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Old August 08, 2018, 20:46   #1
hkshooter
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AR trigger advice and...

PSA factory grunter. Lot's of crunch/slip/stop, big heavy let off. Sucks for just about everything but making noise.
I don't need a light target trigger but I would like a smooth crisp and predictable one. Advice? After market unit? Smith job?


And I need a sling. Nothing bulky, something to carry with that allows me to transition cleanly to a side arm, reholster the side arm, and get back on the rifle again. Rifle wears a CAR type Magpul butt.

Thanks for the advice.
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Old August 08, 2018, 20:48   #2
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Out of all the triggers I've tried, I like the LaRue MBT trigger the best. But everyone is different.
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Old August 08, 2018, 21:15   #3
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Order a JP 3.5 Enhanced Reliability Spring kit, swap out the springs then cycle trigger about 500 to 1,000 times manually while watching television to help the parts mesh together and should drop your trigger pull in half or close for $10. Other option is before take apart to put sing kit in cover all engagement surfaces such a sear to hammer notch and disconnector with old fashioned Crest toothpaste (not too much) and cycle about 50 to 100 times, remove, clean well and install spring kit. Use right lube, I like the stuff that comes from Kidd in a syringe on nice triggers and standard Lucas synthetic gun oil on milspec triggers.
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Old August 08, 2018, 23:06   #4
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I don't have one but people seem to like the QMS trigger, which I think is a standard trigger and hammer which they clean up.

https://algdefense.com/quality-mil-s...igger-qms.html

https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ALG-...-p/alg-qms.htm
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Old August 08, 2018, 23:25   #5
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Absolute best trigger for the $$$. If you shop around, you can find them for around $125. After a.few hundred rounds, the trigger breaks into feeling as nice as Geissele's more expensive offerings (but still a really nice and reliable set out of the package). Excellent customer service.as well.

https://geissele.com/geissele-2-stage-trigger.html
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Old August 09, 2018, 05:23   #6
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Don't know how nice of a trigger or your budget. Midway has there AR Stoner Enhanced trigger on sale for $35 at present, the ALG Defense Quality group for $49, ALG ACT for $69 amd Del-Ton two stage for $99. Then you can blow through $100 right up to $200 and $300 triggers. Quality of upper depends on upper it's going with for me. I don't put $250 triggers in $500 rifles. I pull the milspec, Square and hone all mating surfaces then put a spring kit in along with screw to take the creep out.

It's actually good to have a little travel as if trigger bounces off a stop the instant the sear breaks the momentum of your trigger finger hitting pulling against the stop will pull the shot. I do remove some creep but not all so there is time for the hammer to fall before I hit the trigger stop imparting inertia on the rifle. If you look around you can occasionally find the older Hiperfire 24's and 24e's on sale for under $100. Their new Hipertouch 24's are well over $200 and the old 24 series is about as good and actually better when buying less than half of original retail. They come with a set of hammer springs allowing you to set your pull weight from two to four pounds based on spring selection from the pack and is a very fast resetting single stage.

I like dual stage triggers on target rifles and varmint rifles but fighting and hunting give me a good clean, fast resetting single stage. If look at the USSOCOM Mk 12 Mod 0, Mod 1 and Mod H M4's built to give special ops and SPR/SDM's the ability to engage targets out to 800 meters and still be a dead solid reliable fighting rifle all have a single stage trigger. If can do withough it a week drop your trigger pack in the mail and send it to me. Will put on my Power Custom jig then square and hone all mating surfaces and mail it back. Drop a spring kit of choice in and call it done for ten bucks and a stamp.
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Old August 09, 2018, 05:56   #7
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Out of all the triggers I've tried, I like the LaRue MBT trigger the best. But everyone is different.
On sale till Christmas and a helluva bargain for a helluva trigger!
$87
Also a weekly chance to win a LaRue upper with purchase.
2-stage triggers are my preference, ymmv.

https://www.larue.com/products/larue...bt-2s-trigger/
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Old August 09, 2018, 06:05   #8
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Rock Riverís match trigger is real nice. $120. I use the old quick adjust GI slings.
Easy and quick to adjust from carry to prone shooting.
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Old August 09, 2018, 06:16   #9
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There's only one name when it comes to AR fire control groups (FCG) and that's Geissele. The best one for duty, home defense or combat is the Super Semi Automatic, (SSA) It's the semi-auto version of the FCG Bill made for the U.S. Army Special Forces. It's a two stage trigger which gives you a margin of safety when you're in a high adrenaline, high stress situation.

They cost more but are worth every penny.

For a sling check out the Proctor Sling also known as the Way Of The Gun sling.
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Old August 09, 2018, 08:53   #10
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On the cheaper end, the Right to Bear Arms nickel teflon coated triggers are pretty nice.

Get an MBT if you can afford it and want a 2-stage.
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Old August 09, 2018, 09:19   #11
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There's only one name when it comes to AR fire control groups (FCG) and that's Geissele. The best one for duty, home defense or combat is the Super Semi Automatic, (SSA) It's the semi-auto version of the FCG Bill made for the U.S. Army Special Forces. It's a two stage trigger which gives you a margin of safety when you're in a high adrenaline, high stress situation.

They cost more but are worth every penny.

For a sling check out the Proctor Sling also known as the Way Of The Gun sling.

I have the SSA-E and is a very nice trigger also have a couple of Palmetto enhanced triggers with JP springs which is hard to beat when you buy them for $29 on sale and I picked up a Palmetto 2 stage on sale for $99 which isn't to shabby I would like to know who makes it for them

Mark
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Old August 09, 2018, 10:02   #12
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Geissele, Proctor sling and a Vickers combat applications sling. Or you can go the fun ( and expensive) route and buy one of everything and see what you like best.
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Old August 09, 2018, 12:25   #13
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A solid 1,000 pulls will usually smooth out almost any problems.
For precision shooting, I prefer 2 stage triggers, but if you're shooting fast, it doesn't really matter
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Old August 09, 2018, 12:50   #14
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I've been very pleased with the Elfmann trigger in my 6.5 AR.
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Old August 09, 2018, 12:51   #15
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Rock River 2 stage trigger, Standard Vickers sling.

https://www.blueforcegear.com/vickers-sling



$.02



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Old August 09, 2018, 12:58   #16
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Have Timney, LMT, Rock River, Larue, Geissele, Elftmann, CMC, PSA(polished & plated), and heaven knows how many others. They all work pretty darned well. I would buy whichever one of them was the best price when I needed one.

Until the end of the year, the Larue's are going for $87. That is the best deal on any of the name triggers, right now. Don't be in a hurry, though, as Larue has been flooded with orders since announcing the price.

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Old August 09, 2018, 13:47   #17
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Old August 09, 2018, 18:48   #18
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Got a Geissele in my primary AR. It's nice. But if I could do it again I'd get a less expensive trigger and a few #10 cans of Mountain House for the same money.

I have a couple early PSA triggers in other rifles that are actually quite smooth. Then things changed with their triggers.
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Old August 09, 2018, 19:07   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Right Side Up View Post
Out of all the triggers I've tried, I like the LaRue MBT trigger the best. But everyone is different.
I donít 100% agree but I took your advice. They are very nice for 100 bucks. My only gripe is they are a little wide. But definitely solid for the price.
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Old August 09, 2018, 19:25   #20
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I donít 100% agree but I took your advice. They are very nice for 100 bucks. My only gripe is they are a little wide. But definitely solid for the price.

I didn't say it was "The Best". I said "I Liked It The Best".
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Old August 09, 2018, 19:37   #21
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Thanks for the input, fellas. Gives me lots to chew on.
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Old August 09, 2018, 20:52   #22
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I have a couple of Velocity Triggers. Comes preset with but, direct drop in, no issues.

https://velocitytriggers.com/product...rigger-curved/
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Old August 10, 2018, 05:49   #23
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I'm pretty happy with Velocity triggers in a couple of ARs. They sell a "steel case ammo" trigger and I have one in a 7.62X39 AR I like a lot. Also have one of their 3.5 lb. triggers in my PSA .308 AR. Geissele in my sho-nuff "presision" AR.
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Old August 10, 2018, 08:50   #24
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My credit card was just charged for the Larue I ordered some 6 weeks ago, so hopefully it's on the way.
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Old August 10, 2018, 11:04   #25
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A solid 1,000 pulls will usually smooth out almost any problems.
For precision shooting, I prefer 2 stage triggers, but if you're shooting fast, it doesn't really matter
What I try to tell most who come in wanting a custom trigger in a $379 AR with polymer lower and many with $449 bottom tier Smiths, Bushy's, DPMS, Del-Ton, etc. Can take one with lower removed and experience of doing it many times tweak trigger spring a bit by bending, put a tad of fine grit lapping compound on mating surfaces, use thumb to keep hammer from hitting front of receiver and cycle it about 100 times. Then clean, luricate and reassemble and they are stunned. Tell them run 500 rounds and it will get better along with muscle memory becoming accustomed to it.

Next is going with a trip across a stoning jig and spring kit. LGS charges $59 for me to do this for their clients and $69 with an adjustment to tune creep. Have built rifles with cheapest FCG could find, install in lower and measure trigger pull after lubricating and cycling a few times then after cycling several hundred times and watched trigger pull gauge slowly drop in measurment. I can accelerate the meshing of parts using some lapping compound from profession grade compounds like Clover and household items like toothpaste.

Was raised up at early age by a group of mentors (game warden & competative Bullseye shooter plus others) that said a gun was not ready for carry/defensive use till owner had minimum of 500 rounds of various ammo through it. First reason is to make sure it's functioning correctly and which ammo it likes. Second is to make sure all parts have been properly broken in and meshed in their interaction with each other. Lastly to give owner muscle memory unconscious ability to operate controls and know what gun feels like instinctively.

Have over two dozen two stage triggers as well as many more single stage and almost a couple dozen binary triggers at this point. Unless a rifle gets a high dollar custom barrel or is specifically built for a specialty combat role I put milspec triggers in most AR's that have been squared, honed and polished with spring kit based on rifles use and a screw for adjusting creep and call it done. With my trigger jig and $10 in springs and $5 in screw plus materials can take almost any crappy milspec trigger to a nice clean 3.75 pound trigger. Have been taking $75 to $99 sale priced two stage triggers and tuning a slick as my Geissel's.

Wait for Midway or someone else to be running a sale on 5.56 ammo. Buy the Wolff trigger improvement spring kit with trigger and disconnector spring for $5.99 and spend the $250 that a two stage trigger costs (if running a milspec rifle). Install the $6 spring kit then shoot the $250 in ammo and will be much better off than a milspec rifle with $250 trigger and not shot much because spent your ammo money on a trigger pack. If you have a $400 barrel, go for the $250 trigger. A good rule is trigger should not cost more than 1/2 the price of barrel it's being used to control. Putting a set of 200 mph rated Pirelli tires on a 1975 Ford F150 won't turn it into a Porsche 911 anymore than a $250 trigger will make a $450 rifle drive tacks.
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Old August 10, 2018, 12:05   #26
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Originally Posted by hkshooter View Post
PSA factory grunter. Lot's of crunch/slip/stop, big heavy let off. Sucks for just about everything but making noise.
I don't need a light target trigger but I would like a smooth crisp and predictable one. Advice? After market unit? Smith job?


And I need a sling. Nothing bulky, something to carry with that allows me to transition cleanly to a side arm, reholster the side arm, and get back on the rifle again. Rifle wears a CAR type Magpul butt.

Thanks for the advice.
Before spending any money on a trigger, take the trigger out of the lower, clean it thoroughly, then lube it with grease. Any clean grease will do, but I've had good results with AeroShell 25 and Geiselle grease.

One way to speed up smoothing out the sears is to push on the back of the hammer with your thumb and dry fire a few times. Take care not to let the hammer fall against the lower and be careful not to push so hard that the sear rounds off or breaks.

I've cleaned up several factory triggers from Colt and PSA this way.
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Old August 10, 2018, 14:32   #27
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The Hiperfire Triggers are pretty good.
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Old August 10, 2018, 16:44   #28
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Any clean grease will do, but I've had good results with AeroShell 25 and Geiselle grease.
Did you mean to say Aeroshell 33?
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Old August 10, 2018, 20:10   #29
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My credit card was just charged for the Larue I ordered some 6 weeks ago, so hopefully it's on the way.
Yeah, I forgot that I ordered mine. Hey but at least all my lowers have decent triggers now.

Shot it last weekend on my A2 upper. Felt nice but as far as accuracy, who knows at 100 yds. I'm getting to the point that irons aren't any fun past 25 yards. I can't see much detail in the target beyond that.
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Old August 11, 2018, 00:01   #30
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Did you mean to say Aeroshell 33?
Or AeroShell 22. Any quality clean grease will do.
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Old August 11, 2018, 00:38   #31
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Before spending any money on a trigger, take the trigger out of the lower, clean it thoroughly, then lube it with grease. Any clean grease will do, but I've had good results with AeroShell 25 and Geiselle grease.

One way to speed up smoothing out the sears is to push on the back of the hammer with your thumb and dry fire a few times. Take care not to let the hammer fall against the lower and be careful not to push so hard that the sear rounds off or breaks.

I've cleaned up several factory triggers from Colt and PSA this way.
I have taken a small 2" polishing wheel mounted in a grinder and mirror polished the important surfaces on a stock trigger and made it ten times smoother.
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Old August 11, 2018, 01:45   #32
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I really like the V-tac sling, either the padded or non-padded work great. Iíve had several others but like the V-tac the best.
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Old August 11, 2018, 08:39   #33
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Rock River 2 stage! You can find them on Gunbroker for $80.
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Old August 11, 2018, 09:40   #34
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I have taken a small 2" polishing wheel mounted in a grinder and mirror polished the important surfaces on a stock trigger and made it ten times smoother.
That will work, but it's too easy to cut through the case hardening and expose the softer material underneath. It's just not worth the risk.
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Old August 11, 2018, 16:52   #35
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That will work, but it's too easy to cut through the case hardening and expose the softer material underneath. It's just not worth the risk.
I would be more worried about rounding off contact edges or taking something out of square not using a proper holding fixture and jig to make sure all parts are square as a large percentage of "milspec" triggers are not 100% squared from factory. Rehardening if had to remove more material than expected is easy enough. If I really have to get on a part hard to get it in spec then I heat till light red, quench in ATF transmission fluid, let cool, put in my heat treating oven at 500į for 30 minutes and let air cool then clean up a bit with some light hand polish.
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Old August 11, 2018, 17:36   #36
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That's all well and good if you've got the equipment & know-how.

I did an AR trigger last night, using the method I described above. It went from crunchy-ticky to pretty smooth in five minutes of easy work.

Guess which method gets my recommendation?
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Old August 11, 2018, 18:44   #37
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Thanks again for the additional advice.

I used to do my own trigger work, mostly 1911 stuff. Tried my hand at an AR once. Quickly learned I didn't know enough about AR triggers to do much to them. I may once again try to simply smooth this one up and leave radical changes to others. Just about anything will be an improvement.
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Old August 11, 2018, 18:49   #38
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That will work, but it's too easy to cut through the case hardening and expose the softer material underneath. It's just not worth the risk.
Not if you're only using rouge.
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Old August 11, 2018, 20:50   #39
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Franklin or Fostech. In that order.
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Old August 12, 2018, 14:43   #40
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Originally Posted by Right Side Up View Post
Not if you're only using rouge.
Or toothpaste, Clover laping compound, etc. It's when you start applying tools to parts is when you can have trouble. A buffing wheel creates a lot of heat on a small part, especially when concentrated on small area like sear engagement point. I believe if you use a mild compound such as toothpaste or rouge and any number of common household items and actuate trigger a few dozen times then drop the $6 Wolff trigger & disconnector spring kit it when cleaning off your compound then run a couple hundred rounds will be much happier.

If have experience with 1911 triggers your qualified. Setting up a sub four pound 1911 trigger that doesn't follow slide is much harder than helping an AR trigger. I only mentioned restoring the case hardening because so many were flapping about having gone too far in past and cutting through till caused premature erosion of parts. Proper hone does not ruin hardening and I never put a full polish on FCS engagement surfaces. Hone them to 400 grit and let time allow them to mesh with each other. If you want will pull a milspec FCS then square and hone, send it to you in mail, then can install and if don't like mail back. If do like it mail me your OEM parts and I will use to restock my bins.

Off Topic Rambling
A lot of the ruining of hardening is internet lore perpetuated by people that tried to use power tools or files/sandpaper without a trigger jig. Sorry but very few people can properly hone or polish metal surfaces where thousandths of an inch matter "eye-balling" their work by hand. There is a reason every real smith has a hammer and sear jig sitting on or near their bench with proper adapters and jigs for every trigger so when honing and polishing they make them better before violating any hardening.

If want to do real work on triggers for about the cost of an entry level AR build or a couple of nice trigger packs can purchase a Power Custom Hammer & Sear jig with the adapters for three different firearms designs. Precision work is done by craftsmen using precision tools. Why I keep harping on idea of torque wrench, upper squaring lap and decent holding fixture along with good adapters for torque wrench to barrel nut interface are not optional for consistent work.

Look at the line in any auto assembly plant, almost every fastener and part is installed using a tool that only operates in proper torque range for the job it does. Even the guy who has been snugging the bolts on the hood hinges for 20 years is not trusted to do it by "feel". He has a wrench that is set to torque engineers determined for that fastener which is calibrated regularly and replaced when fails calibration. Have been in plants with in house torque testing machines and each torque wrench is checked as often as once a week or even between shifts for ISO or other certification needs.

If Ma Bell catches me installing the bolt that holds wire on a battery without a calibrated torque wrench or testing voltage of each battery before installing, then combined voltage of each string before hooking to buss bar with calibrated meter lose my job with them for life. If battery voltage is just one volt below 12.8 and hook four together when attach to the very expensive power supply it can fry the power supply then smoke a $100,000 cabinet in the process over batteries being one volt under cabinets voltage as it suddenly is shocked by huge string of batteries that wants to pull cabinet below it's set operating voltage. Fixed several cabinets other techs thought could hook an under voltage string of Nicad telecom batteries in without issue.

All my truck service was done by dealership owned by friend who spent his time in service department wrenching and only hired best mechanics. He sold it and retired and new owner replaced all his experienced mechanics with new technicians right out of school to lower salary cost.

Started taking trucks to local shop with top reputation till took a truck in for tires and alignment. Called to say ball joints, tie rod ends and more were worn and had to be replaced and I told them not to and would take elsewhere to be checked. Put wheels back on and would come pay for tires. They said already had front end apart and begun job which was beginning of woes. Called back to tell me needed new spindles due to broken bolts and then new CV joints as discovered were damaged when removed spindles.

Turned out hired a new front end guy and my truck was his first job with the shop. I flew in and got all my original parts, demanded another mechanic on job and watched every move. Took ball joints and tie rod ends to a machine shop and another front end shop which said nothing worn about them except where someone beat on them with big hammer. Same with spindles. $2,000 later in front end work began servicing my trucks myself. Since then have discovered in the two years that reputible garage did my work everything they did has missing bolts, helicoils pulling out when remove bolts that haven't fallen out or were never put back and all sorts of issues.

It has taken me almost a decade to fix the issues they caused. Have replaced dozens of helicoils and repaired many stripped holes using a combination of Time-Serts, Keenserts and other specialty threaded inserts that are as strong as the original hole or stronger rather than a cheap piece of wound wire that were probably Chinese knock offs of real Helicoils which I don't like the originals. Many I wonder how they stripped or broke unless using impact wrench set to tighten when meant to loosen.

Over winter rebuilt rear end of truck they put new ring and pinions sets front & rear to discover shims were not used, didn't bother to replace OEM axle bearings while had axles out and a general mess. Decided to open up front differential and while gears were still good the implimentation sucked so had to order seals, bearings and reassemble it correctly. Luckily my friend that sold his dealership and retired got bored and opened a diesel repair shop and does all work himself so both big trucks go to him and he has corrected multiple technician induced issues on them.

Utube videos can be great or cause many to ruin a lot of parts. Internet instructions can cause many to ruin parts and botch jobs or be a big help. Make sure your getting good information and compare it to a good shop manual whether gun or truck. Have a Chiltons and a Haynes manual for every truck own. Have two separate shop manuals for every motorcycle own. Have two copies of the two best AR shop manuals have read for home library and one of each for my AR building bench so always have references for any job may tackle. Just because someone posts a Utube video doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Because a specification is found in a discussion group doesn't always make it correct. Just because someone screws together an AR in kitchen and it works doesn't mean it's built to its full potential but some can build one on tailgate of truck and be near perfect.

Plenty of good $69 to $99 triggers out there. They can me massaged as well and shoot with triggers twice their cost. Have over three dozen builds in safes not counting give aways. Have parts to build another twelve to eighteen in parts locker. Put a $250 trigger pack in four dozen rifles would be a bet excessive and why have bought proper tools and learned to tweak every style in way that makes it better. Did go big on binaries when I was able to get them for $290 each so have when a build seems to need it.

Come from a school of thought that craftsmen use the best toolls and methods they can learn to do a job and why I get help with my FAL builds. Till have more of the nuances learned by watching and listening to someone with experience I appreciate being the apprentice till ready to branch out. Worked for a friend on weekends and evenings for free for five years before began doing my own wiring. Got a part time job working after hours and weekends as a helper for a local HVAC contractor with stunning reputation till began doing it on my own. Learn what I can from books and then find a mentor.
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Old August 12, 2018, 23:39   #41
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Great. Advice! You are absolutely correct.
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Old Yesterday, 14:53   #42
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TTAG Trigger Roundup


What you will find is some of the "only names in AR triggers" might be good, but there's better for less $$$ out there.

Having shared that I've used the Spikes Battle Trigger or ALG in everything at some point. If you aren't familiar both are milspec designs but polished then NiB coated, making for a very smooth version of a milspec. This, in turn, can be improved further with the trigger adjustment screw from JoeBob's. It replaces the pistol grip screw and has a second screw through its center than allows you to remove the takeup on a milspec trigger. It will improve any milspec trigger, but makes these 2 exceptionally nice. I have done this to all of mine. FYI the SBT or ALG both run about $55, the trigger improvement screw another $15. It is absolutely the best combination you'll find at a $70 price point.

SBT


Adjustment Screw


Now for a drop-in unit, after seeing the reviews, I went with the James Madison Tactical Sabre in my precision build. It has a hint of takeup and is a classic glass rod when it single-stage breaks at a bit over 4lbs. Might sound a bit heavy for a "precision" use but I really like it. $99. Look at it's break curve and it can barely be beat at any price point, and certainly not at a c-note.


JMT Review

So while there are lots of opinions I say there's no arguing with the technology that tests the triggers. So you can drop $55 for a significant improvement over milspec, or $300. Ultimately let you wallet and your needs dictate what you choose.
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Old Yesterday, 20:21   #43
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What you will find is some of the "only names in AR triggers" might be good, but there's better for less $$$
No you're wrong and so is that article. But hey continue on with your cheapness. Your cheap FCG may work just fine on the range. My SSA is for defending my life. They are combat and duty proven and I've used them since they came out. I bet you're one of those guys that think all AR parts are the same.
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Old Today, 07:34   #44
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No you're wrong and so is that article. But hey continue on with your cheapness. Your cheap FCG may work just fine on the range. My SSA is for defending my life. They are combat and duty proven and I've used them since they came out. I bet you're one of those guys that think all AR parts are the same.
The fact that you only read that far, then felt the need to reply, tells me cheap corn whiskey doesn't have many positive effects on synaptic function. I'm also guessing you drive a 1988 Chevy, your TV is a Magnavox, and your phone a Blackberry, because they are "the best" and could never be improved upon at better price points as well.

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