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View Poll Results: Have you been screwed?
I never ordered anything from Johnny 59 36.42%
I ordered, and received product timely 49 30.25%
I ordered and received product unacceptably late 8 4.94%
I ordered, and haven't received shit 34 20.99%
I just like stirring shit 9 5.56%
I made multiple orders - one or more arrived late or never arrived 3 1.85%
Voters: 162. You may not vote on this poll

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Old August 03, 2017, 09:01   #601
fireplug
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackmore View Post
It appears the last poster in this thread isn't too happy with his product from DSA.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_7/473...y-.html&page=2
Yeah,crappy DSA product like usual from them with no quality control at all.
Moses and his magazines look like they have pretty much run their course.
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Old August 03, 2017, 09:10   #602
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I didn't know FAL magazines were supposed to drop free. It never crossed my mind. Thought that was an AR deal.
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Old August 03, 2017, 11:08   #603
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I didn't know FAL magazines were supposed to drop free. It never crossed my mind. Thought that was an AR deal.
Given enough clearance, they will pivot on the beak and roll out. Not as graceful as an AR mag dropping free, but it can happen.
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Old August 12, 2017, 19:21   #604
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Asked DSA about selling Moses Mags... This was their response. Interesting.... Thank you for reaching out to us in regards to this matter.

The magazines that we received from MMW and currently have in stock on our site are ones that we ordered April 28th and October 19th of 2015, so unfortunately approximately 2 years ago. We are no different than anyone else in this matter.

The magazines that we received were not even completed, they all required a secondary milling operation as well as assembly. After years of being out of stock and waiting for our orders as well as suffering the same communication frustrations as everyone else, we were finally able to connect with MMW and agreed to have our long outstanding orders fulfilled with the product in this unfinished condition. This in order to serve our customers who keep asking us for them and enjoy doing business with us. They have stated they really wanted to try that particular product for the last several years. We are doing nothing wrong unless others see trying to help our customers as something wrong. Whatever the MMW principle has done to others is really none of our business. In the 30 years DSA has been in business, never have we not stood behind our products or refunded a customer if it was on us. Many times it wasn’t and we were being scammed ourselves or someone was too ignorant to operate the system or use good ammo, but we still took the high road. We are not the owner of MMW nor are we the sheriff of FAL files, quite the contrary.

As far as FAL files and any posts related to MMW, we rarely go on there as it is unmoderated and all we get is grief, lies and slander thrown at us. All posted by a handful of members who think they are FAL experts and know everything about the FAL or what and how we make things, which in many cases are the furthest from reality. If MMW has done anything to members that is unscrupulous, then we suggest the owner of the site step in and do something about it. Perhaps they should do something about all of the lies and slanderous statements that seem to abound across the FAL Files before lawsuits get filed.

DS Arms has the goal to support as many FAL enthusiasts as possible with desirable, historical and functional upgrades. This is in order to keep this rifle platform alive and in service for another 60 years!

In the meantime we are sorry if individuals have had any issues with the MMW company, we simply paid for a product and were finally able to receive it. We hope others receive theirs as well. Thank you for bringing this to our attention and your business over the years. Let us know if there is any further service we can offer.

Best regards.

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Old August 12, 2017, 19:28   #605
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Originally Posted by He11RZR View Post
Asked DSA about selling Moses Mags... This was their response. Interesting.... Thank you for reaching out to us in regards to this matter.

The magazines that we received from MMW and currently have in stock on our site are ones that we ordered April 28th and October 19th of 2015, so unfortunately approximately 2 years ago. We are no different than anyone else in this matter.

The magazines that we received were not even completed, they all required a secondary milling operation as well as assembly. After years of being out of stock and waiting for our orders as well as suffering the same communication frustrations as everyone else, we were finally able to connect with MMW and agreed to have our long outstanding orders fulfilled with the product in this unfinished condition. This in order to serve our customers who keep asking us for them and enjoy doing business with us. They have stated they really wanted to try that particular product for the last several years. We are doing nothing wrong unless others see trying to help our customers as something wrong. Whatever the MMW principle has done to others is really none of our business. In the 30 years DSA has been in business, never have we not stood behind our products or refunded a customer if it was on us. Many times it wasn’t and we were being scammed ourselves or someone was too ignorant to operate the system or use good ammo, but we still took the high road. We are not the owner of MMW nor are we the sheriff of FAL files, quite the contrary.

As far as FAL files and any posts related to MMW, we rarely go on there as it is unmoderated and all we get is grief, lies and slander thrown at us. All posted by a handful of members who think they are FAL experts and know everything about the FAL or what and how we make things, which in many cases are the furthest from reality. If MMW has done anything to members that is unscrupulous, then we suggest the owner of the site step in and do something about it. Perhaps they should do something about all of the lies and slanderous statements that seem to abound across the FAL Files before lawsuits get filed.

DS Arms has the goal to support as many FAL enthusiasts as possible with desirable, historical and functional upgrades. This is in order to keep this rifle platform alive and in service for another 60 years!

In the meantime we are sorry if individuals have had any issues with the MMW company, we simply paid for a product and were finally able to receive it. We hope others receive theirs as well. Thank you for bringing this to our attention and your business over the years. Let us know if there is any further service we can offer.

Best regards.

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customerservice3@dsarms.com
Phone: (847) 277-7258
Fax: (847) 277-7259
Wow, likely they got their mags cause they have the coin for lawyers to sue Johnny.
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Old August 12, 2017, 19:29   #606
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He11RZR,

Thank you for posting this DSA reply. I consider it well written and addressing most of the issues we know about the Moses FAL magazines. Tho I'm sure some Files members will no doubt take issue with it, as usual.
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Old August 12, 2017, 19:34   #607
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He11RZR,

Thank you for posting this DSA reply. I consider it well written and addressing most of the issues we know about the Moses FAL magazines. Tho I'm sure some Files members will no doubt take issue with it, as usual.
It's a little different than when he was dragging dsa's name through the dirt though isn't it?
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Old August 13, 2017, 12:04   #608
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He11RZR,

Thank you for posting this DSA reply. I consider it well written and addressing most of the issues we know about the Moses FAL magazines. Tho I'm sure some Files members will no doubt take issue with it, as usual.
So if i disagree with what DSA said i'm in the wrong because you say so please you are so full of your self so are all of the whiny little b*&ches that cannot wrap their little brains around the fact that a number of people have given them a recourse for fixing the problem of them not getting their magazines.

Is he a crook or a scammer don't know as there have been NO charges filed or any JUDGEMENTS handed down by a court of law.

If DSA fixed their receivers they wouldn't be "lied about or slandered" or anything else they might even be lauded for putting out a QUALITY product but they don't, they lie, they call people names who call them out (a sure sign of a person who has a weak or has no argument to begin with) and they are dishonest with their customers when they say they sell quality products and you believe the response???
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Old August 13, 2017, 19:01   #609
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We've been murdering DSA around here for a LONG time. OTOH, DSA has been lying (read: "baldly lying") to the public for even longer. For those of you who don't remember, you could go back and look at DSA claiming to have "USA-made parts" for 922R compliance which were actually surplus parts (Austrian mostly) with the acceptance stamp/proof mark ground off - mostly.

I personally received such items from DSA when I was new and stoopid and ordered US parts for the compliance game.


Now, as it relates to DSA receivers: either they're in spec or they're not. You don't have to believe Mark Graham, but IIRC he's putting photos and micrometer measurements for you to verify in your laziness - since you won't do it yourselves. For those of you who *are* doing it yourselves, this obviously doesn't apply to you.

When I was building FALs, DSA products ruled: LMT receivers, Austrian parts, etc. Now I wouldn't spend $800 for a $1600 DSA rifle.
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Old August 13, 2017, 19:38   #610
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We've been murdering DSA around here for a LONG time. OTOH, DSA has been lying (read: "baldly lying") to the public for even longer. For those of you who don't remember, you could go back and look at DSA claiming to have "USA-made parts" for 922R compliance which were actually surplus parts (Austrian mostly) with the acceptance stamp/proof mark ground off - mostly.

I personally received such items from DSA when I was new and stoopid and ordered US parts for the compliance game.


Now, as it relates to DSA receivers: either they're in spec or they're not. You don't have to believe Mark Graham, but IIRC he's putting photos and micrometer measurements for you to verify in your laziness - since you won't do it yourselves. For those of you who *are* doing it yourselves, this obviously doesn't apply to you.

When I was building FALs, DSA products ruled: LMT receivers, Austrian parts, etc. Now I wouldn't spend $800 for a $1600 DSA rifle.
I'm. Shocked. Really...
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Old August 13, 2017, 19:58   #611
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This was my original e-mail to DSA: "If you have not read the thread on FALFiles about Moses Mags taking orders for mags over the last year and never shipping them you should. Disappointing that you would sell a product from a guy who has stolen from so many members. He is a criminal and you are helping him get away with his crime by selling his product before he fulfills his commitment to those who have had orders placed for a year and never received them. If you read the thread "Moses Mags MIA" I'm sure you will do the honorable thing and refuse to aid and abet this unscrupulous man and pull this product. At the end of the thread you will see that selling his mags has not gone unnoticed. Thank You." After the DSA response, I changed my mind and was satisfied with what they had to say about the matter. And I wrote back and told them so. Now, I'm not a builder, my FAL is a DSA Imbel kit from 2011 that has been flawless. It's been a real gem of a rifle for me. And all my spare parts are surplus NOS. So I haven't had any dealings with DSA recently so can't speak to the issues written about here on the Files.
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Old August 13, 2017, 20:52   #612
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The above letter from DSA was no more written by a customer service representative than the man in the moon. I have never, never, never known of such a department or even its head to have the authority to threaten lawsuits, unless they are a principle in the company. That letter had the ambiance of one in authority, not a customer service representative. You can take that to the bank. The underlying butthurt was not concealed very well in my opinion.

I have no reason to use Moses mags or any Fal mag because I have no Fal rifle. After following this thread though, Moses has shit in his nest to the power of 10. I have no respect for an underhanded little weasel. ~ss

ETA: I didn't defend my children, nor make excuses for them when they were wrong. Why would anyone defend this behavior from a vendor or even a friend?~ss
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Old August 20, 2017, 15:27   #613
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As of today,Moses still has his web site up and running,and still trying too fool customers into sending him a money order for their purchases,including LEO's which is pretty dumb trying too pull a fast one on law enforcement officers.The man is a complete crook and a fool.
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Old August 25, 2017, 14:42   #614
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He11RZR,

Thank you for posting this DSA reply. I consider it well written and addressing most of the issues we know about the Moses FAL magazines. Tho I'm sure some Files members will no doubt take issue with it, as usual.
Yeah, "slander" to DSA is known as "truth" to everyone else.
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Old September 12, 2017, 13:21   #615
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Anybody received anything from the I am back guy yet ? its now been 5 months since his I am back statement.
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Old September 13, 2017, 12:29   #616
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.. If MMW has done anything to members that is unscrupulous, then we suggest the owner of the site step in and do something about it.
Like what? Ban him? There's enough threads on here telling folks what the deal is so they can make their own decisions as to whether to buy something from him or not. Banning him only exacerbates issues by removing a communication venue imho. The board is not going to hide any issues, protect him, or try to ignore it. It is what it is and it's here for everyone to read and make their own decisions. Moses has a history here which has been bumpy to say the least if you search through his past dealings even outside this magazine fiasco. I truly hope he is going to get past whatever issues he has been having and resolve this with everyone involved, but that is up to him to do.

Quote:
Perhaps they should do something about all of the lies and slanderous statements that seem to abound across the FAL Files before lawsuits get filed.
Please refer to CDA Section 230. I have, in fact, already discussed this with DSA's attorney.

Section 230 has most frequently been applied to bar defamation-based claims. In the typical case, a plaintiff who believes she has been defamed sues both the author of the statement and the website that provided a forum or otherwise passively hosted the material. Courts have held with virtual unanimity that such claims against a website are barred by Section 230.
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Old September 13, 2017, 21:25   #617
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I didn't know FAL magazines were supposed to drop free. If never crossed my mind. Thought that was an AR deal.
They aren't. It would defy physics. "Drop free" works on magazines that insert straight into a well. It the coefficient of friction low enough, releasing the catch willallow the magazine to fall out (gravity). Some magazines are of a dimension where the coefficient of friction exceeds the mass of the magazine and it has to be pulled out.

Some of this friction is overcome by gamers, by flicking the rifle sideways, which imparts inertia on a magazine and sends it flying - overcoming any friction from the fit in the well.

In certain designs, friction is mechanically applied (deliberately) to the magazine, to prevent it from falling free, as magazines are not generally considered expendable items.

The AK, HK, FAL, etc, are cam-lock. The front tab of the magazine is the fulcrum - the magazine is cammed against this fulcrum to lock in the rear. Upon activating the release, the magazine does not drop. It rotates, in an arc, around that fulcrum/pivot. Magazines like the AK, more co, because the center of gravity in the curved magazine, is forward of the fulcrum. A FAL 20, it is directly below.

At some point, the inertia of the arc will come to an abrupt stop and cause the top front of the magazine to move rearward. This usually is enough to pop the tab out of its recess. At that point, the magazine may fall.

I think any claim that it is a "drop free" design is without merit. It can be shaken free, and may fall out (especially if loaded), but it's design makes it less inclined to do so than an AR type.

note, I am not an engineer, and am a little confused as whether static or kenetic coefficient should be applied, nor how to relate normal friction coefficient (horizontal surface) to a mag well, which is a vertical surface.
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Old September 15, 2017, 08:52   #618
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Since DSA claims that the Moses mags were unfinished when they received them - and DSA "completed them". Who is responsible for them should they not function properly? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm sure they wont be as bad as the DSA mags, but that's not saying much. It's been what 5 years now since Dave was put on notice as to the defects in his magazines, yet he still knowingly sells these defective products. It's "The Chicago Way."
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Old September 15, 2017, 09:46   #619
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Since DSA claims that the Moses mags were unfinished when they received them - and DSA "completed them". Who is responsible for them should they not function properly? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm sure they wont be as bad as the DSA mags, but that's not saying much. It's been what 5 years now since Dave was put on notice as to the defects in his magazines, yet he still knowingly sells these defective products. It's "The Chicago Way."
Very good question. I will probably never know because, I will never buy any.
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Old September 16, 2017, 00:47   #620
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Since DSA claims that the Moses mags were unfinished when they received them - and DSA "completed them". Who is responsible for them should they not function properly? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm sure they wont be as bad as the DSA mags, but that's not saying much. It's been what 5 years now since Dave was put on notice as to the defects in his magazines, yet he still knowingly sells these defective products. It's "The Chicago Way."
I bought two and they function fine, the rifle I just got back from dsa for warranty work on the other hand......
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Old September 16, 2017, 07:37   #621
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Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Since DSA claims that the Moses mags were unfinished when they received them - and DSA "completed them". Who is responsible for them should they not function properly? Inquiring minds want to know.

I'm sure they wont be as bad as the DSA mags, but that's not saying much. It's been what 5 years now since Dave was put on notice as to the defects in his magazines, yet he still knowingly sells these defective products. It's "The Chicago Way."
I bought 2 of his mags some time back and they were a disappointment at best.
If you use the logic of your average 1911 guy maybe they function better after a
1000 rd break in.

So no comments about the maker of the magazines.....liar, cheat, thief?
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Old September 16, 2017, 20:22   #622
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I noticed DSA sells L1A1 mags listed as 'surplus'. Are these actual surplus inch mags or DSA made? Anyone know?
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Old September 17, 2017, 08:01   #623
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Used, L1A1 mil surp. Good to go and not a bad price either. Grab all you need and spares while you can. Generally $40.00+
https://www.dsarms.com/p-13856-fal-l...condition.aspx
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Old September 17, 2017, 09:10   #624
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So no comments about the maker of the magazines.....liar, cheat, thief?
He's referring to DSA's mags, so yes, he's used all three verbs in conjunction with Dave S. and DSA before.
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Old September 17, 2017, 10:00   #625
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He's referring to DSA's mags, so yes, he's used all three verbs in conjunction with Dave S. and DSA before.
I understand 2barearms may have an issue with Moses, but I can't remember any dealings with moses at all. So I stayed out of the "where are my mags" debacle Not sure why it irritates this phuquenyutte so, but she has been trolling me for some time, demanding I make some official declaration on the Moses thing. - I figured others had covered it pretty well.
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Old September 17, 2017, 11:27   #626
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I understand 2barearms may have an issue with Moses, but I can't remember any dealings with moses at all. So I stayed out of the "where are my mags" debacle Not sure why it irritates this phuquenyutte so, but she has been trolling me for some time, demanding I make some official declaration on the Moses thing. - I figured others had covered it pretty well.
You stick your nose in every other thread like this. You are no better than the rest who protected him.
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Old September 17, 2017, 14:02   #627
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I support any person who steals 3% from PP by conducting business transactions as Family & Friends transactions. This may impugn my character, and, according to Mark Graham of Arizona Response Systems, means that I'll lie, cheat, and steal from people here *if* there is anything about you that I don't like - or possibly even disagree with.

You may not want to do business with me. In case you forget this, this warning will appear in any future advert in the Marketplace. Consider yourself duly warned.

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Old September 17, 2017, 14:14   #628
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Originally Posted by 2barearms View Post
You stick your nose in every other thread like this. You are no better than the rest who protected him.
My lack of contribution to a thread that I had no knowledge of at the time, is hardly "protecting" any of the parties. It is nice that you value my contributions so greatly that my two cents will outweigh all of the other 600+ posts. What is it you wish for me to say. "Yeah, me too!"?

I came to this thread last week because of a discussion that Jen and I were having on 230 CDA ('96 Telecom Act), which she mentioned in post 616. You will note my post follows Jen's as number 617.

In reading that (while talking to her), I noticed Mebs' comment on drop free, and "stuck my nose into it" with a technical analysis of why the term does not apply to cam lock weapon systems. Yes, tangential to the issue, but I thought it had merit.

I then read DSA's claim that they received their old order of Moses mags and they were unfinished and DSA "completed" them. Which brought up the question, in mind,

1) what exactly required "completion" (I wonder if they were modified to fit in DSA's defective mag wells).
2) should there be a problem, who is responsible (once modified, will they still function in correct mag wells).

So I voiced my curiosity on that tangential issue as well.

But ok, I'll make my comment as to the merits of the discussion, which due to my preeminence in the field, will make all other 600+ comments pale in comparison.

Taking money and not delivering product? That's bad . . . m'kay?

So now, are you satisfied that I have made the necessary contribution to give lie to your assertion that I'm somehow "protecting" Moses by lack of interest in the discussion? Will you now stop trolling me on the subject?
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Last edited by gunplumber; September 17, 2017 at 14:27.
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Old September 17, 2017, 15:02   #629
fuel fire desire
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Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post

I then read DSA's claim that they received their old order of Moses mags and they were unfinished and DSA "completed" them. Which brought up the question, in mind,

1) what exactly required "completion" (I wonder if they were modified to fit in DSA's defective mag wells).
2) should there be a problem, who is responsible (once modified, will they still function in correct mag wells).


I can add to this.


I bought about 8 of these a couple years ago, and not one worked with my DSA. Not only did they not lock (I was expecting to "trim to fit" with the product description), but the bolt would not go into battery on any of them. The left feed lip blocked the bolt from dropping into the locked position, and chewed up the lips of a couple while I was trying to figure out the issue.

Moses immediately responded to me (June of 2016), and told me that even though he hand fit and tested each mag in a jig and live rifle (forgot the origin), DSA receivers were no bueno and had this known issue with a small percentage. He walked me through the fix process, and followed up with me to make sure everything worked out.....he even shipped me a free mag for the trouble.

But no.....the way Moses described the finishing process to me, is that after the shells come off the mold, they each have to be individually trimmed in a jig. A jig not modeled after what DSA was/ is producing. So I could almost guarantee that DSA either had to rework each mag, or they asked to receive them as "blanks" so they could finish them on their own jig to make them work in DSA produced receivers.



Here's a link to the thread.....though.....Photobucket dumped all of the good pictures...


http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401844



FUN FACT: after the removal of material from the left feed lip, the mag will spit the top round out from the left side if you tap the back of the mag on your palm or bench to seat the rounds in the back of the mag. So if anyone buys some from DSA, load them to capacity and see if you get a round to jump out when tapping them.
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Old September 17, 2017, 15:21   #630
fireplug
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Originally Posted by fuel fire desire View Post
I can add to this.


I bought about 8 of these a couple years ago, and not one worked with my DSA. Not only did they not lock (I was expecting to "trim to fit" with the product description), but the bolt would not go into battery on any of them. The left feed lip blocked the bolt from dropping into the locked position, and chewed up the lips of a couple while I was trying to figure out the issue.

Moses immediately responded to me (June of 2016), and told me that even though he hand fit and tested each mag in a jig and live rifle (forgot the origin), DSA receivers were no bueno and had this known issue with a small percentage. He walked me through the fix process, and followed up with me to make sure everything worked out.....he even shipped me a free mag for the trouble.

But no.....the way Moses described the finishing process to me, is that after the shells come off the mold, they each have to be individually trimmed in a jig. A jig not modeled after what DSA was/ is producing. So I could almost guarantee that DSA either had to rework each mag, or they asked to receive them as "blanks" so they could finish them on their own jig to make them work in DSA produced receivers.



Here's a link to the thread.....though.....Photobucket dumped all of the good pictures...


http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=401844



FUN FACT: after the removal of material from the left feed lip, the mag will spit the top round out from the left side if you tap the back of the mag on your palm or bench to seat the rounds in the back of the mag. So if anyone buys some from DSA, load them to capacity and see if you get a round to jump out when tapping them.
Why would anyone in their right mind buy brand new magazines that you have too modify just too maybe,and mean maybe get them too function properly.
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Old September 17, 2017, 15:31   #631
fuel fire desire
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Originally Posted by fireplug View Post
Why would anyone in their right mind buy brand new magazines that you have too modify just too maybe,and mean maybe get them too function properly.
Because I own a DSA?


In seriousness, I distinctly remember something on his site or on here about having to slightly sand the rear locking lug to fit in some FAL's, since the mags were designed to fit more snug than steel versions, and were built on a jig to replicate a specific FAL (Imbel maybe?), and other models from other countries would have slightly different tolerances.

My specific rifle is a DSA, with a Slo-Cat extended release. Not exactly mil-spec. All it took was a pass or two of a medium file. Easy lock in.....and easy drop out with a slight bump or flick.

This isn't the first polymer mag design I've had to do this to, or even the first time a manufacturer stated it might be necessary. (CMMG AR .22 conversion mag was my latest one)
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Old September 17, 2017, 17:55   #632
1911Ron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuel fire desire View Post
Because I own a DSA?


In seriousness, I distinctly remember something on his site or on here about having to slightly sand the rear locking lug to fit in some FAL's, since the mags were designed to fit more snug than steel versions, and were built on a jig to replicate a specific FAL (Imbel maybe?), and other models from other countries would have slightly different tolerances.

My specific rifle is a DSA, with a Slo-Cat extended release. Not exactly mil-spec. All it took was a pass or two of a medium file. Easy lock in.....and easy drop out with a slight bump or flick.

This isn't the first polymer mag design I've had to do this to, or even the first time a manufacturer stated it might be necessary. (CMMG AR .22 conversion mag was my latest one)
He made the lugs slightly larger so as they would work in looser or worn mag catches/ receivers, a few swipes with a jewelers file to fit them in more tighter/ less worn receivers/ mag catches.

Funny thing is they fit my DS prefix DSA fine if a little tight but wont fit my Coonan receiver.
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