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Old December 11, 2017, 21:49   #101
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the dude did reach back with his right hand .....
popo popo popo popo popo

shouldda kept his hand in plain sight. drunk & stupid.
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Old December 11, 2017, 21:56   #102
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the dude did reach back with his right hand .....
popo popo popo popo popo

shouldda kept his hand in plain sight. drunk & stupid.
he was on the deck prone long before he was shot, thats when he should have been cuffed, frisked, stood up, cause for arrest? Goes downtown. No cause for arrest? Uncuffed and: "we're very sorry for this intrusion sir...."
Situation de-escalated (also known as 'keeping the peace') and public is safe, like cops are supposed to do...
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Old December 11, 2017, 21:59   #103
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[QUOTE=J. Armstrong;4512350]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wil-C;4512287


3. when the legal system treats cops to the same std the public is treated, then things will change.
The video of the shooting was hidden from the jury, the judge thought it would be "unfair" to the cop were the audio / video record of what actually happened were shown to the jury.
Why is it "unfair" or "prejudicial" to show the truth to a jury so they can make a decision based on the facts?
Why was the statement enscribed on that cops rifle not allowed to be shown to the jury?
These very same things would be shown in court were it an ordinary citizen on trial for lethal force.
QUOTE

My understanding is that the jury was indeed allowed to see the video.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/ampht...2016-shooting/

Am I misreading this ?
from the article;

"Attorneys for the officer had petitioned to keep the video from being released, and a judge agreed to block its release to the public until after the trial had concluded."

read the article, that's the only mention i could find, nothing where it said the jury saw the video.
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Old December 11, 2017, 23:31   #104
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Originally Posted by Story View Post
Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeell..


http://www.tmz.com/2017/12/10/philip...-failed-actor/



Ladybugs top my list. They're duplicitous insects with a clear agenda.
He looks like he's a gay porn "actor."
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Old December 12, 2017, 02:53   #105
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he was on the deck prone long before he was shot, thats when he should have been cuffed, frisked, stood up, cause for arrest? Goes downtown. No cause for arrest? Uncuffed and: "we're very sorry for this intrusion sir...."
Situation de-escalated (also known as 'keeping the peace') and public is safe, like cops are supposed to do...

Not my theory, but the theory goes that the protocol is to make the perp(s) exit the envelope of danger (the hotel room) without the cops approaching. In theory there could be a whole enemy battalion in the hotel room! Seriously!

YMMV
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Old December 12, 2017, 08:49   #106
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[QUOTE=Wil-C;4512364]
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Originally Posted by J. Armstrong View Post

from the article;

"Attorneys for the officer had petitioned to keep the video from being released, and a judge agreed to block its release to the public until after the trial had concluded."

read the article, that's the only mention i could find, nothing where it said the jury saw the video.
Read the article, indeed

Bottom of the first paragraph: " The video was shown in court during the trial, but it was released to the public after jurors acquitted Brailsford on Thursday ".
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Old December 12, 2017, 09:41   #107
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he failed as a gay porn actor, but did pretty well as a murderer.
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Old December 12, 2017, 13:29   #108
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[QUOTE=J. Armstrong;4512457]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wil-C View Post

Read the article, indeed

Bottom of the first paragraph: " The video was shown in court during the trial, but it was released to the public after jurors acquitted Brailsford on Thursday ".
I'm by no means an English teacher but that sentence reads more like the word "not" was ommited, rather than like the jury was shown the video and then it was released.
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Old December 12, 2017, 13:51   #109
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[QUOTE=badzero;4512583]
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Originally Posted by J. Armstrong View Post

I'm by no means an English teacher but that sentence reads more like the word "not" was ommited, rather than like the jury was shown the video and then it was released.
Could be, I suppose. I'd be curious to find out for certain.
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Old December 12, 2017, 16:27   #110
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[QUOTE=badzero;4512583]
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Armstrong View Post

I'm by no means an English teacher but that sentence reads more like the word "not" was ommited, rather than like the jury was shown the video and then it was released.
you noticed this too..

I was trying to find a coherent sentence which geniunely referenced the release of the video.
not that strangely written bit.
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Old December 12, 2017, 18:52   #111
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More idiots competing for a Darwin award.


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Old December 12, 2017, 20:30   #112
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[QUOTE=badzero;4512583]
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Armstrong View Post

I'm by no means an English teacher but that sentence reads more like the word "not" was ommited, rather than like the jury was shown the video and then it was released.
Amazing what one can read into things!

"Thou shall not kill, unless provoked!", well that's how I interpret it!

YMMV
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Old December 12, 2017, 20:35   #113
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[QUOTE=Jaxxas;4512753]
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Originally Posted by badzero View Post

Amazing what one can read into things!

"Thou shall not kill, unless provoked!", well that's how I interpret it!

YMMV

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Old December 12, 2017, 21:56   #114
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Dunno' again why is it our Police are beginning to get all inked up in tribal shit ?

Personally to each their own but being all sleeved up like some Mad Max extra is not conducive to public trust in my opinion. It's called profiling and Popo does it constantly.

Looking at the vid and pix I'm guessing this tard' was well under 6', I figure roughly 5'7, maybe less so we have a manlet all inked up with his bad assed inscribed AR back shooting an unarmed man multiple times.

Shit, you don't see this kind of shit in south america, the far east, even africa at the hands of police
Yeah you will get whooped up badly but point blank back shooting on the ground ?
Shit no, you get your skull crushed with a rifle butt and usually survive.

Here we have a culture of excuse
"Well I was in fear for my life"
No you WERE NOT !!!

You had a man in the dirt, your gun in his back and surrounded by other members of your gang and you lit him up execution style
it's that simple.

Folks need to understand something
Used to be we had minimum standards for how tall and weight to enter into most LE.
That started to change with wimmins demanding LE placement so now we have legions of little manlets all scared up when they run into a six footer or more and who claim justification because of that fear.

Sure, plenty of smaller guys are perfectly fine, this dweeb looks like his graduating classes booger eating moron
I mean come on'
His initial career choice was acting ?

pure snowflake with a gun
likely voted for Hillary as well...
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Old December 12, 2017, 22:10   #115
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Looking at the vid and pix I'm guessing this tard' was well under 6', I figure roughly 5'7, maybe less so we have a manlet all inked up with his bad assed inscribed AR back shooting an unarmed man multiple times.

.....................
....................
...................
......................

Used to be we had minimum standards for how tall and weight to enter into most LE.
That started to change with wimmins demanding LE placement so now we have legions of little manlets all scared up when they run into a six footer or more and who claim justification because of that fear.

Sure, plenty of smaller guys are perfectly fine, this dweeb looks like his graduating classes booger eating moron
I mean come on'
His initial career choice was acting ?

pure snowflake with a gun
likely voted for Hillary as well...
LOL, you are here to make friends, eh!?

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Old December 12, 2017, 22:47   #116
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Call me a cold hearted bastard, but this was probably for the best. Had a dead bird he had shot in the gun case? What was that supposed to be, some kind of trophy? Mentally disturbed.

Sorry, I don't give a damn about that guy. karma at work. His family will be better of with the settlement and Mom can go marry a real daddy for the kids.
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Like the old saying goes: what goes around comes around. He will get his one day.
RSU:
You just proved to me what everyone else around here has been saying for years...
You are an idiot.

I hope that family gets something substantial, considering their kid was murdered.
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Old December 12, 2017, 22:56   #117
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LOL, you are here to make friends, eh!?
Nope, don't really give two shits about most mini Men, Four foot gurls need love too

I am however against the midget peckerwood pig mindset which is a different matter in America

Early 90s a young friend of mine went into a LE cert program, just under 6'5 with degrees in martial arts.
Great kid, had nothing but issues with you midgets.

instuctors told him he was too intimidating to be in LE due to his build
Yeah he was told that a number of times, too scary due to complaints by lezzie students., after a second cert program he blew it off because of muchkin pressure. His grades were top end, good guy just too much muchkin mania

Personally I have very little respect for little boys thinking they are capable of a Mans job expecting everyone should respect their new Authority which they generally brandish

trust me, sooner rather than later families, friends, girl friends or otherwise will just start shooting these murderers dead. Going to happen, too much of it going on
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Old December 12, 2017, 23:01   #118
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RSU:
You just proved to me what everyone else around here has been saying for years...
You are an idiot.

I hope that family gets something substantial, considering their kid was murdered.
I couldn't care less what you think. The fact is the guy stuck a rifle out a window, someone saw it, and the cops were called.....duh. When you do something like that the regular cops don't show up, the really bad ones do. He was half responsible. Plus it didn't help that he suddenly moved his right hand towards his waist like he was grabbing a gun. The SWAT leader is responsible too. He handled it about as unprofessionally as he could have. The dumb kid that pulled the trigger?....let's be honest, he shouldn't even be on a SWAT team in the first place. Human resources fumbled the ball too.

Maybe you think the couple that saw the rifle and called the police should be sued too. I mean...they got the ball rolling, right?

It was a comedy of errors. Bad deal all around. Some people shouldn't have guns....even BB guns.
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Old December 12, 2017, 23:14   #119
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the dude did reach back with his right hand .....
popo popo popo popo popo

shouldda kept his hand in plain sight. drunk & stupid.
The pussy cops had more than one opportunity to cuff the man while he was on his face in the hallway.
If that sort of shit scares cops to the point of murdering someone, they need a better vetting process.
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Old December 12, 2017, 23:17   #120
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The dumb kid that pulled the trigger?....let's be honest, he shouldn't even be on a SWAT team in the first place.
And yet, it sounds like you're agreeing with me now...

WTF?
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Old December 12, 2017, 23:44   #121
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You quoted something I wrote last year. I was 100 percent putting blame on the deceased. After further review I've softened some, but not to the point that the kid that shot is solely responsible. I actually think he played a small role. He was akin to a K9 officer, followed his training. The jury saw it that way too.
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Old December 13, 2017, 16:53   #122
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I'm pretty sure I'm going to get flamed for this, and I don't mean to personally offend anyone, that said, I noticed something years ago when I came home from overseas. Every kid that had gotten bullied in high school had become a cop of some sort and they all had a payback attitude.
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Old December 13, 2017, 22:50   #123
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I'm pretty sure I'm going to get flamed for this, and I don't mean to personally offend anyone, that said, I noticed something years ago when I came home from overseas. Every kid that had gotten bullied in high school had become a cop of some sort and they all had a payback attitude.
Local university cop gunned down a negro a while back (with 13 or more chilluns by about as many babymommas), who was otherwise unarmed and more or less just a minor troublemaker, during a stop near the local public commuter university. He got off after a couple mistrials, but the upshot is that his former schoolmates are saying cop was a thug and bully during high school and was in no way qualified to be a cop.
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Old December 14, 2017, 01:24   #124
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i have had the popo draw down on me a few times & i can say with no ego i reached for the sky & tried to touch the heavens. also played "simon says", musta been pretty good.
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Old December 14, 2017, 10:05   #125
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The dumb kid that pulled the trigger?....let's be honest, he shouldn't even be on a SWAT team in the first place. Human resources fumbled the ball too.
local PA departments that i know about have a minimum age and length of service requirement for SWAT type assignment.
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The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
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Old December 14, 2017, 11:01   #126
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From an article in Fox, statement by the prosecutor Sweet:

"I just don't understand how anybody could watch that video and then say 'not guilty,' that this is justified," Sweet said. "That Daniel deserved this and that Philip Brailsford doesn't deserve to be held accountable for his actions."


I think this also implies that the jury was shown the body cam footage, although it is still not a clear statement of such. I find it unlikely ( but unfortunately, not impossible ) that the video could be excluded from the jury.
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Old December 14, 2017, 13:29   #127
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We do the best we can.............we ain't perfect, Cops ain't perfect.....we all do the best we can do............unless you are a democrat.

We are humans; people die, mistakes are made in life and war.
We do the best we can, and move on.

Karmic justice seem to follow on, soon enough. Trust in God.
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Old December 14, 2017, 22:52   #128
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I couldn't care less what you think. The fact is the guy stuck a rifle out a window, someone saw it, and the cops were called.....duh. When you do something like that the regular cops don't show up, the really bad ones do. He was half responsible. Plus it didn't help that he suddenly moved his right hand towards his waist like he was grabbing a gun. The SWAT leader is responsible too. He handled it about as unprofessionally as he could have. The dumb kid that pulled the trigger?....let's be honest, he shouldn't even be on a SWAT team in the first place. Human resources fumbled the ball too.

Maybe you think the couple that saw the rifle and called the police should be sued too. I mean...they got the ball rolling, right?

It was a comedy of errors. Bad deal all around. Some people shouldn't have guns....even BB guns.
huh, guess the same goes for pre teens playing with squirt guns and air softs too. Some years back some retard called the popo on some kids with squirt guns in a back alley. Kid "armed" with a Super Soaker was gunned down dead. Popo claimed they felt threated...yeah by a Super Soaker.

A great part of the problem IS the public armed with Cell phones calling in over just plain stupid shit.
Was watching an episode of Live PD a month ago. Cops got a call on Man with Gun. Turned out it was some oldster with a chunk of bannister or a spindle, cant remember which. Nope, no one was lit up, Cops have to respond of course but every so often shit happens.

The kid with the Super Soaker was like eight years old, failed to respond to commands, well heck you can't expect a little kid to respond like adults
Same shit happened with that black kid playing with an airsoft in a City Park. Failure to respond to commands so BOOM !

Guess I grew up around different LEOs
used to be some nutter was holed up the Sheriff showed up, usually ended up walking the guy out, no SWAT, no cuffs, no gun or body armor even. Knew several Sheriffs who did that kind of crap. It was just part of the damn job.

Yeah that takes a big huge pair of nuts and those Men had them
not so much today
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Old December 14, 2017, 23:23   #129
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True story, here in Tucson Az, where I work in an industrial complex for a small corporation of about 50 employees. We have quite a few gun guys employed, a few of which are into the NFA items. It's a pretty regular occurrence when somebody gets a new acquisition that all the gun guys meet around that guy's vehicle to ooh and aahhh over the new toy. When behind the building we can only point the toys either east or west. East was/is an office building that we rarely seen anybody coming or going from and west is a trucking company parking lot. We have been doing this for years, probably 15-20 years. Then one day we found out who exactly the occupants of the building to the east were. The FBI, a covert/undercover office, and as soon as another tenant in the complex discovered who they were they were gone overnight! Apparently they had been renting that building for 8 years and we didn't have a clue. We had been handling a multitude of firearms and related gear for 8 years right in their front yard with nary a word spoken.
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Old December 14, 2017, 23:24   #130
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I'm pretty sure I'm going to get flamed for this, and I don't mean to personally offend anyone, that said, I noticed something years ago when I came home from overseas. Every kid that had gotten bullied in high school had become a cop of some sort and they all had a payback attitude.
It's what's known as the booger eating moron syndrome BZ

Had the same thing happen in my Highschool to an extant.
You had two groups that went into LE
One were those recruited by local cops, generally younger hell raisers. Figure a third of them ended up screwing the Poodle during their careers badly.
Some of those that became somewhat un employable ended up getting jobs as instructors at Community College based LE Certification programs. Those that can no longer do often end up teaching.

The other group were classic booger eating morons that were extensively bullied. Generally the were smaller kiddos, not in sports that developed an eternal chip on the shoulder.
Uniform and a gun made them little billy badasses.
Interestingly these were they guys that often ended up in leadership roles in their departments as either Police Chiefs or Chief of Deputies...they generally excel at paper pushing but worthless as tits on a boar pig when it came to being on the street.

We had a few of those guys in the County, most all ended up in administrative desk positions long after they got the boot here.

Another thing about that group is the way most of them made it through Community College, a fair number of them were snitching other students out to the instructors for having parties. One friend was booted from the program in Alexandria MN on morals grounds. See, him and a few other guys would retire to one of their apartments to quietly party up on the weekends. That resulted in an accusation that they were a bunch of Queers indulging in gay orgies. Yeah no shit !
like five guys were terminated

Another fellow was shitcanned on morals
his offense ?
He was having an affair on his live-in GF.

The accuser ended up becoming a cop up here for a number of years until he was busted screwing his 15 year old niece on his wife's side of the family
Pedo started doing her at 12 years old.
Same asshole was ratting out our Senior parties in Highschool
Case was real quiet like but he still ended up as a registered sex offender.
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Old December 15, 2017, 12:50   #131
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Cops are hired out of the general population.

Frankly, it is good that most want to drive fast cars and shoot guns.

Community College criminal justice programs, and follow on Police Academies, train & produce cops; people who want to do the job, a dangerous job.

That they are on edge every day, is based on historical precedents.

Murder and assault is something no one wants to be charged with.
Today a V&T stop can end up badly.

I don't want the job, but I am glad that the constant threat of them arriving, keeps the scum wary, and not on a constant rampage.

Cops are like Doctors; you will die without them.
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Old December 15, 2017, 15:46   #132
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Originally Posted by V guy View Post
Cops are hired out of the general population.

Frankly, it is good that most want to drive fast cars and shoot guns.

Community College criminal justice programs, and follow on Police Academies, train & produce cops; people who want to do the job, a dangerous job.

That they are on edge every day, is based on historical precedents.

Murder and assault is something no one wants to be charged with.
Today a V&T stop can end up badly.

I don't want the job, but I am glad that the constant threat of them arriving, keeps the scum wary, and not on a constant rampage.

Cops are like Doctors; you will die without them.
And the bad eggs of both continue to kill innocents and besmirch the reputations and honor of the good ones.

Respect and appreciate the good, understand the humanity of all, weed out the bad.
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Old December 15, 2017, 19:32   #133
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A lifetime of SSRIs, tatted up Billy joe badass with an AR. Have mercy for on his soul if that was my kid that was murdered.
Right out of the pages of Battlefield America
https://www.amazon.com/Battlefield-A.../dp/1590793099
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Old December 16, 2017, 03:17   #134
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Firstly, that wasn't the SWAT team, it was the local patrol cops who broke out their patrol rifles to handle a "man with gun" call. FYI, contrary to what the lamestream media say, most cops are killed on such calls rather than traffic stops.

Secondly, I can see how this happened but I surely don't condone it. Why in God's name the dickhead Sgt was shouting orders and being an ass, I have no idea. Yes, the hallway was narrow but I think they could have told him not to move, advanced forward as a team and handcuffed him in situ.

Thirdly, there is NO way the shooter should have been moving forward after the shooting to clear another room! He should have been immediately stopped and replaced. The whole situation should have been frozen at that point and immediate medical assistance rendered to the guy who was shot. I did not hear one cop call out "shots fired" over the radio or call for medical assistance.

Fourth, the supervisor in charge of this incident should have been stood in the defendant's box too as he shared just as much blame as the guy who pulled the trigger. Simple, concise and clear instructions are required. Not all these threats about being shot, being killed etc. Bad all the way round.

Wil-C; you know NOTHING about the profession of peace officer or you failed to read a word of my previous posts. Both you and Brunop have failed to understand anything I have tried to explain.

EVERY cop who goes out on the street today knows they could face total financial ruin, the loss of their liberty and their family by making a wrong decision, often in a split second. Pray tell, how much more pressure do you think you can put on a copper?

Just today, I and a colleague cleared a single wide trailer with guns drawn because the owner feared her boyfriend's father (who had a warrant for his arrest for beating the crap out of her last evening) was inside with an AK. Fortunately, he wasn't in the residence. We had discussed doing what's called a "surround and call out" where we don't clear the residence but wait outside and try to have the bad guy come out to us. However, if the guy doesn't come out, someone has to go get him because he presents a credible threat to others.

Think about this: if your grand idea of making me somehow personally responsible for my actions comes to fruition, what should I do? Say f#ck it, I'm not taking part in this because the personal financial risk to me is too high and let the maniac with the AK possibly kill his kid's GF? Is that what you want? If so, f&ck it, I'm hanging up my star and going to go do something else.

People are going to fcuk up. Medics, doctors, firefighters, soldiers, accountants and cops do so. What is important is to reduce the number of times they screw up. Almost a million cops in this nation and they shoot just over a thousand people a year, the vast majority of whom had it coming because they did bad shit. What are we left with? Some truly bad shoots like this one which could have been avoided if there were better cops on the job.

Because a truly small number of cops who act like this exist, you want to threaten me and hundreds of thousands of others with financial ruin from the safety of your couch. F&ck you. Truthfully, GFY.

FYI, the jury had access to everything; the video, the reports, the expert witness testimony, everything. They found this guy not guilty. You don't like it, hell, I don't like it but the fact is the system was utilized, the victim had his day in court and a verdict was rendered. That's the American way. Want a lynching? Go someplace else.

I hope the widow wins big.
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Old December 16, 2017, 08:13   #135
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Firstly, that wasn't the SWAT team, it was the local patrol cops who broke out their patrol rifles to handle a "man with gun" call. FYI, contrary to what the lamestream media say, most cops are killed on such calls rather than traffic stops.

Secondly, I can see how this happened but I surely don't condone it. Why in God's name the dickhead Sgt was shouting orders and being an ass, I have no idea. Yes, the hallway was narrow but I think they could have told him not to move, advanced forward as a team and handcuffed him in situ.

Thirdly, there is NO way the shooter should have been moving forward after the shooting to clear another room! He should have been immediately stopped and replaced. The whole situation should have been frozen at that point and immediate medical assistance rendered to the guy who was shot. I did not hear one cop call out "shots fired" over the radio or call for medical assistance.

Fourth, the supervisor in charge of this incident should have been stood in the defendant's box too as he shared just as much blame as the guy who pulled the trigger. Simple, concise and clear instructions are required. Not all these threats about being shot, being killed etc. Bad all the way round.

Wil-C; you know NOTHING about the profession of peace officer or you failed to read a word of my previous posts. Both you and Brunop have failed to understand anything I have tried to explain.

EVERY cop who goes out on the street today knows they could face total financial ruin, the loss of their liberty and their family by making a wrong decision, often in a split second. Pray tell, how much more pressure do you think you can put on a copper?

Just today, I and a colleague cleared a single wide trailer with guns drawn because the owner feared her boyfriend's father (who had a warrant for his arrest for beating the crap out of her last evening) was inside with an AK. Fortunately, he wasn't in the residence. We had discussed doing what's called a "surround and call out" where we don't clear the residence but wait outside and try to have the bad guy come out to us. However, if the guy doesn't come out, someone has to go get him because he presents a credible threat to others.

Think about this: if your grand idea of making me somehow personally responsible for my actions comes to fruition, what should I do? Say f#ck it, I'm not taking part in this because the personal financial risk to me is too high and let the maniac with the AK possibly kill his kid's GF? Is that what you want? If so, f&ck it, I'm hanging up my star and going to go do something else.

People are going to fcuk up. Medics, doctors, firefighters, soldiers, accountants and cops do so. What is important is to reduce the number of times they screw up. Almost a million cops in this nation and they shoot just over a thousand people a year, the vast majority of whom had it coming because they did bad shit. What are we left with? Some truly bad shoots like this one which could have been avoided if there were better cops on the job.

Because a truly small number of cops who act like this exist, you want to threaten me and hundreds of thousands of others with financial ruin from the safety of your couch. F&ck you. Truthfully, GFY.

FYI, the jury had access to everything; the video, the reports, the expert witness testimony, everything. They found this guy not guilty. You don't like it, hell, I don't like it but the fact is the system was utilized, the victim had his day in court and a verdict was rendered. That's the American way. Want a lynching? Go someplace else.

I hope the widow wins big.
As usual, well said, concisely put.
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Old December 16, 2017, 08:40   #136
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Originally Posted by the gman View Post
People are going to fcuk up. Medics, doctors, firefighters, soldiers, accountants and cops do so. What is important is to reduce the number of times they screw up. Almost a million cops in this nation and they shoot just over a thousand people a year, the vast majority of whom had it coming because they did bad shit. What are we left with? Some truly bad shoots like this one which could have been avoided if there were better cops on the job.

Because a truly small number of cops who act like this exist, you want to threaten me and hundreds of thousands of others with financial ruin
You are absolutely correct
Here's the thing though
When your Doctor cuts off your dick instead of taking out your ruptured Appendix he is liable for Civil consequences. Same is absolutely true of an Accountant who screws the Poodle.
Criminal & Direct Civil judgements help hopefully keep professions relatively clean of fucktardery rampantly apparent in this incident.

I do think that in this new age of body cams and what not what we will see is billy badass types more rapidly weeded from positions of public trust which is a very good thing.
It's just going to be a gradual learning curve in my opinion.
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Old December 16, 2017, 12:45   #137
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You are absolutely correct
Here's the thing though
When your Doctor cuts off your dick instead of taking out your ruptured Appendix he is liable for Civil consequences. Same is absolutely true of an Accountant who screws the Poodle.
Criminal & Direct Civil judgements help hopefully keep professions relatively clean of fucktardery rampantly apparent in this incident.

I do think that in this new age of body cams and what not what we will see is billy badass types more rapidly weeded from positions of public trust which is a very good thing.
It's just going to be a gradual learning curve in my opinion.
Nope. The psychiatrist I arrested earlier this year for perving on and sexually abusing his patients isn't out one dime. The hospital who employed him is on the hook for millions.

There's also a fundamental difference between peace officers (Lord, how I HATE the phrase 'Law Enforcement' ) and most other professions. Peace officers are given the sacred trust of the population to solve problems they don't want to. With this trust comes great responsibility. My job is not one of revenue generation by finding as many people as possible to fine for petty traffic offenses. I'm predominately engaged in actively making people's lives better whether that involves getting drunk drivers off the road, getting abused women help and arresting their abusers or talking to a loud neighbor so he'll stop annoying people.

We the people give peace officers the trust to remove people's liberty by arresting them and the power to use deadly force if necessary. That's an incredible responsibility and often one not properly reinforced by agency administrators. I will say this until I am blue in the face: the major problems facing cops and society in general is a fundamental lack of LEADERSHIP.

For some reason, when cops get to higher positions in agencies, they lose their friggin' minds and their balls. This is precisely the reason I changed from city police to the Sheriff's Office 7 weeks ago. My Sheriff is an awesome leader and he's got great leaders under him. He is a constitutional Sheriff and isn't afraid to challenge Federal overreach and who truly believes in policing by consent. I digress.

You all seem to want cops to have some kind of accountability but the reality is they already do. I readily agree this depends on where the agency is located because east coast agencies are often more highly unionized that out west. For the entire time I have been a cop, I have been told anything I do could lead to me being imprisoned, sued, fired and financially ruined with the consequent disastrous effects on my family. Not to mention the very uncertainty of my profession with the ever present concern if the next call I go to could be one where I may be killed or injured. No, being a cop isn't as dangerous as a crab fisherman or a lumberjack but crabs and trees aren't actively looking to kill folks just doing their jobs but many people cops come into contact with most definitely are. The above is what makes peace officers 100% unique and separate from any other work out there.

Look, this isn't a 'woe is me, my life sucks' post; quite the opposite. I absolutely LOVE what I do. A family came to us last night looking for help with a delicate issue and I was able to help them and as a team, my agency will hopefully be able to catch some really bad guys and lock them up. That's what keeps me sane, makes me happy and encourages me to keep on with this profession. Have a great day.
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Old December 16, 2017, 13:35   #138
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Maybe this might help.

Ways cops are held accountable:

1. By their peers: being a pariah at your work isn't pleasant. No joke, it happens and cops leave agencies because of it.

2. By their agency: discipline can range from coaching to written reprimands to demotion, days off without pay and ultimately, being fired. Happens all the time; people look good on paper but they can't cut it on the street and are let go.

3. By Citizen Review/Oversight Boards: similar range of punishments as #2 but administered by folks outside of police agencies. Takes a lot of the issues of 'cops policing cops' out of the equation.

4. Being civilly sued in State Court: every state I am aware of allows police to be sued under a range of offenses from malicious prosecution to excessive use of force et al.

5. Being civilly sued in Federal Court: as above but usually with higher in terms of financial penalties.

6. Being prosecuted in State Court: prosecution for any crimes such as battery, aggravated assault up to and including murder.

7. In addition to the above, being prosecuted by the Federal Government in Federal Court for violation of civil rights, murder and a whole slew of other crimes. Please note, double jeopardy doesn't apply in these cases. In other words, if I am tried for murder in State Court and acquitted there, I can be tried in Federal Court for the same crime and be found guilty. Yeah, really.

8. By the public: a former colleague shot a Navajo who was trying to kill him. He was vilified in the press, by people who knew him, his kids were bullied at school, he was investigated by the Feds, by the State and by the Navajo Nation who sponsored a law suit against him and my former agency. Only when it got to trial and the witness (the decedent's girlfriend) had to testify under oath did she admit she had lied time after time and the guy had tried to kill the cop. If you don't think that copper went through hell, you have no idea what its like to be falsely accused of doing something wrong.

Name me another profession where a split second decision made under extremely stressful conditions with less than complete information and next to no prior planning can lead to the above consequences. But some of you want some kind of extra potential consequences because you *think* that will mysteriously solve the supposed issues you're commenting on.
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Old December 16, 2017, 21:27   #139
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Firstly, that wasn't the SWAT team, it was the local patrol cops who broke out their patrol rifles to handle a "man with gun" call. FYI, contrary to what the lamestream media say, most cops are killed on such calls rather than traffic stops.

Secondly, I can see how this happened but I surely don't condone it. Why in God's name the dickhead Sgt was shouting orders and being an ass, I have no idea. Yes, the hallway was narrow but I think they could have told him not to move, advanced forward as a team and handcuffed him in situ.

Thirdly, there is NO way the shooter should have been moving forward after the shooting to clear another room! He should have been immediately stopped and replaced. The whole situation should have been frozen at that point and immediate medical assistance rendered to the guy who was shot. I did not hear one cop call out "shots fired" over the radio or call for medical assistance.

Fourth, the supervisor in charge of this incident should have been stood in the defendant's box too as he shared just as much blame as the guy who pulled the trigger. Simple, concise and clear instructions are required. Not all these threats about being shot, being killed etc. Bad all the way round.

Wil-C; you know NOTHING about the profession of peace officer or you failed to read a word of my previous posts. Both you and Brunop have failed to understand anything I have tried to explain.

EVERY cop who goes out on the street today knows they could face total financial ruin, the loss of their liberty and their family by making a wrong decision, often in a split second. Pray tell, how much more pressure do you think you can put on a copper?

Just today, I and a colleague cleared a single wide trailer with guns drawn because the owner feared her boyfriend's father (who had a warrant for his arrest for beating the crap out of her last evening) was inside with an AK. Fortunately, he wasn't in the residence. We had discussed doing what's called a "surround and call out" where we don't clear the residence but wait outside and try to have the bad guy come out to us. However, if the guy doesn't come out, someone has to go get him because he presents a credible threat to others.

Think about this: if your grand idea of making me somehow personally responsible for my actions comes to fruition, what should I do? Say f#ck it, I'm not taking part in this because the personal financial risk to me is too high and let the maniac with the AK possibly kill his kid's GF? Is that what you want? If so, f&ck it, I'm hanging up my star and going to go do something else.

People are going to fcuk up. Medics, doctors, firefighters, soldiers, accountants and cops do so. What is important is to reduce the number of times they screw up. Almost a million cops in this nation and they shoot just over a thousand people a year, the vast majority of whom had it coming because they did bad shit. What are we left with? Some truly bad shoots like this one which could have been avoided if there were better cops on the job.

Because a truly small number of cops who act like this exist, you want to threaten me and hundreds of thousands of others with financial ruin from the safety of your couch. F&ck you. Truthfully, GFY.

FYI, the jury had access to everything; the video, the reports, the expert witness testimony, everything. They found this guy not guilty. You don't like it, hell, I don't like it but the fact is the system was utilized, the victim had his day in court and a verdict was rendered. That's the American way. Want a lynching? Go someplace else.

I hope the widow wins big.
I rest my case as to the truths I brought up. You just proved them.

Being held to the same std as myself and the rest of the public in terms of the use of lethal force, which we properly call personal responsibility, and your response is to rant about tossing your badge. Then resort to the same BS excuses we've heard so many times and resort to the juevenile use of profanity.
No better example of the three main things I brought up than your example given here. So typical of far too many cops nowadays.
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Old December 17, 2017, 14:40   #140
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I rest my case as to the truths I brought up. You just proved them.

Being held to the same std as myself and the rest of the public in terms of the use of lethal force, which we properly call personal responsibility, and your response is to rant about tossing your badge. Then resort to the same BS excuses we've heard so many times and resort to the juevenile use of profanity.
No better example of the three main things I brought up than your example given here. So typical of far too many cops nowadays.
You're ignorant and uninformed but don't let that get in the way of your prejudice. Hard to hold citizens to the same standard as cops when you have NO obligation or duty to become involved in any kind of use of force unless you are threatened personally.

The day you saddle up and voluntarily hop off your ivory tower to go face bad people with guns is the day you can be held to the same standard. FYI, if you happened to miss my last post, you'll see cops are held to a much HIGHER standard than Joe Public because if you smoke someone in self defense, you aren't going to be charged with Federal Civil Rights abuse charges nor stand the chance of double jeopardy, most likely won't lose your job or have to spend the rest of your life in a jail where you put many of the turds already incarcerated. But no, please tell me how again how cops need to be held to the same standard as citizens.

I'll wait but as usual, blowhard ignorant tools like you bring NOTHING to the table...
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Old December 17, 2017, 21:51   #141
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You quoted something I wrote last year. I was 100 percent putting blame on the deceased. After further review I've softened some, but not to the point that the kid that shot is solely responsible. I actually think he played a small role. He was akin to a K9 officer, followed his training. The jury saw it that way too.
So they tell the victim to first lay face down with fingers interlaced. And not move or they will shoot him. Then they tell him to crawl towards them, which means he is moving and now they can shoot him because he failed to follow the first command. Makes complete sense.

As others said, what is wrong with cuffing him and calling it a day?

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A great part of the problem IS the public armed with Cell phones calling in over just plain stupid shit.
I did read about groups telling each other on facebook that if they see a gunowner, or someone they do not like, to call 911 and say there is a man waving a gun at children. Wasn't there someone who got killed at wal mart for holding a toy gun off the rack?

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Yeah that takes a big huge pair of nuts and those Men had them not so much today
It is all about the us-vs-them ideology, including the fact we are not the citizenry but civilians. Which means cops are...?
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Old December 17, 2017, 22:37   #142
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I'll wait but as usual, blowhard ignorant tools like you bring NOTHING to the table...

We are the fuking people and we vote dumbass!
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Old December 18, 2017, 10:01   #143
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you have NO obligation or duty to become involved in any kind of use of force unless you are threatened personally.
20years ago i saw a man dragging a young woman down an alley in York city by her hair. i intervened, and he pointed a gun at me. it was aBB gun that looked like a 1911 in 45 to most people. luckily, i was not most people.

i called him on it, and he dropped the girl and bb gun an ran. he was arrested within 2 days, as his prints were on file from an earlier arrest. in that moment i had an obligation, and a legal right to intervene under PA code, which empowers the use of up to and including deadly force in response to "heinous crimes against the body", whether it be my body, or someone else's... i could have shot him, if i had been carrying a gun, and claimed that i didn't know it wasn't real.

it has been found in the SCOTUS that police do not have an enforceable duty to protect from harm. often they fail to do so. hence the importance of every person being able to protect themselves.

i carry a gun more now, in case the next one is actually a 45.
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Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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Old December 18, 2017, 15:38   #144
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20years ago i saw a man dragging a young woman down an alley in York city by her hair. i intervened, and he pointed a gun at me. it was aBB gun that looked like a 1911 in 45 to most people. luckily, i was not most people.

i called him on it, and he dropped the girl and bb gun an ran. he was arrested within 2 days, as his prints were on file from an earlier arrest. in that moment i had an obligation, and a legal right to intervene under PA code, which empowers the use of up to and including deadly force in response to "heinous crimes against the body", whether it be my body, or someone else's... i could have shot him, if i had been carrying a gun, and claimed that i didn't know it wasn't real.

it has been found in the SCOTUS that police do not have an enforceable duty to protect from harm. often they fail to do so. hence the importance of every person being able to protect themselves.

i carry a gun more now, in case the next one is actually a 45.
No, you had no DUTY to intervene. You CHOSE to involve yourself (for which I personally commend you for doing so) and it worked out OK for you. The obligation occurred as a direct result of your choice to interject yourself into the situation. As an aside, challenging bad actors with what appear to be firearms when unarmed is a risky proposition and you were lucky to walk away from it; others have not been so lucky.

I agree everyone should be responsible for their own safety but under circumstances such as we are discussing, if I fail to act, I would expect to be disciplined and likely fired from my agency. SCOTUS has indeed ruled police have no constitutional duty to protect anyone from harm (rightly so) but when I am dispatched to a 'man with a gun' call, I have a duty to my agency to respond, to take action if necessary and resolve the situation.

A private citizen has no such duty or obligation, armed or unarmed. This is the essential difference between a peace officer and a citizen. The citizen doesn't face the same raft of potential consequences for a split second decision as does a cop ergo asking that the cop be judged like a citizen is fallacious and inaccurate.
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Old December 18, 2017, 15:48   #145
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So they tell the victim to first lay face down with fingers interlaced. And not move or they will shoot him. Then they tell him to crawl towards them, which means he is moving and now they can shoot him because he failed to follow the first command. Makes complete sense.

As others said, what is wrong with cuffing him and calling it a day?



I did read about groups telling each other on facebook that if they see a gunowner, or someone they do not like, to call 911 and say there is a man waving a gun at children. Wasn't there someone who got killed at wal mart for holding a toy gun off the rack?



It is all about the us-vs-them ideology, including the fact we are not the citizenry but civilians. Which means cops are...?
1. Said that in my first post after I saw the video; spread him out, cuff him right there. No reason not to and only confused the hell out of everyone including the guy who actually shot him.

2. Yes, lots of people call with stupid reports. Had one the other day where citizen calls to report "150 rounds of rapid fire from a large caliber weapon, probably a .308, about a mile away from my house." Seriously? At 1950 hours, you can tell all that from a mile away? As usual, turned out to be fireworks but we get lots like that... Couple that with many cops who can't tell one gun from another and people with toy guns are going to get shot, especially when they do stupid things with the toy guns like pointing them at cops.

3. Depends on where you are in the US. My agency never refers to civilians, always to citizens or members of the community. I'm a citizen who puts on different colored clothes than you to go to work but I've also sworn several oaths to uphold the constitution, to serve my community and to be worthy of their trust. Some places (mostly metro areas) do view it as a 'them vs us' type situation and that's a shame but not much I can do about it.
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Old December 18, 2017, 15:49   #146
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We are the fuking people and we vote dumbass!
Great. I vote too. However, your handle and avatar apparently tell me all I need to know about you.
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Old December 18, 2017, 18:46   #147
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Cops are "Officers of the Court."

We, as a society, delgate to the Police, "the police power,"; they are then authorized to use force, in our name, to keep the peace and to arrest the bad guys.

This police power, comes from the bundle or rights theory, and as part of the social compact, worldwide, we authorize them to act as cops.

They have more rights to act, but more responsibilities than us.
"Put your hands behind your back," is a command, not a debate, because we delegated to them the right to do that, when you may present a danger.

"Officer of the Court" is damn thin protection, but there it is.

This cop shot, but within the parameters of what he was authorized to do, AS A COP/OFFICER OF THE COURT................. and the Jury saw it that way; so would I.

We are NOT the same as Cops,
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Old December 18, 2017, 22:16   #148
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No, you had no DUTY to intervene. You CHOSE to involve yourself (for which I personally commend you for doing so) and it worked out OK for you. The obligation occurred as a direct result of your choice to interject yourself into the situation. As an aside, challenging bad actors with what appear to be firearms when unarmed is a risky proposition and you were lucky to walk away from it; others have not been so lucky.

I agree everyone should be responsible for their own safety but under circumstances such as we are discussing, if I fail to act, I would expect to be disciplined and likely fired from my agency. SCOTUS has indeed ruled police have no constitutional duty to protect anyone from harm (rightly so) but when I am dispatched to a 'man with a gun' call, I have a duty to my agency to respond, to take action if necessary and resolve the situation.

A private citizen has no such duty or obligation, armed or unarmed. This is the essential difference between a peace officer and a citizen. The citizen doesn't face the same raft of potential consequences for a split second decision as does a cop ergo asking that the cop be judged like a citizen is fallacious and inaccurate.
Well I'll toss you somewhat of a Hot Potato:

A small number of States maintain so-called "Good Samaritan" Statutes.
Minnesota has these and they basically mandate the Citizens here render assistance and relieves the individual from potential civil consequences from doing so.

Say you come across a roll over out in the sticks, gas is pouring from the vehicle and the driver is bleeding out.
Under penalty of Criminal sanctions you are mandated to render aid. No, you don't drive by minding your own business even if you have consumed a few beers to many at the Club.

This is some pretty old Code here in this State however it was still being taught in High School Business Law classes as late as the 80s. Yes, prosecutions were extremely rare however as far as I know it's still the law of the land here.

Now let's say you drag a victim out of a car wreak and damage them somehow. You had protection from Civil liability provided you were acting in Good Faith in an attempt to save them.
Now I have never heard it applied in Court as part of a self defense situation however obviously the same principles at in play. I had two situations where I used it. I won't bother to get into detail, too many candyassed pole polishing fools on these forums. Basically I intervened in assaults, hurt some asshole badly resulting in the Popo cuffing & stuffing me then had the DA refuse to prosecute based upon my pushing the Good Samaritan legal angle.
Both cases were while I resided in the Twin Cities and involved some jackass whooping up a gal in public.

Anyways, like I stated there are a few States that have a statutory expectation that if you see something you yourself should physically engage and do something.
These Codes came about decades before Cell phones. If the public just drove on by people die. Think about even someone in the ditch during -40 degree weather out in the boondocks. That's what these Laws were mostly directed at. I have always taken it a bit further than all that, just sayin' this notion as Citizens the general public is under no mandate to help others is very situational on the jurisdiction.
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Old December 18, 2017, 23:00   #149
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Cops are "Officers of the Court."

We, as a society, delgate to the Police, "the police power,"; they are then authorized to use force, in our name, to keep the peace and to arrest the bad guys.

This police power, comes from the bundle or rights theory, and as part of the social compact, worldwide, we authorize them to act as cops.

They have more rights to act, but more responsibilities than us.
"Put your hands behind your back," is a command, not a debate, because we delegated to them the right to do that, when you may present a danger.

"Officer of the Court" is damn thin protection, but there it is.

This cop shot, but within the parameters of what he was authorized to do, AS A COP/OFFICER OF THE COURT................. and the Jury saw it that way; so would I.

We are NOT the same as Cops,
Way too broad of an interpetation in my opinion.

Just as we have unlawful Orders in the military we as well have unlawful Commands in Law Enforcement that we retain every lawful right to resist.
Nope, don't happen often at all V but occur it does.

Recall a case of a Rapist piglet
He targeted young girls leaving clubs late in the evenings
asshole was a known quantity and a Sargent on his force, did this shit multiple times. He finally ended up cut up badly by a younger Native gal who left him in a bloody mess on the side of the road, victim of her grand dad's straight razor. She straight up cut most of his nose off, did a number on his genitals. He was found next to his squad car, trousers pooled at his ankles.

Gal drove home, hit 911 and confessed to the dispatcher. Cops wanted her charged with attempted murder, well the County DA refused to prosecute based on his prior history, refused any charges

Again this is extremely rare shit but if LE commands you to do something unlawful one has an absolute legal right to resist. In that case Officer Fatty commanded her to suck his dick on the shoulder of the highway. Girl rightously mutilated the abusive asshole.

You made a great point earlier in that our Police are drawn from the Public at large. Well that pool is extremely deep and includes rapists, pedophiles, all manner of scum and a few manage to get into a LE career.
just like others end up in Kongress or the military

I see it this way
I have no shits given about credentials or status. That gives you nada any right to rape, molest, steal, etc

Just sayin' there are many shades of grey in these discussions.
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Old December 19, 2017, 00:07   #150
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Nope. The psychiatrist I arrested earlier this year for perving on and sexually abusing his patients isn't out one dime. The hospital who employed him is on the hook for millions.

There's also a fundamental difference between peace officers (Lord, how I HATE the phrase 'Law Enforcement' ) and most other professions. Peace officers are given the sacred trust of the population to solve problems they don't want to. With this trust comes great responsibility. My job is not one of revenue generation by finding as many people as possible to fine for petty traffic offenses. I'm predominately engaged in actively making people's lives better whether that involves getting drunk drivers off the road, getting abused women help and arresting their abusers or talking to a loud neighbor so he'll stop annoying people.

We the people give peace officers the trust to remove people's liberty by arresting them and the power to use deadly force if necessary. That's an incredible responsibility and often one not properly reinforced by agency administrators. I will say this until I am blue in the face: the major problems facing cops and society in general is a fundamental lack of LEADERSHIP.

For some reason, when cops get to higher positions in agencies, they lose their friggin' minds and their balls. This is precisely the reason I changed from city police to the Sheriff's Office 7 weeks ago. My Sheriff is an awesome leader and he's got great leaders under him. He is a constitutional Sheriff and isn't afraid to challenge Federal overreach and who truly believes in policing by consent. I digress.

You all seem to want cops to have some kind of accountability but the reality is they already do. I readily agree this depends on where the agency is located because east coast agencies are often more highly unionized that out west. For the entire time I have been a cop, I have been told anything I do could lead to me being imprisoned, sued, fired and financially ruined with the consequent disastrous effects on my family. Not to mention the very uncertainty of my profession with the ever present concern if the next call I go to could be one where I may be killed or injured. No, being a cop isn't as dangerous as a crab fisherman or a lumberjack but crabs and trees aren't actively looking to kill folks just doing their jobs but many people cops come into contact with most definitely are. The above is what makes peace officers 100% unique and separate from any other work out there.

Look, this isn't a 'woe is me, my life sucks' post; quite the opposite. I absolutely LOVE what I do. A family came to us last night looking for help with a delicate issue and I was able to help them and as a team, my agency will hopefully be able to catch some really bad guys and lock them up. That's what keeps me sane, makes me happy and encourages me to keep on with this profession. Have a great day.
Yeah, I know a few old school Officers that detest the LE moniker as well

Several quit, they saw themselves as keeping peace, not enforcing laws

Things started going south in the late 80s when liberal States began passing mandates on police that any time they responded to a domestic somebody had to get a DV and go to the crowbar hotel.
That's not keeping the peace
1st responders need a degree of latitude

Men and wimmins yelling at each other is not really an abnormal thing and for every woman saved from an abusive Man there were likely over a dozen Men screwed over by these mandates.
Classic !
Guy I knew was an OTR Tucker. Came home after a long haul, gal sneeks up, cracks him in the skull with a cast iron Griswold frying pan and he breaks her nose. He ended up with nearly 30 stitches. They both ended up with DVs, went to jail and kiddos in Child protection.

How was society bettered by that shit ?
Cops were under a lesbian manufactured mandate
before all that they might have had one leave the house for the night
Shit I had an ex of mine take a shot at me with my 29' S&W, split her lower lip wide open over that excess. Right in my home.
If she wanted me dead I would be, it was all about getting my attention.

Thank you
Thank you indeed for admitting the reality that the profession really isn't all that dangerous.
In over TWENTY YEARS of service my own father never once drew his sidearm on another, neither did the vast majority of coworkers or the vast bulk of County and State officers.
Most of these Men were totally apathetic about guns, driving fast, etc. Just plain normal folks. They didn't enter into it as a career because they were all altruistic nor were they self styled John Mclains ala die Hard movie fame. It was just an easy career to get into, didn't require enormous intellect and passed on decent bennies

The killer kop mentality is very recent

Yeah, certain jurisdictions and duties can be extremely dangerous
being a deputy in most of rural podunk America ?
probably more dangerous being a clerk in the town convience store or being a bartender really.
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