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Old April 23, 2019, 21:57   #51
gunplumber
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Originally Posted by brunop View Post
... if things "go to pot" with an expectation of:

a) return to normalcy in the near future, or

b) it's a regional failure and someone on the "outside" needs/wants that gold


If it is worldwide cataclysm (whatever that means to each individual...), then gold will be much less interesting than that other list of things, like:

food
water
shelter
firearms & ammo
seeds
fertilizer
fencing
antibiotics
generator
ice
etc.


So if we're talking about preserving wealth from place to place or from generation to generation, gold is good. If we're talking about survival, not so much. JMHO
During the Berlin Blockade, the most precious commodity was cooking oil. Cooking oil allowed one to prepare food with less of the antique furniture broken up for fuel. And people would trade their diamonds to the soldiers to have some of it.

I will not invest in precious metals. It's worthless to me. As some have mentioned, it is of value only in a localized crisis to those outside the crisis area. And they will rape you, if you can even access their supply chain.

Inside the crisis area, it is only food/water (and the means to prepare it), shelter (warm/dry), and security.

I have a skill. I can fix guns and I can suture wounds. I can't fix a small engine.

I'd run the scenario, "you wake up naked, face down in a ditch - what are you going to do?"

All the resources you have accumulated are good, but the only one that can't be taken from you is what you hold in your mind. Learn a low-technology skill. And be able to do it blindfolded. That has value, even if you show up naked and covered with mud.

Being a shooter? Sorry. I was a shooter once. Shooters are a dime a dozen. They are expendable. Logistics. Medical. Woodworking. Leather working. Small engine repair. Animal husbandry. Even a skilled arbitrator. Those have value in a power-down scenario. Being an expert website developer? Not so much.
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Old April 23, 2019, 23:29   #52
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Yes and no. If you can afford it, why not. Only a hedge. Land and all that is more valuable in the long run as far as hard assets and you don't live in billyville. I cant afford either.
I own three pieces of land according to deeds. If miss paying property taxes on any then Uncle Sugar takes it. We own nothing, just the right to rent from the government whether e have a mortgage to go it it or not. All mine is "paid for" with no banks holding the notes but every November have to hand Uncle same $7,000 on my half of the farm, $2,000 on house and $2,300 on business not counting business kicence, occupancy permit, etc. BasI call $12,000 per year to keep property I have paid for by terms of sale.

I sold 95% of my gold and silver when peaked a few years go and won't ever restock. Actually put back a gallon of grapeseed old last week found on sale. Its way expensive and has one of the highest working temperatures before burns. Goes a long way. Food, medicine, ammo first for durable goods and being able to fix things from rebuilding a motorcycle engine to fixing an AR 15 and keeping generators running along with water pumps are a few skills more important than box of gold.
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Old April 23, 2019, 23:43   #53
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What will those who crash the economy put their money into? Say a billionaire like Bezos, where is his money if it all crashes? Where will your bankers wealth be in a crash? Can you even be sure the crash will happen?
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Old April 24, 2019, 00:21   #54
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As always it will be in Swiss vaults if society survives or rebuilds. As for folks like us who just need to live through an event and do not have a private island stocked for a decade or mores survival then the basics combined with a few skills and some field craft will be all we can leverage. Show up at my house to trade gold for ammo and might get the led so we can melt the gold into bullets.
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Old April 24, 2019, 01:48   #55
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.

I will not invest in precious metals. It's worthless to me. As some have mentioned, it is of value only in a localized crisis to those outside the crisis area. And they will rape you, if you can even access their supply chain..
Literally all of written history disproves your opinion.
(Pm's have value since before mankind discovered writing.)


I own some cows. I pressure can, and have 3,000 rattled reusable lids.
But unlike my rabbits etc I will have issues preserving it all.

SOo, when I need 100-200lbs of beef I'll be looking for things to trade it for.

Where I will help set up "bardertown" will be quite the walk. I don't want to have to walk up and down hills with shoes in 13 sizes, clothes in 10 sizes, 37" spices, etc when I can toss some silver and or gold in my pocket.
(Lighter than ammo too.)

Hacksilver etc... Long used.

It IS used in my area, and I have it in enough denominations to see it into useage.... I'll accept it.

Metals are FAR BETTER THAN Barter, for reasons long established (listed some above)
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Old April 24, 2019, 05:18   #56
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What will those who crash the economy put their money into? Say a billionaire like Bezos, where is his money if it all crashes? Where will your bankers wealth be in a crash? Can you even be sure the crash will happen?
I thought they were buying fortresses in New Zealand and other safe havens away from the riff-raff when the world comes crashing.
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Old April 24, 2019, 05:34   #57
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Can't you stack dimes up in a 12 gauge smoke pole as payload?
I think that only works if you’re in the proximity of a saloon around high noon.
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Old April 24, 2019, 07:06   #58
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
Literally all of written history disproves your opinion.(Pm's have value since before mankind discovered writing.)
To whom? When and where?

Quote:
Metals are FAR BETTER THAN Barter
Sure, I'll take your Maple leaf, here's a can of beans. No, you don't get change.

Money is just a tangible representation of a period of labor. Doesn't matter what the medium of exchange is - all that matters is that the parties believe it can be converted back to someone else's labor.

Paper script has been the primary world exchange for the last hundred years and is inherently worthless. All that gives it value is a trust in exchange. People have no idea anymore about assaying gold and silver. It's not been commonly used in exchange for generations - nobody you'd be dealing with has any idea as to what it's value should be. It may as well be arcade tokens.

That some people can tell a walking liberty from a fake Chinese walking liberty (with an electronic scale), doesn't make it useful when one is cold, hungry and frightened. Now a weapon, beans and blanket - that has value. Aspirin? Motrin? Heck Yeah!

Maybe when the crisis is over and rebuilding is occurring, there will be interest in establishing a monetary system. But until that time, it's tangible needs. For most people. I still remember people looting electronics when the power was out.
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Old April 24, 2019, 08:42   #59
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Good friends, compatriots, decent people all working together in any crisis, for a common cause, in any situation far better than PM's in most cases.

Takes a lot of people to live in a primitive dangerous society, reason folks have always banded together.

Real problem today, if or when something bad occurs, most folks today have no idea how to work together in this me, me, me world.
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Old April 24, 2019, 09:59   #60
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Silver and Gold for a can of beans? Hmmm.... Beans are way down my list of preferred food during a crisis ...

My supermarket ...

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Old April 24, 2019, 10:03   #61
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What is hilarious is that some here think that those who have silver and gold don't also have stores of food, water, ammo and firearms as well. I seriously doubt that during a crisis any of us will be looking to trade silver and gold for a can of beans (especially since we already have buckets full of beans, rice, lentils, wheat, flour, sugar, pasta, etc.).



I also think of my storage, precious metals, ammo, firearms, ec. as part of what will supplement my retirement. As me and the wife age we will draw on our storage and live of our investments and social security (since we have no debt ... don't believe in it).
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Old April 24, 2019, 10:29   #62
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What is hilarious is that some here think that those who have silver and gold don't also have stores of food, water, ammo and firearms as well.
Strawman much?

If you don't need a can of beans, then you don't need a means of paying for it. If you do need a can of beans, then your mechanism of exchange needs to be something the person you are buying from, trusts that he can exchange or use. I submit that we are three generations from the average Joe even considering precious metals as a means of exchange. It's not commonly understood. People don't have the knowledge of what's what, what comparative values are, or how to test for authenticity. 10 rds of .22LR, they understand.
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Old April 24, 2019, 10:57   #63
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To whom? When and where?

ummmm.... Do you REALLY need a basic history lesson?

Sure, I'll take your Maple leaf, here's a can of beans. No, you don't get change.

Thank you for proving that even the most ardent PM's denialist really wants them!!!

You JUST SAID you'd take my maple leaf after loudly claiming:
Quote:
It's worthless to me
I rest my case.


The fact that you assume no one will have a hatchet, (look up pieces of eight) and you will have a monopoly on beans vs competition (me selling pounds of meat for silver for example) just shows that your ignorant of basic economics.



Money is just a tangible representation of a period of labor.
yep
Doesn't matter what the medium of exchange is - all that matters is that the parties believe it can be converted back to someone else's labor.
and as I said, PM's have been used for OVER 9,000 years.
Seriously doubt that's going to can be in the next 90.
As you just proved for us!


Paper script has been the primary world exchange for the last hundred years and is inherently worthless.
far further back than that actually, came about just after 'Tally sticks' fell out of use. (Those are really interesting to read about)

All that gives it value is a trust in exchange. People have no idea anymore about assaying gold and silver.
per FERFAL and other who have actually lived through.... People learn quickly (not me saying it, check with him.)

It's not been commonly used in exchange for generations - nobody you'd be dealing with has any idea as to what it's value should be. It may as well be arcade tokens.
the value of EVERYTHING fluctuates.
When you have a full tank of gas you may drive by one gas station to get to another to save $0.03/gal.
When your in the middle of no where you'll gladly pay $0.50 more.

I'm hungry, I might pay $10 for a hamburger.
If I'd just eaten a large steak I wouldn't pay $1.

(Again) basic economics

That some people can tell a walking liberty from a fake Chinese walking liberty (with an electronic scale), doesn't make it useful when one is cold, hungry and frightened. Now a weapon, beans and blanket - that has value. Aspirin? Motrin? Heck Yeah!I
Your weapons, beans, and blankets are valueless to me. I have plenty. Aspirin and Motrin are literally worthless as I am a long term narcotics patient. I have pallets of ammo and too many guns.
But a coin I can slip into my pocket, won't have to worry about rust, secure storage, transport (ever try to carry 3 rifles through the woods)can easily divide (again, look up Hacksilver. ANd while I have bought AR's and disassembled them to sell as parts.... Not as easy, or as clean.

Etc.


Maybe when the crisis is over and rebuilding is occurring,
Nope, you've already shown ANYTIME and disprove your own argument. Just that the exact value is in question.
And if you have a monopoly... Denominations don't matter do they?


there will be interest in establishing a monetary system. But until that time, it's tangible needs. For most people. I still remember people looting electronics when the power was out.
Anyone who has ever tried to work a 3 way trade at a Gunshow understands the value of currency (or walked around Tulsa all day with a bag of pistols and a rifle or 2)

There's a REASON (Several actually) For that 9,000+ years of history.
And again, protest all you want, you've already disprove your own claims and... 9,000 vs the next 90.

Also: having food, ammo, and PM's is NOT a straw man arguement.
Because as I already said (and you very carefully failed to address)
It's guys like me and Black Blade who will help make PM's (rapidly) acceptable.
BECAUSE WE WILL TAKE THEM IN EXCHANGE.

Part of the reason you bought all those parts kits from Enterprise was that you knew newn people like here in the Files existed where you could dispose of them.
Same thing. I will accept PM's in exchange for my beef, honey, fruit from my orchard etc because I want to be able to easily exchange.

So the butcher will accept it because he knows I'll take it for my rabbits etc.

Thus endith the basic economics lesson.
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Old April 24, 2019, 12:20   #64
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I thought they were buying fortresses in New Zealand and other safe havens away from the riff-raff when the world comes crashing.
That has been said that the rich are building bunkers in a lot of different areas. Apparently those that build are seeing a much different world in a crash than a man just looking to trade, buy and sell in the times. They are going to be like banks if all they do is build bunkers, it would be better to build a self sufficient farm that you could defend but if they have reasoned only a bunker will get them through a crash then they have a reason.

Somebody tell me what a crash will look like, how it starts and what life will be like?
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Old April 24, 2019, 12:29   #65
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Greece was going through a crash a few years ago. Banks not allowing withdrawals, etc.

Venezuala has been going through a crash for several months now. I know the US media makes little mention of what is going on, but there are other places where you can find the information if you look.
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Old April 24, 2019, 12:37   #66
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Greece was going through a crash a few years ago. Banks not allowing withdrawals, etc.

Venezuala has been going through a crash for several months now. I know the US media makes little mention of what is going on, but there are other places where you can find the information if you look.
Thankyou, don't forget South Africa has gone through a money crash too. Yet this is America so what will it look like here? We are a huge country with 320 million guns, people will kill rather than starve like they do in Venezuela. If inflation gets to the point that money is worthless then those that created the problem won't be living in America

Is that what we are talking about in a crash, money being inflated so it becomes worthless?
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Old April 24, 2019, 12:47   #67
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Not necessarily.

The dollar could be replaced with the yen as the "world currency" and be worth less.

Similar to how Canadian and British money is worth slightly less than the dollar if ordering from out of country.

Then again, it could become totally worthless altogether.

Countless countries have went through that before.

Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasion_money

Mexico did it several years ago. https://www.google.com/search?q=when...rchBox&ie=&oe=
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Old April 24, 2019, 12:53   #68
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You obviously can't follow a simple train of logic - you're too emotionally invested in creating just the right fantasy scenario to justify your "prepping." And no, my assertions are just as valid as they were for Y2K. I have not "disproved my own point."

The point I'm trying to make by "here's a can of beans for your maple leaf - no you don't get change" is that the 1 oz coin (at least to the one with it) represents $1366 today. A can of beans today is under $1. The perceived value is very difficult to divide. So even if the can of beans is worth more than $1 due to scarcity, the coin cannot be divided without destroying what it is. Even a 1/4 oz is $350 +/-. I am not saying that I want your coin. I'm role-playing the other person in a scenario where you haven't eaten in a week, I have a can of beans, and you have a 1oz gold maple leaf.

Silver trade pieces right now are around $16. So within the context of your fantasy that people struggling to survive are going to be clamoring for your shiny trinkets, they better be in small enough increments that you can actually buy something with them.

Sure - coins have been used for thousands of years. But under what context? The context is they can be converted to something else. This requires a higher level of functionality then I envision immediately post-collapse.

That functionality requires an education level that we don't currently have, and won't get better with societal collapse and power-down. Hacksilver? At least your getting my point on division. But how many people even know what it is, let alone be able to distinguish it from hacknickel? Or even tin? Or know that a magnet test is a good start?

But even if someone does understand metals and has the ability to test it, it remains inherently worthless. Sure gold is great for plating for conductivity and corrosion resistance, or fillings, but what does it mean to a guy in a broken down car with a family shivering, who hasn't eaten in week? He'd much rather have a can of beans than your grandmother's diamond wedding ring. In fact, he'd probably give you his grandmother's diamond wedding ring, if you'd take it in trade.

Shiny trinkets are of value to those outside the crisis area, not to those inside. The wider the crisis area, the more people with shiny trinkets who want beans, and therefore the more valuable the beans are in relation.

A perfect example is the Berlin Blockade. People were literally busting up their furniture to burn for fuel and trading family heirlooms for cooking oil - to black marketers outside the crisis zone. Now enlarge that crisis area from a portion of Berlin to a thousand miles in every direction.

Until people's survival needs are addressed - I believe only those things that one can eat, protect themselves with, or shelter them from the elements, will be of any interest.
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Old April 24, 2019, 13:29   #69
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Not necessarily.

The dollar could be replaced with the yen as the "world currency" and be worth less.

Similar to how Canadian and British money is worth slightly less than the dollar if ordering from out of country.

Then again, it could become totally worthless altogether.

Countless countries have went through that before.

Japan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_invasion_money

Mexico did it several years ago. https://www.google.com/search?q=when...rchBox&ie=&oe=
Just a point of view here but inflation has nearly destroyed the American dream. My house as an example was built in 1978 for $28,000 and today it would sell for $250,000 if I sold it. Wages went from $5.25 an hour to $19.80. A new pickup went from $5,000 to $25,000. What that did to people who lived through it is nothing compared to those that have to pay for it now. Can you even stay even if you start out today?

My point is we have been going through an inflated crash for some years called managed decline. Creeping slow like a cancer that eats your prosperity. So what did Pms do in the last 50 years?
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Old April 24, 2019, 13:36   #70
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On a less than total collapse scenario-

My Dad ( God rest his soul ) was born in Ripley Oklahoma in 1922.

Beginning the winter of 1929, he did not have to chop stove wood for many months, as people walking from the Northeast to the West Coast were hungry and willing to work for a sandwich and an overnight space in the cow barn.

Monetary systems were not argued about at that particular time and location.



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Old April 24, 2019, 14:44   #71
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You can keep your can of beans and I will use my gold and silver to buy more land (like I did already in Wyoming). I doubt that any crisis beyond another Great Depression will occur (although maybe an asteroid impact or nuclear war?). I used silver and gold bullion I bought over time and bought a nice cabin and 12 acres of land surrounded on three side by government land. Bought silver and gold at low prices (near or below the cost of production like now). When the housing bubble popped (and the subprime bubble collapsed) is when I bought real estate (including a couple condos as rental properties). During that time while everything went into the toilet and prices crashed gold rocketed from $255/oz to $1,900/oz. I simply traded for great rural real estate and properties for passive income.

During the Great Depression Gold was king even though it was illegal for peasants to own, even though my granddad ignored the law and kept a few $5, $10 and $20 gold pieces which eventually became legal "numismatic" coins (what they didn't know wouldn't hurt them). Gold proxies like Homestake Mining stock provided dividends that far surpassed the cost basis of the shares at that time and provided income for many who prepped.

The point is prepping for all likely crisis events is the best we can do and the basics like food, water, etc. are part of the equation so are ammo and firearms as well as financial preps like silver and gold. I would also put emphasis on getting out of debt, staying out of debt and buying rural real estate.
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Old April 24, 2019, 14:51   #72
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You can keep your can of beans and I will use my gold and silver to buy more land
And how will you record your deed? You think the county recorder is going to show up to work after societal collapse?

Perhaps we are hugely divergent in what we are prepping for. I'm thinking EMP. NO ELECTRIC GRID ANYWHERE. Apparently, you and others are looking at a minor regional inconvenience like Katrina.

And yeah, debt free is good. And I consider my expensive dental work to be part of my prepping. Would kindof suck to have months of food and water and die from a tooth abscess.
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Old April 24, 2019, 15:15   #73
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Let me put it in another perspective. In Los Angeles there is over 100,000 people living on the streets and in Sanfransico there are 50,000 homeless. All living and sitting on our streets. Greatest country in the world yet because our politicions used managed decline it's turned areas into third world.

Now Trump gets in and screws up that plan by bringing jobs back and giving people work. So the deep state fights back by bringing in millions of third world people to flood the country and destroy our services. They don't need to crash the economy by inflation, they were crashing it by jobs lost.

So what next? If the goal is managed decline then what will they do next? Will they tax folks into poverty with a new healthcare tax? Run the jobs out of the country with a new "green deal". Where will pms fit in a falling economy? Can you pay your taxes with them?
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Old April 24, 2019, 17:37   #74
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After studying this a few years back and starting a similar thread, I pretty much came to the conclusion that the price of gold follows inflation. But the troughs and spread make it far from an "investment". Investing is return on your assets above the inflation rate. If I had $50K that needed to be quasi liquid, wouldn't lose value as more money is printed, sure if the spread is very very close to spot on each end of the transaction. But the gold market is just as manipulated these days as any other.

Never studied the segment values of consumption. I did work at a place where they had to use palladium and other PMs. Parts were rebuilt or recast due to erosion, cleaning operations had fine screens to catch the dust. The depletion was tracked. I remember that it was about 10-15% spread over several glass plants across the US. If a large percentage of gold goes into jewelry, hard times aren't going to help with creating scarcity.
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Old April 24, 2019, 22:32   #75
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After a complete grid down situation, EMP, BFR falling from the sky, anything on a national basis, having a lot of holdings of anything, be it ground/dirt/land/beans/bullets/etc; general supplies, all are dependent, on what anyone can hold onto from all others determined to take it away from you.

"Stuff" is good, having enough decent people with you to hold onto all that "stuff", is simply priceless.
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Old April 24, 2019, 23:29   #76
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You can keep your can of beans and I will use my gold and silver to buy more land (like I did already in Wyoming). I doubt that any crisis beyond another Great Depression will occur (although maybe an asteroid impact or nuclear war?). I used silver and gold bullion I bought over time and bought a nice cabin and 12 acres of land surrounded on three side by government land. Bought silver and gold at low prices (near or below the cost of production like now). When the housing bubble popped (and the subprime bubble collapsed) is when I bought real estate (including a couple condos as rental properties). During that time while everything went into the toilet and prices crashed gold rocketed from $255/oz to $1,900/oz. I simply traded for great rural real estate and properties for passive income.

During the Great Depression Gold was king even though it was illegal for peasants to own, even though my granddad ignored the law and kept a few $5, $10 and $20 gold pieces which eventually became legal "numismatic" coins (what they didn't know wouldn't hurt them). Gold proxies like Homestake Mining stock provided dividends that far surpassed the cost basis of the shares at that time and provided income for many who prepped.

The point is prepping for all likely crisis events is the best we can do and the basics like food, water, etc. are part of the equation so are ammo and firearms as well as financial preps like silver and gold. I would also put emphasis on getting out of debt, staying out of debt and buying rural real estate.
I don't know what will happen but we seem to get test about the world that gives you an idea what might happen. Take Venezuela as an example, run away inflation that makes money near worthless, then food shortages. You have piles of food so I guess you won't ever have to buy any. Piles of everything in reality but will those piles be move able if you need to move? It would be a shame to be forced out of your home for tax payments and have no ability to move your preps.

In the great depression people lost everything to the banks but this one folks may lose their paid for house to the tax man. Will the government take pms for taxes? You may think all is well with money in the bank but if it's not in your hands you really don't have it. My taxes are $2,800 a year and if inflation goes wild I won't have any money to pay the taxes even though I have saved a bit. They could take my house for not paying my taxes, put it up for sale and throw me out.
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Old April 25, 2019, 10:17   #77
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So if government does a Venezuela inflation rate on America, what would a gallon of gasoline cost you? They say they owe 22 trillion, far more than the debt of Venezuela and Venezuela had a million % inflation rate. If your gas tank held 18 gallons at $3 a gallon, well better use a credit card when it goes a million percent inflation.

So what would the taxes be on your house?
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Old April 26, 2019, 06:06   #78
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One of my hobbies is metal detecting. Okay at it, nothing to brag about. I subscribe to GARRETT METAL DETECTORS monthly magazine. Very popular around the world.

Every month the magazine prints stories of the finds from around the world. It is interesting how often buried coins, jewelry and artifacts of significance are found hidden by the previous owners only for them to fail to return and retrieve their precious belongings.

Doesn't mean you can't try, there is always a first time for someone to hang on to wealth when other people are actively seeking to take it away, taxman, politicians, highway robbers...etc......

Me, I take my advice from Hank Williams Jr., country boy can survive and GP, Yellowhand and many more.....

Recommended reading = One Second After, One Year After and Final Day by William R. Forstchen for some interesting lite reading.
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Old April 26, 2019, 21:55   #79
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You obviously can't follow a simple train of logic - you're too emotionally invested in creating just the right fantasy scenario to justify your "prepping."
.

(You'd be surprised at what you might learn if you actually LISTENED to people who don't automatically agree with your opinion vs your patiented response of personal insults instead!)

LMFAO... DUDE.... YOU are the one who's all worried about EMP.
"power down scinarios" and talking about tanning hides.

I tan hides AS A HOBBY, not because I worry about having clothes (although.... Alpha stratigy. More on that later.)

I just got on here after starting a fire in my wood cook/heating stove that provides most of my heat.
it'll get down into the 40's tonight and I'm going to cook dinner on it (probably bacon sandwiches. I recently bought 22lbs for $1.50/ per.)
Yes, bought. I've raised pigs and made bacon and I've found it more economical to buy them at auction and then butcher. (Last time I got 48lbs of meat and some lbs of lard for $2. Bought on a Saturday, butchered on Sunday.)

I'm not "prepping", I'm LIVING. Just like people have for thousands of years.

Yes, I have Food "put back"
I have 500-700 jars on the shelves behind my chair. Most sealed with tattler reusable lids. (I have 3,000, bought 3/$1 when they were moving.)

Pears I picked from my friends trees, (and pear and Apple sauce and juces)
Peaches I bought (my peach trees aren't producing)
-side note: peaches produce 90% true to type. I toss my peach pits into One of my raised beds (I have 1,400 sqft) and each year I add a few more peach trees. Free except for the transplanting.

I'm not 'prepping', this is my LIFE!

I was out in the garden earlier checking my beans, lettuces, tomaties, sunflowers etc. I got a late start and am 10-14 days away from harvesting lettuce.

Started gardening because I was going to town 3x/month and bought lettuce would rot by the time I was ready to go to town.

I get my milk from my Fire Chief (I'm on the Vol FD)
Eggs from a buddy. (I'm not into livestock that requires daily effort. I've had pigs, chickens, all kinds of things. I like to learn.
Currently rabbits, (they were $1-2 last year after easter) because I get free feed scavenged 'spills' from a commercial poultry operation, bees, the cows, and 4 years ago I put 700 fish into the pond.

I like and am interested in sustainability, I have a degree in Emergency Management, was Combat arms in the Marines (Iraq, etc) EMT, FF, Insurance Adjuster, Emergency Mgmt consultant,.... I have been through many disasters (most of them in a paid capacity)

As such I am not unaware of the possibility/probability of disruptions in social order.
But I live how I live BECAUSE I WANT TO, not from fear.

I LIKE watching Supernatural and typing this next to my wood stove. (This summer in installing the water jacket and plumbing it into my water system (on a separate solar setup from the rest of my house.)
I expect next winter to be able to turn off my propane entirely.

(Did I mention my house is offgrid?) I've lived like it for going on 4 years now, with several stints earlier of up to 6 months in my solar equipped Airstream (used it while working disasters for office and living quarters.)

I got my property cheap due to how "far out" it was, and the savings more than paid for my (minimal) system.

I grew up berry picking with my mother, and fresh fruit is SOOO MUCH BETTER than that crap in the stores.
Also, everything I do must either "make money" (through savings) or break even.

I have well over 3 dozen immature fruit trees (figs started producing last year) and my savings from JUST my perennial onions and garlic (I'm from Southern La, use lots of those and Bell Peppers in Cajun cooking) has paid for them and building my raised beds.

Yes, should "bad things happen" the sustainable perennial foods will pay off.
But they pay off NOW (in the future in the instance of my 8 immature Apple trees etc.)



And no, my assertions are just as valid as they were for Y2K. I have not "disproved my own point."

The point I'm trying to make by "here's a can of beans for your maple leaf - no you don't get change" is that the 1 oz coin (at least to the one with it) represents $1366 today. A can of beans today is under $1. The perceived value is very difficult to divide.
Already covered: historically Pm's have been used BECAUSE they are easily divided (and do not rust etc)



So even if the can of beans is worth more than $1 due to scarcity, the coin cannot be divided without destroying what it is.
Just like "when you've been to one VA you be been to one Va"
" When you've seen a diamond you've seen one diamond. "

Whereas a gram of gold is a gram of gold.

You'll now talk about how chopping it up destroys the coin etc..... Your not arguing with me, your arguing against historical fact.
(Good luck)



Even a 1/4 oz is $350 +/-. I am not saying that I want your coin. I'm role-playing the other person in a scenario where you haven't eaten in a week, I have a can of beans, and you have a 1oz gold maple leaf.
You may (and will I'm sure make up any scenario you want to TRY to prove your point.)
But here in the REAL WORLD I have 1, 1/2, 1/3, and 1/10 oz gold coins
And 10 oz bars, 1 oz bars and rounds, 90% halves, quarters, and fines (a few nickles) as well as 40%.

Just like I don't need your beans, I have other options other than a knife or hatchet for "change"

Again: your saying that the historical solutions are insurmountable.
History says you are wrong.

Ever tried to carry $1,000 worth of beans to trade?


Silver trade pieces right now are around $16. So within the context of your fantasy
What fantasy? I'm merely referencing historical fact (have even provided links) and your saying that what people did thrusting do.

that people struggling to survive are going to be clamoring for your shiny trinkets, they better be in small enough increments that you can actually buy something with them.
(see above) they are.
Amusingly, (just like black blade I bought PM's (Gold $330 and silver at $6) because I intended to use it on property. I have the cash, thought it would go up, and figured I might as well diversify from my cash and stock market investments. (Just ended up not needing it)


Sure - coins have been used for thousands of years. But under what context? The context is they can be converted to something else. This requires a higher level of functionality then I envision immediately post-collapse.
ah, yes.
Quote:
you're too emotionally invested in creating just the right fantasy scenario to justify your "prepping."
Again (as I have already explained):
I will ACCEPT PM'S for my "stuff"....
Ergo your "fantasy scinario" of what "You envision" is WRONG.

And again: in the REAL world vs your:
Quote:
just the right fantasy scenario to justify your "prepping.
(FERFAL and others real world experiences and observations) (history) dispute your 'pet scinarios'



That functionality requires an education level that we don't currently have, and won't get better with societal collapse and power-down.
Again with the arguing with history and "Pet scinarios"


Hacksilver? At least your getting my point on division.
Your point? NO, that was known to me long before I even got on the files back 2001ish.
Also: see ",various denominations.... History again.


But how many people even know what it is, let alone be able to distinguish it from hacknickel? Or even tin? Or know that a magnet test is a good start?
asked And answered.


But even if someone does understand metals and has the ability to test it, it remains inherently worthless.
again: you vs 9,000+ years of history.
Good luck with that


Sure gold is great for plating for conductivity and corrosion resistance, or fillings, but what does it mean to a guy in a broken down car with a family shivering, who hasn't eaten in week? He'd much rather have a can of beans than your grandmother's diamond wedding ring. In fact, he'd probably give you his grandmother's diamond wedding ring, if you'd take it in trade.
What about the guy needing dental work (I don't mean fillings.... I mean too much pain to eat.)

What good is a gal of gas to the hungry guy?

Or winter clothing in the summer

Or steak when you want fish.

Etc

They economy is based on more than immediate needs or just any one item.



Shiny trinkets are of value to those outside the crisis area, not to those inside. INcorrect. The wider the crisis area, the more people with shiny trinkets who want beans, and therefore the more valuable the beans are in relation. Good, I'll get enough "shiney" to buy LOTS of farmland property for my beef, beans, and fruit, in addition to not having to carry around lots of heavy things to trade.

A perfect example is the Berlin Blockade. People were literally busting up their furniture to burn for fuel and trading family heirlooms for cooking oil - to black marketers outside the crisis zone. Now enlarge that crisis area from a portion of Berlin to a thousand miles in every direction.
I Don't live in the city. I have enough trees I'll never need to cut up my furniture . and also coppicing to make it easier..... whether in using my baby chain saw or a hand saw.
Because I heat with wood not if TEOTWAWKI, but right NOW!


Until people's survival needs are addressed - I believe only those things that one can eat, protect themselves with, or shelter them from the elements, will be of any interest.

(Already proven wrong)
To you perhaps, but some of us think ahead.

I recently took a trip to the Gulf coast.
I brought back Shrimp and other seafood that I froze (chest freezer solar powered) and shrimp heads that I boiled (on my wood stove) down to stock that I canned.... Because you know.... Some of us can plan ahead.

Just like when I started investing in retirement accounts at the age of 15.

Which brings me to the Alpha Strategy:
I don't have ingots of copper (although I have a pile of copper pipe I salvaged and will be using to plumb my water jacket soon)
But (as an example) I am wearing Danner boots (after 3 foot surgeries I can't wear cheap shoes) that I paid about 1/3 new costs (factory seconds, wrong color thread for the stitching IIRC.)
I bought "several pairs"

My "boot investment" has surpassed my stock market returns.
Just one example

My interest in sustainability allows me to eat better food (walking out to the garden with a salad bowl in one hand and scissors in the other makes SSSSUUUCH a better salad than even high priced restaurants or farmers markets.)
There are peas that start having chemical changes 10 min after being harvested.

It saves me money.

And yes, allows for "Good security"

I have nothing against Mountain house, got some upstairs from when I was concerned with "prepping"
But I'd MUCH RATHER have my taco soup. I don't grow the corn, (just like I'll buy some things if cost to effort makes sense) but I did the beans, the onions, the garlic, the tomatoes, butchered the meat etc.

And I eat a pint about 1x/week. I call it MY 'Fast food'.
(Make about 3 dozen jars at a time. for those interested a 20lb propane bottle (before I got my 500 gal tank) on a Coleman camp stove (before I got my pair of non electric propane stoves) will pressure can over 140 jars of meat. (I saw a page from a 1920's era blue book that listed by food type that you could eat for a year on ~440 quarts.)


So you enjoy your "prepping for EMP, or no electricity, or whatever...."
I'll keep eating food, Staying warm, cooking dinner etc.
Living life like people have throught the ages, while taking advantage of modern devices like Washing machines (although I do not have a dryer), solar pumps, internet, freezers etc. (Is say AC, but haven't needed it in 3 years.)

And yes, I have less than 10% of my net worth in PM's (bought much cheaper) and while I don't think it's an investment.... History days it's a good hedge, and people's lives have been saved by having 1-2oz of gold + some silver to pay their property taxes (at a minimum. Won't be critical if anyone wants to stop there.)I

No doubt you will not really reapond, but will cop an attitude and insult vs really responding.... But others might benefit from this.

Excuse me, I have a cast iron pan on the stove all warned up and in need of bacon.
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Old April 26, 2019, 22:09   #80
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That you live like Jeremiah Johnson, doesn't change reality,. Dude - seriously. The fact that you have to extol your primitive living "virtues" establishes that it ain't the norm. So nobody gives a fcuk about how you might milk a cow. You're the 1/1000th percentile. The rest can't divide by 8 - so they ain't gonna value pieces thereof. They want what will keep them fed, warm, and safe. And your shiny wampum ain't it. A can of beans, they understand. A blanket, they understand. A hatchet - yeah, that too. A walking liberty half dollar versus a standing liberty quarter? What the fcuk use is that in feeding my kid?

Seriously - I think your primitive lifestyle is REALLY COOL! I do!. But to take your microcosm and apply it to society as a whole is just fcuking retarded.
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Old April 26, 2019, 22:14   #81
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your shiny wampum ain't it. A can of beans, they understand.
Regardless of the context above, that chit right there is signature line material
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Old April 26, 2019, 23:37   #82
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Maybe a better look would be like this, in a third world most folks will be living on the streets like LA or San Francisco. Toilet paper doesn't seem to be a high trade item since everyone just shits in the street. If money crashes so will the next day food supplies and the restaurants will close. There is not enough food on the shelves to keep 330 million people alive for long.

If the dollar crashes then it would crash world wide, not just here. Other currencies would find a new balance against a new world currency I suspect and probably China will be the leader.

Just opinion now so don't get upset. If it all were to crash you can't really say what gold would be worth in dollars or what a can of beans will be worth in dollars. I don't think anyone can guess the value of things in that kind of a future. When the currency loses its value then you can't think in dollars at all, more likely you will think like street people and where the next meal will come from.

Your preps will own you, there is no way to leave them safe. The culture and community will change around you in an effort to start over. New values and principles probably. Who knows how the culture will react to a money crash.
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Old April 26, 2019, 23:56   #83
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What do you guys think about a crash? Will they do away with cash so they don't have to print up new money? Will it all go electronic money with a dollar based on a gallon oF gasoline?

Look at the other countries they crashed and how they changed the value of their money constantly, will it all go to a debit card system that controls your purchases? Will they demand you spend your money or will you empty the card right away because inflation will rule the day?

Will they use the smart meters on your house to control your usages? Will the debit card actually be your phone you have to carry by law?
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Old April 26, 2019, 23:57   #84
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That you live like Jeremiah Johnson, doesn't change reality,.
sometimes it gets boring being right all the time:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post

No doubt you will not really reapond, but will cop an attitude and insult vs really responding.... But others might benefit from this.
.





Dude - seriously. The fact that you have to extol your primitive living "virtues" establishes that it ain't the norm. So nobody gives a fcuk about how you might milk a cow.
Quote:
I get my milk from my Fire Chief
You're the 1/1000th percentile.
a minority: sure.

Fact remains that there's LOTS of people with resources that WILL TAKE PM's.

Silver IS traded around here, and whether its a little homestead operation like mine, someone who has a basement full of MH (as posted) or the farmers around here (you DO KNOW for example that ranchers sell 1\3 or more of their cows every year....right?

REgardless: through history.... People take PM's.
AGAIN:
I see no reason to support the claim that the next 90 years will be any different from the last 9,000.
Through wars, feast, famine, wars, plague etc.




The rest can't divide by 8 - so they ain't gonna value pieces thereof.
FERFAL And others say differently, from actual experience not your fictional scinarios.

They want what will keep them fed, warm, and safe. And your shiny wampum ain't it. A can of beans, they understand. A blanket, they understand. A hatchet - yeah, that too. A walking liberty half dollar versus a standing liberty quarter? What the fcuk use is that in feeding my kid?
carrying it over the mountain and handing it to me for a bushel of Apple's (or a quart of applejack!)


Seriously - I think your primitive lifestyle is REALLY COOL! I do!. But to take your microcosm and apply it to society as a whole is just fcuking retarded.
If you had actually paid ANY ATTENTION AT ALL your realize that I wasn't. I definitely talked about my lifestyle a bit more than I may of had to, but I enjoy it, and you accused ME of doing what YOU are doing.
I was pointing out (once again) how incorrect you are.

Farmers have more food (a few days a year) than they can store.
Coins are easier to keep than grain.
(And all the other stuff I've already said several times.)


I also think my "hybrid" (Definately NOT Jeremiah Johnson) lifestyle is pretty sweet. Memory foam mattress and a wood stove (love the smell, and wood heat makes my bones ache less.)
And I'm about to soak in my custom sized tub (2 HWH's).

Comfortable AND sustainable.

And while not many people live like me, about half of my neighbors have gardens.....
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Old April 27, 2019, 00:13   #85
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Maybe a better look would be like this, in a third world most folks will be living on the streets like LA or San Francisco. Toilet paper doesn't seem to be a high trade item since everyone just shits in the street. If money crashes so will the next day food supplies and the restaurants will close. There is not enough food on the shelves to keep 330 million people alive for long.

If the dollar crashes then it would crash world wide, not just here. Other currencies would find a new balance against a new world currency I suspect and probably China will be the leader.

Just opinion now so don't get upset. If it all were to crash you can't really say what gold would be worth in dollars or what a can of beans will be worth in dollars. I don't think anyone can guess the value of things in that kind of a future. When the currency loses its value then you can't think in dollars at all, more likely you will think like street people and where the next meal will come from.
pregnant and industrial revolution (the I.R. Made grains cheap..... Changing the economy.)
An unskilled days labor was a silver coin about the size of a Roosevelt dime. (For thousands of years.) Obviously skilled labor was worth more.
When there was inflation (base metals in the coins) the number of coins increased till..... The amount of silver about the size of a Roosevelt dime was an unskilled days labor.

Obviously need dictates the price people will pay (when I'm hungry I'll pay $10 for a burger I wouldn't give $1 for after I've had a nice steak.)

But as someone who likes thrift stores, pawn shops, hard sales, farm auctions, gun and coin shows etc.... It AMAZES ME how many in the USA have "Wal-Mart syndrome" (just pay sticker.)

As FERFAL and others have shared: needs must, people learn.
.




Your preps will own you, there is no way to leave them safe.
hidden.

But: when I lived in an Airstream full time for 3 years I found out if you don't have them your STILL owned.
By the necessity to constantly buy things.



The culture and community will change around you in an effort to start over. New values and principles probably. Who knows how the culture will react to a money crash.
Things change.

But I know that all spring and summer I'll not buy vegies and instead will walk outside for dinner.

for the next year I'll be eating beef that lived right here.

Whether there's food in Wallmart for GP (or you) to buy or not.


$0.02
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Old April 27, 2019, 09:34   #86
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Things change.

But I know that all spring and summer I'll not buy vegies and instead will walk outside for dinner.

for the next year I'll be eating beef that lived right here.

Whether there's food in Wallmart for GP (or you) to buy or not.


$0.02
Just opinion but if money fails and they crash the world then most will be walking or on bicycles. Gasoline will be too expensive to buy and the economy runs on fuel. Travel trailers will sit where they run out of gas and truck driving won't exist as fuel runs out. Who would sell fuel today for $50 a gallon when it would sell tomorrow for $100? At some point nobody will take cash, it will go to barter.

So tomorrow morning you wake up and you have a crowd of hungry folks eating up your veggies in your yard. Your hungry neighbors with their kids didn't grow their own but root through everyone's yard for food. They shit in your water supply and then the herd moves on rooting for food as they go. Killing all the game, catching all the fish and that's just part of the 330 million hungry people. The rooters.

The next bunch will be the killers. They ain't got any idea what to root for or how to get game so they will go house to house and farm to farm killing for what they need. They will watch and wait for a man to come outside to relieve himself or feed himself then snipe him from cover.

Next group will be the haters, they will hate the world they live in so bad that they will burn it down around themselves. Their religion will kill or convert and fire will be their tool. As they get bigger in size more folks join just for the killing.

Yet your government will offer a cure for the money crisis, a government debit card that will give you food if you follow the rules. It will be a phone so they can track you and listen to all you say. Without the phone you won't be able to buy or sell useing electronic currency and you will spend every dime you have every time you get any.

Often you have said you are ready for anything, good for you and I am happy for you that you enjoy living on the edge of doom. Living for the crash or being ready to bug out is all the same, it's living in fear. You build a bag to run with or create a lifestyle that gives you the confidence that you can go on when the rest of the world cant. You do with less and live a different standard like a peppers religion and you know something I can't be critical of that at all. Yep I know you don't give a shit what anyone thinks.
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Old April 27, 2019, 16:43   #87
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Honestly this is getting a bit loopy. Anything a person can trade in their situation for goods needed works. My belief is if we have a real SHTF world wide every man for himself situation 70% of the population is erased in 90 days. If I can pilfer homes of the dead and remove jewelry boxes, jewelry from bodies and crack their vaults for silver, gold and diamonds in any direction I want what is its value. I know some big time hoarders. I used to hoard silver and gold in bulk. Was not uncommon for me to bring two or three 100 ounce sliver chunks home in a week.

To me it's no different than stocks now, yes it will be the first acceptable forms of currency when need arises again but a world wide EMP, Yellowstone supercauldera pops or moderate asteroid strike and it will be a long time before gold and silver will trade for their weight in food or ammo. We still have metals and gems but more for collecting and pretty decoratioms. If I need eifher, can go put my boot to any one of a dozen doors wearing a SWAT entry suit and while holding shotgun to wife's head good hubby will go get all I could use and load in truck. Same with cash, there are folks who are known heavy traders of gold, hoarders of cash and not very adept at violence.

Have been installing panic rooms, vaults and hidden vaults for some times. Started with installing secure medical storage areas for temperature sensitive or high value medications. Had a doctor return from vacation to discover his $300 Lowe's refrigerator had gone bad and over $200,000 in research medicine had gone bad. Now he has a dual compressor commercial refrigerator with alarm that sends emails and text messages to him, office manager and me if temperature of cooler goes outside of defined parameters.

He referred me to a pain clinic who referred me to two more then they had me working in their homes. There is one man locally that has purchased two of the old Wachovia bank branches to store his metals. Where the real money is in medical Marijuana. If Georgia legalizes it already have two investors and we are going to provide pick up, storage and distribution of their cash. Since it can't be legally be put in federal banks as illegally made money according to DEA our plan is to buy a fleet of armored cars, hire drivers and guards to move their cash into a bank vault built locally just after WW2. It's nuclear bomb proof and owner has already heard the sirens call.

We pick up, store and make sure dispenseries have change orders delivered as needed and over burden moved to their area of the vault have rented on a percentage basis. Will never touch their product in any manner just move money to secure storage and make sure each location has small bills to make change. Average dispensary takes in $60,000 to $100,000 per day. We are figuring a 7.5% fee to move and 3% for long term storage of cash. Owner of vault will not be part of business but just charge rent. All armored cars would be leased, business an LLC in which even alarm systems would be leased and guards hired through an independent security agency. Clients would sign contracts saying if feds confiscated the cash it would not be on us but risk they take.

With Bitcoin, legalized Marijuana, gambling coast to coast our monetary system is going to see a big change soon. It is not uncommon for me to do business with companies that don't take cash so would they take silver or gold?
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Old April 27, 2019, 17:46   #88
Bawana jim
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What do you fid loopy huey?
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Old April 27, 2019, 19:24   #89
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I got me an old case of MRE's, they will divide into 12ths, easily too.
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Old April 28, 2019, 12:54   #90
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I'm going to really hate running out of bourbon whiskey. Lucky for me I like 'shine as well. Here is hoping there is extra grain or other stuff that needs to be converted to something that will store well over time. Like booze.
Booze and tobacco though not necessary for survival, will be in demand for sure, no matter what. A good stash might be useful for barter.
I still dont see any downside to having a diversified portfolio which includes pm's. Because there is a chance for it to be useful IMHO.

Quote:
One of my hobbies is metal detecting. Okay at it, nothing to brag about. I subscribe to GARRETT METAL DETECTORS monthly magazine. Very popular around the world.
Me too, just getting into it. I have a Garret AT Pro. Just put on a 5x8 DD coil and am loving it. I think something was wrong with the bigger coil that came with my detector and have been pulling coins with the smaller coil out of areas previously swept with the larger coil. Lots of them. Mostly clad and zinc but got some silver the other day, a 1941 quarter and a 16g sterling silver concho that fell of someone's belt I'm guessing.
Found my dog's lost city tag set with it out in the backyard.
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Old April 28, 2019, 12:58   #91
Bawana jim
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Ya I would rather have $1300 in booze rather than gold. I could trade booze for farm fresh eggs pretty easy.
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Old April 29, 2019, 19:10   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bawana jim View Post
Just opinion but if money fails and they crash the world then most will be walking or on bicycles. Gasoline will be too expensive to buy and the economy runs on fuel. Travel trailers will sit where they run out of gas and truck driving won't exist as fuel runs out. Who would sell fuel today for $50 a gallon when it would sell tomorrow for $100? At some point nobody will take cash, it will go to barter.

So tomorrow morning you wake up and you have a crowd of hungry folks eating up your veggies in your yard.
you might


Your hungry neighbors with their kids didn't grow their own but root through everyone's yard for food.
No kids for several miles

They shit in your water supply
nope

and then the herd moves on rooting for food as they go. Killing all the game, catching all the fish and that's just part of the 330 million hungry people. The rooters.

The next bunch will be the killers. They ain't got any idea what to root for or how to get game so they will go house to house and farm to farm killing for what they need. They will watch and wait for a man to come outside to relieve himself or feed himself then snipe him from cover.

Next group will be the haters, they will hate the world they live in so bad that they will burn it down around themselves. Their religion will kill or convert and fire will be their tool. As they get bigger in size more folks join just for the killing.

Yet your government will offer a cure for the money crisis, a government debit card that will give you food if you follow the rules. It will be a phone so they can track you and listen to all you say. Without the phone you won't be able to buy or sell useing electronic currency and you will spend every dime you have every time you get any.

Often you have said you are ready for anything, good for you and I am happy for you

I have?
Can you show me 3x?
Can you show me ONE example of me saying that?
(I'll wait)



that you enjoy living on the edge of doom.
nope
Living for the crash or being ready to bug out is all the same, it's living in fear.
I'm not doing either.... Did you read ANYTHING I said!?!


You build a bag to run with or create a lifestyle that gives you the confidence that you can go on when the rest of the world cant. You do with less and live a different standard like a peppers religion
Not at all. You really DIDN'T read a word I said did you?

and you know something I can't be critical of that at all. Yep I know you don't give a shit what anyone thinks.
Long legged redheads..... They matter.
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I notice no one ever debates whether a .30 is an adequate stopper...
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Old April 30, 2019, 10:34   #93
Bawana jim
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Originally Posted by Nomad, 2nd View Post
Long legged redheads..... They matter.
Redheads and whiskey.
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