Shooting steel ammo

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

Combloc 5.45 and 7.62 has a different case-body angle.

7.62mm x 39, M43, was actually designed in 1943-44 for a brass case. Production switched to steel exclusively to steel much later, around the same time they the switched case material of 7.62mm x 54R, which also has a fairly steep body angle.

The 5.45 x 39 actually has a body angle less than many brass case designs.

Personally, I have never had any problems with Hornady Match, nor I have seen any other problems with it.

[STG_58_guy]

Originally Posted by lysanderxiii

Yes, I am.

Years of study and a good understanding of the properties of the typical mild steel used in cartridge cases, usually 1025, 1030 and similar; and review of just about all the available reports on US tested steel cartridge case test done since 1940.

Neck sealing is not really the major problem with steel, the chamber pressures in high power small arms cartridges is more than sufficient to deform the neck and adequately seal the chamber. Do the calculations:

Yield strength: 53,000 psi (1025 steel) vs 44,000 psi (cartridge brass)
(you can find the rest of the relevant physical properties on-line)

...

I find your answer curious. The material property of interest in this case is elongation at fracture. Brass, depending on the alloy, is about 4-5 times greater than steel. That assumes the steel is annealed. If it is work hardened, the steel is even worse. But you talk about tensile strength and modulus.

I would like to read this study where the suitability of steel case ammo for use in FALs is addressed. Perhaps you can site it?

[RG Coburn]

"I would like to read this study where the suitability of steel case ammo for use in FALs is addressed. Perhaps you can site it? "

It shouldn't matter which .308 caliber rifle it is fired in;if its crap,it should fail in any rifle with a spec chamber. Question should be,why only the FAL? What about the G3? The M14? Or bolt guns?

[12v71]

This^^^^ been thinking about trying some of the better steel in my CETME.

[TerryN]

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

"Then one round nearly blew up the rifle. It was a BAD round."

Is that like nearly getting a girl pregnant?

I wonder for what rifle were the French loading 06 rounds? MG rounds maybe? I can't remember them ever fielding a 30-06 rifle.

Doubtless for the numerous M1 Garands that the U.S. gave/sold to them.

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by STG_58_guy

I find your answer curious. The material property of interest in this case is elongation at fracture. Brass, depending on the alloy, is about 4-5 times greater than steel. That assumes the steel is annealed. If it is work hardened, the steel is even worse. But you talk about tensile strength and modulus.

I would like to read this study where the suitability of steel case ammo for use in FALs is addressed. Perhaps you can site it?

I find you curious response curious....

I stated "you can find the rest of the relevant physical properties on-line" and gave the tensile strength so you could find the relevant properties, because as you should know, all of the physical properties are referenced against the yield strength. And, as you also should know, in this case, you want the annealed properties.

Elongation to failure? If you did the numbers, you would see that the neck expansion for .003 to .004 diametrical expansion does not exceed the capability of annealed 1025 or 1030 steel.

Is the steel in annealed? . . . .

You do realized the brass case required the neck to be annealed while the head needs to be fairly hard. Why would you think that maintaining a hardness gradient would not be possible or desirable with steel?



As to the FAL... What peculiar properties does a FAL possess that would make it fundamentally different from any other gas-operated rifle? If this were about the G-3, I could see the point.

[RG Coburn]

Originally Posted by lysanderxiii

As to the FAL... What peculiar properties does a FAL possess that would make it fundamentally different from any other gas-operated rifle? If this were about the G-3, I could see the point.

My point: is it a result of the tipping-bolt with rear locking log,making the bolt somewhat more prone to flexing and overall failure when cases separate? Never heard of an SKS doing it,but its a different cartridge,with different pressures. And I've shot a lot of steel cased ammo thru the SKS. I have heard or the Enfield No 1 and No4 having a somewhat "springy" bolt arrangement,being rear lugged.I think it was PO Ackely that tried to blow up an Arisaka action,but couldn't..it being front lugged. Ever heard of a Mosin Nagant having its bolt shoved back and sproinging out the receiver,because of a failed steel case? I've had cases crack on the Nagant,shooting Albanian and other older brass case,never even knew it happened until I started picking up spent cases.
I like the FAL design,its a nice shooting,ergonomic design.Everything feels right,and in the right place. But like Morris the cat,she's a finicky eater.

[STG_58_guy]

Originally Posted by lysanderxiii

I find you curious response curious....

I stated "you can find the rest of the relevant physical properties on-line" and gave the tensile strength so you could find the relevant properties, because as you should know, all of the physical properties are referenced against the yield strength. And, as you also should know, in this case, you want the annealed properties.

Elongation to failure? If you did the numbers, you would see that the neck expansion for .003 to .004 diametrical expansion does not exceed the capability of annealed 1025 or 1030 steel.

Is the steel in annealed? . . . .

You do realized the brass case required the neck to be annealed while the head needs to be fairly hard. Why would you think that maintaining a hardness gradient would not be possible or desirable with steel?



As to the FAL... What peculiar properties does a FAL possess that would make it fundamentally different from any other gas-operated rifle? If this were about the G-3, I could see the point.

So, no study defending the use of steel case ammo in an FAL?

Yes, I realize brass 7.62 x 51 cases are annealed at the shoulder. The rest is work hardened during forming. It will still stretch a lot more than steel before it ruptures.

Elongation is only weakly correlated to tensile strength or modulus. It is far more dependant on the alloy and strain history. I'm not convinced you were aware of this. What kind of engineer are you?

[Augdog]

This: http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412524

If you want to shoot steel, shoot it, it's your business. If I had a FAL that head spaced snugly on a 308 gauge I would not fret it to much. We see a lot of case head separations in both Brass and Steel and they are almost always due to excessive head-space.

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by STG_58_guy

So, no study defending the use of steel case ammo in an FAL?

Yes, I realize brass 7.62 x 51 cases are annealed at the shoulder. The rest is work hardened during forming. It will still stretch a lot more than steel before it ruptures.

Elongation is only weakly correlated to tensile strength or modulus. It is far more dependant on the alloy and strain history. I'm not convinced you were aware of this. What kind of engineer are you?

Why are so hung up elongation percent at rupture? Have you done any of the calculations? If so what strains do you get? Are they anywhere near the rupture point? Have you done even the most basic calculations to see if the case neck, shoulder and upper body seal against the chamber? Why do you balk at what is a simple first year materials class calculation. You essentially have an open ended thick walled cylinder surrounding a thin walled cylinder that is inflated to, let's say, 45,000 psi. The pertinent material properties are available, including, if you want, percent elongation at break.

In all of the numerous tests conducted, neck splits were never a problem, either safety or functional. In one test encountered 47 of them (in 26,000 plus rounds fired), in another test 30,000 round were fired with 78 neck splits, and all were deemed correctable with improved processing. None cause any interruption in firing, and they none were noticed until the inspection of the spent cases.

In the hundreds of thousands of steel cased rounds test fired over the years in the US, the one problem that did not cause functional problems was neck splitting. Analysis of the failures always revealed a score or seam at the split. They encountered problems, to be sure, but that was never one that caused functional problems. And, none of the encountered problems were unsurmountable, in the M16 test, steel cased ammunition actually had a lower failure rate than the brass control ammunition, (1 as opposed to 2 in over 25,000 rounds, yeah, not statistically relevant, but it does show that steel cases can be just as reliable).

This stress-strain diagram shows the basic problem, and why yield strength and modulus are the more important properties:



For the same modulus, a lower yield strength will result in insufficient recovery, while a lower modulus, even with a lower yield strength, can in some cases result in more recovery. The rupture strain is well far to the right, way off the plot.

In the case of aluminum in a 30mm x 173 case, you can see the effects of differing moduli:



A More Rational Approach for Analyzing and Designing the Steel Cartridge and Chamber Interface, Rock Island Arsenal

Steel Cartridge Case, Caliber .30, Frankford Arsenal

7.62mm Heat Treated Steel Cartridge Case, Frankford Arsenal

Design and Manufacture of Steel Cartridge Cases, Frankford Arsenal

Steel Cartridge Cases, Caliber .30, Fabricated From 35% Carbon Steel, Frankford Arsenal

Development of a 7.62mm Cold-Worked Steel Cartridge Case, Frankford Arsenal

Rupture Pressures for Metal Cartridge Cases, Ballistics Research Laboratory

Manufacture of Steel Case Small Arms Ammunition Dynamit AG, Stadelim & Nurnberg, Report, Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee

Steel Cartridge Case Plant Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre, Herstal-lez-Liege, Beligum, Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee

30mm GAU-8 Thin-Wall Steel Cartridge Case, Amron Corporation

Finite Element Analysis of 30mm Cartridge Case, Army Research Laboratory

Product Improvement Test of 7.62mm M80 Ball and M62 Tracer Ammunition Assembled with Steel Cartridge Case, Aberdeen Proving Grounds

Product Improvement Test of Steel Cases for 7.62-mm Cartridges - Final Report, Aberdeen Proving Grounds

A Test of Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .50, Assembled with Steel Cartridge Cases, Aberdeen Proving Grounds

Product Improvement Test of 5.56-mm Steel-Cased Ammunition - Final Report, Aberdeen Proving Grounds

Product Improvement Test of Steel Cases for 7.62mm Cartridges Under Arctic Winter Conditions, U. S. Army Arctic Test Center

7.62mm Lightweight Small Caliber Ammunition (LSCA), Army Research Laboratory

7.62 mm Lightweight Small Caliber Ammunition (LSCA), Army Research Laboratory

All of these explain why and how steel cartridge cases can be made to have similar properties to brass cartridge case, performance wise, not exact, but sufficiently similar so as not to result unsafe conditions, or have major reliability issues (with the caveat that the case is made properly).

You tell us what fundamental difference could cause steel cases to work in a variety of automatic weapons ranging from M14s, M16s, M1919s (converted to shoot 7.62mm), and M134s, in 7.62mm NATO; Gew-43s, MG-42s, MG-34s, FG-42s, M1919s, M1s, M1918s, and AA-52s, all rimless cases with similar body taper and neck diameter, and even the M2 in .50 BMG, but, not function in a FAL?

(I know of at least one possibility, but let's see how smart you are.)

[bigstick61]

Originally Posted by hkshooter

The two rounds are interchangeable AFAIC. Fook naysayers.

Funny, I bet there are folks who shoot steel with a "never had a problem, it's all BS" attitude who will piss, moan, and swear shooting .308 in a 7.62x51 will blow it up.
Same goes for .223 and 5.56 argument starters.

I recall reading a work by someone done several years ago that pretty much debunked the idea that there is a significant difference between the two.

[STG_58_guy]

Originally Posted by lysanderxiii

Why are so hung up elongation percent at rupture? Have you done any of the calculations? If so what strains do you get? Are they anywhere near the rupture point? Have you done even the most basic calculations to see if the case neck, shoulder and upper body seal against the chamber? Why do you balk at what is a simple first year materials class calculation. You essentially have an open ended thick walled cylinder surrounding a thin walled cylinder that is inflated to, let's say, 45,000 psi. The pertinent material properties are available, including, if you want, percent elongation at break.

In all of the numerous tests conducted, neck splits were never a problem, either safety or functional. In one test encountered 47 of them (in 26,000 plus rounds fired), in another test 30,000 round were fired with 78 neck splits, and all were deemed correctable with improved processing. None cause any interruption in firing, and they none were noticed until the inspection of the spent cases.

In the hundreds of thousands of steel cased rounds test fired over the years in the US, the one problem that did not cause functional problems was neck splitting. Analysis of the failures always revealed a score or seam at the split. They encountered problems, to be sure, but that was never one that caused functional problems. And, none of the encountered problems were unsurmountable, in the M16 test, steel cased ammunition actually had a lower failure rate than the brass control ammunition, (1 as opposed to 2 in over 25,000 rounds, yeah, not statistically relevant, but it does show that steel cases can be just as reliable).

This stress-strain diagram shows the basic problem, and why yield strength and modulus are the more important properties:



For the same modulus, a lower yield strength will result in insufficient recovery, while a lower modulus, even with a lower yield strength, can in some cases result in more recovery. The rupture strain is well far to the right, way off the plot.

In the case of aluminum in a 30mm x 173 case, you can see the effects of differing moduli:



A More Rational Approach for Analyzing and Designing the Steel Cartridge and Chamber Interface, Rock Island Arsenal

Steel Cartridge Case, Caliber .30, Frankford Arsenal

7.62mm Heat Treated Steel Cartridge Case, Frankford Arsenal

Design and Manufacture of Steel Cartridge Cases, Frankford Arsenal

Steel Cartridge Cases, Caliber .30, Fabricated From 35% Carbon Steel, Frankford Arsenal

Development of a 7.62mm Cold-Worked Steel Cartridge Case, Frankford Arsenal

Rupture Pressures for Metal Cartridge Cases, Ballistics Research Laboratory

Manufacture of Steel Case Small Arms Ammunition Dynamit AG, Stadelim & Nurnberg, Report, Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee

Steel Cartridge Case Plant Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre, Herstal-lez-Liege, Beligum, Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee

30mm GAU-8 Thin-Wall Steel Cartridge Case, Amron Corporation

Finite Element Analysis of 30mm Cartridge Case, Army Research Laboratory

Product Improvement Test of 7.62mm M80 Ball and M62 Tracer Ammunition Assembled with Steel Cartridge Case, Aberdeen Proving Grounds

Product Improvement Test of Steel Cases for 7.62-mm Cartridges - Final Report, Aberdeen Proving Grounds

A Test of Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .50, Assembled with Steel Cartridge Cases, Aberdeen Proving Grounds

Product Improvement Test of 5.56-mm Steel-Cased Ammunition - Final Report, Aberdeen Proving Grounds

Product Improvement Test of Steel Cases for 7.62mm Cartridges Under Arctic Winter Conditions, U. S. Army Arctic Test Center

7.62mm Lightweight Small Caliber Ammunition (LSCA), Army Research Laboratory

7.62 mm Lightweight Small Caliber Ammunition (LSCA), Army Research Laboratory

All of these explain why and how steel cartridge cases can be made to have similar properties to brass cartridge case, performance wise, not exact, but sufficiently similar so as not to result unsafe conditions, or have major reliability issues (with the caveat that the case is made properly).

You tell us what fundamental difference could cause steel cases to work in a variety of automatic weapons ranging from M14s, M16s, M1919s (converted to shoot 7.62mm), and M134s, in 7.62mm NATO; Gew-43s, MG-42s, MG-34s, FG-42s, M1919s, M1s, M1918s, and AA-52s, all rimless cases with similar body taper and neck diameter, and even the M2 in .50 BMG, but, not function in a FAL?

(I know of at least one possibility, but let's see how smart you are.)

That was really long. Are you going to disclose a) what kind of engineer you are and b) which one of those articles addresses steel case ammo in an FAL? I'm guessing electrical.

[MadMike32]

Originally Posted by STG_58_guy

That was really long. Are you going to disclose a) what kind of engineer you are and b) which one of those articles addresses steel case ammo in an FAL? I'm guessing electrical.

Dude, drop the ad hominem. It's juvenile. No one gives a shit that you're an engineer if you can't produce data backing up your argument. Hell, the fact that I was well on my way to getting a bachelor's in MET should demonstrate that that alone is worthless, because I'm a goddamn idiot.
And aside from headspacing issues with garage-built guns, haven't we established that FAL's aren't especially vulnerable to case failure compared to other rifles? Unless you can refute that, it shouldn't make a difference.

In any case, I think we can all agree not to shoot shit like TulAmmo, simply because it's poor quality. But that does not mean that ALL steel-cased ammo is dangerous. That would be as foolish as saying that because someone's Century blew up, all FAL's are inherently bombs.

[Brian in MN]

Originally Posted by lysanderxiii

The first three are French. .

lysanderxiii, do you know what the purple tipped French round is?

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by STG_58_guy

That was really long. Are you going to disclose a) what kind of engineer you are and b) which one of those articles addresses steel case ammo in an FAL? I'm guessing electrical.

Not EE. If I said I was the kind that wears overalls, a floppy hat and runs a steam locomotive, what difference would it make?

I am curious why you refuse to do some simple engineering to back-up your claim that the elastic properties of steel are insufficient to expand and seal a chamber neck.

Unless you know what the result will be.....

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by Brian in MN

lysanderxiii, do you know what the purple tipped French round is?

AP, I am told, non-standard, though.

[STG_58_guy]

Originally Posted by MadMike32

Dude, drop the ad hominem. It's juvenile. No one gives a shit that you're an engineer if you can't produce data backing up your argument. Hell, the fact that I was well on my way to getting a bachelor's in MET should demonstrate that that alone is worthless, because I'm a goddamn idiot.
And aside from headspacing issues with garage-built guns, haven't we established that FAL's aren't especially vulnerable to case failure compared to other rifles? Unless you can refute that, it shouldn't make a difference.

In any case, I think we can all agree not to shoot shit like TulAmmo, simply because it's poor quality. But that does not mean that ALL steel-cased ammo is dangerous. That would be as foolish as saying that because someone's Century blew up, all FAL's are inherently bombs.

I'll say whatever I want. Your self assessment seems pretty reasonable.

Many reputable sources claim steel case ammo is discouraged for use in FALs. I understand in principle why that may be true. It may be dangerous, and my personal experience bears that out. So it's not my job to prove it's dangerous, it is the proponent's duty to show it's safe. You may notice that nobody is providing that evidence. And in the years I've been here, in the ten or twenty times this topic comes up, nobody has ever provided that evidence.

In my professional career I've run into plenty of "engineers" who were trying to practice in a field in which they weren't formally trained. We call those people frauds. They get people hurt.

You go ahead and load steel case ammo in FAL. Ignore the expertise warning you against it. Just don't do it while I'm near you at the range.

I'll give you one more little clue before I go. If you reload, you know you have to resize the case. You know that if you reload a case too many times, it will rupture. If your headspace is too long, you will be able to see evidence of elongation in the ejected shell. Elongation matters, in fact, it is critical to the function of a shell, despite opinions to the contrary.

[STG_58_guy]

Originally Posted by lysanderxiii

Not EE. If I said I was the kind that wears overalls, a floppy hat and runs a steam locomotive, what difference would it make?

I am curious why you refuse to do some simple engineering to back-up your claim that the elastic properties of steel are insufficient to expand and seal a chamber neck.

Unless you know what the result will be.....

If you look back through my posts, I'd like to know where you get the idea that I am talking about sealing the chamber neck. I think you have me confused with somebody else.

[hkshooter]

Originally Posted by STG_58_guy

If you look back through my posts, I'd like to know where you get the idea that I am talking about sealing the chamber neck. I think you have me confused with somebody else.

Post #17

[STG_58_guy]

Originally Posted by hkshooter

Post #17

You are a ******* idiot. Nothing in that post refers to the case neck. **** you and **** this forum, im tired of dealing with ******* idiots, blow your asses up if that is your wish. Bye.

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by STG_58_guy

If you look back through my posts, I'd like to know where you get the idea that I am talking about sealing the chamber neck. I think you have me confused with somebody else.

Look harder:

Originally Posted by STG_58_guy

As mentioned above, brass can stretch a lot better than steel without fracturing so it makes a great gas seal at the neck and the back end can stretch to accommodate long chambers.

You do bring up another interesting engineering problem:

How much more headspace allowance can you get with brass than steel before the head pops off?

Not that much, if any, while brass is stretchier, steel is stronger.

Assume the case is a simple cylindrical tube with a closed end, and the last .100 inch ahead of the rim is totally unsupported and free to move backwards the amount of headspace difference between the chamber and case, while the shoulder is fixed. You can make the problem more complicated if you want and account for friction, but then you need to know how much lubricity (or lack thereof) the steel case lacquer (or polymer) coating contributes...

Here, you are correct, percent elongation at break is going to be a factor, full hard cartridge brass has an elongation at break of about 10%, mild steel hardened and tempered is around 8.5%... but the tensile strength of the two is about 75 ksi for full hard brass and 95 ksi for hardened mild steel.

[hueyville]

Most of my steel case combloc ammo sits in sealed tins and wooden cases waiting for a day have no other choice but to shoot it. Much is steel jacket, steel core, corrosive. Reload a lot of brass washed steel cases in 7.62×39 with 160 grain cast lead gas check bullets using Reloader 7 and AA2230. 10% is fired in combloc rifles designed for steel case ammo but only for testing purposes whenever a new batch comes off the press to make sure it manages to feed, fire and extract 100% then the other 90% goes in locker with the other steel case combloc loaded ammo for the day have no other choice. Also only use brass washed, laquer coated and not polymer coated and below link has an article plus others explaining better than I can why. Have a source for once fired boxer primed brass 7.62×39 cases that by time shove a primer, powder and cast bullet in, is WAY freaking cheaper than even the cheapest steel case ammo and get more loadings per case with them than with most rifles. Thus even in my rifles designed for steel still prefer to shoot brass.

Why? Over a lifetime of watching moving steel parts wear on other steel parts versus brass wearing on steel my hillbilly, redneck, unedgumekated, ignorant self has noticed whether brass, or other non ferrous metal, the steel in which the softer metal bears against shows less wear in my little corner of the world. My rifles are expensive and ammunition is relatively cheap compared to rifles, especially for those of us who reload.

I don't have unlimited rounds or rifles to purposely destroy rifles to determine for myself but these folks seem to and everytime they test steel versus brass in real world conditions as opposed to computer modeling or engineers formulas steel just seems to plain suck.

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/

Which Ammo Was Most Reliable?

The data which will probably be most interesting to everyone who reads this article is how often each rifle malfunctioned. To satisfy that particular thirst, here are the basic results:

Federal: 10,000 rounds, 0 malfunctions.
Brown Bear: 10,000 rounds, 9 malfunctions (5 stuck cases, 1 magazine-related failure to feed, 3 failures to fully cycle)
Wolf: 10,000 rounds, 15 malfunctions (stuck cases)
Tula: DNF (6,000 rounds in alternate carbine, 3 malfunctions)

This is just one of their torture tests that always comes up with similar results. Steel cases cause more issues than brass and polymer coated steel more than lacquer coated.

Have FN FAL's, L1a1's, M1a's, AR 15's, AR 10's, HK 91's, HK 93's, CETME's, AK 47's, SKS's and more uncommon battle rifles/assault rifles and other than my 10% test ratio of steel case reloads in combloc rifles am going to shoot brass, try my best to be meticulous when reload it and don't care a tinker's d@mn about any reports from engineers, observed data from users of steel, charts, claims from manufacturers, myths or anything else. Unless a brass case round is mismanufactured or misloaded have not seen any significant issues with brass cases in steel chambers of my rifles or others in person. My rifles either cost too much or took too much effort to screw together to take any chances just to save a few cents whenever they go bang. That said very few can buy ammo or load ammo much cheaper than I do. Probably fling more cast lead down rifle barrels than most an have yet to see an issue from that practice.

Have yet to pick up a U.S. factory made round with a steel case for any rifle. Believe it has been done but in 40 years of removing from boxes and stuffing in magazines only steel cases have seen came from former Soviet countries or Asian commie countries. (The French continue to prove themselves somewhat self destructive and backwards) In the USA a country where profit is king, money lining the pockets of company owners or stock holders is primary goal, and none of the major players (except for Winchester's "USA Forged" line and Freedom Munitions "American Steel" in 9mm minor caliber only) are using it to increase profits is one of the "signs" that for now will use as continue to be an ammo snob in effort to treat my rifles as well as possible over the long term. Shoot steel and if it doesn't work out then it's own it's user, my guess if not seen a problem yet it due to lack of serious number of rounds downrange in your FAL. For all you steel lovers please make some chamber casts immediately, every 2,000 rounds make another and in 10,000 rounds post up pictures of your chamber casts being measured. I don't need an engineering degree to tell you what the result will be. If your an anal science/engineer geek shoot a matched rifle side by side with brass doing the same casts and measurements. A little effort with the Google task bar is enough for me not to need to destroy a rifle to prove my beliefs.

Question please: Anyone in here had to remove a stuck case from head shearing off from both a steel and brass case in a rifle chamber? Would like to hear if one were easier to remove than the other. Only had one such instance in my life 20+ years ago when tried to get too many loadings per case.

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by hueyville

... in combloc rifles designed for steel case ammo ...

Common misconception. The Soviet AK47, SKS, and PK were designed when the Soviets were still making brass cased ammunition. They did not switch to exclusive steel cased ammunition production until the mid to late 1950s...

Originally Posted by hueyville

... only use brass washed, laquer coated and not polymer coated and below link has an article plus others explaining better than I can why. ...

Actually, the type and quality of the coating is more important that whether or not it is lacquer or polymer. All US 25mm and some 30mm ammunition is steel cased without copper wash and just a lacquer coating, there are a number qualification tests done showing the wrong type of lacquer will cause problems. Guess what it does? It comes off in the chamber and builds up to a sticky mess.

Originally Posted by hueyville

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/

This is just one of their torture tests that always comes up with similar results. Steel cases cause more issues than brass and polymer coated steel more than lacquer coated.

I have never seen any other tests done by them with similar results, just this one...

Leaving aside the quality of Wolf and Tula versus Federal:

http://m14forum.com/ammunition/19775...-bi-metal.html

Originally Posted by hueyville

Unless a brass case round is mismanufactured or misloaded have not seen any significant issues with brass cases ...

Given the primary source of steel cased is from manufacturers with spotty quality records and the good military ammunition loaded with steel cases tested did not encounter major problems, I would say the above is true for ALL ammunition...

Originally Posted by hueyville

Have yet to pick up a U.S. factory made round with a steel case for any rifle. Believe it has been done but in 40 years of removing from boxes and stuffing in magazines only steel cases have seen came from former Soviet countries or Asian commie countries. (The French continue to prove themselves somewhat self destructive and backwards)...

While everyone likes to make fun of the French, they spent more per GDP on military research that most other European countries. And, steel cases are very popular in calibers larger than 20mm, so there must be some benefits.

Originally Posted by hueyville

Question please: Anyone in here had to remove a stuck case from head shearing off from both a steel and brass case in a rifle chamber? Would like to hear if one were easier to remove than the other. Only had one such instance in my life 20+ years ago when tried to get too many loadings per case.

If you do not have a broken case extractor, either is a a very difficult, labor intensive process, with one, either type is quickly done.

[hkshooter]

Originally Posted by STG_58_guy

You are a ******* idiot. Nothing in that post refers to the case neck. **** you and **** this forum, im tired of dealing with ******* idiots, blow your asses up if that is your wish. Bye.

Was that really called for?
I'm on the side of the argument that says to avoid steel in the FAL so in general agreement with you. I simply showed where you had in fact made a comment about the case neck. If that causes you some sort of grief, I'm sorry. Both posts are yours, feel free to give yourself an ulcer all you like.

[notfrommt]

Nobody in their right mind uses 25mm performance to justify using steel cased 7.62x51 ammunition.

[W.E.G.]

Somebody asked about the joy of removing steel cases from chambers after the extractor rips the rim off.

I even tried two different types of Wolf steel case. One was the brownish laquer-coat, and the other was the grayish (polymer?) coat.

After my first fuckedrangetrip with steel in the AR15, I took a cleaning rod with me on the second fuckedrangetrip in order to be prepared to rod-out the ripped-rim cases.

The extrator ripped the rim, and I easily rodded-out the spent case.

Then I fired a couple more shots, and ripped another rim. The rod was still pretty ******* hot from the previous insertion.

I fired another shot, and ripped ANOTHER rim. Now the rod was blazing hot from the second insertion. That sucked. That really sucked.

At the time, I had a SAR-3, which fired the steel-case ammo just fine. I didn't like that rifle very much, because the trigger and sights were basic shit. I posted a thread here and/or ARFCOM inviting ANYBODY to join me at the NRA range so we could blast the rest of Wolf steel-case .223 downrange. I offered free ammo (several hundred rounds still in my supply), and I offered to pay their range fees.

Nobody loves me.

I got ZERO takers.

Do gun owners hate actually SHOOTING guns that much?

Maybe they thought it was just a ploy for me to get them in the parking garage and give 'em the ol'

I ended up shooting a few boxes of that stuff in the SAR-3 while the fudds at the private range gave me the stink-eye.

Finally sold what was left of it on VA Guntrader for cheap.

Here's how it performed in two different AR's.
One was a 10" SBR.
The other was a 20" in standard A2 rifle configuration.
Both of them choked on both flavors of Wolf steel case.

[lew]

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

I wonder for what rifle were the French loading 06 rounds? MG rounds maybe? I can't remember them ever fielding a 30-06 rifle.

Originally Posted by TerryN

Doubtless for the numerous M1 Garands that the U.S. gave/sold to them.

Yep. The French received about 225,000 each M1 and M1917 rifles, plus a similar amount of M1 Carbines (in addition to the 35,000 they received in the early '50's) in 1954 as part of the Military Assistance Program since they were still a full NATO member. The rifles were intended for use in Europe by France's occupation troops in SW Germany, but many made their way in the hands of second-line units to North Africa, much to the ire of the US. The US rifles were replaced as soon as stocks of the superior MAS Mle. 49/56's filtered through starting in late 1958, but troops in Germany didn't replace their M1's until 1963.

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

A long post about some poor quality ammunition...

Yes, Tula and Wolf made in Russia are on my "ammunition not to buy list", for many reasons. As is ALL military surplus ammunition older than about 10 years (and just about all of that is brass). This is because how well it was stored, and why it was surplussed in the first place, don't fill me with confidence.

People see a picture of a blown up rifle and a picture of a ruptured brass case, and it's: "oh, the manufacturer of the ammunition screwed up..." "that's poor quality ammo..." etc.

People see a picture of a blown up rifle and a picture of a ruptured steel case and it's: "steel cases can't be trusted..." "steel cases are bad..." etc.

How many of you would run down to Wal-Mart and buy boxes and boxes of .308 Tula if it were brass cased? (And cost about $0.04 a round more, the price difference between brass and steel.)

Sorry, but I wouldn't. Same reason I don't buy remanufactured ammunition with brass cases.

There are reasons why poor quality ammunition performs poorly, however, the material of the case is not the cause of poor quality ammunition performing poorly, though.

[hueyville]

lysanderxiii, Lucky Gunner did a test where took half dozen or so rifles and fired 20,000 down bore of each to judge barrel life of each. The Smith M&P 15 melonite barrel on their entry level rifles did best and still passed minimum spec. They sectioned each barrel at end of test by splitting down middle with a band saw. It was very interesting. If search their archives are a lot of articles about steel vs brass case, bimetal vs copper jackets, Box of Truth and Truth About Guns and many others covering these subjects. I try to filter their sponsors out of posted results and don't lean on one uTube video or one source about a subject. Me not buying steel cases just leaves more for others.

WEG, am talking about entire case head separation, not just failure of case at extractor location where there is no web section left to use a rod, just case wall and neck. For others, I have broken case extractors for 5.56, 7.62×39, 7.62×51 and others. Just not shot enough steel to have a complete separation to see how bad it sucks to remove.

As another said, hard to compare 25mm and up to field artillery shells to rifle ammo cases. Need to be in the same size range reasonably. Would pay attention to results from 7.62×54 compared to x51 or x39 to 5.56 and even 5.56 compared against 7.62 in steel vs brass. I personally only buy bimetal jacket bullets when find sale on Lake City or other U.S. surplus for long term storage, trading or neckbearding. Have no problems archiving 1950's vintage combloc steel case, steel core, corrosive primer ammo for my combloc weapons. Have dozens and dozens of sealed metal tins and no worries. If it goes bad ohh poo... will grab up another rifle and case of ammo.

[SAFN49]

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

"I would like to read this study where the suitability of steel case ammo for use in FALs is addressed. Perhaps you can site it? "

It shouldn't matter which .308 caliber rifle it is fired in;if its crap,it should fail in any rifle with a spec chamber. Question should be,why only the FAL? What about the G3? The M14? Or bolt guns?

[Tuhlmann]

Originally Posted by GaryH

https://www.dsarms.com/t-ammunitionwarning.aspx

I noticed that DSA doesn't recommend against steel cased ammunition in general, but rather steel cased ammunition made in China and Russia specifically. Just thought I'd point that out.

Not sure if there are any other readily available sources of steel cased ammo in the US. For what I remember seeing the Hornady Steel Match go for I don't see any practical advantage over comparably priced quality brass, but I'm not an engineer.

[RG Coburn]

Originally Posted by SAFN49

Well,looking at the ammo,and seeing it's a Garand....again...the Garand requires a specific pressure curve ammo. I doubt Herters made-in-Russia .308 falls into the specification. And its probably crappy ammo. But...would that same exact round do the exact same thing in any other rifle? Like say,a .308 chambered 98 Mauser? Its a question that is relevant,but hard to duplicate,as that round has already been fired.
I find WEG's photos a little ironic,because having an AR in .223(or 5.56) I have had a plague of stuck cases with those damned guns,to the point where I bought other uppers,and had the same damned problem,to the point where I would not trust an AR,in .223 at least,as a "go-to" rifle for dealing with attacking martians. In fact,almost every .223 caliber rifle I've ever owned has given me problems,from the Ruger Mini Range rifle,with its pizza-sized groups,to the NEF single shot,again,not very accurate,and prone to sticking cases,to my current AR with multiple uppers,though accurate,is a case sticking bitch. I've NEVER had a problem with an SKS or an AK having stuck cases. Only other gun that's given that problem is the Mosin Nagants with the sticky bolt issue,which is often easy to fix with a cleaning of the chamber.
But yeah,as far an any M1-based rifle...never feed it anything but spec ammo.

[W.E.G.]

Originally Posted by Tuhlmann

I noticed that DSA doesn't recommend against steel cased ammunition in general, but rather steel cased ammunition made in China and Russia specifically. Just thought I'd point that out.

Not sure if there are any other readily available sources of steel cased ammo in the US. For what I remember seeing the Hornady Steel Match go for I don't see any practical advantage over comparably priced quality brass, but I'm not an engineer.

Hornady report
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ood-after-all/

[RG Coburn]

Remember all those thousands upon thousands of crates of that nice steel cased Romanian 8mm Mauser ammo that came it years back? Has there been plagues of blown-up rifles attributed to that ammo?
I see Wolf now makes a steel cased .303 Brit round. Anybodies Enfields being blown up by this ammo?

[meltblown]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

Hornady report
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ood-after-all/

Notice it's mentioned the cases are primed and importing (I think... didn't study it), my only serious AR build is an X39 that isn't allowed to shoot anything but Russian junk.

The purported fix was always a heavier hammer spring. Nope still got no bangs about 10% of the time. Basically realized that there were slightly longer FPs to light off the Russian ammo. Instead of a hard to get FP, just shaved about .007 off the ass of the bolt.

Next bought a Giessle trigger group. Was wondering if since I installed a HP spring with a mil hammer that the much lighter hammer was going to bring back the issue. Nope. Pulled the HD spring and never an issue with 3000 down the pipe. It seems that the primers may be slightly harder, but appears that they sit a minuscule deeper.

Always wondered if the tapered cartridge was done by Comrade K was on purpose to make it friendly to steel case ammo. Only case head separation (not rupture) I've ever experienced was .223.

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

Hornady report
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ood-after-all/

And, how are primer issues related to case material?

[Arby]

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

Well,looking at the ammo,and seeing it's a Garand....again...the Garand requires a specific pressure curve ammo.

The concerns about the pressure curve on the Garand firing cycle is almost exclusively to do with the oprod. If the pressure is too high at the wrong point in time, then the oprod may get bent. Garands are not prone to having cases rupture due to the wrong pressure curve unless the pressures are way out of proportion as to what they should be.

The round in that video looks to have been way overpressured, as does a number of other cases shown in the video.

[Tuhlmann]

Originally Posted by W.E.G.

Hornady report
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...ood-after-all/

With all due respect, the issues described in your link are not relevent to the debate on steel case ammo. Primer issues have nothing to do case material.

[SAFN49]

Originally Posted by RG Coburn

Well,looking at the ammo,and seeing it's a Garand....again...the Garand requires a specific pressure curve ammo.

It requires a specific pressure curve not to bend the op rod, not a specific pressure curve that won't separate the case head.

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by meltblown

Always wondered if the tapered cartridge was done by Comrade K was on purpose to make it friendly to steel case ammo. Only case head separation (not rupture) I've ever experienced was .223.

Brass benefits from ease of extraction with an increased case taper, as well. As stated earlier, M43 (aka 7.62 x 39), and SKS, AK and RPD were originally designed with a brass case.

Other brass cartridge case designs with high body taper to aid extraction (similar to M43):

.50 BMG
7.62mm Mosin-Nagant
.303 Britsh
8mm Lebel

Straighter case walls give better volume-to-length ratios.

[RG Coburn]

It ain't only Rusky steel damaging garands...

http://gunhub.com/m1-garand/49668-di...my-garand.html

This guy smokes his Garand with the oft-worshipped Greek ammo.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...garand-kaboom/

This guy does it with gunshow reloads...

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/v...p/IMAG0451.jpg
Here's a good one. Either out of battery or maybe a previous squib? Damn.

https://www.firearmsforum.com/firear...euser/27/11010
This one apparently doesn't like hotter loads...

[Chico&Zeus]

All I can add to this is my own experience. Shooting steel cased ammo in one day, I've had 2 case head separations that both resulted in "blown up" magazines. One of them was so bad that it cut and burned my support hand and the entire head of the case ripped off leaving the empty case in the chamber - I had to use an easy-out to remove it.

After both of the kaboom's I ordered a case of brass ammo and haven't had any problems since. I figured that the small added cost of brass was worth it if I don't have to keep buying magazines that are FUBAR from kaboom's.

I've checked my FAL's headspace and it's perfect.

As a side note, I've shot the exact same steel cased ammo in my PTR91 and have never had an issue, not saying that I never will but just interesting that it runs without issue in that gun.

[lysanderxiii]

Originally Posted by Chico&Zeus

All I can add to this is my own experience. Shooting steel cased ammo in one day, I've had 2 case head separations that both resulted in "blown up" magazines. One of them was so bad that it cut and burned my support hand and the entire head of the case ripped off leaving the empty case in the chamber - I had to use an easy-out to remove it.

After both of the kaboom's I ordered a case of brass ammo and haven't had any problems since. I figured that the small added cost of brass was worth it if I don't have to keep buying magazines that are FUBAR from kaboom's.

I've checked my FAL's headspace and it's perfect.

As a side note, I've shot the exact same steel cased ammo in my PTR91 and have never had an issue, not saying that I never will but just interesting that it runs without issue in that gun.

You didn't stop shooting on the first case separation?

I'll give you a hint, if you get a case separation, you probably need to stop and do a good assessment of the ammunition you're shooting, brass or steel.

[rarecat]

I love my FAL like I love my pets. I would never feed my pets the cheapest food available.....

I love getting a deal on good ammo but I'd rather wait for a deal then go cheap.

I also hate WalMart, I can afford to pay a little more just to avoid the place

Snob rant over....

[hkshooter]

Originally Posted by rarecat

I also hate WalMart, I can afford to pay a little more just to avoid the place

Snob rant over....

You do this too? Thought I was the only one.

[Straight Shooter]

This whole thread has me scratching the bald spot on the top of my head.

Why play Russian roulette, pun intended, with your health, life and firearms shooting steel case ammo?

Especially, when ZQI/MKE is available at the local, dare I say it, Mallmart?

Being part Scotch Irish and Yiddish, to name but a few heritages in my mix, and a Virgo. That concoction means I will pull the copper off these new fangled copper plated zinc pennies.

I've seen ZQI sell for $9.97 a box of twenty, and as low as, IIRC, $7.97. That's brass ammo! Boxer Primed, NON CORROSIVE!

I've seen posts here on FF, attesting to its reliability, functioning even with the gas port wide open.

Only Hirtenberger comes close in price. But, its Berdan primed, no easy reload. And don't forget the cost of shipping.

https://zqiammunition.com

-

-

[Chico&Zeus]

Originally Posted by lysanderxiii

You didn't stop shooting on the first case separation?

I'll give you a hint, if you get a case separation, you probably need to stop and do a good assessment of the ammunition you're shooting, brass or steel.

As the great George W. said:

“There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again.”

Yeah, I should have stopped after the first one.

[GaryH]

Originally Posted by Straight Shooter

I've seen ZQI sell for $9.97 a box of twenty, and as low as, IIRC, $7.97. That's brass ammo! Boxer Primed, NON CORROSIVE!

I've seen posts here on FF, attesting to its reliability, functioning even with the gas port wide open.

ZQI is discontinued at wally world. Only a few have any left. Been gone around here for over a year. Same with perfecta.

[Lee Carpentieri]

Wall fart used to sell the shit out of Winchester ammo about 6 years ago.. Every year at the Shot show they would show up an cut deal's with Winchester to the tune of about 10 million dollars, Then about 4 years ago they cut back to about 5.5 million dollars for 1 year, Then nothing from Winchester as they started selling Wolf,Tula and any other crappy ammo they could cut a deal with, Even Privi Partisan was their higher selling ammo leader. People around here starting seeing what Wally Fart started selling and said,HELL NO as allot had started to see what was posted on line about the shit WW was selling and most started ordering their ammo on line.

Wolf and Tula come out of the same arsenal that is an OLD Russian Govt. munitions plant. I had friends that had relatives that worked there say the employees don't get paid for months on end and if they complain, They get fired and get new employees that fast. Their forging plant to make steel cases suffers badly, They use re-Formulated tank and Artillery powder, They buy old Russian T-55 tanks and cut them up and melt the steel down for weapons shells, They say a T-55 can produce 1.1 million rounds in 7.62x39 shells.

Wolf/Tula have the same owner and importer called Vector Corp out of Conn. and it's owned by a Russian.

[1769]

Originally Posted by Lee Carpentieri

Wall fart used to sell the shit out of Winchester ammo about 6 years ago.. Every year at the Shot show they would show up an cut deal's with Winchester to the tune of about 10 million dollars, Then about 4 years ago they cut back to about 5.5 million dollars for 1 year, Then nothing from Winchester as they started selling Wolf,Tula and any other crappy ammo they could cut a deal with, Even Privi Partisan was their higher selling ammo leader. People around here starting seeing what Wally Fart started selling and said,HELL NO as allot had started to see what was posted on line about the shit WW was selling and most started ordering their ammo on line.

Wolf and Tula come out of the same arsenal that is an OLD Russian Govt. munitions plant. I had friends that had relatives that worked there say the employees don't get paid for months on end and if they complain, They get fired and get new employees that fast. Their forging plant to make steel cases suffers badly, They use re-Formulated tank and Artillery powder, They buy old Russian T-55 tanks and cut them up and melt the steel down for weapons shells, They say a T-55 can produce 1.1 million rounds in 7.62x39 shells.

Wolf/Tula have the same owner and importer called Vector Corp out of Conn. and it's owned by a Russian.

By this comment, I take it we should be supporting Wolf/Tula due to their wonderful recycling efforts.