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Old August 03, 2018, 09:38   #1
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Questions on 308 SBRs

Im kicking tires on getting an 11 inch FAL. I live in the boonies and I like keeping things quiet. So, has anyone done any longer range shooting 300-500yd with an SBR in 308, is it a total fire breathing concussion fest regardless of muzzle device (flash hider, muzzle brake, so on) and who makes a suppressor that will fit a FAL thread and handle the round in a short barrel. I have read a few things on line but was looking for some first hand experience.
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Old August 03, 2018, 10:40   #2
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If you want to do it, you should go ahead and do it.

But
Since you set some parameters, 300 to 500 yards, it might be a good idea to look at what kind of velocity you would be getting from an 11" barrel. My guess would be 2,100 fps with a 150 grain bullet. It looks like you would be better served with the 300 BlackOut

You want a FAL chambered in 308 to be reliable with an 11" bbl? Good luck. If I wanted reliability with a short barrel, I would choose the 300 BlackOut with its pistol length gas system.

You want to actually hit a target at 300 to 500 yds with a FAL SBR. It needs to be kind of a large target and you're really going to need to have your act together.
Doing this with an SBR AR in 300 BackOut isn't difficult.

You want to suppress a 308 Win with an 11" bbl? You'll destroy the best of suppressors with that barrel length. Any suppressor would be just fine for the 300 BlackOut in an SBR

You said you wanted first hand experience? I have lots of that with the 300 BlackOut. SBR, suppressed, accuracy, reliability, doesn't matter
I have no experience bending a platform into something it can't do such as a FAL SBR that'll shoot reliably or shoot at distance.
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Old August 03, 2018, 11:10   #3
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I already have a 9 inch blackout so I know what you mean there. I also have a 10 inch AK so I already see there is a big difference in what comes out the muzzle end for noise and fire.
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Old August 03, 2018, 13:01   #4
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What would be the difference in power between a 300BO with a 10.5"bbl and a 308 with an 11" bbl?

Can a FAL do very well at 300 to 500yds with a standard bbl? It's only going to get worse with an SBR FAL. What's the twist rate of a FAL? It's going to work with the reduced velocity coming out of an 11"bbl?

One of my 300BOs shoots less than an inch at 100yds. It would do quite well at 300yds. There would be a lot of drop but accuracy wouldn't be a problem at 500yds.

That rifle has a 14.5"bbl with a pinned and welded flash hider. No SBR paperwork. It also shoots the less than 1" group with a SilencerCo SpecWar on it. 100% reliability, somewhat compact, accurate and easy on recoil and the suppressor
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Old August 03, 2018, 17:18   #5
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My 16" short gas FAL is definately giving up performance over my full size and is a bit more aggressive on the shooter. When put a can on it acts much nicer but if don't use modified gas plug will beat the rifle up bad and rip your brass to shreds. A few months ago got to shoot a Galil Ace 7.6251 pistol with folding stock. Without stock deployed it was a spray and pray proposition and with stock open without suppressor having M80 ball ammo fireballing in my face sucked (11.8" barrel) but with a decent suppressor it's a nice weapon. Stock folded would be for stowing only and once it got a live magazine and in my hands stock would be open.

Have a 7.5" and pair of 10.5" 6.8 spc II pistols. The 7.5" is unpleasant to shoot without the can but have also been learning about baffle erosion. Bigger cartridges and shorter barrels are hard on your baffles. Purchased a can purpose built for 458 SOCOM and could not understand why it was 10" long and built so burly till swapped between it and my AAC Ti Rant on a 8.5" and a 10.5" 458 SOCOM. Everything is a compromise and like the big can now.

Oddly, have a pair of DPMS 16" AR 10's with binary triggers that are much more pleasant to shoot with full power ammo than my 16" FAL. Currently the short FAL has a small plug and is loaded with Tubb Absolute 2 Hole 355 grain dual projectile subsonic and AAC 762SDN-6 next to bed. With the heavy duplex subsonic ammo it's fun but at $2.50 per round it's costly but it's job is zombie duty when in my underwear and wife hears a "sound" in middle of night. I hope your targets are large if planning on chopping an FAL to 11" and engage to 500 yards. May want to model that in some good ballistics software and take in fact that the FAL is a 2 MOA rifle with double the barrel length.
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Old August 03, 2018, 17:27   #6
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Yes it’s going to be loud and shoot flames. Do what you wish. I see no cool factor getting sprayed in the face with burning powder. You can find the threads for a sup. Check out an Omega. A flash hider is useless.

I have a 17 3/4 inch para. With a sup fitting. If needs to be more compact fold the stick. I have a 16” short gas set up that I just had to have. It’s tricked out light weight with an alloy lower. It doesn’t get much love.

Before I would buy a stamp, I would build a pistol and put a brace on it to see. At that length you mention you will need an A3 sight. Like a Hampton lower cuz it’s going to shoot damn low
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Old August 03, 2018, 20:57   #7
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An Omega won't last any length of time on an 11" 308. I would wonder if it could go 10 rds without coming apart. The Omega is much too light. Look what it's rated for before you buy

The SpecWar is bullet proof but 11" would eventually ruin it. Look up its spec before buying

I have an Omega and a SpecWar. Both are run on the 300. The Omega on an 8" dedicated subsonic upper and the SpecWar on a 10.5" upper for supersonic

I also run the SpecWar on my most accurate 300 BO. A 14.5 bbl with a pinned and welded mount. No stamp, not too long and crazy accurate.
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Old August 03, 2018, 21:12   #8
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Originally Posted by CG&L View Post
An Omega won't last any length of time on an 11" 308. I would wonder if it could go 10 rds without coming apart. The Omega is much too light. Look what it's rated for before you buy

The SpecWar is bullet proof but 11" would eventually ruin it. Look up its spec before buying

I have an Omega and a SpecWar. Both are run on the 300. The Omega on an 8" dedicated subsonic upper and the SpecWar on a 10.5" upper for supersonic

I also run the SpecWar on my most accurate 300 BO. A 14.5 bbl with a pinned and welded mount. No stamp, not too long and crazy accurate.
Omega is guaranteed FA. You may blow it up but they'll fix it. I agree 30 cal and sup just do the 300. Blue birds
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Old August 03, 2018, 21:41   #9
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I actually have experience with exactly what you are asking about.

I built an 11 inch FAL SBR many years back. Must have a short gas system for that length. After a TON of screwing around with gas port sizes, then return and gas piston springs, then eventually reduced as much resistance as possible in the action, I finally got it to run. Worked best when coupled with a Surefire SOCOM which adds back pressure.

Impressive, sure. Accurate? No.

Finally ended up switching out to a 14.5 inch barrel still using the short gas. Runs great even unsuppressed, but likes the hotter surplus.

Good results out to 300m using iron sights. Haven't really tried much beyond that cause, well, there are better tools for that kind of range.

Based on my experience, I would recommend 13 inch minimum length barrel, short gas, and a SOCOM.
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Old August 04, 2018, 17:29   #10
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Youtube time?









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Old August 04, 2018, 23:19   #11
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Originally Posted by CG&L View Post
it might be a good idea to look at what kind of velocity you would be getting from an 11" barrel. My guess would be 2,100 fps with a 150 grain bullet.
I did a test with my OSW SBR FAL back in 2009.
147 & 150 gr = 2,400 fps string average
165 gr = 2,350 average
180 gr = 2,275

Same day, weather condition also did an 16" Ak and a Krinkov.
124 gr
Romanian build averaged 2,351
Krinkov averaged = 1,990

When I krono them loads I wasn't trying to make any point or comparing guns...just testing a bunch of my guns, and these 3 were done the same day that I have cataloged and shit.


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Old August 05, 2018, 07:59   #12
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I would have to chrono an 11"bbl myself. It would be unlikely you could break 2,100 fps with a 150gr bullet

Then there's the twist rate problem. You would need a 1-8 twist to stabilize a 150gr bullet going that slow. And you're going to use a suppressor?

It still looks like a 300BO build would be the right thing to do
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Old August 05, 2018, 12:30   #13
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It would be unlikely you could break 2,100 fps with a 150gr bullet
I'm a born again Christian so I'm not allowed to lie.
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But those who deal truthfully are His delight.

Here are some of my real life results and picture of my testimony:













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Old August 05, 2018, 12:40   #14
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The 7.62 NATO Galil Ace pistol was shooting a while back was such a elegant weapon would own one if had the disposable income to drop a couple grand on a toy with no real logical excuse for it to even exist. Same day we wrung it out as a group of fellow gun enthusiasts had brought my 7.5" barrel AR pistol with Battle Arms Development buffer and shaved Shockwave pistol brace along with a pair of 10.5" AR pistols. One had a KAK Shockwave pistol kit and other has a Deadfoot Arms micro buffer with folding stock and Tailhook brace.

Also brought my 5.5" barrel AR pistol in 5.56, 10.5" AR 5.56 pistol as well as 8.5" and 10.5" 458 SOCOM builds. Unfortunately didn't have enough 458 SOCOM ammo for everyone to really wring them out but all got a feel for recoil with full power and subsonics. All agreed the 458 SOCOM's were not fun with full power ammo but a joy with subsonic ammo. The ten round limit kicked them down in the group ratings as well as recoil. The 5.5" 5.56 and 7.5" 6.8 were both pushed to side due to fact they were miserable without a suppressor and would both shoot cause the quick change suppressors to loosen and had to be checked after every magazine and snuggled up a couple clicks on occasion.

Of all the compacts we played with that day the pair of 10.5" 6.8's along with a POF 12.5" PDW in 7.62 NATO and a 12.7" LWRC REPR II SBR won the day on delivering usable firepower out to 200 yards in the hands of non professionals. There was quite a mix of pistols and SBR's present between the group that gathered at a local enthusiasts private range with steel course that has 250 yard range and yes, we could walk rounds into plates between 200 and 250 yards but trajectory of any short barrel with loss of velocity and heavy projectiles the drop from 200 to 225 or 225 to 250 yards was evident that projectiles were beginning to fall like bricks. Without knowing the range past 200 I am not making first round cold bore shots at 300 yards much less out to 500 with a 7.62 short barrel.

The most accurate short barrels I own are pair of 13.7" Noveske tubes in 5.56 and 6.8. The 6.8 even with the 13.7" barrel is difficult to dope rounds past 200 yards as every 10 yards is huge difference in total drop. If dope a shot as 210 yards and is actually 220 the 6.8's are in the dirt. The 5.56 Noveske gives much more forgiving margin for slight miscalculation of range if need a first round hit using 69 grain SMK's. I want a 7.62 pistol but after shooting a few have been rethinking it as a 6.5 Creedmore. A 12.5" 6.5. Creedmore seems to look really good on paper versus 7.62 at longer ranges.

Check out how little muzzle velocity 6.5 Creedmore loses as barrel is chopped.



Look at velocity drop in 7.62.





If the ~14 fps per second loss per inch on 6.5 Creedmore holds as continues to drop below 16" and for grins say it doubles still should be carrying another 100 fps of velocity with much better aerodynamic qualities. Honestly I can't seem to find much of any information on 6.5 Creedmore at less than 16" so kind of waiting for others to experiment and if it does well then always have a spare AR 10 receiver group laying around could build into a jumbo pistol as the OP's end result of a small package that carries a punch out to mid range distances is something I could be very interested in plus figure in the significant recoil reduction of 6.5 over 7.62 it should be much more manageable.
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Old August 05, 2018, 13:39   #15
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You MAY be able to hit the proverbial "Broad Side of a Barn" at 500 Yards.
SBRs are not Sniper Rifles.
A 11" Barrel will make an impressive fireball;actual ballistics will be unimpressive. Performance wise, you'd be better off with 300 Blackout or my favorite, 7.6239.
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Old August 05, 2018, 17:39   #16
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You MAY be able to hit the proverbial "Broad Side of a Barn" at 500 Yards.
Some of us bad-ass tier-1 elite operators can hit a 500 yrd man-silhouette target with a 45 acp...that's why they make those 308 11" SBRs for us exclusively....lol


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Old August 05, 2018, 17:53   #17
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You MAY be able to hit the proverbial "Broad Side of a Barn" at 500 Yards.
SBRs are not Sniper Rifles.
A 11" Barrel will make an impressive fireball;actual ballistics will be unimpressive. Performance wise, you'd be better off with 300 Blackout or my favorite, 7.6239.
Not arguing or disagreeing but my 10.5" 6.8 spc II's rose to the top of my pile after spending a lot of money buying five Superlative Arms piston drive kits and mix of KAK Shockwave, Battle Arms Development and Deadfoot Arms micro buffer kits. My 11.5" and 12.5" barrels got DI gas systems. Smallest was a 5.5" 5.56 with the Deadfoot folding pistol brace and the 7.5" 6.8 spc II but something about the 1:7 fast twist Bison barrels keeps wanting to unscrew suppressors with full power ammo and the 6.8 is anemic with subsonic pills.

Built a Noveske 10.5" 1:12 6.8 with KAK Shockwave and wife immediately stole it. Ordered another 10.5" 6.8 barrel and now wife and I both carry 10.5" Superlative Arms piston drive 6.8 spc II with KAK Shockwave pistol braces. All things considered are easiest to maneuver, hardest hitting pistol build I was able to come up with out of nine builds in three cartridges. Nobody who has shot them and not been impressed. The minute I shoot a pistol that feel outperforms them will immediately go about replacing them. Anything past their 200 yard range we will just drive away.

I like SBR's and pinned suppressors on short barrels to save a stamp rather than have two on same rifle but most states don't allow loaded rifles in vehicles, especially if from out of state. Also many states have to get written permit to bring a NFA firearm across state line so I went on a long journey trying to come up with hardest hitting, best fighting pistol combination possible. Have a 10.5" 5.56 piston drive with Battle Arms Development buffer and shaved Shockwave pistol brace that is sweet plus 8.5" and 10" 458 SOCOM that's near top of our pistol pile except too much recoil for wife. Based on where we are going and laws on NFA the host pistol is never a legal issue (not driving through Cali, NY, Mass, etc ever again) but check their NFA rules for out of state and decide if taking a can.

Built a 12.5" pistol in 5.56 and 6.8 but discovered from a guy was helping assemble his upper that his state defined a 12.5" barrel as a rifle and he had to sell his 12.5" and buy a 10.5" barrel to be legal. From Arkansas state firearms law:

Quote:
"Handgun" means any firearm, other than a fully automatic firearm, with a*
barrel length of less than twelve inches (12'') that is designed, made, or adapted to*
be fired with one (1) hand;*
He had purchased a 12.5" ARP barrel and planned to use it as a truck "pistol" and a suppressed hunting firearm till a friend told him 12.5" was a no-go for pistols in their state. Unsure if other states have similar rules so my 12.5" pistols were taken out of the "travel gun" classification. He said he checked with his Trust lawyer about whether a muzzle device on a 10.5" barrel would be part of the barrel measurement legally. His lawyer told him if it was pinned and took OAL pat 12" it's was a violation but if not pinned then would be o.k. If we go on a trip that is for sure going to take us through Arkansas might remove my suppressor adapter and replace with a generic thread protector or take the 7.5" 5.56 or 8.5" 458 SOCOM.

If doing an SBR or "pistol" as a work around to loaded rifle in vehicle or travelling out of state and want your CCW to cover your big weapon better brush up on laws of a every state you will travel through closely so don't get a nasty legal surprise. If have to travel through a 10 round magazine limit state the 458's might be best option as they hit target proportionately to recoil they induce on operator. One thing is sure, the "best SBR" or "jumbo pistol" question will never have a definitive answer on barrel length, cartridge, design, etc. Find what makes you happiest and keeps you legal in as many states you may travel and be willing to do something different when new equipment becomes available.
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Old August 05, 2018, 18:12   #18
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Some of us bad-ass tier-1 elite operators can hit a 500 yrd man-silhouette target with a 45 acp...that's why they make those 308 11" SBRs for us exclusively....lol
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Google Karl Lippard as he holds the world record for 600 and 1,000 yards with what he calls his 5" 1911A2 NCO. He sells kits to do his A2 improvement which really strengthens the lockup between slide and frame of a 1911 without any other major changes except to sights. I have a 5" Lippard 1911 A2 NCO that Karl did the work including installing his custom long distance sights, plus fitted his custom bushing and a few other tricks. Ordered a complete parts kit from him and converted a 6" 1911 Long Slide to an A2 NCO.

He does a 100, 200, 300 and 400 yard accuracy package on your 1911. I went with the 300 yard package that includes.

Quote:
300 yard accuracy package
Includes the 1911 A2 Upgrade with frame modification, patented Military Link, NCO Bushing, NCO 78,000 psi barrel, NCO Slide Stop and Safety Plunger Spring, and a Recoil Guide 3 Spring set. Plus, the new patented A3 Safety Cam/Hammer Operating System replacement kit, patented NCO 400 yard Front and Rear Sights, NCO Firing Pin and NCO Spring, NCO Sear Spring, tuned Trigger adjustment, patented A3 Extended-Thumb Safety; free installation, a complete parts inspection, and reassembly.
Can ring a 12"12" plate from 200 yards without missing after get the wind doped. May be on it first round or take three rounds to get on target due to wind but once it goes clang every round hits like a machine. It's the pistol in my primary body armor kit as know if my rifle lays down I am deadly at 100 yards with the Lippard NCO and 200 to 300 yards going to knock the dust off a zombies plates and if not wearing plates going to poke holes in him. It's still not an SBR or good jumbo pistol but he has the sighting system and fitment of parts down to make a 1911 shoot better than quite a few kitchen table AR pistol builds have seen in action.
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Old August 05, 2018, 18:21   #19
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Huey, you sure about this? ".... Also many states have to get written permit to bring an NFA firearm across state line so ..." I thought a 5320.20 was needed every time a NFA firearm crosses any state line. I realize suppressors don't require the form.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does...otgun-or-short
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Old August 05, 2018, 18:39   #20
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Thanks for the info on the Karl Lippard guns. Interesting read. Have you done any distance & close up drills with yours? Wondering how you adjust your sighting when transitioning from distance to close quarters shooting, sight along slide for up close, graduated rear sight or ...? Pics would be appreciated if possible.

Downloaded the NCO manual. Explains the sight system. Definitely a why didn't I think of that approach. Nice system!

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Old August 06, 2018, 08:32   #21
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Huey, you sure about this? ".... Also many states have to get written permit to bring an NFA firearm across state line so ..." I thought a 5320.20 was needed every time a NFA firearm crosses any state line. I realize suppressors don't require the form.
https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/does...otgun-or-short
Your right that the form is needed every time a NFA except suppressor crosses state lines and why I only have one true SBR and only three guns that go full auto all in an older Trust. None of which ever take out of state, in fact seldom leave my property. Can you imagine the flurry of forms coming in before a big machine gun shoot that draws people from all over the nation? If regulated at state level Georgia would not want to spend the money processing them and would declare open borders for legally owned NFA items.

Costs more nailing cans on barrels but pin my cans when applicable so suppressor is only part of gun with a Form. Saves $200 SBR stamp and moving cans around to rifles with papers but sharing cans. Have two Form 1's in system now to build sealed cans that will be pinned to what are now pistols with quick change suppressor adapters that will become rifles with pinned cans once the Form 1's arrive. I disliked AR and other jumbo pistols till discovered they fit a huge loophole and were better than unloaded rifle in locked case. Finally dropped a binary trigger in favorite AR pistol and it's a real crossing state lines machine.

fal762,
If get Carl to do the most basic work, install his A2 supposed link and sights (if not perfectly aligned on 5" pistol going to suck when try shooting 300 yards) and then decide what other parts needed based on configuration of pistol. The high pressure barrels allow loading up near the 460 Rowan level but do not accidentally run your A2 ammo through a standard 1911, especially a compact. I use ball ammo for sending on a suborbital trajectory before returning to earth.

http://karllippard.com/military/Combat-NCO.html

What's even more impressive is after his upgrade including he rates your 1911 as a 150,000 round pistol rater than 15,000 between rebuilds. The basic A2 conversion and fitting of slide to frame and barrel to new bushing is under $200 with shipping. Thinking of sending one or two of my SIG 1911's to him, especially the Tacops TB which is my primary suppressor 1911 and is a big burley firearm out of the box.

http://karllippard.com/military/1911A2-Upgrade.html
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Old August 08, 2018, 15:23   #22
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Lippard is a bullshitter extraordinare bar none. His claims have been debunked many times over the last 20 years and he has zero credibility with proper smiths like Louder Than Words, Chuck Rogers, Chambers Custom etc. I'm surprised you fell for his bullshit Huey but then, maybe I'm not...
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Old August 11, 2018, 09:17   #23
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Never met the man but the pistol he did for me was fairly priced and performed as expected. I do believe he is stretching the ability to make effective hits past 300 yards and do realize his 500 yard targets are 4'8' sheets of plywood and 600 is lucky to get a six foot ten shot group but when use his sights it makes 100 and 200 yard shots on steel plates much easier if understand his notches and using width of front sight to estimate range. Would never send him a pistol for a defensive, Bullseye, bowling pin, IDPA or IPSC build.

I read a lot, try a lot and take the best parts of what someone offers and put the others in the spare parts bin. Notice I recommended his lowest tier builds only. The $200 A2 link which does strengthen that portion of the pistol. Other option I recommended was his $800 build that gets you just his unique features for a long distance plinker. Still believe Jim Stroh of Alpha Precision (now retired and business closed) is one of the best pistol smith's have ever seen and used. Most of the old guard smith's like Wilson run corporations with employees stamping their trade name on product.
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Old August 11, 2018, 23:38   #24
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Im kicking tires on getting an 11 inch FAL. I live in the boonies and I like keeping things quiet. So, has anyone done any longer range shooting 300-500yd with an SBR in 308, is it a total fire breathing concussion fest regardless of muzzle device ....
My 10.5" barrel shorty is a definitely a Dragon, fire breathing and all. It is fun to shoot but one thing I didn't anticipate is the amount of powder blow back. Be sure to wear your glasses...


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Old August 14, 2018, 11:15   #25
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Never met the man but the pistol he did for me was fairly priced and performed as expected. I do believe he is stretching the ability to make effective hits past 300 yards and do realize his 500 yard targets are 4'8' sheets of plywood and 600 is lucky to get a six foot ten shot group but when use his sights it makes 100 and 200 yard shots on steel plates much easier if understand his notches and using width of front sight to estimate range. Would never send him a pistol for a defensive, Bullseye, bowling pin, IDPA or IPSC build.

I read a lot, try a lot and take the best parts of what someone offers and put the others in the spare parts bin. Notice I recommended his lowest tier builds only. The $200 A2 link which does strengthen that portion of the pistol. Other option I recommended was his $800 build that gets you just his unique features for a long distance plinker. Still believe Jim Stroh of Alpha Precision (now retired and business closed) is one of the best pistol smith's have ever seen and used. Most of the old guard smith's like Wilson run corporations with employees stamping their trade name on product.
Karl Lippard is a liar. My buddy bought one of his comps 3rd party after reading one of the gun bullshitters reviews and had serious issues with getting it to fit. Emailed Lippard who told him he never made one such as my buddy had despite his name being engraved on the item. They went back and forth but Lippard never accepted responsibility for the shitty product he made. Fugged my buddy over good.

I've been to Wilson Combat and Nighthawk Custom. Yes, the pistols are built by many smiths as they are at Les Baer and other larger custom places but they are built one at a time by one smith working on one gun until it is finished, test fired and boxed. They have resale value too; Lippard guns are never going to be worth but a fraction of what anyone pays for them. If his innovations were worth a shit, you'd see them in the high dollar guns used in USPSA or IDPA but you don't because they aren't. When a guy is paying $4,000 for a custom USPSA Limited gun, he can afford to have the very best parts in it. Not one of Lippards parts go into such guns nor are his guns used by anyone to win anything; that says it all right there.

When all you do all day is work on guns, you get good at it. When I was in charge of production at LWRC, my lead assembler could build a lower from soup to nuts in 7 minutes without breaking a sweat nor marring the finish. Uppers went together (with gas blocks already taper pinned on barrels) in about the same time.

At S&W I watched groups of people sitting at round tables assemble, test and time revolvers and pistols. The groups were often Mom, Dad, kids and sometimes grand parents working together. Many I spoke to were multiple generations of S&W employees whose great, great grandparents had worked at the factory. They knew what the hell they were doing for sure. The AR assembly cell was just starting when I was there and it was in a 'C' shape. They had a mini CNC right in the line, putting the taper pins in the gas blocks 4 at a time in the jig. Was awesome to see what you could achieve with real money and it broke my heart when S&W passed on buying LWRC. What they could have done with the company would have far surpassed what the current owners have done with it but they passed on it in favor of importing Turkish double shotguns that didn't even last a year.
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The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money."
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Old August 15, 2018, 00:47   #26
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At S&W I watched groups of people sitting at round tables assemble, test and time revolvers and pistols. The groups were often Mom, Dad, kids and sometimes grand parents working together. Many I spoke to were multiple generations of S&W employees whose great, great grandparents had worked at the factory. They knew what the hell they were doing for sure. The AR assembly cell was just starting when I was there and it was in a 'C' shape. They had a mini CNC right in the line, putting the taper pins in the gas blocks 4 at a time in the jig. Was awesome to see what you could achieve with real money and it broke my heart when S&W passed on buying LWRC. What they could have done with the company would have far surpassed what the current owners have done with it but they passed on it in favor of importing Turkish double shotguns that didn't even last a year.
Or S&W might have just shit the bed with LWRC as they have with Gemtech recently.
Don't know if you have followed that shit but they did a few things
first they quit manufacturing all SMG cans
Then they shut down the Boise operation, everything in the future will be done in Springfield MA
in the process of this restructuring they fired all the Gemtech employees, not a one is going to Springfield
all in all an extremely sad state of affairs.

Dater is pondering going back into limited manufacture at this point

S&W did something similar after buying up Crimson Trace, now most of that product line are wholly Chinese manufactured, they pretty much tossed a bunch of employees to the Wolves shredding that company for the value of the brand name just like Gemtech.

Just keeping it real
Remington has been pulling the same trash too.
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Old August 15, 2018, 03:33   #27
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Karl Lippard is a liar. My buddy bought one of his comps 3rd party after reading one of the gun bullshitters reviews and had serious issues with getting it to fit. Emailed Lippard who told him he never made one such as my buddy had despite his name being engraved on the item. They went back and forth but Lippard never accepted responsibility for the shitty product he made. Fugged my buddy over good.
I can believe that. I have never had him do any compensated pistol or truly high end custom pistol. Many of the pistols on his site I see other smiths style and believe he either subcontracted them out or worked on a gun built by another. Odds are he didn't build your buddies pistol but subbed it out to low bidder for work beyond his normal services, stamped his name on it and then added a percentage markup for himself. Farthest have had him go is install his A2 link upgrade, long distance sighting system with high pressure barrel and fitted bushing. Another pistol has nothing but the A2 kit with link, slide release and sights.

Both pistols I sent him were second class factory 1911's. Were not anything like a Colt, SIG, Kimber or other first rate pistols. For a true race gun there are a dozen people that I would go to before him but appreciate and respect your honest opinions. Both pistols shoot, I did remainder of custom work myself and both shoot well. Have many guns that over the years have been sent out to multiple smiths or companies for one or two proprietary parts then after the different features installed the gun went to a smith whom I trusted well for making all the proprietary mods work together or did that part myself.

Was a time (still is to a point) where every three horse town had its own self proclaimed 1911 guru who built race guns for locals who used in local club matches to shoot more as a recreational pistol. Had one build a Colt 1911 for me and while functioned, did not shoot anything like what I expected and became a practice range pistol and only raced it at two matches. A couple years ago I tore it down and totally rebuilt it into a custom carry for my voluntary church security work. All I kept of his work was the fitted match barrel and compensator plus sights. Went through and replaced all the internal fitted parts, springs, did a 3.25 pound trigger and drilled the front sight mounted on compensator just behind the port for extended sight radius for a tritium insert.

After it was broken in when having a good day on the range fired a 101 round 2.5" group minus one flyer that I called soon as trigger tripped the sear. It fell about 1" outside of the ragged one hole group as hands were sweaty, tired and let my mental concentration drop. I personally redid all the work including fitting slide to frame, changing the method first smith used to neuter the Series 80 extra parts, tuned trigger and additional metal checkering after determining from my post was not 100% confident could work the far corners of the sanctuary at 100 feet with precision shot using a 5" uncompensated pistol plus have a fast and accurate follow up shot if needed. It's the perfect pistol built for one particular spot in one particular room.

Would not have ever considered Karl for this pistol or any complete build but doing his A2 frame upgrade and some other light tasks while in his shop would not hesitate to use him again. Actually acquired a "made in Phillipines" 10mm 1911 recently that plan to send to him for the A2 frame mod as feel the gun is battering itself a little too hard and don't trust the offshore 1911 with high pressure round. Also have a U.S. assembled Springfield with 51% Brazilian made parts by Imbel with a 460 Rowland conversion that may get the A2 frame modification only as well.

As to his compensators, they are drop in barrel bushing replacements similar to the $49 fleabay units. Would not use one on a dare. Compensators are supposed to be threaded on a barrel using a well fitted oversized solid bushing or bushingless reverse cone extending from the comp that is fitted to the front of the slide. When saw his drop in comps that replace the barrel bushing it told me he had gotten lazy taking the easy path and know with a little wear a bushing comp will begin to bind. Have bought several 1911's with owner installed drop in bushing comps of which every one was removed and replaced with a properly fitted barrel bushing or threaded match barrel with a proper muzzle brake. I don't trust anyone that markets a drop in bushing comp as someone who just wants to make money selling parts with no function but looking cool. Their perfect for an old Essex pot metal 1911 race gun look alike.

Won't use any of his patented fire control components myself. Know a few who have them and are satisfied but I don't need internal fire control parts that differ so much from all others including John Brownings parts and those with custom market improvements. I am more than 51% on board with your opinion but not throwing the baby out with the bath water. Just because a lot of his parts and work is not something I would order doesn't mean I won't leverage the one or two ideas/services that I believe work as advertised for the most part.
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Old August 15, 2018, 03:44   #28
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Or S&W might have just shit the bed with LWRC as they have with Gemtech recently. Don't know if you have followed that shit but they did a few things first they quit manufacturing all SMG cans. Then they shut down the Boise operation, everything in the future will be done in Springfield MA in the process of this restructuring they fired all the Gemtech employees, not a one is going to Springfield all in all an extremely sad state of affairs.

S&W did something similar after buying up Crimson Trace, now most of that product line are wholly Chinese manufactured, they pretty much tossed a bunch of employees to the Wolves shredding that company for the value of the brand name just like Gemtech.

Just keeping it real
Remington has been pulling the same trash too.
This is the new corporate raider model on all items from dishwashers to firearms. Have group of investors fund a hostile takeover of established reputible company or buy one with cash flow issues. They then produce crap for as long as they can while raising prices using the reputation of a century or more old brand. Then when their crappy products begin to cause a downturn in cash flow begin selling off the more valuable hard assets till have banked a huge amount of cash then sell the trademark name to another big conglomerate to use to build and industry standard average product thats never as good as the original but enough better than the transitional garbage the average consumer is satisfied and the old brand chugs along making plastic guns that shoot but not the art in function the company built it's reputation on. They have this down to a science on Wall Street.
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Old August 15, 2018, 08:36   #29
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This is the new corporate raider model on all items from dishwashers to firearms. Have group of investors fund a hostile takeover of established reputible company or buy one with cash flow issues. They then produce crap for as long as they can while raising prices using the reputation of a century or more old brand. Then when their crappy products begin to cause a downturn in cash flow begin selling off the more valuable hard assets till have banked a huge amount of cash then sell the trademark name to another big conglomerate to use to build and industry standard average product thats never as good as the original but enough better than the transitional garbage the average consumer is satisfied and the old brand chugs along making plastic guns that shoot but not the art in function the company built it's reputation on. They have this down to a science on Wall Street.
well, it's nothing new in the firearms industry. Winchester did it many times in the 19th century just to eliminate any competition. That family murdered many a company. Bullard, Whitney and others.

I am pretty certain Dater is extremely pissed. Whether he jumps feet first back in the industry is the million dollar question
Since S&W took over it's been like pulling teeth for even Gemtech stores to obtain product. Doc always ran a pretty tight ship and was one of the great innovators in that industry. He gets back involved it's going to be the big suck for S&W.
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Old August 15, 2018, 09:08   #30
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Found a website where guy sells a "muzzle brake" which is the exact same design as Gemtech baffle from what I remember the inside of one looking like. I haven't done it as have my own ability to machine baffle stacks but know someone that got dimensions of this "muzzle brake" applied for a Form 1suppressor and when his form arrived order the part and put it in a tube then called it done. I am not ordering stuff like this off the internet with credit card.

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Old August 15, 2018, 13:23   #31
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Or S&W might have just shit the bed with LWRC as they have with Gemtech recently.
Don't know if you have followed that shit but they did a few things
first they quit manufacturing all SMG cans
Then they shut down the Boise operation, everything in the future will be done in Springfield MA
in the process of this restructuring they fired all the Gemtech employees, not a one is going to Springfield
all in all an extremely sad state of affairs.

Dater is pondering going back into limited manufacture at this point

S&W did something similar after buying up Crimson Trace, now most of that product line are wholly Chinese manufactured, they pretty much tossed a bunch of employees to the Wolves shredding that company for the value of the brand name just like Gemtech.

Just keeping it real
Remington has been pulling the same trash too.
Yeah, I've been following that silliness but that's what you get when you sell out to big corporations for a payday. I was looking forward to a payout for my shares plus a limited employment contract that I was pretty certain would be extended when I proved my value. If not, having S&W as an employer on my resume wouldn't have hurt at all. LWRC needed to move from where it was in VA to expand so moving to MA wouldn't have hurt my feelings one bit. An added bonus was I had met a stripper up there that I was banging for a while so we would have been closer...
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Old August 15, 2018, 13:47   #32
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Yeah, I've been following that silliness but that's what you get when you sell out to big corporations for a payday. I was looking forward to a payout for my shares plus a limited employment contract that I was pretty certain would be extended when I proved my value. If not, having S&W as an employer on my resume wouldn't have hurt at all. LWRC needed to move from where it was in VA to expand so moving to MA wouldn't have hurt my feelings one bit. An added bonus was I had met a stripper up there that I was banging for a while so we would have been closer...
Well, at least you are honest, I figured there was pussy involved

I though really don't see moving up an NFA operation from a Free State to a Commie one will result in anything but implosion of that sector just to keep it all under a common roof.

I can understand some of these companies are deeply anchored in New England much as the English industry was in Birmingham & London but times change friend. Were I Colt or S&W I'd be moving certain operations to the midwest as a new division.

oh' MA eats Donkey turds
be glad to be where you are.
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Old August 16, 2018, 09:13   #33
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I would move a firearms company near a bigger southern city as will be the last hold outs on state laws infringing on gun ownership. Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, Chattanooga, etc have the infrastructure, labor force and strong right to carry along with "stand your ground" laws. Find it odd that in all likelihood Amazon will be moving to Georgia bit the largest airport on the planet along with many medium size airports plus port city of Savannah being so close its a good place to be.

Heating a facility the size that is being submitted to planning & zoning would cost huge money up north though the air conditioning will run steady five months of the year. We have few hurricanes, tornados, almost no earthquake danger and maybe one snow storm per year that affects traffic. Can't believe how many automotive sub assembly plants we have now along with GM, Ford and Kia assembly plants. Throw in Lockheed Martin and Coca-Cola ATL is unrecognizable from 20 years ago. Even in process of changing Confederate Ave and all other streets that are politically incorrect these days.

And PLENTY of strip clubs for Gman and have a friend that works for the Federal Reserve who knows them all and usually dates or has live in strippers most of his life. Amazing how a good salary, nice car and home keeps him in 19 to 25 year strippers still as he begins to look at his 60's. Probably cheaper than a wife in long run bit his life seems stressful.
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Old August 21, 2018, 13:25   #34
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I did a test with my OSW SBR FAL back in 2009.
147 & 150 gr = 2,400 fps string average
165 gr = 2,350 average
180 gr = 2,275

Same day, weather condition also did an 16" Ak and a Krinkov.
124 gr
Romanian build averaged 2,351
Krinkov averaged = 1,990

When I krono them loads I wasn't trying to make any point or comparing guns...just testing a bunch of my guns, and these 3 were done the same day that I have cataloged and shit.


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This is info I was looking for. Thank you.

I'll have to dig though the thread more later. Thanks for the input all.
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