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Old August 07, 2018, 18:21   #1
rowjimmy
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Food for Thought...

https://www.peakprosperity.com/podca...ise-rogue-food


"I'm not optimistic at all about where the government and all its bureaucracy is headed. It is getting more and more stifling. The Food Safety Modernization Act (FSMA) that Obama put through, it's absolutely stifling. It's size prejudicial. It's putting an inordinate price pressure on smaller producers. That's a fact all the way across the board. And the cost of compliance is escalating -- the amount of paperwork, the amount of licensing, the amount of testing and procedural stuff that's happening on farms -- is through the roof."

Crony capitalism acting under color of law at it's finest...
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Old August 07, 2018, 19:04   #2
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Sort of like being written up by the city to fix your house, then you need a permit and a license to fix your house. Then they appraise your house for a million dollars so you can pay the taxes on it.
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Old August 07, 2018, 19:34   #3
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Sort of like being written up by the city to fix your house, then you need a permit and a license to fix your house. Then they appraise your house for a million dollars so you can pay the taxes on it.
Upon having this type of realization, many men would become a libertarian...
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Old August 07, 2018, 19:47   #4
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Upon having this type of realization, many men would become a libertarian...
Where do you think money to pay for public schools and teachers comes from?
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Old August 07, 2018, 19:53   #5
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Where do you think money to pay for public schools and teachers comes from?
theft:

for-profit criminal business enterprise, working as intended.
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Old August 07, 2018, 20:01   #6
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If I protest my appraisal, they will send out property standards and write up my house. Then I will need a permit and a license to fix my house, so they can appraise it for more next year.

They will do this until I can't afford to live there any more. Then new people or investors with more money will come in and they'll do it to them, etc.
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Old August 07, 2018, 20:51   #7
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If I protest my appraisal, they will send out property standards and write up my house. Then I will need a permit and a license to fix my house, so they can appraise it for more next year.

They will do this until I can't afford to live there any more. Then new people or investors with more money will come in and they'll do it to them, etc.
City changed the liquor laws. I have 2 friends that started their own shops. One of them inadvertently received the license for a 3rd store that is Pakistani owned. You guessed it. Pakistani was only required to pay less than half of the fee my friends were required to pay. How does that shit work. They were mad as fug. Me too.
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Old August 07, 2018, 20:53   #8
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And Mother Earth News has an article at least twice a year in their rag that anyone can be totally self sufficient on one acre. Horse biscuits.

They claim you can have a cow, some chickens, a pig or two, mebee even some rabbits, a big garden, grow your own firewood or winter heating, and somewhere on that acre you can build a house too. I don't think there a two brain cells at that publication that get rubbed together to think things through. One acre won't feed a calf, much less a big cow. And what are these self sufficient gurus gonna feed their animals in the winter when nothing is growing?

I know grass fed beef is supposed to be the "in" thing, but there ain't enough range grass in this country to take the tonnage of beef to butcher weight to supply the protein demand we have in this country. Grass fed beef is a niche market and I don't see it ever supplying this country with enough beef to keep up with consumption.
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Old August 07, 2018, 21:18   #9
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If I protest my appraisal, they will send out property standards and write up my house. Then I will need a permit and a license to fix my house, so they can appraise it for more next year.

They will do this until I can't afford to live there any more. Then new people or investors with more money will come in and they'll do it to them, etc.
And, Martin thinks the .gov is the answer to all of this.



Good posts, Mebs - you are spot-on with your observations.

Keep going.

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Old August 07, 2018, 21:24   #10
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If I protest my appraisal, they will send out property standards and write up my house. Then I will need a permit and a license to fix my house, so they can appraise it for more next year.

They will do this until I can't afford to live there any more. Then new people or investors with more money will come in and they'll do it to them, etc.
Yep, its a racket!
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Old August 07, 2018, 23:12   #11
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Living it right now Mebs
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Old August 07, 2018, 23:41   #12
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And, Martin thinks the .gov is the answer to all of this.



Good posts, Mebs - you are spot-on with your observations.

Keep going.

if "more state" is the answer,

then the wrong question is being answered.
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Old August 08, 2018, 08:32   #13
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Where do you think money to pay for public schools and teachers comes from?
Taxation! If you can read this, thank a teacher! If you can read it in English, thank a GI!

Wave that flag! Merica!!

You love paying taxes and stuff to the government Mebs, you're a tried and true republican who makes fun of libertarians, don't change now.

Taxes are necessary, it's part of the social contract!!

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theft:

for-profit criminal business enterprise, working as intended.
I think you meant extortion...they're willing to use violence without hesitation.
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Old August 08, 2018, 08:37   #14
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And Mother Earth News has an article at least twice a year in their rag that anyone can be totally self sufficient on one acre. Horse biscuits.

They claim you can have a cow, some chickens, a pig or two, mebee even some rabbits, a big garden, grow your own firewood or winter heating, and somewhere on that acre you can build a house too. I don't think there a two brain cells at that publication that get rubbed together to think things through. One acre won't feed a calf, much less a big cow. And what are these self sufficient gurus gonna feed their animals in the winter when nothing is growing?

I know grass fed beef is supposed to be the "in" thing, but there ain't enough range grass in this country to take the tonnage of beef to butcher weight to supply the protein demand we have in this country. Grass fed beef is a niche market and I don't see it ever supplying this country with enough beef to keep up with consumption.
These are valid points, perhaps we need to eat lower on the food chain to successfully support global population.

From your post, am I to gather you are pro Monsanto and big-agra business? Good with the practice of spraying glyphosate all over the green wheat to dry it out before its combined? An advocate of the conditions animals are kept in in CAFO's?
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Old August 08, 2018, 09:16   #15
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Taxation! If you can read this, thank a teacher! If you can read it in English, thank a GI!

Wave that flag! Merica!!

You love paying taxes and stuff to the government Mebs, you're a tried and true republican who makes fun of libertarians, don't change now.

Taxes are necessary, it's part of the social contract!!
You can't be a libertarian and work in the public sector. I think you're a secret Republican.

Besides, I haven't made fun libertarians since Ron Paul, and that's only because his followers were obnoxious and mean.
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Old August 08, 2018, 09:21   #16
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...
I think you meant extortion...they're willing to use violence without hesitation.
they do use aggression/violence, and thereby get people killed:

waco
ruby ridge


and more recently by proxy, in their state mandated gun free zones:


schools, for example --
blood bath of dead kids ?
thank a teacher.
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Old August 08, 2018, 09:32   #17
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You can't be a libertarian and work in the public sector. You're a Republican.
Shush...it's for the children...

But, I didn't create the monopoly that is education. I provide a necessary service and am compensated for it in a contractual relationship with my employer.

The market you work in is distorted by .gov in some way too, I guarantee it. Who did you vote for in the last three Presidential elections? I'll gladly say who I voted for and we can compare...

But, we're getting off topic. I was just giving a friendly jibe knowing your past political posts. In the past you have consistently made fun of libertarianism and advocated for statist republicanism. I have consistently advocated for freedom. Yet, here you are complaining about the very same big government YOU have voted for every time you've gone to the ballot box. It is not until the beast is breathing down our neck that we realize we failed to head the call of "wolf"...

No harm intended Mebs... I agree that the whole code/taxation/enforcement scheme is a money making racket and forces people out of their homes.
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Old August 08, 2018, 09:36   #18
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In the past you have consistently made fun of libertarianism and advocated for statist republicanism.
You deserved it.
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Old August 08, 2018, 10:03   #19
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These are valid points, perhaps we need to eat lower on the food chain to successfully support global population.

From your post, am I to gather you are pro Monsanto and big-agra business? Good with the practice of spraying glyphosate all over the green wheat to dry it out before its combined? An advocate of the conditions animals are kept in in CAFO's?
Yes, I did use glyphosate when I did farm, retired now. It was simply another chemical in the vast array that have been used by farmers for more than 75 years. Many of the long residual chems used were far more damaging to the “environment” than glyphosate. RU was not the only broad spectrum chemical available, there are numerous others, but Monsanto (now owned by Bayer) has the deepest pockets, hence a good target for groups like the Sierra club, er al.

We have one of the cheapest food policies of any nation on earth. This could not occur without the use of chemicals, and RU is just one of them (although a very popular one) but it is getting to be worthless on many weeds it once killed at the rates we use. Many weeds have become RU resistant. I guess they have performed their own genetic modification, so how is this different than the resistance we have bred into crops.

I wish we could raise grain crops (or any food crop) without chemicals, but weeds will take over any crop without their use, and there ain’t enough messicans to hand weed every crop acre. But self sufficiency is a pipe dream touted by greenies. Farmers only account for about 2% of the population, and much of the other 98% are clueless on all that is involved to get their food to the supermarket shelf, much less how to grow it on their own.
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Old August 08, 2018, 13:39   #20
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Good with the practice of spraying glyphosate all over the green wheat to dry it out before its combined?
Please stop spreading this misinformation. Farmers DO NOT spray glyphosate on wheat to dry it out before harvest. You would see tire tracks all through the field if they drove through it before harvest and knocked down the plants. If you've ever looked at a wheat field before harvest you would know that they are not doing this.

Also, it would be expensive (buying spray and applying it) and completely unnecessary. Wheat ripens just fine on its own.

More here:
http://kswheat.com/news/2014/11/18/t...undup-in-wheat
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Old August 08, 2018, 13:39   #21
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Yes, I did use glyphosate when I did farm, retired now. It was simply another chemical in the vast array that have been used by farmers for more than 75 years. Many of the long residual chems used were far more damaging to the “environment” than glyphosate. RU was not the only broad spectrum chemical available, there are numerous others, but Monsanto (now owned by Bayer) has the deepest pockets, hence a good target for groups like the Sierra club, er al.

We have one of the cheapest food policies of any nation on earth. This could not occur without the use of chemicals, and RU is just one of them (although a very popular one) but it is getting to be worthless on many weeds it once killed at the rates we use. Many were have become RU resistant. I guess they have performed their own genetic modification, so how is this different than the resistance we have bred into crops.

I wish we could raise grain crops (or any food crop) without chemicals, but weeds will take over any crop without their use, and there ain’t enough messicans to hand weed every crop acre. But self sufficiency is a pipe dream touted by greenies. Farmers only account for about 2% of the population, and much of the other 98% are clueless on all that is involved to get their food to the supermarket shelf, much less how to grow it on their own.
All natural, no chemicals means 75 to 90% of the earth population starves to death, which is the REAL goal of the greenies/environmental nut cases/whack jobbers.
They are so delusional to believe, they'd be left alive in the remaining group of survivors it's laughable.
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Old August 08, 2018, 15:42   #22
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Good with the practice of spraying glyphosate all over the green wheat to dry it out before its combined?
As mordean said, you've been reading Sierra club conspiracy leaflets. That doesn't happen, and so fugging what if it did. The glyphosate never gets on the wheat kernal, and is damn lucky to get a tiny droplet on each plant in order to kill it.

I have seen it done, but it wasn't for dessication of the wheat crop, it was for burn down and drying of the weeds that were taking over from an excessively wet late spring, letting the weeds take over.

Worry about something else while you keep your belly full of cheap food.
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Old August 08, 2018, 16:19   #23
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Worry about something else while you keep your belly full of cheap food.
In case you haven't noticed 'muricans's have been eating way too much of that cheap food. Perhaps more expensive food would trim down the waistlines and diabetes.

I bought some straw bales to temporally insulate some sewer pipe, then dumped the rotted hay in the garden. 5 years later that hay, apparently sprayed with Roundup won't allow me to grow a tomato or cuke that isn't mutated, ugly and taste terrible.
That stuff is far worse than you think.




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Old August 08, 2018, 17:40   #24
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In case you haven't noticed 'muricans's have been eating way too much of that cheap food. Perhaps more expensive food would trim down the waistlines and diabetes.

I bought some straw bales to temporally insulate some sewer pipe, then dumped the rotted hay in the garden. 5 years later that hay, apparently sprayed with Roundup won't allow me to grow a tomato or cuke that isn't mutated, ugly and taste terrible.

That stuff is far worse than you think.




.............juanni
I call BULLSHIT in the biggest way. If it was bad on the ground, farmers in these parts wouldn’t be able to grow squat, it’s used pretty liberally here for grasses. And as mentioned above, chances are slim to none it was even sprayed on the straw.

You have other issues. I’m guessing you have phenoxy carryover of some kind. Those are both broadleaf plants in your garden, RU very weak on broadleaves, better on grasses. That’s why GOD invented 2-4D and Dicamba.

ETA: RU goes inert as soon as it comes in contact with a clay base particle, it does not persist in the soil like some chemicals are designed to. Label rates only allow the use of 4 quarts actual per acre per year.
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Old August 08, 2018, 17:56   #25
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I call BULLSHIT in the biggest way. If it was bad on the ground, farmers in these parts wouldn’t be able to grow squat, it’s used pretty liberally here for grasses. And as mentioned above, chances are slim to none it was even sprayed on the straw.

You have other issues. I’m guessing you have phenoxy carrybiver of some kind. Those are both broadleaf plants in your garden, RU very weak on broadleaves, better on grasses. That’s why GOD invented 2-4D and Dicamba.

Yep. we plant corn and beans into cover crops like wheat to keep the wind from blowing the soil off the seed. Then kill the cover crop with Roundup... OMG!!!! The crops still grow just fine and so do the weeds
Roundup deactivates after 4 days in the soil, that's why my damn weeds keep coming back.

Oops was typing when you edited.
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Old August 08, 2018, 18:21   #26
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2 to 1 odds being given, tha farmers win over Juanni!
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Old August 08, 2018, 18:31   #27
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2 to 1 odds being given, tha farmers win over Juanni!
I know “j” is smarter than that, at least he leads most on here to think he is, but it never ceases to amaze me that people that have dick to do with agriculture think the know so damn much about it and how we can do it better.

J best stick to building his concrete fortresses for the Armageddon
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Old August 08, 2018, 19:56   #28
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I know “j” is smarter than that, at least he leads most on here to think he is, but it never ceases to amaze me that people that have dick to do with agriculture think the know so damn much about it and how we can do it better.

J best stick to building his concrete fortresses for the Armageddon
He'll be back with some internet dribble or another on how he now knows more than real life working farmers, having "read it on tha internet".

Or he'll fine someway to blame it on the yids.

I need to leave him be though, finally had enough and dust binned his ass a while back.



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Old August 09, 2018, 19:12   #29
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2 to 1 odds being given, tha farmers win over Juanni!


Umm,,, the grass farmer in the area that heavily uses herbicides REFUSES to sell straw to the locals for gardens because it mutates some of their veggies.

A MSU ag professor I showed pics of the curled up tomato leaves and deformed/rotted fruit said was from herbicide

Absolutely NOTHING has been added to my garden but manure, composted veggie leftovers, sand from the river and that straw.
Never sprayed ANYTHING near it and it grew toms and cukes great before adding the straw.

I know rational analysis doesn't carry much weight with many of you goofs, but what else could it be?




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Old August 09, 2018, 19:24   #30
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I call BULLSHIT in the biggest way. If it was bad on the ground, farmers in these parts wouldn’t be able to grow squat, it’s used pretty liberally here for grasses. And as mentioned above, chances are slim to none it was even sprayed on the straw.

You have other issues. I’m guessing you have phenoxy carryover of some kind. Those are both broadleaf plants in your garden, RU very weak on broadleaves, better on grasses. That’s why GOD invented 2-4D and Dicamba.

ETA: RU goes inert as soon as it comes in contact with a clay base particle, it does not persist in the soil like some chemicals are designed to. Label rates only allow the use of 4 quarts actual per acre per year.
I don't know for sure it was Roundup, that is why I stated apparently sprayed with Roundup

Rather than calling BS, a remedial reading course would be more useful.



...........juanni
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Old August 09, 2018, 20:12   #31
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I don't know for sure it was Roundup, that is why I stated apparently sprayed with Roundup

Rather than calling BS, a remedial reading course would be more useful.



...........juanni
Perhaps you should try a remedial course in farm chemicals and their effects?

Screaming "ROUNDUP/MONSANTO" doesn't show much intelligence with out some real proof of what happened. Hell, your straw bales could have generated some nasty mold or other pathogen while rotting, wrapped around your sewer pipe.
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Old August 09, 2018, 20:44   #32
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
I don't know for sure it was Roundup, that is why I stated apparently sprayed with Roundup

Rather than calling BS, a remedial reading course would be more useful.



...........juanni
Then what did this statement refer to?

“ that stuff is far worse than you think”

That “appears” to be a slam on RU. And I’m not the one that needs a remedial reading course there ace. For one that blames all this countries bad choices on everyone but yourself, how’s that crow tasting. I have never made a bad choice in chemical usage, it’s all you guys that are the problem.

If the local grass farmer (and grass is not the same as straw BTW) refuses to sell his grass bales to local gardener, I’ll lay 10-1 odds he’s spraying pasture chemicals, which is far different than most inter-crop chemicals. The most popular one being Grazon P&D or Grazon Next with the active ingredient Picloram and/or Tordon 22K. Both persist in soils for a long time?
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Old August 09, 2018, 20:50   #33
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Well, I was open to learning something from those of you in the agri business but this thread is turning into a "face palm, you're an idiot, let's pick on Juanni thread", which is unfortunate as I wasn't looking for argument but honest discussion.

RU is controversial for sure. According to Snopes, it IS used, by some, to dessicate wheat: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/grain-of-truth/

So, it's kind of intellectually dishonest to call it "perpetuating a lie." Of course, I'm sure you'll then claim "oh, Snopes is run by liberals", but if you read the linked article, it could hardly be construed as an indictment of Glyphosate.

I think of greater concern may be the GMO crops bred to be gyphosate resistant. Of course, if big, pesticide based agriculture is how you make a living, you might get a little defensive. There are legitimate concerns about the use of various chemical pesticides, especially given the relatively short track record of their use. Hell, benzene wasn't known to be a carcinogen decades ago.

Both my Uncle and Second Cousin dies from cancer, with no family history. Both served in Vietnam and were exposed to agent orange. My cousin was a highly decorated green beret. He was the real deal, a soft spoken and unassuming guy who had been there, done that. Point being, chemicals CAN have detrimental effects.

If you're off handedly dismissing the science and calling anyone that calls the use of chemical pesticides into question a "greenie" you're not much better than the idiot leftists. There are certainly flaws and bias in science, but it is a far more honest discipline than any of the others save mathematics.

The corruption of our government by corporations (big agra companies like Monsanto being only one) and the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto CEO's aside, we need to take an honest look at our food supply. The biggest factors influencing good health are diet and exercise, most of the ailments in America could be prevented with attention to these two things (genetics aside.) We are clearly failing as a country and you not what, it's not just the lack of exercise, it's the food. Now, a big part is processed food, which is high in sodium and unhealthy (as a general rule the less your food looks like it's natural form the worse it is for you.) But chemicals used to fertilize and serve as weed and insect abatement need to be considered as well. There are purportedly guys who work golf courses who have a higher cancer incidence (possibly from RU) than the general public. Hell, you all make fun of the metro sexual males and these gender confused kids, but Phthalates have estrogenic mimicking properties...think about the amount of plastic in our lives.

Certainly, there are those who cry "the sky is falling" over any chemical or compound and that is nonsense. Hell, arsenic is a poison but there is evidence your body needs some and uses it as a micronutrient...yeah, that damn science and those greenies again... But to blindly accept that any chemical is without possible serious side effects is foolhardy.

But, you make a good case in regard to feeding the global population without the given fertilizers and pesticides. This is worthy of consideration and has likely led to our exceptional population growth.

However, there are those who practice more sustainable methods who present pretty convincing arguments that things could be more centralized and localized and yield similar results.

Are you familiar with the state of the Ogallala Aquifer and it's projected state? So, how depleted is the soil in the great plains?How much top soil do we have and what is the quality?


I'd like to keep this civil, for there is much I don't know about farming, but there is also much that you guys may not know.
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Old August 09, 2018, 20:57   #34
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You deserved it.
Probably.
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Old August 09, 2018, 21:15   #35
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So far, the farmers are winning on all levels!
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Old August 09, 2018, 21:49   #36
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Well, I was open to learning something from those of you in the agri business but this thread is turning into a "face palm, you're an idiot, let's pick on Juanni thread", which is unfortunate as I wasn't looking for argument but honest discussion.

RU is controversial for sure. According to Snopes, it IS used, by some, to dessicate wheat: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/grain-of-truth/

So, it's kind of intellectually dishonest to call it "perpetuating a lie." Of course, I'm sure you'll then claim "oh, Snopes is run by liberals", but if you read the linked article, it could hardly be construed as an indictment of Glyphosate.

I think of greater concern may be the GMO crops bred to be gyphosate resistant. Of course, if big, pesticide based agriculture is how you make a living, you might get a little defensive. There are legitimate concerns about the use of various chemical pesticides, especially given the relatively short track record of their use. Hell, benzene wasn't known to be a carcinogen decades ago.

Both my Uncle and Second Cousin dies from cancer, with no family history. Both served in Vietnam and were exposed to agent orange. My cousin was a highly decorated green beret. He was the real deal, a soft spoken and unassuming guy who had been there, done that. Point being, chemicals CAN have detrimental effects.

If you're off handedly dismissing the science and calling anyone that calls the use of chemical pesticides into question a "greenie" you're not much better than the idiot leftists. There are certainly flaws and bias in science, but it is a far more honest discipline than any of the others save mathematics.

The corruption of our government by corporations (big agra companies like Monsanto being only one) and the revolving door between the FDA and Monsanto CEO's aside, we need to take an honest look at our food supply. The biggest factors influencing good health are diet and exercise, most of the ailments in America could be prevented with attention to these two things (genetics aside.) We are clearly failing as a country and you not what, it's not just the lack of exercise, it's the food. Now, a big part is processed food, which is high in sodium and unhealthy (as a general rule the less your food looks like it's natural form the worse it is for you.) But chemicals used to fertilize and serve as weed and insect abatement need to be considered as well. There are purportedly guys who work golf courses who have a higher cancer incidence (possibly from RU) than the general public. Hell, you all make fun of the metro sexual males and these gender confused kids, but Phthalates have estrogenic mimicking properties...think about the amount of plastic in our lives.

Certainly, there are those who cry "the sky is falling" over any chemical or compound and that is nonsense. Hell, arsenic is a poison but there is evidence your body needs some and uses it as a micronutrient...yeah, that damn science and those greenies again... But to blindly accept that any chemical is without possible serious side effects is foolhardy.

But, you make a good case in regard to feeding the global population without the given fertilizers and pesticides. This is worthy of consideration and has likely led to our exceptional population growth.

However, there are those who practice more sustainable methods who present pretty convincing arguments that things could be more centralized and localized and yield similar results.

Are you familiar with the state of the Ogallala Aquifer and it's projected state? So, how depleted is the soil in the great plains?How much top soil do we have and what is the quality?


I'd like to keep this civil, for there is much I don't know about farming, but there is also much that you guys may not know.
RJ, have you ever visited a large organic farm operation? I have... Three of them, growing everything from sweet corn to potatoes. The sweet corn is stunted producing only 2 ears per stalk vs 4-5 in non organic fields, half that is eaten up by various bugs. Same thing with potatoes. Dry beans and peas seem to do a little better, but not much. I guess organic crops are great for feeding the bugs mostly.

It's really strange how a few properly applied chemicals can double or triple yields of foodstuffs.
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Old August 09, 2018, 22:00   #37
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RJ, have you ever visited a large organic farm operation? I have... Three of them, growing everything from sweet corn to potatoes. The sweet corn is stunted producing only 2 ears per stalk vs 4-5 in non organic fields, half that is eaten up by various bugs. Same thing with potatoes. Dry beans and peas seem to do a little better, but not much. I guess organic crops are great for feeding the bugs mostly.

It's really strange how a few properly applied chemicals can double or triple yields of foodstuffs.
Funny you mention that about the bugs. I heard a comment from a "organic" grower one time stating the exact same thing. Their logic is that the bugs won't always eat it all, they leave some for us.

Yeah, that's the way to feed a hungry population.
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Old August 09, 2018, 22:29   #38
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Funny you mention that about the bugs. I heard a comment from a "organic" grower one time stating the exact same thing. Their logic is that the bugs won't always eat it all, they leave some for us.

Yeah, that's the way to feed a hungry population.
I dunno, I don't get it, 45 bushel organic wheat... Irrigated! When they should be getting 135-140 bushels, and not tearing the guts out of the combine trying to thrash huge green weeds. But these guys claim the money for the organic label is worth it.
I've also heard certain organics are worse than conventional crops due to the fact they will produce their own insecticides when the bugs attack. Mostly nicotine type compounds that stay with the plant until consumption.
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Old August 09, 2018, 23:40   #39
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Well, I was open to learning something from those of you in the agri business but this thread is turning into a "face palm, you're an idiot, let's pick on Juanni thread", which is unfortunate as I wasn't looking for argument but honest discussion.


Are you familiar with the state of the Ogallala Aquifer and it's projected state? So, how depleted is the soil in the great plains?How much top soil do we have and what is the quality?


I'd like to keep this civil, for there is much I don't know about farming, but there is also much that you guys may not know.
RJ,

OK, we strayed, I'll admit that, but the j-man deserves every dick slap and face palm he gets. He can dish them out, but he "apparently" (this term only seems to have meaning if he uses it) can't take it. This is the guy that plays Mr. Wizard on anything political, and advises everyone else they don't know shit. But, I digress.

If you go back and re-read this thread, you were the first to mention anything about RU or Monsanto.

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Originally Posted by rowjimmy View Post
These are valid points, perhaps we need to eat lower on the food chain to successfully support global population.

From your post, am I to gather you are pro Monsanto and big-agra business? Good with the practice of spraying glyphosate all over the green wheat to dry it out before its combined? An advocate of the conditions animals are kept in in CAFO's?

Previous to this, it was only an argument on the ridiculous rules and regs placed on Ag, putting unneeded costs on the smaller producers.

And, no, I don't put much credibility in snopes. There may be controversy about RU, hell gun owners are controversial to the liberals of this country. But it does seem that them that know so little pretend to know so much. Years ago, the pink packets of sugar substitute (saccharin) was proven beyond the shadow of a doubt to cause cancer. Oops. they made a mistake. Now that Monsanto came along with Aspartame, they go after them. If we believed everything we hear on da innerwebs, we wouldn't be eating anything, and the only safe thing to drink is Maker's Mark. I'd always heard that for every beer ya drink, a brain cell dies. I shouldn't have any left after my high school and college life, so I guess the two I have left is allowing me to make semi lucid comments in a public forum.

I'll make a bold statement here; I know damn little about Ag chemicals - - - - - - - anymore. There is so much new chemistry being brought into use each year, it almost takes a PhD to keep up. RU has been and remains one of THE MOST popular non-selective herbicides ever developed. Had it been developed by a mom and pop chemical lab, little would be talked about dangers, because deep pockets cause controversy.

RU has become almost worthless on about any broadleaf plant. It was never developed for them. I was developed as a grass herbicide, but discovered in the lab to kill everything - - - - -at least then it did. Many broadleaves have developed resistance to RU, and at the rates we can afford to pay, even at $10/gal, it is basically worthless. And again I'll ask, what is the difference in weeds doing their own genetic modification vs. man doing it a little faster? Syngenta was the first to come out with soybeans that one can spray dicamba over the top to kill these RU resistant broadleaves. Killing broadleaf weeds in a broadleaf crop(soybeans) has heretofor been impossible. This new chemistry has created many bitter enemies of neighboring farmers. Those that chose not to "feed BIGCHEM" and planted RU only beans got millions of acres drifted on by neighbors miles away spraying dicamba. To add fuel to the fire, if you plant dicamba resistant soys, and spray over the top with dicamba, you must follow the label and use the special formulation the chem companies make for low volatility/low drift, costing the farmer about 3 times as much per acre as standard formulation dicamba. Trust me, it it still drifts. The reason the force this use is the liability costs if drift damages any susceptible crops. Spray off label, go to jail, or pay a huge fine. Or just pay triple the cost so the chem company can build up a war chest in case it is needed.

And it still happens, they have developed 2-4D resistant cotton, dicamba and 2-4D resistant soybeans, Liberty resistant corn and soybeans, etc. Problems is, 2-4d drift will kill dicamba resistant anything, the same is true reversing the two, RU kills Liberty resistant corn/beans, and Liberty will kill RU corn/beans. It's really fun out there.

Our food supply is not in jeopardy by the producer. I honestly feel the bigger concern over food safety is the processors who handle, process, and package the food after it leaves the farm. It's a general concensus that about 2% of this country's population are in the job of agricultural production, that's about 6 million people. The list narrows exponentially in those involved in the processing and packaging of same. A mistake by just one can make tens of thousands of people ill, and I think you have been witness to this fact in the past, and it will continue to happen.

Coincidentally, I'll guess 95% or more of the RU sprayed is not sprayed on the food that humans consume. There is not that much wheat dessicated with RU, it dries down quite well on it's own. Are there a few cases where it is done, hell yes. Some farmers will do whatever it takes to save the crop. But it is not done on a widespread scale, despite what snopes says. Almost all field corn is fed to livestock, over 70% actually goes to the chicken industry, most of the rest to swine and beef. The soybean stream is predominantly used as a protein source for the lower protein corn/sorghum grains based feed rations for livestock. As far as I know THERE IS NO RU Jolly Green Giant anything. That market doesn't justify the research, they still use the old chemistries of the Atrazines, sulfonylurea, and other "harmless" chemicals. Harmless because the MSM and the Sierra club have given up fighting it, because the new bogey-company Monsanto gained notoriety. By the way, it's no longer Monsanto, it's now Bayer. Yeah, the old aspirin people, the good guys because the have something good for humans. They now own and control a huge block of seed genomes in agriculture (yeah, they own the technology in the seed, thus the seed itself. Ya can't even legally save back seed for planting for yourself). And Bayer is second only to Syngenta.

Yes, I agree a big culprit in our health in this country is processed food. But whether that same food is grown with manmade fertilizer or something we are told is organic is immaterial. A plant's roots cannot tell the difference. "Nitrogen" is "Nitrogen" to them, regardless of the source. And I don't want to make this post any longer than I need to, but manmade "N" is not the dangerous thing most people are led to believe. It is manufactured using the Haber-Bosch process, yeah, some more Germans invented it, actually invented to make bombs in WWII. Nonetheless, natural gas is only used as a heat source, it is the N1(that should be a little 1) from the same air you breathe every day. The air you breathe is made up of about 78% N1, plants can only metabolize N2. Through the above process, the Nitrogen you breathe is converted to N2, usable by a plant. This "N" and "N" from cow pee, and whatever other source organic people use is all the same underground to a plant.

Yes, I am aware of the Ogallala aquifer and it's issues. I was an irrigation engineer in western Kansas in the late 70's. Most were pumping from static water depths of about 60-80' then. I don't know for sure, I've been out of it for eons, but I know static depth is likely much lower now. This just adds costs pulling it out of the ground, but they will continue to do so until diminishing returns mandates it discontinuance. When that happens, much of western Kansas and big parts of Nebraska will become a desert if n ot returned to native grasses.

I'm tired, this old man is going to bed. I hope this helps, and I tried to be civil.
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Old August 10, 2018, 09:38   #40
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And Mother Earth News has an article at least twice a year in their rag that anyone can be totally self sufficient on one acre. Horse biscuits.

They claim you can have a cow, some chickens, a pig or two, mebee even some rabbits, a big garden, grow your own firewood or winter heating, and somewhere on that acre you can build a house too. I don't think there a two brain cells at that publication that get rubbed together to think things through. One acre won't feed a calf, much less a big cow. And what are these self sufficient gurus gonna feed their animals in the winter when nothing is growing?

I know grass fed beef is supposed to be the "in" thing, but there ain't enough range grass in this country to take the tonnage of beef to butcher weight to supply the protein demand we have in this country. Grass fed beef is a niche market and I don't see it ever supplying this country with enough beef to keep up with consumption.
I don't follow MEN these days but back in the 70s they never made any such claim as crazy as being independent on a mere acre. I quit following them shortly after Shuttleworth sold out and the magazine became an advertising platform for some New York management firm.

That said it don't take a huge amount of land to keep a family fed, our ancestor proved that rather well. As little as 5 acres will do it. That's room for a couple Beef, a Hog pen, Chicken run and a sizable garden plus fruit and/or Nut trees.

Some of the old Menonite farmsteads in southern Manitoba were roughly ten acres. Interesting set ups. The barn was built onto the House which served to assist with heating the home though the stench had to be just awful. Five acres was seen as just enough hay to harvest and put up to feed the cattle over the winter, hogs ate garbage, chickens were fed bartered grain. Their gardens were HUGE, couple acres generally.

Same same in the Dakotas
The old family farm was sizable but 99% of the acreage was sowed in wheat, barley or Rye. Maybe ten acres tops fed the family, ten youngsters, the parents, a few hired Men and the oldsters. They lived that way well into the early 1970s

Homesteads here in Northern MN, same deal

that said I mostly agree with you on chemicals
North Dakota had so-called Bonanza farms in the Red River Valley back in the late 19th century. Just HUGE operations, some employing hundreds of workers but when you look at yields be acre, well it wasn't good at all.

You brought up how folks don't understand agriculture, well most farmers these days don't have a solitary clue how hard it used to be
It was an outright roll of the dice year to year.
My great great grandfather homesteaded up near Detroit Lakes MN after the War between the States. They had like four great years then two or three years of Locust. Family moved to Mandan ND in the mid 1870s and took what little cash they still had and opened a Dray service hauling goods between Fort Abraham Lincoln to the new Gold Fields in Deadwood South Dakota so they could start over in the 1880s in Towner County to the north.

Have 3 cousins that rank among the top 20 of North Dakota farmers. They all have business and agriculture degrees. They just roll eyes at "Organics" and "Grass Fed" horseshit. It's just not a workable agricultural business model. One of my late Uncles was so huge he maintained a private airfield and two personal elevators. Used to work for him summers. So yeah, I have a fair handle on Agribiz. Saying all that my Auntie Belle had Swine, Beef, Chickens, Geese, an orchard and about an acre of garden that was supplimented by Deer, Moose, Duck, Grouse, Canadian Geese, game fish. They didn't buy much at the grocery store, no indeed my friend.

Again, that was largely done on maybe five acres around the main house
And she refused to use poison on her garden which was always extremely productive. Hell, her son gave me all the canning crap. His prissy Banker's daughter wife unit buys EVERYTHING, turned the huge assed root cellar into a Fort for her boys.

Hippie Hobby Farm dreams aside our ancestors survived well on very small acreage. A family simply was unable to handle keeping say 40 acres under the plow with a team of Oxen and a single tine black smithed plow out on the frontier.
I grew up around old folks telling me about these things
not a one of them had any romance about it
Funny story
Grand Dad used to pick up Sad Irons for Grand Ma.
nope it wasn't because she thought they were some how "cute"
he did it just to irritate her, she absolutely loathed the things
old bastard used to bring home washboards for her too
I don't know which pissed her off more
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Old August 10, 2018, 10:16   #41
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Farmer vs Big Agricon!?!?!?! The whole pesticide thing is just extraction of money, by lobby and an argued scientific idea that has become systemic. The old ways of crop rotation are proven to be sustainable - the rest is logistics and legalities. Food and it's production is just one thing we've relinquished to others, as has the acquisition of fuel, and housing - all legally restricted for the benefit of the new Food Producers, and the controllers of the energy and shelter - who take loans, from those who are only too willing to foreclose, and conglomerate. Then there's all those filibustering corporations stealing Islands, and creating Banana rethuglicates....... The little farmer is being squished out, and has been for ages!
The same with the sole propriety high street store, replaced with the supermarket/depot store, then they too, replaced by Internet stores - what is achieved? Progress become a trap - belief sourced from false voices, paid for, to become the consensus/normalcy - then ridicule any opposition, monopolies rule!
Farmer suicide rates -

https://www.google.com/search?
client=safari&rls=en&q=farmer+suicide+rates&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Big Agricon want a monopoly, and they and their financiers, are working towards that, quietly! Think big! - Think Globally?
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Old August 10, 2018, 10:21   #42
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That said it don't take a huge amount of land to keep a family fed, our ancestor proved that rather well. As little as 5 acres will do it. That's room for a couple Beef, a Hog pen, Chicken run and a sizable garden plus fruit and/or Nut trees.
I can go along with the 5 acre providing sufficient supplies for a family. problem is, no one wants to do it. Our ancestors from yesteryear had no choice. If they wanted to remain among the living, they got by with what they could produce. But, diets were limited to what they could grow, raise, eat fresh, or store for future use. And they would be almost devoid of any citrus year around nor fresh produce, ie. lettuce, cabbage, etc., anything that doesn't can well.

The normal soccer mom is clueless on the logistics of getting all that stuff she picks off the store shelf to put in her cart to feed her family. The food we purchase at any store is said to have traveled an average of 1200 miles to get there.

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that said I mostly agree with you on chemicals
Not much explanation of why you disagree

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Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
You brought up how folks don't understand agriculture, well most farmers these days don't have a solitary clue how hard it used to be
It was an outright roll of the dice year to year.
Yes, federal crop insurance has certainly taken a lot of the pain and risk from production losses fo shizzle.


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Have 3 cousins that rank among the top 20 of North Dakota farmers. They all have business and agriculture degrees.
Better be careful of divulging details of your family. J man will accuse them of being welfare rats, taking all that federal subsidy money handed like candy to farmers.
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And she refused to use poison on her garden which was always extremely productive. Hell, her son gave me all the canning crap.
As was our garden while growing up on the farm from the 60's. But I'll say this about weeds. We didn't use the chemicals then we do today, not even on dad's or grampa's wheat hay crops. But we had a fraction of the weed issues in the garden we have today. I can't explain this phenomenon, but weed pressure is far worse everywhere than it was 50 years ago. Go figger.
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Hippie Hobby Farm dreams aside our ancestors survived well on very small acreage. A family simply was unable to handle keeping say 40 acres under the plow with a team of Oxen and a single tine black smithed plow out on the frontier.
I grew up around old folks telling me about these things
not a one of them had any romance about it
Bizzactly, it wasn't a bowl of cherries, it was work. Precisely the reason this will never take place with the society we have bred today, where someone else provides for nearly everything they need to exist. All they have to do is pull out the plastic and buy it.
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Old August 10, 2018, 13:23   #43
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Then what did this statement refer to?

“ that stuff is far worse than you think”

That “appears” to be a slam on RU. And I’m not the one that needs a remedial reading course there ace. For one that blames all this countries bad choices on everyone but yourself, how’s that crow tasting. I have never made a bad choice in chemical usage, it’s all you guys that are the problem.

If the local grass farmer (and grass is not the same as straw BTW) refuses to sell his grass bales to local gardener, I’ll lay 10-1 odds he’s spraying pasture chemicals, which is far different than most inter-crop chemicals. The most popular one being Grazon P&D or Grazon Next with the active ingredient Picloram and/or Tordon 22K. Both persist in soils for a long time?
"that stuff " meaning farm chemicals.

The Ag professor said tomatoes in particular are very intolerant of herbicides, like RU.
She didn't say it was RU and either did I.

Whatever it is, it came from the straw, it is now in the soil and doesn't look like it will become inert anytime soon.
I guess you just can't see the significance of 3-4 bales of semi rotted straw mulched into a 1000 sq ft garden and 5 years later, 4 years of crops and 1 year fallow the soil is still contaminated and deforming/killing some of the veggies.

>IF< Grazon something that contaminating of crops, , manure, soil and groundwater shouldn't be made.






................juanni
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Old August 10, 2018, 15:39   #44
okiefarmer
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
"that stuff " meaning farm chemicals.

The Ag professor said tomatoes in particular are very intolerant of herbicides, like RU.
She didn't say it was RU and either did I.

Whatever it is, it came from the straw, it is now in the soil and doesn't look like it will become inert anytime soon.
I guess you just can't see the significance of 3-4 bales of semi rotted straw mulched into a 1000 sq ft garden and 5 years later, 4 years of crops and 1 year fallow the soil is still contaminated and deforming/killing some of the veggies.

>IF< Grazon something that contaminating of crops, , manure, soil and groundwater shouldn't be made.

................juanni
Nice waffling there j, but I'll let it pass. There was no mention of anything other than RU in your comment, so I don't know how anyone else could infer "that stuff" meant anything other than RU. No matter, I assure you, your issue with your 'maters' ain't from RU. I spray it in my garden(in growing crops) with very course nozzles, and no wind down, in the middle of rows to cut down on weeding. I do this when I don't get around to mulching.

Like another poster stated, tomatoes are super sensitive to the phenoxys, and the most people know that one could almost stand amongst a bunch of tomato plants and whisper the word, 2-4D, and the plant's leaves would curl.

And yes I do understand the significance of decomposed materials in the soil, but I guess you don't understand anything about no-till farming then with that comment. That is what we no-tiller strive for is all that plant material to decompose and go back in the soil ad organic matter. The old plow or disc, despite what your perfesser told you, doesn't add organic matter to the soil when we worked it in. All decomposition take place in the top 3/4" of the soil profile. Decomposition is an aerobic process. Plowing it down 6 to 8"deep becomes anaerobic, the plant material only turns to carbon, and it ain't the same as aerobic decomposition. No tillers, at least in my neck of the woods, are striving to return the organic matter levels to near 4 or 5%, where they were before the plow broke the first plains soils out around statehood. Many are down below 2% from years of the plow.

You are not enlightening me on anything about soils you think I don't know. Wife unit and I moved to a small acreage here in the city (not at the farm, I rent those out) and I have been dumping all my chippings from the tree and brush clearings I'm doing here, onto the garden, instead of burning it. It works on a small scale basis, but we couldn't do this to thousands of acres, just not feasible.

I hope ye get your chemical issues cleared up, but I assure you it isn't RU that is causing it. I even doubt it is carryover of 2-4D, the half-life of these chems just ain't that long, they do not persist in soils. If they did, we couldn't plant soybeans after spraying the previous grass crop (wheat, corn, sorghum) with 2-4D. The wait period for the pre-emerge chemicals we use for another cop to follow is typically only 6-8 months. I think you need to look elsewhere for you stunting issues.

My two pesos
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Old August 10, 2018, 16:10   #45
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Originally Posted by okiefarmer View Post
I can go along with the 5 acre providing sufficient supplies for a family. problem is, no one wants to do it. Our ancestors from yesteryear had no choice. If they wanted to remain among the living, they got by with what they could produce. But, diets were limited to what they could grow, raise, eat fresh, or store for future use. And they would be almost devoid of any citrus year around nor fresh produce, ie. lettuce, cabbage, etc., anything that doesn't can well.

The normal soccer mom is clueless on the logistics of getting all that stuff she picks off the store shelf to put in her cart to feed her family. The food we purchase at any store is said to have traveled an average of 1200 miles to get there.



Not much explanation of why you disagree


Yes, federal crop insurance has certainly taken a lot of the pain and risk from production losses fo shizzle.



Better be careful of divulging details of your family. J man will accuse them of being welfare rats, taking all that federal subsidy money handed like candy to farmers.

As was our garden while growing up on the farm from the 60's. But I'll say this about weeds. We didn't use the chemicals then we do today, not even on dad's or grampa's wheat hay crops. But we had a fraction of the weed issues in the garden we have today. I can't explain this phenomenon, but weed pressure is far worse everywhere than it was 50 years ago. Go figger.

Bizzactly, it wasn't a bowl of cherries, it was work. Precisely the reason this will never take place with the society we have bred today, where someone else provides for nearly everything they need to exist. All they have to do is pull out the plastic and buy it.
I'll disagree that "no one wants to do it" but they are few and far between these days. It's crazy, I stepped out for a bit after I posted to hit some local yard sales. One old couple had just piles of boxes of the old aqua blue Ball Mason and Atlas canning jars with the clamp down glass lids for FREE
Even a mess of new old stock seals. Figure on close to 100 quart jars. I use them for pickled eggs, pickled mushrooms, whatnot
There were nice old school hoes, rakes and shovels for free...yeah I cleaned up and like they said they already had 50 plus customers and no interest. Picked up a couple meat grinders, a Corona hand mill, a Vitamix...couple boxes of vintage kitchen tools. Total came to $12.00

I figured we would see eye to eye on the Five Acre homestead. That's doable with no motorized assistance. Much more than that really is not unless the wife unit is popping out babies every year. Farm gals I grew up around were hard little bitches, Dad had them driving Tractor well before they were even in their teens. mind you I'm talking 1960s and 70s. You would see them out in the field in a bikini covered in dirt, nothing girly about those gals whatsoever. Still a few families like that up here too.

There are still a bunch of the original Back to the Land movement folks in Northern MN. Old School Hippies. They grew & still grow or hunt or fish most of their edibles and for the most part live out in the boonies, I know several families still shitting in outhouses and reading by Aladdin lamps. Yeah 100% off grid. Most of them are devoutly religious, home school the youngsters, don't bother nary a soul but believe me, they are gunned up to hell and back.

I know it's hard to believe but there are many rural folks up here that have no fixed or tangible income. For example when I was prowling around Beltrami and Hubbard Counties there were couples that did things by the season. For example tapping Maples & Birch in the spring. Come summer they supplied leaches, nitecrawlers and minnow to resorts. Fall you picked Pine Cone, I was getting a hundred bucks a five gallon pail for clean firm Tamarack cone then later you could cut Balsam Boughs. Where do you think Xmas wreaths come from. Couples could easily fill a pick up bed with pruned boughs over the course of a day, that was like $400 bones easy in the early 90s last time I did it.
Anyways a family could stack up over ten grand easy cash money between spring & fall. Some could crack 20K, all about having a solid work ethic.
and no, nobody was paying taxes on that income. This is a pretty much hidden in plain sight lifestyle. Swamp & Bayou folks used to be the same way, still actually are somewhat. Some with those deep in the interior of Alaska or the Rockies, hell even Appalachia.

But I digress
I'm only sayin' there are tons of people out there that are mostly unseen. They don't read stupid magazines or watch the tube. They live it day to day and they expect no handouts, they loathe bringing government or most any other outsiders into their lives.

I do trash my cousins over suckling on the Tax Payers titties btw by taking major advantage of Government programs. See, turn about is totally fair play. I have done it too and been chastized by family over doing so
Are you familar with CRP ?
One of my best friends used to give me shit about my lifestyle. Well after Dad left him the family farm he just quit paying land tax for like 14 years.
His new wife, VP at a local bank worked up a deal with the State where he placed all 300 odd acres into CRP. Mary saved that farm from forfeiture. My Cousins have sizable tracts under CRP they use to counter balance the taxes on the airable farmland under plow

Crop Insurance is a very necessary evil. Your average farmer is just one bad freeze, heavy storm or hail away from bankruptcy without it

But then you have subsidies
Dairy is just notorious
The government buys up all surplus production to keep commodity costs inflated. Ex GF's little brother worked for the Ag dept in Missouri. They have old Salt mines they store Cheese in. Every day tons get drawn out and tossed. I'm sure you remember back in the 80s when the Fed decided to release Cheese to low income folks. In the upper midwest you could just walk in the local distribution point with no more than a piece of mail to show residence and they would give you a couple huge assed blocks of Commodity Cheese, couple large boxes of dried milk and sacks of Corn Meal.
I actually bought two 2nd hand fridges that were fully stocked at all times with Government Cheese

Of course farmers were all pissed up about this, eventually Congress shut it down but it was a Republican program to mitigate the wholesale wastage going on, Guess What, it still goes on.

If you want we can discuss MonSatan
I have no issues with the chemicals but I do have serious problems with GMOs. No not that they will make your boy grow a third eye or tits. My issue is those bastards putting in "test plots" knowing it will cross pollinate.
I worked a few projects contracting as an independant Monsanto rep maybe a decade back. My job was to contact farmers in the midwest and to convince them to join a teleconference with the corporation. Well, I speak farmer real well. Usually took a good twenty minute of phone to hook them but damn did I hear serious horror stories. As the corp owned the genetic patents on the GMOs Farmers became unable to retain seed from last years production unless they paid MonSatan. Two of my Cousins went through this horseshit

I was even offered a corporate level position, they had little luck bridging the void of their own creation but I really had zero interest in having some office in an Ivory Tower.

Now on the Chems, I mostly agree with you
thing is there was some heady BAD shit years ago
Back in the 50s we applied a nasty poison to our seed, forget what it was
So Ag decides to distribute this seed grain all over the ME & southern Asia
thing was a ton of it was ate directly, tens of thousands of slow agonizing deaths as a result. I'd have to ask dad on the particulars again but it was not a happy thing

yeah you are spot on regarding weed pressure then versus now
I had like 10 yards of 20 year old composted cow shit spread over my main garden two years ago...couldn't keep up with the broad leaf invasion that erupted. Have let it sit now for two years. Going to burn it off this fall, nail it hard with herbicides than tarp it off until next spring...for two years I have been reduced mostly to container gardening.

In the 60s my parents hauled in load after load of manure from the very same farm, very little broad leaf bullshit. I figure next spring I'll haul in another five or so yards of peat and have my buddy till it in deep with the tractor, maybe add some sand for drainage. This is all ancient Glacial lake bottom.

Damn broad leaves already choked out my berry beds last year, Asparagus didn't have a chance...sigh
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Old August 10, 2018, 16:16   #46
yellowhand
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Going to need far more than 5 acres here in Arizona!

My ten acres, would not feed one mangy old house cat, no matter what ya sprayed on it.
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Old August 10, 2018, 19:30   #47
Riversidesports
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Going to need far more than 5 acres here in Arizona!

My ten acres, would not feed one mangy old house cat, no matter what ya sprayed on it.
Told you before, the desert is no place to try to bunk up and survive friend

It could be doable with hundreds of people
The Hohokam once turned that desert verdant Green growing Maize, beans, squash, etc

Simple truth is 99% of Americans these days are unfit to survive even the Garden of Eden
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Old August 10, 2018, 20:04   #48
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Originally Posted by okiefarmer View Post
I hope ye get your chemical issues cleared up, but I assure you it isn't RU that is causing it. I even doubt it is carryover of 2-4D, the half-life of these chems just ain't that long, they do not persist in soils. If they did, we couldn't plant soybeans after spraying the previous grass crop (wheat, corn, sorghum) with 2-4D. The wait period for the pre-emerge chemicals we use for another cop to follow is typically only 6-8 months. I think you need to look elsewhere for you stunting issues.

My two pesos
In your zeal to shoot the messenger you have only amplified the message.

Doing a bit of reading about Grazon, it contaminates the crop, the soil, any animal that eats the crop, the manure produced from that animal, soil fertilized with that contaminated manure and any water runoff from that field...... for years.

So to get higher yields from chems, farmers have polluted the whole food chain including an organic fertilizer source that has been used since well, before Moses.





...............juanni
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Old August 10, 2018, 21:22   #49
okiefarmer
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Originally Posted by juanni View Post
In your zeal to shoot the messenger you have only amplified the message.

Doing a bit of reading about Grazon, it contaminates the crop, the soil, any animal that eats the crop, the manure produced from that animal, soil fertilized with that contaminated manure and any water runoff from that field...... for years.

So to get higher yields from chems, farmers have polluted the whole food chain including an organic fertilizer source that has been used since well, before Moses.
...............juanni
What a tool juanni. You really need to brush up on your Evelyn Woodskie's speed reading course. Nowhere in any of the above comments did I say anything you claim. I plainly stated Grazon (Picloram and Tordon 22K) do persist in the soils for longer periods. RU,2-4D, dicamba, etc, are short halflife chemicals and ARE NOT causing your issues. But no one around here spreads baled pasture grass on their gardens, we do our homework, unlike some we know of. Crop fodder from any other source is used all the time for gardens, it's as safe as that Palmolive dishwahing liquid that Madge used to soak her customers hands in.


The Grazon is only used on pastures and generally sprayed by licensed aerial applicators to prevent off target issues, as I said, it is a RESTRICTED USE pesticide. And, yes, we eat the cattle grazing that grass sprayed with Grazon, and unless you are raising your own beef, you are too. No, we are not polluting the food chain, nor a fertilizer source. Grass is not fertilizer, it can only turn into organic matter. Organic matter is only a soil amendment. Nitrogen and organic matter is like apples and oranges.

You really need to worry about something worth worrying about and quit being a dick about things.

ETA: Even pastures need to be sprayed each and every year with Grazon, as after this period, it is so weakened and depleted that weeds return each spring. It’s soil persistence is not in concentrations enough to do the job for which it’s applied. So, even the most “evil” of chemicals are harmless after a period of time, and it ain’t 5 years.
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Last edited by okiefarmer; August 10, 2018 at 21:56.
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Old August 10, 2018, 22:37   #50
yellowhand
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Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
Told you before, the desert is no place to try to bunk up and survive friend

It could be doable with hundreds of people
The Hohokam once turned that desert verdant Green growing Maize, beans, squash, etc

Simple truth is 99% of Americans these days are unfit to survive even the Garden of Eden
I only have to get past the first 90 days, got more than enough for 18 months, after that, can pretty much go anywhere, because the country would be nice and quiet by then.

Electrical goes off out this way, folks be dying en-mass inside a week from lack of water.
Won't be around long enough to starve.
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