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#51 |
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7.62mm x 39, M43, was actually designed in 1943-44 for a brass case. Production switched to steel exclusively to steel much later, around the same time they the switched case material of 7.62mm x 54R, which also has a fairly steep body angle.
The 5.45 x 39 actually has a body angle less than many brass case designs. Personally, I have never had any problems with Hornady Match, nor I have seen any other problems with it. |
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#52 | |
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I would like to read this study where the suitability of steel case ammo for use in FALs is addressed. Perhaps you can site it?
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#53 |
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"I would like to read this study where the suitability of steel case ammo for use in FALs is addressed. Perhaps you can site it? "
It shouldn't matter which .308 caliber rifle it is fired in;if its crap,it should fail in any rifle with a spec chamber. Question should be,why only the FAL? What about the G3? The M14? Or bolt guns? |
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This^^^^ been thinking about trying some of the better steel in my CETME.
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Doubtless for the numerous M1 Garands that the U.S. gave/sold to them.
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I stated "you can find the rest of the relevant physical properties on-line" and gave the tensile strength so you could find the relevant properties, because as you should know, all of the physical properties are referenced against the yield strength. And, as you also should know, in this case, you want the annealed properties. Elongation to failure? If you did the numbers, you would see that the neck expansion for .003 to .004 diametrical expansion does not exceed the capability of annealed 1025 or 1030 steel. Is the steel in annealed? . . . . You do realized the brass case required the neck to be annealed while the head needs to be fairly hard. Why would you think that maintaining a hardness gradient would not be possible or desirable with steel? As to the FAL... What peculiar properties does a FAL possess that would make it fundamentally different from any other gas-operated rifle? If this were about the G-3, I could see the point. |
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#57 | |
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I like the FAL design,its a nice shooting,ergonomic design.Everything feels right,and in the right place. But like Morris the cat,she's a finicky eater. |
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So, no study defending the use of steel case ammo in an FAL? Yes, I realize brass 7.62 x 51 cases are annealed at the shoulder. The rest is work hardened during forming. It will still stretch a lot more than steel before it ruptures. Elongation is only weakly correlated to tensile strength or modulus. It is far more dependant on the alloy and strain history. I'm not convinced you were aware of this. What kind of engineer are you?
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This: http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=412524
If you want to shoot steel, shoot it, it's your business. If I had a FAL that head spaced snugly on a 308 gauge I would not fret it to much. We see a lot of case head separations in both Brass and Steel and they are almost always due to excessive head-space.
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In all of the numerous tests conducted, neck splits were never a problem, either safety or functional. In one test encountered 47 of them (in 26,000 plus rounds fired), in another test 30,000 round were fired with 78 neck splits, and all were deemed correctable with improved processing. None cause any interruption in firing, and they none were noticed until the inspection of the spent cases. In the hundreds of thousands of steel cased rounds test fired over the years in the US, the one problem that did not cause functional problems was neck splitting. Analysis of the failures always revealed a score or seam at the split. They encountered problems, to be sure, but that was never one that caused functional problems. And, none of the encountered problems were unsurmountable, in the M16 test, steel cased ammunition actually had a lower failure rate than the brass control ammunition, (1 as opposed to 2 in over 25,000 rounds, yeah, not statistically relevant, but it does show that steel cases can be just as reliable). This stress-strain diagram shows the basic problem, and why yield strength and modulus are the more important properties: ![]() For the same modulus, a lower yield strength will result in insufficient recovery, while a lower modulus, even with a lower yield strength, can in some cases result in more recovery. The rupture strain is well far to the right, way off the plot. In the case of aluminum in a 30mm x 173 case, you can see the effects of differing moduli: ![]() A More Rational Approach for Analyzing and Designing the Steel Cartridge and Chamber Interface, Rock Island Arsenal Steel Cartridge Case, Caliber .30, Frankford Arsenal 7.62mm Heat Treated Steel Cartridge Case, Frankford Arsenal Design and Manufacture of Steel Cartridge Cases, Frankford Arsenal Steel Cartridge Cases, Caliber .30, Fabricated From 35% Carbon Steel, Frankford Arsenal Development of a 7.62mm Cold-Worked Steel Cartridge Case, Frankford Arsenal Rupture Pressures for Metal Cartridge Cases, Ballistics Research Laboratory Manufacture of Steel Case Small Arms Ammunition Dynamit AG, Stadelim & Nurnberg, Report, Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee Steel Cartridge Case Plant Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre, Herstal-lez-Liege, Beligum, Combined Intelligence Objectives Sub-Committee 30mm GAU-8 Thin-Wall Steel Cartridge Case, Amron Corporation Finite Element Analysis of 30mm Cartridge Case, Army Research Laboratory Product Improvement Test of 7.62mm M80 Ball and M62 Tracer Ammunition Assembled with Steel Cartridge Case, Aberdeen Proving Grounds Product Improvement Test of Steel Cases for 7.62-mm Cartridges - Final Report, Aberdeen Proving Grounds A Test of Cartridge, Ball, Caliber .50, Assembled with Steel Cartridge Cases, Aberdeen Proving Grounds Product Improvement Test of 5.56-mm Steel-Cased Ammunition - Final Report, Aberdeen Proving Grounds Product Improvement Test of Steel Cases for 7.62mm Cartridges Under Arctic Winter Conditions, U. S. Army Arctic Test Center 7.62mm Lightweight Small Caliber Ammunition (LSCA), Army Research Laboratory 7.62 mm Lightweight Small Caliber Ammunition (LSCA), Army Research Laboratory All of these explain why and how steel cartridge cases can be made to have similar properties to brass cartridge case, performance wise, not exact, but sufficiently similar so as not to result unsafe conditions, or have major reliability issues (with the caveat that the case is made properly). You tell us what fundamental difference could cause steel cases to work in a variety of automatic weapons ranging from M14s, M16s, M1919s (converted to shoot 7.62mm), and M134s, in 7.62mm NATO; Gew-43s, MG-42s, MG-34s, FG-42s, M1919s, M1s, M1918s, and AA-52s, all rimless cases with similar body taper and neck diameter, and even the M2 in .50 BMG, but, not function in a FAL? (I know of at least one possibility, but let's see how smart you are.) Last edited by lysanderxiii; March 20, 2017 at 23:01. |
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And aside from headspacing issues with garage-built guns, haven't we established that FAL's aren't especially vulnerable to case failure compared to other rifles? Unless you can refute that, it shouldn't make a difference. In any case, I think we can all agree not to shoot shit like TulAmmo, simply because it's poor quality. But that does not mean that ALL steel-cased ammo is dangerous. That would be as foolish as saying that because someone's Century blew up, all FAL's are inherently bombs. |
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lysanderxiii, do you know what the purple tipped French round is?
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I am curious why you refuse to do some simple engineering to back-up your claim that the elastic properties of steel are insufficient to expand and seal a chamber neck. Unless you know what the result will be..... Last edited by lysanderxiii; March 21, 2017 at 12:17. |
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Many reputable sources claim steel case ammo is discouraged for use in FALs. I understand in principle why that may be true. It may be dangerous, and my personal experience bears that out. So it's not my job to prove it's dangerous, it is the proponent's duty to show it's safe. You may notice that nobody is providing that evidence. And in the years I've been here, in the ten or twenty times this topic comes up, nobody has ever provided that evidence. In my professional career I've run into plenty of "engineers" who were trying to practice in a field in which they weren't formally trained. We call those people frauds. They get people hurt. You go ahead and load steel case ammo in FAL. Ignore the expertise warning you against it. Just don't do it while I'm near you at the range. I'll give you one more little clue before I go. If you reload, you know you have to resize the case. You know that if you reload a case too many times, it will rupture. If your headspace is too long, you will be able to see evidence of elongation in the ejected shell. Elongation matters, in fact, it is critical to the function of a shell, despite opinions to the contrary.
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#69 |
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Post #17
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You are a ******* idiot. Nothing in that post refers to the case neck. **** you and **** this forum, im tired of dealing with ******* idiots, blow your asses up if that is your wish. Bye.
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How much more headspace allowance can you get with brass than steel before the head pops off? Not that much, if any, while brass is stretchier, steel is stronger. Assume the case is a simple cylindrical tube with a closed end, and the last .100 inch ahead of the rim is totally unsupported and free to move backwards the amount of headspace difference between the chamber and case, while the shoulder is fixed. You can make the problem more complicated if you want and account for friction, but then you need to know how much lubricity (or lack thereof) the steel case lacquer (or polymer) coating contributes... Here, you are correct, percent elongation at break is going to be a factor, full hard cartridge brass has an elongation at break of about 10%, mild steel hardened and tempered is around 8.5%... but the tensile strength of the two is about 75 ksi for full hard brass and 95 ksi for hardened mild steel. Last edited by lysanderxiii; March 21, 2017 at 22:46. |
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Most of my steel case combloc ammo sits in sealed tins and wooden cases waiting for a day have no other choice but to shoot it. Much is steel jacket, steel core, corrosive. Reload a lot of brass washed steel cases in 7.62Χ39 with 160 grain cast lead gas check bullets using Reloader 7 and AA2230. 10% is fired in combloc rifles designed for steel case ammo but only for testing purposes whenever a new batch comes off the press to make sure it manages to feed, fire and extract 100% then the other 90% goes in locker with the other steel case combloc loaded ammo for the day have no other choice. Also only use brass washed, laquer coated and not polymer coated and below link has an article plus others explaining better than I can why. Have a source for once fired boxer primed brass 7.62Χ39 cases that by time shove a primer, powder and cast bullet in, is WAY freaking cheaper than even the cheapest steel case ammo and get more loadings per case with them than with most rifles. Thus even in my rifles designed for steel still prefer to shoot brass.
Why? Over a lifetime of watching moving steel parts wear on other steel parts versus brass wearing on steel my hillbilly, redneck, unedgumekated, ignorant self has noticed whether brass, or other non ferrous metal, the steel in which the softer metal bears against shows less wear in my little corner of the world. My rifles are expensive and ammunition is relatively cheap compared to rifles, especially for those of us who reload. I don't have unlimited rounds or rifles to purposely destroy rifles to determine for myself but these folks seem to and everytime they test steel versus brass in real world conditions as opposed to computer modeling or engineers formulas steel just seems to plain suck. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/bras...el-cased-ammo/ Quote:
Have FN FAL's, L1a1's, M1a's, AR 15's, AR 10's, HK 91's, HK 93's, CETME's, AK 47's, SKS's and more uncommon battle rifles/assault rifles and other than my 10% test ratio of steel case reloads in combloc rifles am going to shoot brass, try my best to be meticulous when reload it and don't care a tinker's d@mn about any reports from engineers, observed data from users of steel, charts, claims from manufacturers, myths or anything else. Unless a brass case round is mismanufactured or misloaded have not seen any significant issues with brass cases in steel chambers of my rifles or others in person. My rifles either cost too much or took too much effort to screw together to take any chances just to save a few cents whenever they go bang. That said very few can buy ammo or load ammo much cheaper than I do. Probably fling more cast lead down rifle barrels than most an have yet to see an issue from that practice. Have yet to pick up a U.S. factory made round with a steel case for any rifle. Believe it has been done but in 40 years of removing from boxes and stuffing in magazines only steel cases have seen came from former Soviet countries or Asian commie countries. (The French continue to prove themselves somewhat self destructive and backwards) In the USA a country where profit is king, money lining the pockets of company owners or stock holders is primary goal, and none of the major players (except for Winchester's "USA Forged" line and Freedom Munitions "American Steel" in 9mm minor caliber only) are using it to increase profits is one of the "signs" that for now will use as continue to be an ammo snob in effort to treat my rifles as well as possible over the long term. Shoot steel and if it doesn't work out then it's own it's user, my guess if not seen a problem yet it due to lack of serious number of rounds downrange in your FAL. For all you steel lovers please make some chamber casts immediately, every 2,000 rounds make another and in 10,000 rounds post up pictures of your chamber casts being measured. I don't need an engineering degree to tell you what the result will be. If your an anal science/engineer geek shoot a matched rifle side by side with brass doing the same casts and measurements. A little effort with the Google task bar is enough for me not to need to destroy a rifle to prove my beliefs. Question please: Anyone in here had to remove a stuck case from head shearing off from both a steel and brass case in a rifle chamber? Would like to hear if one were easier to remove than the other. Only had one such instance in my life 20+ years ago when tried to get too many loadings per case.
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#73 | |||||
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Common misconception. The Soviet AK47, SKS, and PK were designed when the Soviets were still making brass cased ammunition. They did not switch to exclusive steel cased ammunition production until the mid to late 1950s...
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Leaving aside the quality of Wolf and Tula versus Federal: http://m14forum.com/ammunition/19775...-bi-metal.html Quote:
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#74 | |
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I'm on the side of the argument that says to avoid steel in the FAL so in general agreement with you. I simply showed where you had in fact made a comment about the case neck. If that causes you some sort of grief, I'm sorry. Both posts are yours, feel free to give yourself an ulcer all you like.
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Nobody in their right mind uses 25mm performance to justify using steel cased 7.62x51 ammunition.
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#76 |
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Somebody asked about the joy of removing steel cases from chambers after the extractor rips the rim off.
I even tried two different types of Wolf steel case. One was the brownish laquer-coat, and the other was the grayish (polymer?) coat. After my first fuckedrangetrip with steel in the AR15, I took a cleaning rod with me on the second fuckedrangetrip in order to be prepared to rod-out the ripped-rim cases. The extrator ripped the rim, and I easily rodded-out the spent case. Then I fired a couple more shots, and ripped another rim. The rod was still pretty ******* hot from the previous insertion. I fired another shot, and ripped ANOTHER rim. Now the rod was blazing hot from the second insertion. That sucked. That really sucked. At the time, I had a SAR-3, which fired the steel-case ammo just fine. I didn't like that rifle very much, because the trigger and sights were basic shit. I posted a thread here and/or ARFCOM inviting ANYBODY to join me at the NRA range so we could blast the rest of Wolf steel-case .223 downrange. I offered free ammo (several hundred rounds still in my supply), and I offered to pay their range fees. Nobody loves me. I got ZERO takers. Do gun owners hate actually SHOOTING guns that much? Maybe they thought it was just a ploy for me to get them in the parking garage and give 'em the ol' ![]() I ended up shooting a few boxes of that stuff in the SAR-3 while the fudds at the private range gave me the stink-eye. Finally sold what was left of it on VA Guntrader for cheap. Here's how it performed in two different AR's. One was a 10" SBR. The other was a 20" in standard A2 rifle configuration. Both of them choked on both flavors of Wolf steel case. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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Yes, Tula and Wolf made in Russia are on my "ammunition not to buy list", for many reasons. As is ALL military surplus ammunition older than about 10 years (and just about all of that is brass). This is because how well it was stored, and why it was surplussed in the first place, don't fill me with confidence.
People see a picture of a blown up rifle and a picture of a ruptured brass case, and it's: "oh, the manufacturer of the ammunition screwed up..." "that's poor quality ammo..." etc. People see a picture of a blown up rifle and a picture of a ruptured steel case and it's: "steel cases can't be trusted..." "steel cases are bad..." etc. How many of you would run down to Wal-Mart and buy boxes and boxes of .308 Tula if it were brass cased? (And cost about $0.04 a round more, the price difference between brass and steel.) Sorry, but I wouldn't. Same reason I don't buy remanufactured ammunition with brass cases. There are reasons why poor quality ammunition performs poorly, however, the material of the case is not the cause of poor quality ammunition performing poorly, though. Last edited by lysanderxiii; March 22, 2017 at 13:34. |
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lysanderxiii, Lucky Gunner did a test where took half dozen or so rifles and fired 20,000 down bore of each to judge barrel life of each. The Smith M&P 15 melonite barrel on their entry level rifles did best and still passed minimum spec. They sectioned each barrel at end of test by splitting down middle with a band saw. It was very interesting. If search their archives are a lot of articles about steel vs brass case, bimetal vs copper jackets, Box of Truth and Truth About Guns and many others covering these subjects. I try to filter their sponsors out of posted results and don't lean on one uTube video or one source about a subject. Me not buying steel cases just leaves more for others.
WEG, am talking about entire case head separation, not just failure of case at extractor location where there is no web section left to use a rod, just case wall and neck. For others, I have broken case extractors for 5.56, 7.62Χ39, 7.62Χ51 and others. Just not shot enough steel to have a complete separation to see how bad it sucks to remove. As another said, hard to compare 25mm and up to field artillery shells to rifle ammo cases. Need to be in the same size range reasonably. Would pay attention to results from 7.62Χ54 compared to x51 or x39 to 5.56 and even 5.56 compared against 7.62 in steel vs brass. I personally only buy bimetal jacket bullets when find sale on Lake City or other U.S. surplus for long term storage, trading or neckbearding. Have no problems archiving 1950's vintage combloc steel case, steel core, corrosive primer ammo for my combloc weapons. Have dozens and dozens of sealed metal tins and no worries. If it goes bad ohh poo... will grab up another rifle and case of ammo.
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Not sure if there are any other readily available sources of steel cased ammo in the US. For what I remember seeing the Hornady Steel Match go for I don't see any practical advantage over comparably priced quality brass, but I'm not an engineer.
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Well,looking at the ammo,and seeing it's a Garand....again...the Garand requires a specific pressure curve ammo. I doubt Herters made-in-Russia .308 falls into the specification. And its probably crappy ammo. But...would that same exact round do the exact same thing in any other rifle? Like say,a .308 chambered 98 Mauser? Its a question that is relevant,but hard to duplicate,as that round has already been fired.
I find WEG's photos a little ironic,because having an AR in .223(or 5.56) I have had a plague of stuck cases with those damned guns,to the point where I bought other uppers,and had the same damned problem,to the point where I would not trust an AR,in .223 at least,as a "go-to" rifle for dealing with attacking martians. In fact,almost every .223 caliber rifle I've ever owned has given me problems,from the Ruger Mini Range rifle,with its pizza-sized groups,to the NEF single shot,again,not very accurate,and prone to sticking cases,to my current AR with multiple uppers,though accurate,is a case sticking bitch. I've NEVER had a problem with an SKS or an AK having stuck cases. Only other gun that's given that problem is the Mosin Nagants with the sticky bolt issue,which is often easy to fix with a cleaning of the chamber. But yeah,as far an any M1-based rifle...never feed it anything but spec ammo. |
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Remember all those thousands upon thousands of crates of that nice steel cased Romanian 8mm Mauser ammo that came it years back? Has there been plagues of blown-up rifles attributed to that ammo?
I see Wolf now makes a steel cased .303 Brit round. Anybodies Enfields being blown up by this ammo? |
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The purported fix was always a heavier hammer spring. Nope still got no bangs about 10% of the time. Basically realized that there were slightly longer FPs to light off the Russian ammo. Instead of a hard to get FP, just shaved about .007 off the ass of the bolt. Next bought a Giessle trigger group. Was wondering if since I installed a HP spring with a mil hammer that the much lighter hammer was going to bring back the issue. Nope. Pulled the HD spring and never an issue with 3000 down the pipe. It seems that the primers may be slightly harder, but appears that they sit a minuscule deeper. Always wondered if the tapered cartridge was done by Comrade K was on purpose to make it friendly to steel case ammo. Only case head separation (not rupture) I've ever experienced was .223.
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Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed. Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you. |
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#86 | |
Registered
FALaholic #: 70039 Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: West Harlow, NC
Posts: 437
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#87 | |
Curio & Relic
Silver Contributor
FALaholic #: 653 Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 4,791
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Quote:
The round in that video looks to have been way overpressured, as does a number of other cases shown in the video. |
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#88 | |
THAT guy
Contributor
FALaholic #: 69411 Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Here & There, WI
Posts: 2,139
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Quote:
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Future Crotchety Ol' Bastard Im saying: Think about your contribution to society. Be careful when you get into a business that extracts value. Broaden your idea about whats enough. And for Gods sake, think about who you are. - J. Bogle |
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#89 |
None
Platinum Contributor
FALaholic #: 73015 Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: No Where
Posts: 8,809
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#90 | |
Registered
FALaholic #: 70039 Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: West Harlow, NC
Posts: 437
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Quote:
Other brass cartridge case designs with high body taper to aid extraction (similar to M43): .50 BMG 7.62mm Mosin-Nagant .303 Britsh 8mm Lebel Straighter case walls give better volume-to-length ratios. |
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#91 |
Registered
FALaholic #: 27406 Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 19,872
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It ain't only Rusky steel damaging garands...
http://gunhub.com/m1-garand/49668-di...my-garand.html This guy smokes his Garand with the oft-worshipped Greek ammo. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...garand-kaboom/ This guy does it with gunshow reloads... http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/v...p/IMAG0451.jpg Here's a good one. Either out of battery or maybe a previous squib? Damn. https://www.firearmsforum.com/firear...euser/27/11010 This one apparently doesn't like hotter loads... |
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#92 |
Registered
FALaholic #: 68430 Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Peoria, AZ
Posts: 10
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All I can add to this is my own experience. Shooting steel cased ammo in one day, I've had 2 case head separations that both resulted in "blown up" magazines. One of them was so bad that it cut and burned my support hand and the entire head of the case ripped off leaving the empty case in the chamber - I had to use an easy-out to remove it.
After both of the kaboom's I ordered a case of brass ammo and haven't had any problems since. I figured that the small added cost of brass was worth it if I don't have to keep buying magazines that are FUBAR from kaboom's. I've checked my FAL's headspace and it's perfect. As a side note, I've shot the exact same steel cased ammo in my PTR91 and have never had an issue, not saying that I never will but just interesting that it runs without issue in that gun. |
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#93 | |
Registered
FALaholic #: 70039 Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: West Harlow, NC
Posts: 437
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Quote:
I'll give you a hint, if you get a case separation, you probably need to stop and do a good assessment of the ammunition you're shooting, brass or steel. |
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#94 |
Registered
FALaholic #: 41232 Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Gainesville, Florida
Posts: 333
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I love my FAL like I love my pets. I would never feed my pets the cheapest food available.....
I love getting a deal on good ammo but I'd rather wait for a deal then go cheap. I also hate WalMart, I can afford to pay a little more just to avoid the place Snob rant over.... ![]() |
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#95 | |
Mighty Fine!
Contributor
FALaholic #: 5391 Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 5,989
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How's your dog, Paden? |
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#96 |
American X Factor
Contributor
FALaholic #: 74860 Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Swamplands of Louisiana, USA
Posts: 235
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This whole thread has me scratching the bald spot on the top of my head.
![]() Why play Russian roulette, pun intended, with your health, life and firearms shooting steel case ammo? Especially, when ZQI/MKE is available at the local, dare I say it, ![]() Being part Scotch Irish and Yiddish, to name but a few heritages in my mix, and a Virgo. That concoction means I will pull the copper off these new fangled copper plated zinc pennies. I've seen ZQI sell for $9.97 a box of twenty, and as low as, IIRC, $7.97. That's brass ammo! Boxer Primed, NON CORROSIVE! I've seen posts here on FF, attesting to its reliability, functioning even with the gas port wide open. Only Hirtenberger comes close in price. But, its Berdan primed, no easy reload. And don't forget the cost of shipping. - -
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#97 | |
Registered
FALaholic #: 68430 Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Peoria, AZ
Posts: 10
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Quote:
There's an old saying in Tennessee I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, fool me once, shame on shame on you. Fool me you can't get fooled again. Yeah, I should have stopped after the first one. ![]() ![]() ![]() |
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#98 | |
Registered
FALaholic #: 62156 Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Chandler Az
Posts: 593
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Quote:
ZQI is discontinued at wally world. Only a few have any left. Been gone around here for over a year. Same with perfecta. |
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#99 |
Registered
FALaholic #: 4936 Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Florida Where it's Hot and Humid
Posts: 6,390
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WALLYWORLD INSIGHT
Wall fart used to sell the shit out of Winchester ammo about 6 years ago.. Every year at the Shot show they would show up an cut deal's with Winchester to the tune of about 10 million dollars, Then about 4 years ago they cut back to about 5.5 million dollars for 1 year, Then nothing from Winchester as they started selling Wolf,Tula and any other crappy ammo they could cut a deal with, Even Privi Partisan was their higher selling ammo leader. People around here starting seeing what Wally Fart started selling and said,HELL NO as allot had started to see what was posted on line about the shit WW was selling and most started ordering their ammo on line.
Wolf and Tula come out of the same arsenal that is an OLD Russian Govt. munitions plant. I had friends that had relatives that worked there say the employees don't get paid for months on end and if they complain, They get fired and get new employees that fast. Their forging plant to make steel cases suffers badly, They use re-Formulated tank and Artillery powder, They buy old Russian T-55 tanks and cut them up and melt the steel down for weapons shells, They say a T-55 can produce 1.1 million rounds in 7.62x39 shells. Wolf/Tula have the same owner and importer called Vector Corp out of Conn. and it's owned by a Russian.
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Live life to the fullest, Because in the end there's only death and taxs. |
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#100 | |
Registered
FALaholic #: 66611 Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Wells, Vermont, USA
Posts: 900
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