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Old July 14, 2019, 20:22   #1
adam762
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The Italian Garand

Back in April I bought 5 beautiful Garand stocks for a song down at Knob Creek.
I thought I was king shyt until Chuck informed me that they were all Italian, and shorter, and unusable on standard Garands. Having never heard of Italian Garands before, I went back to the hotel to sooth my damaged ego and learn something.

Fast forward to the May OGCA show. I found a Beretta Garand down there at a reasonable price from a local guy ten miles down the road. Having learned a bunch about them since April, I think I need to have a few of those. VERY interesting footnote to the Garand history.

I knew nothing about them 6 months ago. They're not RARE, but they're not common either. I thought I'd post pics of proofs and parts for people who have never had one apart before.

Looks to me like there is a converted US op rod. You can see where the cut and weld was done. Also, the stock is Terni, not Beretta. Correct Beretta and Breda small parts but I do not recognize the barrel manufacturer.

I had thought of restoring it to factory new with some of the new wood I have here but I've decided not to. Too much soul in this one.

































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Old July 14, 2019, 20:33   #2
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Noice !

SIAU, is Societŗ Italia Acciai Ugine, or the Italian Society of Steel, Ugine. It was founded in 1930 as an Italian subsidiary of the French Ugine S.A.

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Old July 14, 2019, 20:50   #3
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The other part of this that you DID NOT MENTION is that these are .308 Garands (at least the ones that take the 1/2" shorter stock). The reason that they are 1/2" shorter is that when the Italians first started to make the conversion to 7.62X51 NATO what they did is take 30-06 barrels and cut 1/2 inch off the chamber end, recontouring and rethreading the barrel to fit the receiver - BUT as a .308 barrel. The difference between 30-06 and .308 is 1/2"

They then went on to make the BM59E with the detachable mag but using the Garand gas system.

The BM59 with the drop down gas system was a later development.
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Old July 14, 2019, 22:37   #4
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That op rod is an earlier T2-only op rod, the later ones are cut for the BM59E auto sear so they fit either rifle.
Beautiful rifle!

Eli
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Old July 15, 2019, 03:45   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ServiceRifle View Post
The other part of this that you DID NOT MENTION is that these are .308 Garands (at least the ones that take the 1/2" shorter stock). The reason that they are 1/2" shorter is that when the Italians first started to make the conversion to 7.62X51 NATO what they did is take 30-06 barrels and cut 1/2 inch off the chamber end, recontouring and rethreading the barrel to fit the receiver - BUT as a .308 barrel. The difference between 30-06 and .308 is 1/2"

They then went on to make the BM59E with the detachable mag but using the Garand gas system.

The BM59 with the drop down gas system was a later development.
I DID NOT MENTION it because other than the op rod (which I DID mention) this is not one of those. Sarco has those kits with modified barrels and op rods for $300. Iím going to build one. This is not a conversion but a factory built 308, therefore not worth mentioning the early conversions of American rifles.
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Old July 15, 2019, 06:30   #6
Tobias Took
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I think that is a Danish Contract Beretta. Note the Crown on the heel.

Very cool.

Last edited by Tobias Took; July 15, 2019 at 06:38.
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Old July 15, 2019, 07:15   #7
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I DID NOT MENTION it because other than the op rod (which I DID mention) this is not one of those. Sarco has those kits with modified barrels and op rods for $300. Iím going to build one. This is not a conversion but a factory built 308, therefore not worth mentioning the early conversions of American rifles.
Yes but, it would have been nice to mention in the OP WHY the stocks/rifles were shorter. For those of us who are either slow on the uptake, or too sorry to do our own research, And I thought you said you had FIVE stocks, so why build only ONE?
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Old July 15, 2019, 08:34   #8
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Looks like things turned out well after all!

The stocks are shorter because they are bm59 stocks.
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Old July 15, 2019, 08:40   #9
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Breda/Beretta also built a hand full of M1D's for the Dutch.
Everything including the scope was crown stamped or engraved.
Mine is original 3006,,,I dont think they ever did any in 762x51.

There were pics of mine in the photo section many moons ago, but their long gone now.
If there is any interest, I'll find the ambition and time to dig it out for a photo shoot.

Cheers, yv
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Old July 15, 2019, 09:04   #10
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Looks like things turned out well after all!

The stocks are shorter because they are bm59 stocks.


That's not true. You can't use a stock that is 1/2" shorter on a BM59. You CAN use these stocks on a BM59E - because they evolved from the cut down (at the chamber end) 30-06 barrels - converted to .308. The 1/2" difference is the difference between the 30-06 and .308 - and its needed because of how the Italians made the conversion to 7.62X51

The proof of the pudding is that I can take a standard length M1 Garand stock and convert it for direct use on a BM59 - by relieving the mag well area for a detachable mag, putting the two little dimples on the forearm for the bipod nubs, and relieving the BHO cutout area for the BM59 BHO device. That's all you need to do - I have done it a number of times. I have a Beretta BM59 sitting in a modified laminated M1 Garand stock right now.

You can't use a BM59E stock (which uses a Garand gas system) on a BM59 (which uses the proprietary Beretta drop down gas system) - UNLESS - you are woodcraftsman enough to ADD 1/2" of wood to the front of the stock. Conversely, you can't use a M1 Garand stock on a BM59E UNLESS you cut (and then reshape) 1/2" off the nose of the Garand stock.

Look at the second photo in my for sale thread for the M31 practice rifle grenades. The rifle in the picture is a Beretta BM59 in a laminated M1 Garand stock (the photo only shows the front end). This is a standard length M1 Garand stock modified for use on a BM59

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=443012

Last edited by ServiceRifle; July 15, 2019 at 10:08.
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Old July 15, 2019, 10:29   #11
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Quote:
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Looks like things turned out well after all!

The stocks are shorter because they are bm59 stocks.
Yes, I doubled down on the mistake and rather went down the rabbit hole. I am aware of the Danish contract and Iím sure thatís what this is. I think itís all Italian except for the T2 op rod. I wasnít trying to write a book or explain this models place in history. Itís just a photo documentary of a mostly original Italian Garand, because theyíre not super common and Iíve only ever seen one other such documentary. This isnít a kit built- the parts from Sarco will be the T2. I have 5 new old stock Italian stocks because Iím a dumbass and didnít know better when I bought them.

Geez. This is just a simple Ďhereís something you donít see everydayí thread.
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Old July 15, 2019, 13:00   #12
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Geez. This is just a simple Ďhereís something you donít see everydayí thread.
......well.......it was.......when it began........






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Old July 15, 2019, 14:21   #13
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Character is beautimus...
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Old July 15, 2019, 19:34   #14
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Cool

Quote:
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Yes, I doubled down on the mistake and rather went down the rabbit hole. I am aware of the Danish contract and Iím sure thatís what this is. I think itís all Italian except for the T2 op rod. I wasnít trying to write a book or explain this models place in history. Itís just a photo documentary of a mostly original Italian Garand, because theyíre not super common and Iíve only ever seen one other such documentary. This isnít a kit built- the parts from Sarco will be the T2. I have 5 new old stock Italian stocks because Iím a dumbass and didnít know better when I bought them.

Geez. This is just a simple Ďhereís something you donít see everydayí thread.
Didnít mean to derail, the question would be asked. Point is, it got you to a better place. That Italian job is a beauty. Iíd love to have one.

How much $$?? You forgot to post a price.
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Old July 15, 2019, 20:58   #15
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One of the more interesting Garands I've seen in pictures is an Italian Garand, made for Indonesia, in the Imperial War Museum collection. It was recovered by British forces that ambushed a group of Indonesian-backed guerillas in Borneo during the Indonesian Confrontation of the early-mid 1960s.
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Old July 18, 2019, 20:43   #16
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Post pics of the table you make using those short stocks as legs!!!!
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Old July 18, 2019, 20:52   #17
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I wasn't questioning whether it was factory built or not - only commenting on the fact that the reason the stocks are 1/2" shorter is because of the way the Italians started out making the conversion from 30-06 to 308. Since they started this way they continued to make factory (SIAU) barrels using the same profile (i.e. 1/2" shorter than a normal Garand barrel)




Quote:
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I DID NOT MENTION it because other than the op rod (which I DID mention) this is not one of those. Sarco has those kits with modified barrels and op rods for $300. Iím going to build one. This is not a conversion but a factory built 308, therefore not worth mentioning the early conversions of American rifles.
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Old July 18, 2019, 21:21   #18
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Bring it to KCR you can probably appeal to my lust for it and get me to surrender far too much cash
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Old July 18, 2019, 21:40   #19
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Bring it to KCR you can probably appeal to my lust for it and get me to surrender far too much cash
....why do you make it so easy on others yet whenever I try to sell you that bridge here in Sydney you are always too broke..???
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Old July 18, 2019, 22:06   #20
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What's with the caps when you're talking to someone? You guys need to get out more or something FFS. Adam, thank you for posting up pictures and for the background story - I enjoyed it. Ignore these types of bozos.

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Old July 21, 2019, 03:33   #21
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Very nice, and you right it's not something you see very often, cool factor "10"
Thanks For the pics.


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Old July 21, 2019, 12:10   #22
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I ABSOLUTELY LOVE it bro!!!! Especially these 2 pics, cudos to you. Now I would love to know where you got it & how much you paid for it, & if that kindly old gent down the road has another that he would sell to dear Ol' NSS!!!!
Seriously, that rifle is absolutely Beautiful, I am envious!!

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