The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapons Discussion > General Firearms Discussion

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old January 12, 2018, 14:09   #51
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bawana jim View Post
no really, guy starts a thread about pistol climber carbines of today and the rails go back to the year 18 whatever.. What was just a conversation of opinions turns to a historical fight to the death because RS just needs attention. He couldn't read that the reference to the ladder site was simply a movie that showed clearly how it worked. He had to invoke that no winchester were made back then in 45 colt.

RS is an attention whore at best with his comments and a troll. Derail the thread so you can pound your chest all you want but the fellow wanted to know about today's pistol caliber rifles so a common courtesy would be to start your own thread on the history of pistol caliber rifles.

RS I have you on ignore because you are a troll with nothing of value to post.
hehehehe. Yup. It's like pissin' in the wind, huh? I'm done. Sometimes it turns out hearing the history spoken by the grandkids of those who actually were there and participated ain't enough....
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2018, 14:35   #52
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 19,087
Some of you guys are spot on with your history and it saved looking it up if a person had an intrest in that history. Thank you guys, especially about the government killing off the Buffalo to starve the Indians. Up till now they blamed it on hunters, it brings a different thought.

Back to the topic. Pistol caliber carbines are real fun and if you want fun buy one. It's a challenge to hit a distance but that's the fun. I like the Ruger and Winchester but my friends have some great Henry rifles.
__________________
yellowhand "Six*men*can shut down the whole state"
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2018, 14:46   #53
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by V guy View Post
From the BIG Mahdi Winchester Book that I own.

Pg 208:
"8 of every ten guns were .44 caliber."

Other data:
41,000 1873's were produced by 1880. That figure explains more of Winchester's actual production rate, between 1873 and 1880.

The population of the west, as you even indicate today, was very sparse.

The number of guns matched the shooters needs. Likely few if any buffalo were shot by a bored out Civil war Springfield converted to smooth bore scatter gun.

The Railroads, after 1868 supplied plenty of guns and ammo, even more so after 1873.

Buffalo Hunters and Indian Killers, measured in the hundreds and dozens.
Cowboys and Ranchers fewer yet. Railroad Towns and early cities provided goods for the plainsmen.

I do appreciate this much more leanred and erudite and sophisticated writer of the last few posts..............much more revealing than the far less educated person who also appears.

Don't be 2/12 persons..........it is like the "least" watches, trys to respond, and then when challenged, one or two more cult?? members show up, one a woman?
LOL...I have just elected to refrain from the two of us slinging shit at each other. That drunken Canuck ?
Well it's on there.

Yes the Midas figures are accurate but again it really depends on where regionally. Have to remember 73's were heavily sold on the global market, that's where much of the .44s ended up particularly South of the border and in Australia as well as the Cape colonies...even China and the Russias.
Again in much of America the .44 was simply seen as too much gun for particularly small game but even up to and including Deer.
Consider when the 92 came out in .25-20 it was a popular gun in New England.

The issue as always what folks could afford and that includes the fodder. .25 and .32 Winchester loading tools are rank common finds up here. .44-40 is VERY scarce. That in itself speaks volumes as the .44 ammo was nearly twice the cost of the other two.

I keep feeling the need to remind you folks I am only speaking with regards to my own backyard, Northern MN, the Dakotas and MT. These areas were settled very very late in the 19th century, mid to the late 80s and most of the folks were extremely poor, fresh off the boats at Ellis Island
and there were other factors little mentioned...

The side of the family from Norway came over to fight for the Union with enlistment bonuses and land promisory notes. After the war the Men settled in the Detroit Lakes MN area around 1868. Had a couple good years then were wiped out several years in a row by the Locust swarms. That's how they ended up hauling overland freight from Mandan to the Deadwood gold fields.

Locust just destroyed early agricultural efforts in the Red River Valley, folks just gave up and abandoned land claims in droves V. Hard, very hard times.
In 1876 there really was not much in the way of rail in North Dakota. Granted by the mid 1870s the Northern Pacific had reached Bismark but the bulk of shipping was still steamer. It wasn't until the 1880s they had a bridge across the missouri. Prior to that they ferried cars across the river on barges or laid seasonal tracks over the ice in the winter
You also need to get your head around that trains often ended up stranded during the winter during the all too common blizzards.

Regarding use of smoothbored fowlers against Bison. It was rank common, wasn't ideal but when it was all one had that's what you used and that's all most sod busters owned. Think on it a bit, Poorboy percussion rifles were still being sold into the 1930s Turner Kirkland used to remark about this in his early Dixie catalogs. .32 & .36 were the common bores and were deer killers. What will murder bambi kills a bison V. Just takes one well placed shot.

I'm sure you have a Flaydermans. Page through what was on the market from 1865 to 1876. There were dozens of dozens of larger bored single shot rifles contrasted to a handful of repeaters and big bored Dangerous Game guns
That's what a Sharps was and the vast bulk were .50-70 arsenal conversions of percussion carbines, mostly reline jobs. By the mid 70s a bunch were getting condemned by Ordinance and were largely railed East to Bannerman among others. Most of those were exported, same had occured with surplus Henry rifles. A large number were sold to the Turks. They also purchased an assload of 1866 rifles.

I got to know Midas pretty well, a fountain of knowledge but a nasty old shit. Family was out of Wisconsin, Eau Claire vacinity. They used to have a kinda cool shop there at least up through the 90s.
Time was in the 60s/70s MN was the center of Winchester and Cowboy collecting. You had the Winchester Steak House in Cass Lake, probably over 100 high end rifles on display then you had another one in Shokopee MN. That was just insane. The family was buying up outlaw guns and Winchesters going back into the 30s. When the collection was broke up it went through a late buddy of mine, Fast Eddy Kokowski. Incredible shit with utterly solid provenance. Thing was when it was gone Eddy started forging documentation up to spin a coin.

Today this State is still insane for high end
In Duluth you have the Puglisi Gun Emporium, they are a huge name family in the collectors industry. There is LeRoy Mertz, Jim Goergen, more and these are folks that are vendors with large numbers of extreme high end 19th Century rifles, multi generational family businesses V. You don't much find this in any other State in the Union. These are the kind of folks I grew up dealing with.
Within those circles I AM one of the "experts" they seek out.
all that patting my own back aside I'm still dumb as a box of rocks outside this backyard. Upper Plains I can write books on

Take Venturino with a huge bag of Salt.
Yeah I have met the dotard

try this:

"Winchester 73's were manufactured in the following caliber's --22 short --22 long --32-20--38-40--44-40"

Know where that came from ?
The Winchester archives page I linked above...just scroll down to the bottom.
so who is right ?
butterball Venturino or the company archives ?

There are a few writers I have worked with, plenty of shit was just totally forgotten
Early Remington lore is very thin
no mention is really made of the 20 gauge rolling block shot pistols the company manufactured. Until recently when I shipped an action to a writer nobody seemed aware of the Bronze framed RRB clones marked with the Mex Eagle that were ran in small numbers in the late 1860s by the Mexicans.

Flaydermans has numerous errors, for example Brown bolt action rifles were made in not just .58 RF but .58 CF as well. Basically Venturino is a reporter who writes fun reading but his product is in NO way reference material
That may bust some tiny bubbleheads but it's fact
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2018, 15:49   #54
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCdnSoldierInTx View Post
The point I was trying to make is that the killing off of the great herds was necessary to control certain bands of Indians.
The Plains Indians were nomads. Their hunters more or less followed the herds. The great herds were their primary source for almost everything.

Yes, most of this took place in the upper Midwest and middle west. From Kansas north up to the treeline in Saskatchewan and across.

Many in the US Army wanted the buffalo killed. Same with the NWMP in Canada. They recognized that with the buffalo gone, corralling the Indians would be easier.

I realize the Sharps was not the most prolific rifle on the plains, but of most of the true professional buffalo hunters either had, or wanted a Sharps.
I know that millions were killed with pistols, hell the Indians had been driving them off cliffs and using pikes and a bow and arrow for centuries, but the White Man turned buffalo hunting into a factory job.

My folks retired in Regina, Sask. That town started as a buffalo hunter encampment on the great plains. There wasn't nothing there but a fork in a creek, ticks, fleas and a gazillion mosquitoes.
But once upon a time, there were millions upon millions of buffalo, and the town got it's first name "Pile o' Bones" from just that, the mountains of buffalo bones piled high on the prairie.

Eventually, someone figured out the land was fertile and would grow anything, so it grew into an ag town, then they figured out why stuff grew so well and started extracting the nitorgen rich nutrients as "Potash" and the PCS Corp was born and we had modern nitrogen fertilizer.
Then they found oil......
Well we are really not far apart ya damn drunk...

Couple things though:

First off just a few tribal groups were hunter/gatherers CDN
both Souix and Cheyanne gardened, both started as agricultural nations until getting their savage asses displaced. Just a ton of documentation on this from the early 19th century.

The Northern Cheyanne were mostly woodland Cheyanne out of MN, their ancestors were likely the Mound builders, Laurel, Blackduck and Copper culture peoples. Souix were little different really as much as I harp at them.

Driven from MN the Cheyanne integrated with the Hadatsa, Arikara and Mandans of the upper Missouri basin. Last solid reference to the people can be found in the journals of Count Beltramie who wintered over with Yellowhead's band on Star Island in Leech Lake. Maybe a quarter of that isolated band were Blondes if we believe period accounts.

You can also read up on early Jesuit accounts regarding agriculture.

Nope, again it wasn't about control of a few sparse bands of Natives
again, Railroads were unable to sell farm tracts along the rail lines with herds of Bison threatening to stomp out the crops. Buffalo had to go to open the land for Euro colonization.
In North Dakota upon completion of tracks the NP received huge land grants north and south that they sold. Along the route communities were platted. Just can't do that with Bison herds

Additionally there was tons of game in the area other than Bison, Deer all over the place for heavens sake, jack rabbits, etc.
No Bison didn't mean no food dude

Yeah brought up bone pickin' in other threads
no one did it until it became "patriotic" during WWI and had nothing to do with fukin' "fertilizer" but it was the potash that was refined into phosphates for HE. Same reason bird shit covered islands were so important to England.
same reason why the north produced so much powder during the War between the States. It was all the PooP. South mostly relied on bat shit mined from caves or Chicken yards.

Sharps ?
Wanting one did not equal having one CDN & professional Bison hunters simply didn't. Some accounts of for each shooter there were 3 percussion rifles with a crew loading then handing them off. Again the value was in the capes which were salted up and processed into riding blankets, laying on one right now. Another thing that used to be common up into the 70s but just vanished. Past that tongues maybe humps were cut. Rest rotted.

Anyways the Bison extermination was mostly about railroad speculators making money. Hostiles were extremely rare, majority of Natives wanted to be like Whites but we just screwed them again and again.

I realize your narrative keys in with Bigot Jimmy's thinking, was also aware I'm on his ignore list. Sensitive gurls are like that
Bottomline when some clown cites a known manure spreader like Venturino well expect me to call you on it and attempt at least to make you good folks think a bit of this this through absent your correspondent de jour dude.

I'm a Dick that way Okay
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2018, 16:38   #55
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,446
Sorta like trying to piss into a sample cup while standing outside in a hurricane.
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2018, 17:18   #56
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCdnSoldierInTx View Post
Sorta like trying to piss into a sample cup while standing outside in a hurricane.
Well you are the one citing an now very easily proven liar as your source "Windsor"

again, you don't even try to refute the .45 1873 myth even after I posted links to the Winchester archives. Like WTF is wrong in your head ?
Too much ghey sex with the priest when you were a kiddo

Look buddy, start to investigate on your own
I understand you are all hyped up on these things, thats super cool with me as it may motivate you in your research. I'm just saying the image you want to portray is damn elite so treat as such
It wasn't common for folks to have to have either lever guns or Dangerous Game guns up here.

If you want we can discuss Canada. I was doing shows in Manitoba and even Vagina back in the 70s.
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2018, 19:58   #57
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Aww Hell, I'm bored
Let's discuss our 51st State, Canuckastan !

So whatcha think they were hosing Bison with in Manitoba through Alberta brite eyes ?
Largely .577 Snider sporters
There were close to NO Sharps on the Canuck Plains

Interestingly Canucks bought wild shit, mostly crap that wasn't moving in America. Never saw one Bullard lever up here, brought down over ten out of Canada in the 1990s. Best big bores mades, rack and pinion action. Almost unknown stateside. When the corp plunged into bankruptcy much of the stock was bought up and went north. Winchester bought up the remains, they did the same with Whitney and Burgess.
Winchester liquidated the Whitney assets in the 1960s to Turner Kirkland. Just a mess of new old stock barrels and shit. I was still getting new Whitney bbls from Dixie up into the early 90s for like thirty bucks.

Canuck natives bought a ton of 73's
most were immediately cut down between 15 to 20"
made them easy to handle. The old term was Blanket guns, later folks referred to them as Canoe guns.

Another unique Canadian mod was scalloping out the comb of stocks CDN
This started in the front stuffer era. See it had to be done if you expected to make cheek weld in the winter while wearing a Bear or Bison parka. It was a common Ordinance mod in western Canada.

Another thing that was widely done was painting guns down with lacquer
We have bought just ugly guns that with acetone cleaning were 70% + blue
Yanks tended to use oils and grease on externals, Canucks were sensible applying old English/French logic to the problem

Btw, the NWMP was hardly anti Indian, how the fuk do you think Sitting Bulls band were granted safe passage into Canada after the Little Big Horn ?
You do realize thats where the Nez Perces were headed to...
bunch of that crap happened including a small crew of Cavalry who refused to shoot down their mounts and instead drove them cross country across into Canada when Patton was pushing his mechanized "Calvary". There is a display in the NWMP museum in Vagina.
Yep, straight up American deserters welcomed into and protected by the Mounted Police who absorbed the Horse stock. A few joined up with the NWMP.
I mean did you ever tour their museum ?
or just read horseshit written by some failed East Coast reporter...

Man I can just go on and on with this regarding the wrongfulness of your Cowboy fantasy so suck it up, slurp it up and lick the dick dummy
you were the drunken elf who started all this with your idiot Goering post.
I suggest you remember that.
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2018, 21:00   #58
Brush511
Senior Member
Silver Contributor
 
Brush511's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 15553
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: WA
Posts: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post

Man I can just go on and on.........
Yes you could and do!
__________________
Dave


Greag Dbubh Chlann Chatain
Na bean do'n chat gun lamnainn!

"...true FAL-loving activities like building an FAL in a secluded shop in remote areas of the American Redoubt." brunop
Brush511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 12, 2018, 21:28   #59
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush511 View Post
Yes you could and do!
Well, why not ?
Is there some special secret rule regarding correcting blatant lies directed against oneself or folks posting up asshatery like Winchester introducing .45 Colt 1873s in 1880 ?
I mean this is gut busting shit !

The Windsor infused Drunk Canuck won't respond, he knows he shit all over his bed this time
don't worry, in a few minutes he will come to, reach over for his obligatory bottle of gut rot wondering why his bedroom stinks like a litterbox
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 13, 2018, 14:28   #60
V guy
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
V guy's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 10282
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: miami
Posts: 16,414
I did more research and found the reason why Winchester did not originally chamber the 1873 Rifle for .45 Colt, when it was introduced.

From Leverguns:

"But the research I did back in 1984/85 for my first book on leverguns shows that the 45 Colt handgun round was a proprietary round developed and patented by Colt for the Army.

Colt never gave permission to other companies to chamber any guns for it.

That included S&W, Winchester, and later Marlin....so the 44-40 became the revolver/rifle classic. Colt did sell 45 caliber handguns to the public early on when U.S. Army orders slowed...but wouldn’t let other manufacturers chamber for it, even though it wisely chambered the Peacemaker in 44-40 to gain more sales.

That’s not being critical of Colt, it’s a fact of history....so by the time the patents and design copyrights fell into public domain later."

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/pa...ltlevergun.htm

Now Canadian is a stand up guy, I want you to know.

According to Mahdi, the custom orders coming out of Winchester were prolific.

Did Winchester ever make .45 cal barrels?

You bet your bippy they did, in 1876.
As part of the development of the 1876 Winchester, plenty of experiments were made regarding action strength and prototypes were made in a variety of calibers, as its history shows.
Yes the 1876 was a.458 bore, but .452 is on the way, and you know it happened.

Only the Patent prevented Win from marketing the guns officially, but special orders were always a different thing. But according to other research, in a pinch you could fire 44-40 in a .45 peacemaker, and 45 colt in a .44.40 rifle. It is still being done today accidently. The 44-40 brass expands to seal the chamber but the bullet rattles down the bore.

The .45 in a 44-40 rifle will work if the throat is loose and the lead bullet will obturate easily down the bore.

In handguns shooting .45 in a 44-40, accuracy is said to be acceptable, but 44-40 in a .45, is kind of a pattern.

So on the Frontier, where ammo was scarce at times..."emergencies are the mothers of invention", especially when an indiginous Hostile is bearing down upon you.

Yes the .45 colt and the 44.40 won the west, along with a lot of grit.

Last edited by V guy; January 13, 2018 at 14:40.
V guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 13, 2018, 16:01   #61
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,446
Actually, you can't fire a 45 Colt in a 44-40 rifle.

I know. I've tried. By accident. Twice. It won't chamber whatsoever. My saddle rifle is some serious kind of ancient and well worn, yet it doesn't even try to chamber.
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 13, 2018, 16:58   #62
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by V guy View Post
I did more research and found the reason why Winchester did not originally chamber the 1873 Rifle for .45 Colt, when it was introduced.

From Leverguns:

"But the research I did back in 1984/85 for my first book on leverguns shows that the 45 Colt handgun round was a proprietary round developed and patented by Colt for the Army.

Colt never gave permission to other companies to chamber any guns for it.

That included S&W, Winchester, and later Marlin....so the 44-40 became the revolver/rifle classic. Colt did sell 45 caliber handguns to the public early on when U.S. Army orders slowed...but wouldnít let other manufacturers chamber for it, even though it wisely chambered the Peacemaker in 44-40 to gain more sales.

Thatís not being critical of Colt, itís a fact of history....so by the time the patents and design copyrights fell into public domain later."

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/pa...ltlevergun.htm

Now Canadian is a stand up guy, I want you to know.

According to Mahdi, the custom orders coming out of Winchester were prolific.

Did Winchester ever make .45 cal barrels?

You bet your bippy they did, in 1876.
As part of the development of the 1876 Winchester, plenty of experiments were made regarding action strength and prototypes were made in a variety of calibers, as its history shows.
Yes the 1876 was a.458 bore, but .452 is on the way, and you know it happened.

Only the Patent prevented Win from marketing the guns officially, but special orders were always a different thing. But according to other research, in a pinch you could fire 44-40 in a .45 peacemaker, and 45 colt in a .44.40 rifle. It is still being done today accidently. The 44-40 brass expands to seal the chamber but the bullet rattles down the bore.

The .45 in a 44-40 rifle will work if the throat is loose and the lead bullet will obturate easily down the bore.

In handguns shooting .45 in a 44-40, accuracy is said to be acceptable, but 44-40 in a .45, is kind of a pattern.

So on the Frontier, where ammo was scarce at times..."emergencies are the mothers of invention", especially when an indiginous Hostile is bearing down upon you.

Yes the .45 colt and the 44.40 won the west, along with a lot of grit.
Thanks
I have heard that before, I don't know if it's factual though V
Generally speaking cartridges are not patented or proprietary company property.

A more modern example was when Glock "stole" the .40 S&W round ahead of Smith's release of it

And consider even if that was true regarding the .45 Colt round then why wouldn't Colt have offered it in either their Burgess Lever or Lightning Pump rifles ?

Why would not Winchester done the same with their rounds ?

There were agreements between Colt and Winchester
one quiet one was that Colt agreed to stay out of the Rifle business, Winchester out of handguns. Thing was Sam Colts son ? decided to buy the Burgess patents which resulted in Winchester running up an experimental DA revolver. Shortly afterwards Colt sold the Burgess assets to Winchester
Winchester also bought into Whitney, Bullard and other competition eventually dissolving those companies. They were furious with Savage and not very happy with the Stevens Hi Power either
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 13, 2018, 18:35   #63
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,446
Fact is, Colt has made some real stupid decisions in its lifetime. One huge one being Sam Colt's absolute unwillingness to listen to anyone tell him that there might be a "better way". Like the complete bore through of the cylinder to accept a metallic cartridge. That boner basically gave life to S&W who then developed the swing out cylinder for a metallic cartridge. Colt was caught flat footed, lost huge money and ended up settling on the loading gate design, which was really a stopgap measure.

For whatever reason, whether it was Colt or the Army, the 45 had to be specifically special ordered if you wanted it in your rifle, and like has been said before, money buys anything... there are more than a few documented original 73s out there in 45 Colt.
The ones that are wrong are the 66s in 44-40. They were only offered in 44 Henry rimfire.
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 13, 2018, 18:46   #64
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,446
Oh and RSS, I ain't discussing Canada. Theres plenty of bow and arrow koolaid drinking old timers who've told me what I needed to know.
The point I was making was that the Buffalo were hunted almost to extinction in 20 or so years, and it was under the hat whispered policy that it was a good thing to do to control the redskins.

And most Sharps on the prairie weren't your idea of a Sharps. Most were earlier converted cap and ball and 69 pattern rifles. The 74s took awhile longer and were expensive. The Sharps 'sporting rifles' really didn't go west, but remember, Sharps made military rifles long before they made "buffalo guns".
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 13, 2018, 19:38   #65
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCdnSoldierInTx View Post
Fact is, Colt has made some real stupid decisions in its lifetime. One huge one being Sam Colt's absolute unwillingness to listen to anyone tell him that there might be a "better way". Like the complete bore through of the cylinder to accept a metallic cartridge. That boner basically gave life to S&W who then developed the swing out cylinder for a metallic cartridge. Colt was caught flat footed, lost huge money and ended up settling on the loading gate design, which was really a stopgap measure.

For whatever reason, whether it was Colt or the Army, the 45 had to be specifically special ordered if you wanted it in your rifle, and like has been said before, money buys anything... there are more than a few documented original 73s out there in 45 Colt.
The ones that are wrong are the 66s in 44-40. They were only offered in 44 Henry rimfire.
Legend is Rollin White despised Sam Colt thus never offered the patent to him. Interestingly that's another old fantasy that the patent covered bored through chambers. See pin fires had been made that way since the 1840s. The patent really only covered bored through cylinders using rimfire ammo.

There was just tons of patent infringement too...

Again and again, Winchester never made but one 73' experimental in .45 long. There were even in depth reviews done of factory records, nothing turned up. The guys in WACA were big in this once the records were transferred to Cody disproving the few forgeries that seemed to turn up CDN.
Are there old 73's in .45 long ?
Sure but they also are NOT factory guns Period

Damn straight there were a crap ton of Sharps that were not 74's
Most as I stated were relined up into .50-70 and stayed in service until the early to mid 1870s when they were shipped east and surplused to Bannerman and others. Thus those didn't enter the marketplace nearly until the time the 74' was available.

Ton of guns were involved in the demise of the Bison
The cartridge Sharps was a small player is all I am stating.
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 13, 2018, 20:30   #66
nvcdl
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 1312
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 1,452
From what I've read the early 45 Colt cartridges had smaller then normal rims as the peacekeeper was originally designed for a 44 cartridge - to put 45 Colt in they needed to decrease the cartridge size so reduced the rim to a minimum. Hence it wouldn't work well in a lever gun.

Course it could be total BS ....
nvcdl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 13, 2018, 20:41   #67
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 19,087
While you guys were talking pistol caliber rifle I was buying a 94 Winchester in 44 mag today.
__________________
yellowhand "Six*men*can shut down the whole state"
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 14, 2018, 08:55   #68
yovinny
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,811
You have to love Sharps rifle co...

I mean,,Anyone who built a coffee grinder into their butt stocks really knows the priorities in my book...

Would that make them the first 'platform' firearm ?
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 14, 2018, 10:40   #69
ftierson
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 13827
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 15,414
Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
You have to love Sharps rifle co...

I mean,,Anyone who built a coffee grinder into their butt stocks really knows the priorities in my book...
There is that...

Forrest
ftierson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 14, 2018, 10:43   #70
MAINER
Old Salt
Bronze Contributor
 
MAINER's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 18465
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 9,610
Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
You have to love Sharps rifle co...

I mean,,Anyone who built a coffee grinder into their butt stocks really knows the priorities in my book...

Would that make them the first 'platform' firearm ?


Seems to me they could claim to be the originators of the term "multi-tasking".



We now return to "The History Wars", or Where tha 'ell did all them Buffs go?
__________________
Lord, keep your arm around my shoulder and your hand over my mouth.
MAINER is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 14, 2018, 11:11   #71
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Sharps never built the so-called "Coffee Grinder" guns
They were the idea of an Army Officer who obtained permission to field test the grinder equipped guns at his own expense and the grinders were fitted aftermarket.

The utility of the grinders with Coffee has been proven to be about zero as you basically get to grind a couple beans at a time at best. Some historians have proposed they were used for dry Corn to make Mush but there really are little records concerning their actual field usage.

The earliest attribution to being "Coffee" grinders came in very early Bannerman catalogs, the PT Barnum of surplus.

Oh and just so no one gets their panties in a wad regarding my shitting all over another Sharps myth here is what the Springfield Armory Museum has to say about them:

http://ww3.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCG...ABASE=57613798

I am confident though that if Venturino claims otherwise some bozos will believe

Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 14, 2018, 12:19   #72
V guy
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
V guy's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 10282
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: miami
Posts: 16,414
http://www.berdansharpshooters.com/Making_Rounds.pdf

Well over 80,000 paper cartridge Sharps 1859 and 1863 carbines were manufactured for the Civil war, and probably many more, numbering over 100,000.

Linen cartridges, 54. cal, were perfected enough for 6-8 shots per minute.

Prior to that time the 1851 Sharps used a different method of cartridge loading and those guns were kept around for years and years.

Those Sharps guns, early '51 and late 59/63, NOT THE 1869/74 Sharps BRASS SHELL guns, were used extensively in the beginning of the Buffalo hunts, as the 62 g powder charge and the heavy lead bullet did its job.

In 1866, only the .54 cal paper/linen Sharps and the .58 cal Springfield were available in vast numbers to kill Buffalo, and they did.

With hunters in the thousands there were more than enough surplus Sharps and Springfields out there to kill-em all.

Sharps did have a huge presence on the plains.
V guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 14, 2018, 13:13   #73
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by MAINER View Post


Seems to me they could claim to be the originators of the term "multi-tasking".



We now return to "The History Wars", or Where tha 'ell did all them Buffs go?
"History Wars" is a rather apt description Mainer

The rancid revisionism of Western History began before sod was even broke in a great part of the Plains thanks to earlier versions of Venturino, folks like Ned Buntline. I have collected their penny dreadfuls and dime novels for decades. While the ones on celebrating criminality were bad enough, the ones regarding Natives were just way over the top. See "journalism" was just as Fake then as it is now and that's all Venturino is, a present day Ned Buntline, a journalist from back East.
Decent writer, shit poor researcher

Factory records by the way a far from perfect
There was a quiet by huge scandal back in the early 90s concerning Winchester factory letters. See if you knew the right folks for a price you could get a new letter inserted in the files rewriting what a particular gun came with. This was being done with 73's, 76's, 85's and 86's as the SN was located on the detachable lower tang. Time was there were two big Winchester collectors organizations, WACA and one that broke off after a bunch of old farts were busted within WACA for altering the Cody archive.

The inside story is when the Winchester museum was transferred to Cody it came with semi loads of obsolete parts. This included new old stock barrels & frames, blank lower tangs, set trigger assms, you name it...even some furniture. Administrators decided to liquidate much of this in trade work with artisan gunsmiths who were restoring the collection back then. Those parts ended up at the two Cody shows...it was pretty damn wild.
I built up several 86' rifles with mostly new bits mixed with parts guns I was sourcing in Canada at the time.

One of the Cody artisans was taking every beat up cut down trapdoor I dug up in trade. He was rebuilding them into perfect 1873 Custer clones for the 7th Cav re enactors. Things were perfect in every specification. Thing was some scumbags started buying and slightly aging his builds up selling them for just idiot coin as originals
Understand as early as the 30s folks were forging Colt Walkers. Every part built by hand and nearly perfect, same with Pattersons. Number of Confederate Dance Dragoons were forged as well as LeMatts.

As far as Bison guns
Folks tend to miss that the .45 Government round wasn't introduced until 1873 and there really were no big Sharps rounds either in that timeframe.
The military adopted the Allen conversion in 1868, in 1870 they came up with a purpose built breechloader in .50-70.
Stating that Remington started the Number 1 rolling blocks by buying up .58 percussion rifles and cutting them up as donors for both .58 RF & CF rifles a year or two prior to all that selling to both State Militia & the general public.
Just a mess of these were sold contrasted to Sharps conversions as they were less expensive than converting Sharps to fixed ammo.

I few early Bison hunting accounts mention "Needle" guns, general consensus is they were likely very basic sporting rifles built on condemned 1868 Allen conversion actions due to the long, needle like firing pin.

Back to Remington in the mid 1860s they did a Navy contract in .50-45 RF, mostly carbines

Now one thing I will give the Windsor Canadian is after the War between the States many troops mustered out with their firearms, for the most part even Confederates often went home with their rifle.
Thus you had Men returning to Minnesota with Spencers, etc.
one thing folks have a hard time understanding though is nearly all breechloaders were purchased by DC and most who came from the West were simply State militia armed with some form of muzzle loader. Unless it was a battlefield pick up they didn't go home with a breechloader and again, the utility just wasn't there on the frontier for the many reason I have already covered.

Maynards were extremely popular
The 1865 model was rapid takedown. One could have a barrel in .35, another in .50 and a .68 shotgun barrel in roughly the same weight range as a converted heavy Sharps doing it all for about the same cash outlay
Understand the War Department immediately cancelled most all contracts in 1865, manufacturers were stuck with tons of unfinished product, hell warehouses of finished carbines, most all imploded. Doc Maynard managed to last into the 1880s when he was absorbed by Stevens and well past his 1873 model he was still using frames from the war
Bunch of Maynards were Buffalo Guns

Brass case, quick to reload the spents
percussion ignition
pretty easy peasy folks
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 14, 2018, 13:56   #74
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by V guy View Post
http://www.berdansharpshooters.com/Making_Rounds.pdf

Well over 80,000 paper cartridge Sharps 1859 and 1863 carbines were manufactured for the Civil war, and probably many more, numbering over 100,000.

Linen cartridges, 54. cal, were perfected enough for 6-8 shots per minute.

Prior to that time the 1851 Sharps used a different method of cartridge loading and those guns were kept around for years and years.

Those Sharps guns, early '51 and late 59/63, NOT THE 1869/74 Sharps BRASS SHELL guns, were used extensively in the beginning of the Buffalo hunts, as the 62 g powder charge and the heavy lead bullet did its job.

In 1866, only the .54 cal paper/linen Sharps and the .58 cal Springfield were available in vast numbers to kill Buffalo, and they did.

With hunters in the thousands there were more than enough surplus Sharps and Springfields out there to kill-em all.

Sharps did have a huge presence on the plains.
LOL...have you owned and shot percussion Sharps buddie ?

Well I have, never much cared for them. I have owned at least a half dozen I shot, still have a Farmingdale percussion I try to run yearly.
First of they have a floating gas seal that gunks up badly in maybe ten shots, after that the gas blow by is nasty.
Second, they shear the base off the combustable round and drop loose powder below the chamber. Guess what, once the gas seal locks up you end up with a small bomb contained in the forend lever spring recess. Real shitty design. Coupled with the Maynard cartridge it would have been a different deal V. As it stands I have seen them go BOOM.

They honestly were not all that or that popular with those who used them in combat, the bulk of the surplus ended up sold to foreign governments
The French bought a bunch as did the Brits who sent them to backwater colonies like Nepal and India

Then you had crap like Burnsides, Gallaghers and Smiths as well as other less faulty junk. Owned and actively shot most all of them. The Sharps is the best looking and iconic...but:
Of the single shot breechloaders the Maynard was by far far the best of the war but fugly as sin.

As far as presence ?
Okay, riddle me this
Why are they so uncommon today in the Plains ?

They are rather common in New England, same with Spencers but they are pretty few and far between here.
I can buy these guns out east and sell them to other vendors here in the plains at usually a 100% markup who mark them up even more

lot of things are that way like English or LF&C early Bowies or English Dirks

Heck V I do this for a living
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 14, 2018, 14:18   #75
ftierson
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 13827
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 15,414
Speaking of pistol caliber rifles, I also have both the .45ACP and 9x19mmP Marlin Camp Carbines.

Both are fun to shoot.

The .45ACP version was designed in the 1870s to shoot bison, of course...

Forrest
ftierson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 14, 2018, 16:27   #76
yovinny
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,811
Quote:
Originally Posted by ftierson View Post
Speaking of pistol caliber rifles, I also have both the .45ACP and 9x19mmP Marlin Camp Carbines.

Both are fun to shoot.

The .45ACP version was designed in the 1870s to shoot bison, of course...

Forrest
Bison
I thought it was designed to shoot through a horse,,,so you could get the injun hanging off the far side
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 14, 2018, 17:37   #77
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
Bison
I thought it was designed to shoot through a horse,,,so you could get the injun hanging off the far side
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 15, 2018, 00:12   #78
SmokeEater2
Old grouchy bastid
Bronze Contributor
 
SmokeEater2's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 10990
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: NC Arkansas
Posts: 3,803
I heard a rumor recently that Marlin will be offering the .357 lever actions again soon including a threaded barrel model. Have no idea how the quality will be though.

I have one of the Marlin .41 magnum's they made years back and it's my favorite short range deer rifle, I wish they would make that caliber available again.
SmokeEater2 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 15, 2018, 12:46   #79
V guy
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
V guy's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 10282
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: miami
Posts: 16,414
The paper cartridge had the loose powder problem, if you were not careful, but the linen cartridge that was produced by the millions for the government, did not. That problem was solved by 1859, well before the war and the Linen cartridge existed for the next 50 years in surplus stores.

The Sharps Rifle, was available in large numbers, as pointed out, in all models.

I spill bp on my cap and ball pistols regularly. I shoot a lot of bp.

The loose powder problem was solved before the great use of the paper/linen cartridge; besides, what rifle man would not blow the excess off and brush it off? But this problem was solved anyway, by the linen cartridge, and used in the war.

Those linen cartridges had a HUGE PRESENCE in the War, and on the great plains killing buffalo. That is spelled " S-H-A-R-P-S".


That is because THERE WERE SO MANY SHARPS PRODUCED, since 1851.

A poor buffalo hunter would have a Sharps or two and maybe a battery of single shots.

15 million buffalo were killed by say 5,000 hunters OVER TIME, using AVAILABLE heavy caliber guns, including banks of 1863 Springfields early on.........many hunters employed SEVERAL MEN AS LOADERS, AND SKINNERS, for the single shot guns. It was a team effort for the most part and well documented.

Was the Adobe Well standoff between buffalo hunters and Indiginous peoples?

The early Sharps, well they were just dandy in Linen or paper, carefully loaded, and these were not neanderthals, they were marksmen, well versed in the use of firearms and brushing off the loose powder to take a shot at a buffalo if they made their own paper and had no linen.

NO, I do not own a linen cartridge sharps, but I may.Navy Arms imported them years ago. I do have a 45-70 Sharps replica, and a 45-60 1876 Win replica.

If they did not use Sharps the most to kill Buffalo, then what did they use?

The later Sharps cartridge guns, in a number of LARGE calibers were purchased after 1875, by hundreds of buffalo hunters who were actually employed in shooting buffalo--- FROM TRAINS. and in the plains hunting parties. THEY shot a lot and killed a lot with helpers, loaders, skinners, teamsters, cooks, scouts, guards, etc.

500 men killing 50 buffalo a day would not take that long to kill everything; as it was, it took 15 years.

Last edited by V guy; January 15, 2018 at 13:05.
V guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 15, 2018, 16:05   #80
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by V guy View Post
The paper cartridge had the loose powder problem, if you were not careful, but the linen cartridge that was produced by the millions for the government, did not. That problem was solved by 1859, well before the war and the Linen cartridge existed for the next 50 years in surplus stores.

The Sharps Rifle, was available in large numbers, as pointed out, in all models.

I spill bp on my cap and ball pistols regularly. I shoot a lot of bp.

The loose powder problem was solved before the great use of the paper/linen cartridge; besides, what rifle man would not blow the excess off and brush it off? But this problem was solved anyway, by the linen cartridge, and used in the war.

Those linen cartridges had a HUGE PRESENCE in the War, and on the great plains killing buffalo. That is spelled " S-H-A-R-P-S".


That is because THERE WERE SO MANY SHARPS PRODUCED, since 1851.

A poor buffalo hunter would have a Sharps or two and maybe a battery of single shots.

15 million buffalo were killed by say 5,000 hunters OVER TIME, using AVAILABLE heavy caliber guns, including banks of 1863 Springfields early on.........many hunters employed SEVERAL MEN AS LOADERS, AND SKINNERS, for the single shot guns. It was a team effort for the most part and well documented.

Was the Adobe Well standoff between buffalo hunters and Indiginous peoples?

The early Sharps, well there were just dandy in Linen or paper, carefully loaded, and these were not neanderthals, they were marksmen, well versed in the use of firearms and brushing off the loose powder to take a shot at a buffalo if they made their own paper and had no linen.

NO I do not own a linen cartridge sharps, but I may. I do have a 45-70 Sharps replica, and a 45-60 1876 Win replica.

If they did not use Sharps the most to kill Buffalo, then what did they use?

The later Sharps cartridge guns, in a number of LARGE calibers were purchased after 1875, by hundreds of buffalo hunters who were actually employed in shooting buffalo--- FROM TRAINS. and in the plains hunting parties. THEY shot a lot and killed a lot with helpers, loaders, skinners, teamsters, cooks, scouts, guards, etc.

500 men killing 50 buffalo a day would not take that long to kill everything; as it was, it took 15 years.
What did they use ?
Man use your head friend. I'll see if I can dig up an older DGW catalog, seem to recall Kirkland at least used to list the numbers of the MANY various breechloading single shot carbines contracted by the Union during the War between the States. A good number were engineered around the .50 RF.
Others like the Maynards, Gallaghers, Smiths, Burnsides used proprietary casings that were ignited by a percussion cap atop a nipple
Then you had the Sharps using a crude combustible "cartridge".

I honestly don't think you totally understand how the percussion Sharps worked V. Whether nitrated paper or nitrated linen the basic design requires a length of the round that leaves a bit sticking out allowing the upper edge of the block to act as a shear to expose the powder to the flash of the struck cap. You don't shear the rear you end up with regular miss as well as hang fires...simply no good.

The only reason they went to Linen was the rounds were more stable, they didn't break down like paper did V. Flipside, powder was far more likely to go shitty due to humidity then being a paper casing.

Folks have been playing with this crap for years trying to achieve reliable ignition.

Let's cover that...

In that era things were simply soaked in a potassium nitrate solution
casing materials ranged from simple cigarette bond weight paper to your Linen as well as high thread count cottons and silks to enhance durability in the field but everything took a simple potassium nitrate soak.

Later, well into the 20th century some folks started playing with acid nitration as well as treatment with chlorate salts on Sharps rounds. Downside is you were creating a Nitro Celluose casing and yeah some guns were just blown up but with a flash paper casing you had positive ignition without shearing to expose the powder core.

I played with flash paper casings back when they still sold it at novelty stores, worked great. That was not what was being used back then though.

You also seem confused about explosive failure inherent in the design. What occurs is that you have a very small amount of unburnt powder they get deposited under the fore end every time you draw the lever down on a percussion Sharps. There is a sizable mortice there to provide clearance for the lever return spring attached to the barrel V. You want to clean that area often if you start shooting these things.
Same with the semi floating gas seal in the block. Thing is many reproductions omit all that.

There were other designs worthy of mention
I have two Fergusons, well one complete and the other is still in the process.
Fergusons were Revolutionary War, real neat dropping screw sealed breeches. Crank the trigger guard to drop the round block, drop in a ball, pour the powder and after you crank the screw home you thumb the ground up leftover powder into the pan then drop the frizzen...cock and fire.
Need to keep them hard core clean though.

America adopted a breechloader real early, the Hall that served into the War between the States. Those were bad, front tip up chamber design. Ton of flash cutting. Sharps was a major improvement.

We actually are mostly agreeing other than my discounting the Sharps brand having played any serious part in the upper midwest V

Again if they were so damn common here, where did they go ?
They rarely were around even as junk bits.
Historically specialist vendors brought this crap in from other regions, a New York sourced Sharps was just another Sharps but if some dummy bought it from the High Plains it was all special & shit.
I mostly just middle man crap anymore collecting my sheckles...

edit to add these graphics
This should explain the engineering fault in the Sharps design I bring up:

https://www.ortnergraphics.com/img/s...ck-loading.jpg

Last edited by Riversidesports; January 15, 2018 at 16:14.
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 15, 2018, 18:59   #81
V guy
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
V guy's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 10282
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: miami
Posts: 16,414
I understand perfectly how the early sharps worked. It depended upon a percussion cap to ignite the powder charge; the linen cartridge was a superior, but not solely used powder container.

Over 100,000 sharps existed; the other brands do not hold a candle to those numbers, except the 1861 and '63 Springfield 58 caliber rifles.

The Army, the Professional hunters, the RR hunters feeding the crews, the vast demand for buffalo hides for boots, belts and hides extended into europe.
some estimates are as high as 50 million bison slain after 1950.

The Sharps, in all forms and calibers, was logically responsible for more buffalo, than all the others combined.

After 1876, the herds were very thin.

A fair read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting

Regarding shooting 45 colt in am 1873 44-40 gun, I have read that many smiths had chamber reamer/drills for creating the original .44 conversions in local shops, and those of course were .45 cal for the home brewed bored thu cylinders.

Using that reamer on a 44-40 rifle to hog out the chamber would allow both 45 and 44 to be fired. BP pressures and balloon head cases would have allowed that to happen.
V guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 15, 2018, 21:07   #82
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by V guy View Post
I understand perfectly how the early sharps worked. It depended upon a percussion cap to ignite the powder charge; the linen cartridge was a superior, but not solely used powder container.

Over 100,000 sharps existed; the other brands do not hold a candle to those numbers, except the 1861 and '63 Springfield 58 caliber rifles.

The Army, the Professional hunters, the RR hunters feeding the crews, the vast demand for buffalo hides for boots, belts and hides extended into europe.
some estimates are as high as 50 million bison slain after 1950.

The Sharps, in all forms and calibers, was logically responsible for more buffalo, than all the others combined.

After 1876, the herds were very thin.

A fair read:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bison_hunting

Regarding shooting 45 colt in am 1873 44-40 gun, I have read that many smiths had chamber reamer/drills for creating the original .44 conversions in local shops, and those of course were .45 cal for the home brewed bored thu cylinders.

Using that reamer on a 44-40 rifle to hog out the chamber would allow both 45 and 44 to be fired. BP pressures and balloon head cases would have allowed that to happen.
and of those manufactured just enormous numbers were EXPORTED V
many don't have a solitary clue just how huge the American contribution to the international Arms trade was, far far less than half of the Sharps made were ever sold here.

That's nothing when you look at stats regarding Remington's sales of their rolling block system which was globally adopted
another was the Peabody system
who was Maxim ?
An American who offered his belt fed MG to our Army back in the 1880s
No interest, the Brits, Russians and other nations adopted it when we were stlll buying Gatlings

In the mid 1850s Colt couldn't keep up with foreign demand, they licensed off production and even built a new factory in England
S&W did the same with their #3 Russian contract

Cowboy and Bison shooting dungeon & dragons faggots mostly look at production numbers which would seem to show every home in America was armed with Colt SAAs, Winchester 73's and Sharps rifles. Reality is most went abroad dude.
America was arming the planet in the 19th century
Opium was yet another huge American contribution to the global economy. back then.

just sayin' stop the popcorn fart fantasy V
while many thousands of Sharps were made here, a great number were NEVER sold here. Sorry friend, that's just the way it was.

Just an aside on the conversion thing
A rather sizable number of Civil War pistols were home converted to fixed ammo by characters with little more than files and hand saws.
That's what legendary Cherokee "bad" guy Ned Christie had done to his pair of 1860 Army revolvers. Allegedly the Christie guns were adapted to chamber .44-40 to match his 73' rifle.
Ned was a blacksmith by trade but only simple hand tools
Damn those walls between the chambers must have been thin huh'

Most of the blacksmith specials were not based upon the Colt Mason conversions either. They cut back the rear of the cylinder leaving a round in the center with the rotational cog then fitted up and brazed on about a 1/4" piece of fitted iron that was then cut for the new chambers. A sheet metal backplate was brazed to the frame itself and hammer nosed.
This was how Remington was doing their conversions as well.
Here's an old photo of Ned before the real bad assholes murdered that patriot dead:

http://porterbriggs.com/wp-content/u...ture-small.png
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 15, 2018, 23:11   #83
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater2 View Post
I heard a rumor recently that Marlin will be offering the .357 lever actions again soon including a threaded barrel model. Have no idea how the quality will be though.

I have one of the Marlin .41 magnum's they made years back and it's my favorite short range deer rifle, I wish they would make that caliber available again.
Why not look at the new Henrys? They use a Marlin like action, but load from the front of the tube.
They offer a .357 Mag and just about any other cartridge you might want and with your choice of stocks as well.
I can also tell you that the new Henrys have by far the slickest action I've ever worked on a levergun.
Out of the box, they are slick smooth like they're lubed with butter man, and the fit and finish on them is perfection.
I'd stake any and all reputation I've made here on saying it, because I personally know four people, not inluding me who've bought them, and each and every one has been absolute perfection.

And, they're made in the good ol' USA, too!
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 15, 2018, 23:42   #84
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCdnSoldierInTx View Post
Why not look at the new Henrys? They use a Marlin like action, but load from the front of the tube.
They offer a .357 Mag and just about any other cartridge you might want and with your choice of stocks as well.
I can also tell you that the new Henrys have by far the slickest action I've ever worked on a levergun.
Out of the box, they are slick smooth like they're lubed with butter man, and the fit and finish on them is perfection.
I'd stake any and all reputation I've made here on saying it, because I personally know four people, not inluding me who've bought them, and each and every one has been absolute perfection.

And, they're made in the good ol' USA, too!
All totally true this time around the fence
absolutely no disagreement at all.

"just watch now Windsor will feel obligated to start hating on Henry products"

it's just a drunk thing
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 15, 2018, 23:49   #85
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,446
?????????????????????????????????????????

Drink much?
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 15, 2018, 23:55   #86
Riversidesports
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 36091
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 4,365
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExCdnSoldierInTx View Post
?????????????????????????????????????????

Drink much?
well you can take the Canadian out of Canada but it's hard to remove the Windsor out of the Canadian
Riversidesports is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 16, 2018, 07:29   #87
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post

again, you don't even try to refute the .45 1873 myth even after I posted links to the Winchester archives. Like WTF is wrong in your head ?
Too much ghey sex with the priest when you were a kiddo
.
I'm going to be banned for saying this, but if you ever, EVER say that to me again, **EDIT** no you know what, I just changed it because you ain't worth it.
That comment was one of the lowest of the ugliest pieces of shit comments that anyone has ever said to anyone on this, or any other board.

You, through this comment alone, have proven how much of a truely useless and hopeless piece of shit you actually are.

I've talked about my Catholic Church kid "experiences" here, and for you, you truly ugly hearted low down earth slithering piece of shit to reach down into your bag of tricks and bring that up and throw it at me like that in a conversation?
You've just proved how useless you truly are.

Go jerk off into a wool sock, jackwagon. Or better yet, go drown yourself.

You crossed a line with that post buddy. I'm done here.
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15

Last edited by ExCdnSoldierInTx; January 16, 2018 at 12:15.
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 16, 2018, 11:14   #88
V guy
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
V guy's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 10282
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: miami
Posts: 16,414
15-50 million buffalo killed by what? Imagination?
Read the link.

It was not done by poor farmers and immigrants needing a pot of stew with their one blunderbuss "as the whole nation was poor."

Shooting from trains and plains shooting teams was rampant until 1876.
Demand for hides from Europe and the Eastern US was high.
Salted meat was also shipped back, all due to the Railroads.
It was done on an industrial scale.

Europe was not the place we exported those surplus Sharps to; Europe was involved in civil wars during that time. As you said, who would want those Sharps?

Remington and S&W weapons were an export item and R chambered rifles for anyone, but the older sharps and Springfields stayed her and killed buffalo by the millions, handled by thousands of shooters and teams.

It happened in a short period of time and was not done by poor farmers with only one gun and 5 cartridges.

Quantity of weapons was tantamount to success.


Sharps did it.
V guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 16, 2018, 11:27   #89
V guy
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
V guy's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 10282
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: miami
Posts: 16,414
To understand the pistol conversion process, you have to read the history.

I have both the big books on Conversions.

The bored thru cylinders, as explained before were NOT enlarged.

The .44 colt cartridge, had a brass shell that was the same diameter as the bullet , at .452. That is so it would fit an original C&B cylinder, once the cap end of the cylinder was lopped off.

44 Colt used a xmas tree base on the bullet (smaller diameter on base--called a heel based bullet) to crimp it into the brass. It was fired down the original .452 barrel. All 3 were the same diameter, case, bullet and barrel, so there were no thin cylinders on conversions. The .44 colt was a .452 and so it was a .45 in all aspects except for brass diameter, not a .44 as named.

The current 44 colt cartridge is the same, except that they now load a .429 dia bullet into it, instead of a .429/.452 heel based bullet. But you can cast your own heel based bullets and load them yourself, just like the originals, but you will have to change to a .45 bbl on a conversion, and that necessitates buying another bbl.

Now if you try to bore those original C&B .452 cylinders to the .473 diameter size of a .45 Colt shell , well that does not work, for the thin cylinder problem crops up.
Kirst and other cylinder conversions, simply load 5 in many of their new cylinders to aviod the thin cylinders.

The New Uberti Richards Conversions are 6 shot and are offered in .45 colt, .44 colt and 38 special.

So, on the Colt and other conversions DONE IN THE LATE 1860'S, they simply bored out the primer cap end of the cylinders, WITH THOSE .45 REAMER DRILLS, and stuffed in .44 Colt shells. Oh yeah the original .44 colt was a rimfire and was used in the 1860 Henry and '66 Yellowboy, and killed plenty of people. The new .44 colt was a heel based bullet like the .44 rimfire, but had a central primer like we use today.

Colt did make new Cylinders for the Richards Transition guns, prior to the 1873 Peacemaker, with the new fangled loading gates, but plenty of Remington 1858's were simply bored out and had no loading gate, just a trough for loading the cartridges, and fired the new .44 colt or the older rimfire .44 colt.

Hence the availability for boring out the far end of a 44-40 rifle chamber to allow the gun to use 45 colt. The 44-40 and 45 colt had the same diameter case, and only the neck area differed and boring out that portion for a larger neck allowed both to be used.

Balloon head cases and low pressure would allow that happy coincidence to happen. Accuracy was about the same.
I would have done it.

Last edited by V guy; January 17, 2018 at 11:20.
V guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 16, 2018, 12:54   #90
Timber Wolf
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 805
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern U.S.
Posts: 4,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokeEater2 View Post
I heard a rumor recently that Marlin will be offering the .357 lever actions again soon including a threaded barrel model. Have no idea how the quality will be though.

I have one of the Marlin .41 magnum's they made years back and it's my favorite short range deer rifle, I wish they would make that caliber available again.
A .41 carbine does sounds very interesting, so does new well-made .357s.
__________________
First rule of gun fighting: "have a gun!"

"Guns don't kill people. Daddys with good looking daughters do!"
Timber Wolf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 16, 2018, 16:16   #91
tdb59
Are We Awake ?
Bronze Contributor
 
tdb59's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 63177
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: ironsman.com
Posts: 10,133
If anyone can post this without getting the ban hammer, WTF are the mods doing ? Playing pat-a -cake with RSS ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post

again, you don't even try to refute the .45 1873 myth even after I posted links to the Winchester archives. Like WTF is wrong in your head ?
Too much ghey sex with the priest when you were a kiddo

Of course DABTL had to do shit repeatedly before he got tossed.


Second verse, same as the first.



.......................
__________________
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

...............
tdb59 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 16, 2018, 16:26   #92
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 19,087
So anyway in handling alone I like the Winchester 45 colt in the trapper size rifle. The Winchester 94 44 mag I just bought holds more rounds but it's just a tad heavy for pistol power. It's all about fun though and I will shoot the bigger rifle until I get tired of it.

I did find some old Speer half jacket bullets at the show with the hollow point and semi wadcutter shape. None of this were made back in 1873 but who cares

Oh and thanks V guy for the Buffalo history lesson.
__________________
yellowhand "Six*men*can shut down the whole state"
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 16, 2018, 19:36   #93
Brush511
Senior Member
Silver Contributor
 
Brush511's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 15553
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: WA
Posts: 999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bawana jim View Post
So anyway in handling alone I like the Winchester 45 colt in the trapper size rifle. The Winchester 94 44 mag I just bought holds more rounds but it's just a tad heavy for pistol power. It's all about fun though and I will shoot the bigger rifle until I get tired of it.

I did find some old Speer half jacket bullets at the show with the hollow point and semi wadcutter shape. None of this were made back in 1873 but who cares

Oh and thanks V guy for the Buffalo history lesson.

Jim, be careful with the half jacket Speers in the carbine. I recall reading in one of the Speer manuals that the aren't recommended in tubular magazines. Apparently recoil can cause the bullets to set back in the case causing pressure problems. You crimp them over the front of the jacket and there is nothing to keep them from being pushed back.
__________________
Dave


Greag Dbubh Chlann Chatain
Na bean do'n chat gun lamnainn!

"...true FAL-loving activities like building an FAL in a secluded shop in remote areas of the American Redoubt." brunop
Brush511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 16, 2018, 20:08   #94
Bawana jim
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 17482
Join Date: May 2005
Location: west coast
Posts: 19,087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brush511 View Post
Jim, be careful with the half jacket Speers in the carbine. I recall reading in one of the Speer manuals that the aren't recommended in tubular magazines. Apparently recoil can cause the bullets to set back in the case causing pressure problems. You crimp them over the front of the jacket and there is nothing to keep them from being pushed back.
Thanks, I remember the warning and they also cautioned about light loads as the jacket sticks in the barrel but the lead keeps going. Years ago I shot a lot of these and found them very accurate.
__________________
yellowhand "Six*men*can shut down the whole state"
Bawana jim is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 17, 2018, 22:55   #95
Brother Wayne
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 77216
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: East of Mt. Adams
Posts: 44
Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaman View Post
Any suggestions on what I should look at?

I'm thinking about getting something... Because I don't have one! It would just be a plinker, I can't imagine hunting with it.

I have a S&W 500 Magnum that I enjoy (as ridiculous as it is). Every time I shoot it, I wonder what it might do out of a rifle.

I also have 44 mag and 357 mag revolvers that I enjoy. I can hit 5gal propane tank size targets 50-100 yards with those and I often wonder how a rifle might perform.

Dad has a tommy gun which is super fun. I've also had semi auto sub guns in 9mm but sold them quickly because... Well, not sure how you're supposed to hit anything without proper stock and sight system. I didn't want to get short barrel stamp.

Any ideas or experience is welcome here!
Aqua man,
Pistol caliber rifles and carbines are a lot of fun. I have a .44 mag Ruger Carbine, a model 92 clone in .45 Long Colt and a High Point in .45 ACP. The carbines are easy on my back and all good out to 100 yards. The .44 mag and the .45 Long Colt are both good for 150 and arching 200 yard shots. My buddy has an M1 carbine clone in 9mm that he loves just for plinking. If there is a spring shoot at Brothers and you haven't bought one yet let me know and I'll bring the three and let you try them. I'm going to shoot the Row Jimmy with one at Oregon in June.
Wayne
Brother Wayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 17, 2018, 23:29   #96
12v71
Perched in the MP
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 71127
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: I'l know when I get there.
Posts: 7,387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Wayne View Post
Aqua man,
Pistol caliber rifles and carbines are a lot of fun. I have a .44 mag Ruger Carbine, a model 92 clone in .45 Long Colt and a High Point in .45 ACP. The carbines are easy on my back and all good out to 100 yards. The .44 mag and the .45 Long Colt are both good for 150 and arching 200 yard shots. My buddy has an M1 carbine clone in 9mm that he loves just for plinking. If there is a spring shoot at Brothers and you haven't bought one yet let me know and I'll bring the three and let you try them. I'm going to shoot the Row Jimmy with one at Oregon in June.
Wayne
I have to say I really enjoy my Uberti Henry in .45 LC, The 94 Marlin in .44 mag and the Rossi 92 in 44-40. They all seem to like banging 100 yard plates. On the subject of 9MM carbines I really need to drag out the Suomi, It's just plain fun. Especially with the 75 round drum.
And it is probably time to start thinking about the spring shoot.
__________________
"Can you lock him out of the marketplace?": My other half talking to Brunop in 2014.

"Freedom is not a crime"

I'm a heavy equipment mechanic because brain surgery was far too easy.
12v71 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 18, 2018, 00:03   #97
Brother Wayne
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 77216
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: East of Mt. Adams
Posts: 44
M1-9

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkshooter View Post
I have never heard of much less seen such an animal. Have any pics? I'm intrigued. What mags does it use?
The carbine that by friend has is made by Chiappa. They call it the M1-9.
It uses Beretta 92 style mags. I don't know how to post pictures yet but if you will go to www.gunsinternational.com and go down to the Chiappa column. Then about 8 entries down you can see a picture of it. Sorry I don't know how to post a link either. I will ask which weight bullet it likes best when I see my buddy L.W. and post his thoughts latter. I know I is partial to a certain weight. When .22 shells were so scarce and so expensive he could shoot that for next to nothing and just giggle like a little kid. It is fun to shoot.
Wayne
Brother Wayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18, 2018, 06:48   #98
Timber Wolf
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 805
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Southern U.S.
Posts: 4,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by 12v71 View Post
On the subject of 9MM carbines I really need to drag out the Suomi, It's just plain fun. Especially with the 75 round drum.
So, yours actually works? Mine is just frustrates me.
__________________
First rule of gun fighting: "have a gun!"

"Guns don't kill people. Daddys with good looking daughters do!"
Timber Wolf is online now   Reply With Quote
Old January 21, 2018, 21:14   #99
Brother Wayne
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 77216
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: East of Mt. Adams
Posts: 44
Update on 9mm M1-9 Carbine

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother Wayne View Post
The carbine that by friend has is made by Chiappa. They call it the M1-9.
It uses Beretta 92 style mags. I don't know how to post pictures yet but if you will go to www.gunsinternational.com and go down to the Chiappa column. Then about 8 entries down you can see a picture of it. Sorry I don't know how to post a link either. I will ask which weight bullet it likes best when I see my buddy L.W. and post his thoughts latter. I know I is partial to a certain weight. When .22 shells were so scarce and so expensive he could shoot that for next to nothing and just giggle like a little kid. It is fun to shoot.
Wayne
I said that I would get back to you hkshooter about the statement I made about bullet weight for the MI-9 carbine. Well I got my information wrong.
My friend L.W. told me this afternoon that the only trouble he had was when we were shooting in cold weather and he had a heavy shirt, a vest and coat on and didn't have the butt stock tight to his shoulder. It was a recoil thing like when you stove pipe shells on a 1911 by not having your wrist and grip correct. When he held the weapon in tight it fed and fired all weights of bullets. Sorry for the confusion. L.W. said if you buy own you will like it.
Wayne

Last edited by Brother Wayne; January 22, 2018 at 09:53.
Brother Wayne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 21, 2018, 21:24   #100
ExCdnSoldierInTx
Old Fart
Gold Contributor
 
ExCdnSoldierInTx's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 65552
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: South Central Merca
Posts: 7,446
Wife loves her Beretta CX-4. 9mm with a red dot, she loves it. To me it's a plastic plinker, but anything that gets her on the range is good in my book.
__________________
" .... basically you'd have to take them head-on, penetrating 4-6 'yotas per round, to avoid wasting ammo." - Enquiring Minds 11/15/15

Last edited by ExCdnSoldierInTx; January 22, 2018 at 00:13.
ExCdnSoldierInTx is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files