduction Spencer in .50 rimfire as an unregulated Antique firearm...see no one makes .50-56 Spencer rimfire ammo, has been out of production since the 20s.

At one point there was a C&R list of ammunition that was outside Federal regulation. After congress repealed regulation of ammo sales in the 80s that C&R list was eliminated

Understand for years things like Chicago Palm pistols were NFA until ATF exempted them and they started crawling out of the woodwork. Same with Apache knuckle duster revolvers.

There's quite a bit involved in all this discussion
for example ATFE regards boxer primers as a modern ignition device thus regulated. If you set your muzzleloading cannon up to boxer ignition it magically becomes NFA regulated. ATF initially took this stand on modern muzzleloaders too until Congress and the Courts spanked the Bureau badly and exempted them.
Thing is, Boxer primers were invented right after the War between the States...hardly modern eh'

Yeah another wall of text but these things can hardly be even touched upon in a simple paragraph and it's rather important folks fully understand the true scope of Federal regulation.

Last edited by Riversidesports; September 05, 2017 at 14:44.
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Old September 09, 2017, 06:54   #22
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For example I have an original Colt SAA built in 1877 that has a Colt 1860 Army grip frame. The grip frame is cut for the shoulder stock.
Were I to attach a shoulder stock to my SAA it would require registration as a short barreled rifle under the 35' NFA. The issue is that my revolver was modified and thus the stock would not be original to the pistol.
Which is interesting since ATF ruled (for the lack of a better word) that a C96 with a shoulder stock original or aftermarket is not a SBR.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearm...reply-atf.html

ATF does live in its own universe
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Old September 09, 2017, 07:51   #23
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Which is interesting since ATF ruled (for the lack of a better word) that a C96 with a shoulder stock original or aftermarket is not a SBR.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/firearm...reply-atf.html

ATF does live in its own universe
another yes & no situation.
ATFE is fine with reproduction stocks on certain handguns however they must be direct copies of the period originals. Some of the Chinese stocks are technically unlawful to attach to a C96 without SBRing it.

There is one gun ATFE ruled completely differently on and that is the CH prefixed Inglis Highpower Browning. On those you can only attach an original holster stock.

Backstory:
BATF had exempted the Inglis guns back in the 70s due to rarity. No one ever expected during the Cold War that a bit over a decade later tens of thousands would pour in from Red Chinese stores.
Rather than change the status the director of Firearms and Technology Ed Owens kept them exempt however issued a directive that narrowed their exemption.

Thing is you look at GB or other places practically none of the stocked Inglis guns are at all compliant...any given time there seems to be at least a few blatant NFA violations willfully being advertised by vendors.
See the original stocks are quite rare
adding to the issue is SARCO had the Italians clone Inglis stocks right down to the SA Ltd markings so it's rather difficult for most folks to ID a fake.

It's screwy in that you can apply an original pattern reproduction stock to certain FN High Powers, not a bloody Inglis though.

This has led to all sorts of ignorance. Some claiming all stocks must be original to the other side who claims all repros are kosher. That's not how it works at all.

My SAA was never designed to have a stock fixed to it thus to do so even though it's an obvious Antique puts it under the NFA were I to do so.

Another one to be aware of was the universal shoulder stocks once sold by Sears and Roebuck. Nicely made units, nickeled steel that clamped the pistol's grip. These are often fitted up to old S&Ws, IJ, H&Rs, etc. Straight up NFA violation.

All this said ATFE really doesn't seem to be chasing their collective tails regarding these things.
Sort of like DOJ and the switchblade gambit. Back when the Feds were prosecuting those cases most all were referrals from US Customs. These days we have Conexes of Chinese switchblades coming in. BPS is more concerned with synthetic dope than silly pocket knives.

They have even done some very decent things rather recently
for example they now allow folks to have rifling cut in H&R Handy Guns to remove them from the NFA.
There were just thousands of .410 Handy Guns that were never registered. Now you can send off the barrel, have it modified and it's a normal pistol like a .45/410 TC Contender
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