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Old February 13, 2018, 13:05   #1
Trypcil
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Will Military Spending Bankrupt the Nation?

This guy seems to be of that opinion - he seems to hold a valid position, worth the consideration!
https://mailchi.mp/rutherford/commen...a?e=b94fca1bac

Not that history repeats itself, or anything!
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Old February 13, 2018, 13:10   #2
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The nation was bankrupted on December 23, 1913 and has been operating in bankruptcy under the auspices of the Federal Reserve ever since.
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Old February 13, 2018, 13:30   #3
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Old February 13, 2018, 13:54   #4
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Spiritual bankruptcy?
Ethical bankruptcy?
Mental bankruptcy?

These things transcend monetary value and there is evidence aplenty they may already be upon us.
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Old February 13, 2018, 14:05   #5
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Sorry to correct but the nation was bankrupted in 1930 just after the Market crash in 1929.

But this isn't spoken of in polite circles and isn't common knowledge.

But you are correct the nation's money has been under the control of the fraudulent fed for more than 100 years and there was no celebration by the crooks in banking 5 years ago.


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The nation was bankrupted on December 23, 1913 and has been operating in bankruptcy under the auspices of the Federal Reserve ever since.
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Old February 13, 2018, 15:02   #6
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I think we went bankrupt under Nixon when we went off the gold standard and inflated the dollars to lessen it's value, kinda a chapter 11. We haven't closed the doors yet but it looks like it's comming even though we put in a real CEO to run the country. When they beg for private financing to run a government we can't be far from the end.
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Old February 13, 2018, 15:16   #7
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There are a surprising number of people in this country who are under the strong belief that the biggest chunk of federal spending is on the military. Show them hard numbers that welfare type spending is truly the lions share and they insist the numbers are wrong/made up. Absolutely refuse to believe the truth even when handed to them on a silver platter.
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Old February 13, 2018, 15:31   #8
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Originally Posted by clodhopper View Post
There are a surprising number of people in this country who are under the strong belief that the biggest chunk of federal spending is on the military. Show them hard numbers that welfare type spending is truly the lions share and they insist the numbers are wrong/made up. Absolutely refuse to believe the truth even when handed to them on a silver platter.
Well what are you counting as 'welfare type spending'?

Because federal spending on defense, that is military plus all the international military/welfare/bribes we spread around is about $1.2 trillion a year.

And the feds aren't spending that amount on US welfare. Unless you want to include SS which people paid into with the 'promise' of getting a return.
SS is certainly a Ponzi scheme, but not welfare.




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Old February 13, 2018, 15:39   #9
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Originally Posted by NFADLR View Post
Sorry to correct but the nation was bankrupted in 1930 just after the Market crash in 1929.

But this isn't spoken of in polite circles and isn't common knowledge.

But you are correct the nation's money has been under the control of the fraudulent fed for more than 100 years and there was no celebration by the crooks in banking 5 years ago.
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Spiritual bankruptcy?
Ethical bankruptcy?
Mental bankruptcy?

These things transcend monetary value and there is evidence aplenty they may already be upon us.
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I think we went bankrupt under Nixon when we went off the gold standard and inflated the dollars to lessen it's value, kinda a chapter 11. We haven't closed the doors yet but it looks like it's comming even though we put in a real CEO to run the country. When they beg for private financing to run a government we can't be far from the end.
To continue this certainly worthy discussion we're gonna need some sort of definition as to what 'bankruptcy' means. And that's not gonna be real easy because it's gonna dovetail sooner or later into a discussion of what money is.

Normally 'bankruptcy' is taken to mean that an entity cannot meet it's financial obligations taking into account it's revenue stream and liquid assets. Which is why I responded the way I did, before the ink was dry on the FedRes act the country was bankrupt because (a) the country accepted a debt-based money system as legal tender and (b) under such a system the amount of debt will always exceed the amount of money. It follows that the debt could never be repaid with legal tender were it to be called in today, or for that matter at any point in the future.

Although if the debt is allowed to mature over a period of years and the currency is allowed to inflate along with it the system can remain solvent from an accounting point of view for a good long while, in principle forever if not in practice. This is the scam that the Wilson administration adopted back in 1913 for the purpose of funding WW1. And being little progressive bitches they were probably thinking they'd put one over on the bankers. Instead, being stupid little bitches that all progressives are the bankers put one over on them and we're living with it today.

But if we redefine what bankruptcy means then certainly other dates may become significant. In any case that's my definition.
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Old February 13, 2018, 16:24   #10
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Most people do not see the forest thru the trees on this. With the whole Russia fake collusion story unravelling President Trump knows he cannot get a budget deal done after the perps start getting arrested and has to do it now. President Trump knows there are Trillions of dollars that are going to be returned to the treasury when these traitors go down and have their assets confiscated. Trump is always a few steps ahead of everybody.
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Old February 13, 2018, 16:56   #11
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Most people do not see the forest thru the trees on this. With the whole Russia fake collusion story unravelling President Trump knows he cannot get a budget deal done after the perps start getting arrested and has to do it now. President Trump knows there are Trillions of dollars that are going to be returned to the treasury when these traitors go down and have their assets confiscated. Trump is always a few steps ahead of everybody.
An interesting take. Personally I doubt that asset recovery is playing much of a role but I like your point about the heat coming down on the perps and getting the deal done sooner rather than later. Seems to fit all the known parts pretty well.
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Old February 13, 2018, 18:08   #12
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To continue this certainly worthy discussion we're gonna need some sort of definition as to what 'bankruptcy' means. And that's not gonna be real easy because it's gonna dovetail sooner or later into a discussion of what money is.

Normally 'bankruptcy' is taken to mean that an entity cannot meet it's financial obligations taking into account it's revenue stream and liquid assets. Which is why I responded the way I did, before the ink was dry on the FedRes act the country was bankrupt because (a) the country accepted a debt-based money system as legal tender and (b) under such a system the amount of debt will always exceed the amount of money. It follows that the debt could never be repaid with legal tender were it to be called in today, or for that matter at any point in the future.

Although if the debt is allowed to mature over a period of years and the currency is allowed to inflate along with it the system can remain solvent from an accounting point of view for a good long while, in principle forever if not in practice. This is the scam that the Wilson administration adopted back in 1913 for the purpose of funding WW1. And being little progressive bitches they were probably thinking they'd put one over on the bankers. Instead, being stupid little bitches that all progressives are the bankers put one over on them and we're living with it today.

But if we redefine what bankruptcy means then certainly other dates may become significant. In any case that's my definition.

I believe when the government can't make the numbers match they will go for a reset while putting different traitors in charge. The bankruptcy will be when the weight of the country's debts are pushed off on the people as their fault so it's their responsibility to pay it. As in most bankruptcy those who spend the money will get the best part of the deal.

I feel if the country goes bankrupt that those who spent the money should not be allowed to own a fugging thing and should be put out on the streets.
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Old February 13, 2018, 18:17   #13
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Yes, there should be a penalty for driving the Country into the ground! I suspect that if our society was to 'tumble', that many an elite will end up as Dog and Pig food - eased along by servant, soldier or slave, that might be in proximity!
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Old February 13, 2018, 19:43   #14
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Big news around here today....
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...kes/110346058/

"Washington — President Donald Trump revealed his budget proposal on Monday, proposing to cut funding for a cleanup program for the Great Lakes region by 90 percent from $300 million to $30 million next year.

This was a good idea to cut,as it is in all likelihood,just being used as another slush fund to re-direct federal money into democrat campaign coffers. The fact that our so-called "senator" Debbie Stabinow was bitching about it on the radio this morning only confirms my suspicions.

Keep being awesome,President Trump...
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Old February 13, 2018, 19:44   #15
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The nation was bankrupted on December 23, 1913 and has been operating in bankruptcy under the auspices of the Federal Reserve ever since.
WERD!
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Old February 14, 2018, 10:27   #16
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Well what are you counting as 'welfare type spending'?

Because federal spending on defense, that is military plus all the international military/welfare/bribes we spread around is about $1.2 trillion a year.

And the feds aren't spending that amount on US welfare. Unless you want to include SS which people paid into with the 'promise' of getting a return.
SS is certainly a Ponzi scheme, but not welfare.




.................juanni
here is a chart for 2007, just because it was quick to find. I am sure there is one out there for a more recent year.

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Old February 14, 2018, 10:34   #17
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Probably as accurate as the old Food triangle was!
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Old February 14, 2018, 13:49   #18
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here is a chart for 2007, just because it was quick to find. I am sure there is one out there for a more recent year.
Again, you have to add in all the other costs that add to 'defense' such as the portion that Dept of Energy spends on nuke research etc... (which is probably most of their spending because what else to they do?)

Ditto NASA.

Most of the State dept is also 'defense' spending. Cuz you can't spend $48 billion a year sending out passports and and quietly engaging in diplomacy.




................juanni
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Old February 14, 2018, 13:53   #19
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Just before 911 - Rumsfeld announced that 2.3Trillion dollars were unaccounted for - then the Accountancy and Audit realms of the Pentagon get blown Sky high, also Building 7 and all those records vapourise soon after - odd really, I see no mention of that in the Pie chart!
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Old February 14, 2018, 14:19   #20
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Probably as accurate as the old Food triangle was!
Pyramid.

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Old February 14, 2018, 14:33   #21
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Solemn constructs of the Ancient Archons - still have their role to play!?
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Old February 14, 2018, 14:53   #22
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Again, you have to add in all the other costs that add to 'defense' such as the portion that Dept of Energy spends on nuke research etc... (which is probably most of their spending because what else to they do?)

Ditto NASA.

Most of the State dept is also 'defense' spending. Cuz you can't spend $48 billion a year sending out passports and and quietly engaging in diplomacy.




................juanni

There is plenty of dollars that go the other direction too. How about NASA spending money to promote cultural diversity? Besides, much of the military and defense contractors have become experimentation labs for social programs/ideas pushed by the left. If you want to parse it all out to boost the total dollars on defense, the same parsing will boost the spending on social programs too.

Once again I point out there are people who cannot get past their construct that defense is the largest portion of federal spending.

Put that "minor" issue aside. That pie doesn't break down all the absolutely stupid/wasteful spending that is pork-barreled into legislation and becomes what is simply expected from the Feds. Too fricken much waste.
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Old February 14, 2018, 15:28   #23
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What isn't said is what is Trump doing in the budget, it's always the freak out about one item. Just a short seach and answers appear.

This week, he targets 12 departments for cuts.

The Departments of Agriculture (-16 percent), Commerce (-6 percent), Education (-10.5 percent), Energy (-3 percent), Health and Human Services (-21 percent), Housing and Urban Development (-18.3 percent), Interior (-16 percent), Justice (-1.2 percent), Labor (-21 percent), State (-26 percent), Transportation (-19 percent), and Treasury (-3 percent) all endure cuts. Defense (+13 percent), Homeland Security (+8 percent), and Veterans Affairs (+11.3 percent) receive increases under the plan. . . snip

(Excerpt) Read more at*spectator.org*...
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Old February 14, 2018, 18:17   #24
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Once again I point out there are people who cannot get past their construct that defense is the largest portion of federal spending.
That is because it isn't true.
Defense is simply the largest federal expense.



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Old February 14, 2018, 18:23   #25
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That is because it isn't true.
Defense is simply the largest federal expense.



................juanni
Which you keep saying, but continue to avoid providing support for your argument. Until that time.....
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Old February 14, 2018, 18:36   #26
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That is because it isn't true.
Defense is simply the largest federal expense.



................juanni
No, it's maybe a close third.
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Old February 14, 2018, 18:57   #27
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It's moot of course(meaning its open for discussion) - but I see the Pie more about where taxes are derived. As in Corporate or not! The revenues from the corporate go to military excursions, the non corporate goes to the running of the Nation - the $20.00 Trillion deficit, is the Lag - the Make Up!
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Old February 15, 2018, 07:30   #28
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OK. My take on this. When the founding fathers put this whole thing together, they set it up so that the Federal governments main job was to unify the states, for the defense of them all. Now things have changed a bit since then, with the feds now operating a military to do the defending. This costs money. But as I see it. It is still the main objective of the Federal government. Due to that, they should be spending the most on defense. On that note, I think they should stay the hell out of most of the other crap.
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Old February 15, 2018, 08:14   #29
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Well,

Defense spending for the common defense is constitutional. Look to see how much discretionary spending is enshrined in the constitution. Non discretionary spending is no where mentioned in the constitution.

Zero out defense spending and we still deficit spend in the red every year. Boomer healthcare spending will bankrupt the US.

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Old February 15, 2018, 10:47   #30
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Well,

Defense spending for the common defense is constitutional. Look to see how much discretionary spending is enshrined in the constitution. Non discretionary spending is no where mentioned in the constitution.

Zero out defense spending and we still deficit spend in the red every year. Boomer healthcare spending will bankrupt the US.

Thorack
I don't know if boomer healthcare will bankrupt the nation, I am sure obummer care would. Forced taxes on healthcare you don't need to the point of thousands in premiums was screwing all but the government workers that don't pay bummercare.

Boomers are dying off pretty quick, I have been losing lots of old friends. Who ya'll going to blame after we are gone?
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Old February 15, 2018, 14:59   #31
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Which you keep saying, but continue to avoid providing support for your argument. Until that time.....
Here, let me do that for you.... from 2011 so it has got to be much higher now.

The Real U.S. National Security Budget
The Figure No One Wants You to See

Welcome to the world of the real U.S. national security budget. Normally, in media accounts, you hear about the Pentagon budget and the war-fighting supplementary funds passed by Congress for our conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. That already gets you into a startling price range -- close to $700 billion for 2012 -- but that’s barely more than half of it. If Americans were ever presented with the real bill for the total U.S. national security budget, it would actually add up to more than $1.2 trillion a year.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/1753...onal_security/

He adds it all up, in the link.

We aren't spending 1.2 trillion on welfare.




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Old February 15, 2018, 15:04   #32
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Well,

Defense spending for the common defense is constitutional.
Yes, but common defense isn't a global military empire and supporting a pile of lapdogs, mooches and dictators around the planet.





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Old February 15, 2018, 16:13   #33
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Yes, but common defense isn't a global military empire and supporting a pile of lapdogs, mooches and dictators around the planet.





...............juanni
To be brutally honest there are times when it does. And times when it does not. The devil, as always, lives in the details. The laissez-faire approach only works when it's reciprocated.
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Old February 15, 2018, 16:19   #34
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Yep,

Zero out all that defense spending and we still deficit spend every year. It wont be defense spending that bankrupts the US. Entitlements make up 2/3 rds of fed spending and arent ever mentioned in the constitution. Entitlements will eat up all fed spending long before defense spending will.

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Old February 15, 2018, 19:36   #35
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Are you guys really trying to identify "THE STRAW" that breaks the camel's back??????

How about "THE SNOWFLAKE" that starts the avalanche?

The fact is that this house is gonna burn down to the ground someday. When is the question.

The reason is all of the above, so it doesn't matter which.
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Old February 15, 2018, 20:06   #36
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Being the global sugar-daddy is what will sink us. We need to reign in ALL spending,of ALL kinds. We can still have a very capable military.What does Canada spend on their military? And they have more square miles and miles of sea coast to protect.
I think we spend more on military that the next 8 largest countries,combined.
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Old February 15, 2018, 23:25   #37
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Yep,

Zero out all that defense spending and we still deficit spend every year. It wont be defense spending that bankrupts the US. Entitlements make up 2/3 rds of fed spending and arent ever mentioned in the constitution. Entitlements will eat up all fed spending long before defense spending will.

Thorack
A big part of those entitlements are SS which was always set up as an entitlement but paid for (at least the majority) with specific taxes which were spent on everything else.

Not to mention all the entitlements of retired fed employees and military.


Bottom line, you can't outspend the sum of the 10 following nations on defense without eventually going bankrupt.
Which is how it went with pretty much like every empire before us.
But we want to believe we are special or this time it will be different. It won't be.







..................juanni
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Old February 16, 2018, 06:24   #38
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A big part of those entitlements are SS which was always set up as an entitlement but paid for (at least the majority) with specific taxes which were spent on everything else.

Not to mention all the entitlements of retired fed employees and military.


Bottom line, you can't outspend the sum of the 10 following nations on defense without eventually going bankrupt.
Which is how it went with pretty much like every empire before us.
But we want to believe we are special or this time it will be different. It won't be.

..................juanni
Again, for the slow learners we have been bankrupt since the moment back in 1913 when we gave monopoly rights to a debt-based money system, because from that point forward there has constantly been more outstanding debt than there has been money. And that is how it will remain until the monopoly is revoked. That the loans have not been called in does not change this simple fact and you can no more bankrupt an insolvent entity than you can kill a dead person.

So no, military spending or for that matter social services or infrastructure spending aren't gonna 'bankrupt' us, we're past that. What they will do is depress private sector economic activity to levels not seen since the '30s. Which is to say genuine economic activity, the sort that produces wealth rather than consumes it. Also this sort of spending does set the stage for some serous inflation although you probably won't see Weimar-republic style inflation as this too is out of the hands of FedGov. Fortunately, as hindsight might have it.

For what it's worth cutting back FedGov spending and laying the axe to the root is the right thing to do and I'm all for it. But we really owe it to ourselves to understand WHY we are doing it. Staving off bankruptcy ain't the reason.
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Old February 16, 2018, 09:06   #39
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this country was bankrupted by the creation of "the great society" in 1964.
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Old February 16, 2018, 09:34   #40
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Let's all ask our selves a question or two.

Who in this thread has contributed to social security and expects to collect.

The same question is for medicare and medicaid.

If I recall interest is 9.41% of the 2007 chart.

I would think the interest paid would be a good place to start.

Didn't clinton hand off to to the bush Jr. a nearly balanced budget, meaning no interest paid?

Oh wait, the all the bond holders and note holders suckling at the public tit won't get their gratuity for buying the bonds and a guaranteed income at the taxpayers expense!

It also seems that reagan increased and created the hugest deficit since the founding of the country. ole carter seemed to have a booming economy!

Seems every time a republican gets elected the debt piles on sky high and it take a democrat to get elected to straighten out thed mess the repub creates!

It seems trump is creating a huge deficit as well according to the evening news.

Do You want to live in a country like Russia or Haiti??

It seems what this country is bankrupt in is politicians that put the country first, ahead of their re-elections and contributors and special interest pork barrel spending (no offense to a good pork chop, ham hock or side of salt pork)

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Old February 16, 2018, 11:00   #41
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Let's all ask our selves a question or two.

Who in this thread has contributed to social security and expects to collect.

The same question is for medicare and medicaid.

If I recall interest is 9.41% of the 2007 chart.

I would think the interest paid would be a good place to start.

Didn't clinton hand off to to the bush Jr. a nearly balanced budget, meaning no interest paid?

Oh wait, the all the bond holders and note holders suckling at the public tit won't get their gratuity for buying the bonds and a guaranteed income at the taxpayers expense!

It also seems that reagan increased and created the hugest deficit since the founding of the country. ole carter seemed to have a booming economy!

Seems every time a republican gets elected the debt piles on sky high and it take a democrat to get elected to straighten out thed mess the repub creates!

It seems trump is creating a huge deficit as well according to the evening news.

Do You want to live in a country like Russia or Haiti??

It seems what this country is bankrupt in is politicians that put the country first, ahead of their re-elections and contributors and special interest pork barrel spending (no offense to a good pork chop, ham hock or side of salt pork)

Too many topics here...but...

You should go back and do some reading on Clinton's supposed economy. That economic swell was in spite of his best efforts to crush it with progressive advances. There was a tax cut at the time that helped it along, but it wasn't his idea, in fact he opposed it. Then later boasted about his awesomeness. Whatever.

As to the Repubs/Dems being more spendy than the other... they are each as bad as the other. At one time the Repubs might have been more conservative in spending, later they just gave it lip service, and now (based on the last budget passed) they are openly spending just like their Dem brethren.

A good economy has more to do with policy than party. Tax cuts have generally boosted economic output. But that action has been used by both sides. Kennedy very successfully did it. Reagan got some good use out of it. Clinton enjoyed the results of a congressional pushed cut. There are others.

You cannot suggest the Carter economy was anything but just about the worst ever. Anyone living at that time knows.

Your last statement about no lack of crappy politicians is one I think we all can agree with. Unfortunately, I see no reason capable and honorable people would ever consider getting involved in politics. Therefore we continue to swirl around the drain.
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Old February 16, 2018, 11:08   #42
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Here, let me do that for you.... from 2011 so it has got to be much higher now.

The Real U.S. National Security Budget
The Figure No One Wants You to See

Welcome to the world of the real U.S. national security budget. Normally, in media accounts, you hear about the Pentagon budget and the war-fighting supplementary funds passed by Congress for our conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. That already gets you into a startling price range -- close to $700 billion for 2012 -- but that’s barely more than half of it. If Americans were ever presented with the real bill for the total U.S. national security budget, it would actually add up to more than $1.2 trillion a year.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/1753...onal_security/

He adds it all up, in the link.

We aren't spending 1.2 trillion on welfare.




................juanni
What is the saying? Lies, damned lies and statistics?

You can jumble the numbers in a myriad of ways to make any point you want. The fact alone that your article lumps the entire debt maintenance in with defense says I might not agree with a bunch of other things that were included to get to that 1.2 trillion number.

That's okay. Keep picking your bone. My earlier statement about some people unwilling to realistically and logically re-evaluate a preconceived notion applies here.
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Old February 16, 2018, 12:01   #43
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Are you guys really trying to identify "THE STRAW" that breaks the camel's back??????

How about "THE SNOWFLAKE" that starts the avalanche?

The fact is that this house is gonna burn down to the ground someday. When is the question.

The reason is all of the above, so it doesn't matter which.
I still have the book from the 1970s called "The Comming Crash" that told of the systems immenent crash, I am still waiting.
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Old February 16, 2018, 13:30   #44
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A Changing of the Guard!

In all probability, I suspect there will be a controlled demolition of the World Economy - Hegelian, in nature of course.
There is already 'talk', a 'beating of the Drums' - that 2018 might be the year - they usually tell us of impending crashes - the rest is the prevailing belief - that the sun will rise again, in the morning!

Stands to reason that the ptb behave in their own interests - but, like screaming children - " If we can't have it, then neither can you!" - seems a typical spoilt kids ploy! . The entitled do, as they are inclined!
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Old February 16, 2018, 15:41   #45
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What is the saying? Lies, damned lies and statistics?

You can jumble the numbers in a myriad of ways to make any point you want. The fact alone that your article lumps the entire debt maintenance in with defense says I might not agree with a bunch of other things that were included to get to that 1.2 trillion number.
When the federal government lacks sufficient funds to pay all of its obligations, it borrows. Each year, it must pay the interest on this debt which, for FY 2012, is projected at $474.1 billion. The National Priorities Project calculates that 39% of that, or $185 billion, comes from borrowing related to past Pentagon spending.

39% isn't 100%.


You are seeing what you want to see, not reality because you want to believe defense/national security spending isn't a problem.



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Old February 20, 2018, 22:54   #46
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Student loans and unfunded pension liabilities will however.
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Old March 15, 2018, 09:07   #47
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Wasn't it Afghanistan and military spending, along with the expanding USN Sub fleet - that tilted Russia to collapse? I wonder how they had been calibrating their deficit?
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