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Old March 19, 2017, 05:54   #1
Sagerider
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S&W M&P 10, disappointed :(

So I took the M&P 10 out for a good work out today using three loads one of which was factory Remington all 150 grain FMJ with disappointing results.
I mounted a 4 to 14 power Nikon Buckmaster scope on it, other scope too long of a story and non relevant. Results were 6 inch groups at 130 yards, suckola!
This is the best I could get out of it. Sort of random all over effect.
Frustrated with blowing through ammo giving nothing useful I grabbed one of my Argy FALs and ran it through its paces. Two to three inch groups with typical Argy rear peep sight. The wind was kicking up pretty bad but it was from behind not a cross wind. As it got later it was blowing so bad I could not see the bullet holes on the targets from the spotting scope moving so much so I called it a done day.

What I noticed from my adventure is the Argy was pleasant to shoot, recoil pushing more than slamming like the M&P 10. Yep, the recoil of the M&P 10 was not very smooth or comfortable. Same ammo in both rifles. Other than the factory Remington my hand loads were (24 and 26 incorrect) was actually 44 and 46 grains of Winchester 748 with 150 grain FMJ bullets. Loads worked well in my FALs, my Springfield M1A Loaded model and my Garand. Sad that a rifle with a 14 power scope can be put to shame by an open sight rifle.

I have heard that the S&W likes heavier bullets so I will give that a try in the next couple of days. I have some 168 Sierra Match to run through it to see if there is any improvement. If not the thing has got to move on down the road, sucks but that is the way it goes. I don't need a rifle that requires taylored ammo to function as I expect a $1,400.00 Nikon scoped Timiney triggered rifle should. If I can't get better than 6 inch groups out of it on the market place it will go. Maybe I got a Lemon barrel?
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The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

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Last edited by Sagerider; March 19, 2017 at 21:03.
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Old March 19, 2017, 08:27   #2
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"Other than the factory Remington my hand loads were 24 and 26 grains of Winchester 748 with 150 grain FMJ bullets."

That may be a big part of your accuracy problem, but I assume you may have fumbled your keypad there.

Sorry to hear about your dismal M&P 10 results, got to be something seriously out of kilter with that rifle. Good luck finding it. The wrong bullets for the twist may be a factor, but 150 grainers should definitely do much better than what you've experienced.

A bum barrel may be your problem, I'd try removing any Muzzle device, checking the crown and test fire naked.
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Last edited by MAINER; March 19, 2017 at 09:21.
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Old March 19, 2017, 09:44   #3
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Maybe try another scope and mount along with some different ammo. Honestly while have over $10,000 worth of Nikon camera lenses not counting camera bodies have never been satisfied with their scopes. Bought two when first hit the market and both shook apart within the first 100 rounds on a battle rifle. Waited a couple years and tried again with two more, one on a bolt gun and other on a battle rifle. The bolt gun did o.k. till moved it from a 22 Hornet to see if would hold zero to a 7mm Practical which dislodged the reticle on third round. The one mounted on another battle rifle would wander the more it was shot, all were mounted properly in lapped rings. Was told their current generation seven scopes had improved from generation one and three.

Now have an untested generation 7 going to mount on an 18" 6.8 AR 15 and see if it holds up, it's Nikon last try for me if it fails. Never had a Leupold or Burris fail and the Vortex scopes been buying past 18 months are all holding up. What I like about Vortex is they are only company with lifetime warranty on electronics and why purchased their rangefinder to replace my Leupold as primary device. Every Smith M&P 15 have purchased, even their entry level slick sides have been ace high. Have three in vault right now that use and several still in box have put back to neckbeard someday.
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Old March 19, 2017, 10:45   #4
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Remington ammo is the problem, IMO.
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Old March 19, 2017, 18:04   #5
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The 46 (26 is incorrect) grain load of Win 748 was with 150 grain FMJ and the 44 (24 is incorrect) grain was with 147 grain dud tracers, the reason for 44 grain is to compensate for the longer bearing surface, the bullets are longer. The dud tracers were acquired super cheap when .308 bullets were getting hard to find a few years back. The FALs don't care and shoot them just fine. Both hand loads are with Lake City brass.

The first scope mounted was an ART scope then I changed it to the new never mounted Nikon. I have another mounted on a gopher blaster AR-15 and it is the Kat'z azz. The ART scope was not as clear to my old eyes so I swapped it out. The Nikon has the side mounted parallax adjustment and is clear and sharp.
I realize that 90% of shooting problems is the nut behind the rifle so I am keeping that fact at the front of the line.

I will put some of the Sierra 168 grain together tonight and will see how that goes next week. If anyone has any suggestions I am open. I will take a look at what scopes I have that I can swap. I do have a Leupold 3x9 on the shelf.

Pictures are of the setup for both the Argy and the M&P 10
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File Type: jpg IMG_3636.JPG (151.4 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3635.JPG (140.8 KB, 12 views)
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.

Last edited by Sagerider; March 19, 2017 at 21:07.
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Old March 19, 2017, 20:14   #6
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[QUOTE=Sagerider;4391965]The 26 grain load of Win 748 was with 150 grain FMJ and the 24 grain was with 147 grain dud tracers, the reason for 24 grain is to compensate for the longer bearing surface, the bullets are longer.

I will put some of the Sierra 168 grain together tonight and will see how that goes next week. If anyone has any suggestions I am open. I will take a look at what scopes I have that I can swap. I do have a Leupold 3x9 on the shelf./QUOTE]

Please don't tell me those loads cycle the actions on any of those rifles. If it does, I'm wasting about 20 grains of powder per cartridge as it takes somewhere around 45.0 grains of W 748 to make my FAL do the Happy Dance.

I use 46.2 grains of W 748 with a Sierra 165 gr bullet in Milsurp cases with a CCI primer that crono's 2650fps out of a 22" barrel. Works in a StG, but is a waste of expensive bullets unless I have a scope on so I can see what I'm shooting at.


My 168 gr Sierra MK load is 42.0 gr. of H4895 and 44.5 gr. of Rel. 15 in LC MATCH brass with Fed primers.
Just listing these loads as a guide, YMMV

As usual, should you or any of your rifles be captured or killed, the source will disavow any knowledge of your mission.
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Old March 19, 2017, 20:49   #7
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Like Mainer said, I thought you had mis-typed "2s" when you meant "4s".
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Old March 19, 2017, 21:01   #8
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Yep you are correct, sorry, 44 and 46 grains of Win 748.

I corrected my first and second posts. This is exactly why no one should use data posted on web sites without checking your reloading manuals first.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.

Last edited by Sagerider; March 19, 2017 at 21:09.
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Old March 20, 2017, 10:16   #9
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Would try ammo before changed scopes again. If sure rings are aligned and snug ammo most likely culprit. Would try a couple factory loadings as well. On your handloads consider a couple of three seating depths to see if sensitive to amount of freebore. If have a bullet comperator would measure distance from ogive to lands. Seen barrels with too deep of a throat.
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Old March 20, 2017, 11:24   #10
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The barrels of some MP-10s have stampings that went too deep, affecting accuracy
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Old March 20, 2017, 14:30   #11
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6" is indeed ridiculous. I'd try some FGMM with and without iron sights on the M&P-10.
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Old March 20, 2017, 18:23   #12
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FGMM ? Not ringing a bell.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.
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Old March 20, 2017, 20:14   #13
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I had a 7 mag Savage once upon a time bought really, really cheaply at a pawn shop. Like $220 including the 3X9 Leopold scope that came on it. I tried several different factory loads and could not get it to group to save my life. Finally, I decided to swap it off but took it for one last range trip. Dang thing ate a one raggedy hole group out of the target. Too little, too late as I had already made up my mind so it went away (sans scope).

Scope now happily resides on a tack driving 25-06 Remy that has NEVER had any trouble shooting itty-bitty groups with any ammo fed it. Life is far too short to spend time dealing with troublesome guns, womenfolk, dogs, or trucks. I like a challenge as much as the next guy and hate admitting defeat but dang it, I have other stuff to do.
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Old March 20, 2017, 20:36   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagerider View Post

I have heard that the S&W likes heavier bullets
I've seen it shoot sub MOA groups with 146 grain factory loads and 3-9 x 40 Nikon Monarch.
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Old March 20, 2017, 23:50   #15
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I checked for barrel stamps and the only one on the thinner forward barrel section is pretty shallow. Under the hand guards barrel stamps would have to be pretty heavy to damage the bore as this section is substantial.
I changed out the two piece scope mounts with a single piece type today, just for because.
Prepping brass for further tests. I will pick up some Federal high zoot factory ammo when I go to town later this week.
Weather was crappy today, snowing and blowing all day.

I had a Winchester Feather Weight years ago that I was not thrilled with so it went away. Years later I was looking through my records book and saw it liked 110 varment bullets, 1 inch at 100 yards consistently, should have kept it. It would have been a good coyote rifle.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.
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Old March 23, 2017, 18:31   #16
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FGMM ? Not ringing a bell.
Federal Gold Metal Match, but I think you figured that out!
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Old March 24, 2017, 18:54   #17
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Nope, never would have guessed. Thanks

I stopped by my local sporting goods store and I refuse to pay $1.80 a round to get this rifle to shoot as it should. I picked up some Federal though at $18.00 per 20 instead of $36.00. I think I have some high zoot .308 rounds stashed to test as well.
I have been prepping cases and getting ready to do some loading with a variety of bullets to get more information. When the wind lets up I will do my testing and post up target results.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.
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Old March 25, 2017, 17:24   #18
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Originally Posted by Sagerider View Post
Nope, never would have guessed. Thanks

I stopped by my local sporting goods store and I refuse to pay $1.80 a round to get this rifle to shoot as it should. I picked up some Federal though at $18.00 per 20 instead of $36.00. I think I have some high zoot .308 rounds stashed to test as well.
I have been prepping cases and getting ready to do some loading with a variety of bullets to get more information. When the wind lets up I will do my testing and post up target results.
Yeah, LGSs gotta pay the rent. If I buy any FGMM 175 on sale at $25/box, it's beauty is the QC, consistency and availability. Palmetto is good about running sales on it. These days if I buy for precision it's Custom Reloads of Dallas 185 Juggs or BH 175s. If you want ro try some of those hit me up after the first week in April, I'll send some for free. I'm in the middle of packing for a move right now.
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Old March 25, 2017, 17:41   #19
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If you want a truly accurate .308 AR, get one with known good barrel, and free-float it.
A non-free-floated gun is not likely to ever be consistently accurate.

Don't go cheap on the scope, and ESPECIALLY don't go cheap on the scope mount.

Don't expect best results unless you shoot high quality bullets.
Those FMJ bullets are just as likely to be all over the place, no matter what you shoot them out of.
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Old Yesterday, 06:02   #20
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Squaring the front of receiver is a good habit to get in if use bargain uppers. ARP won't warranty their products if used on a receiver that has not been squared. Can buy 6 different 18" mid weight 1:7 twist barrels. Occasionally get lucky with a Palmetto sale unit but usually a $300 W.O.A., Lothar Walther or other match barrel is worth it's price. Especially when sniping coyote at 400 yards. I got lucky and bought a bunch of W.O.A. AR 10 barrels before they abandoned them totally.
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