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Old August 08, 2018, 20:46   #1
hkshooter
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AR trigger advice and...

PSA factory grunter. Lot's of crunch/slip/stop, big heavy let off. Sucks for just about everything but making noise.
I don't need a light target trigger but I would like a smooth crisp and predictable one. Advice? After market unit? Smith job?


And I need a sling. Nothing bulky, something to carry with that allows me to transition cleanly to a side arm, reholster the side arm, and get back on the rifle again. Rifle wears a CAR type Magpul butt.

Thanks for the advice.
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Old August 08, 2018, 20:48   #2
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Out of all the triggers I've tried, I like the LaRue MBT trigger the best. But everyone is different.
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Old August 08, 2018, 21:15   #3
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Order a JP 3.5 Enhanced Reliability Spring kit, swap out the springs then cycle trigger about 500 to 1,000 times manually while watching television to help the parts mesh together and should drop your trigger pull in half or close for $10. Other option is before take apart to put sing kit in cover all engagement surfaces such a sear to hammer notch and disconnector with old fashioned Crest toothpaste (not too much) and cycle about 50 to 100 times, remove, clean well and install spring kit. Use right lube, I like the stuff that comes from Kidd in a syringe on nice triggers and standard Lucas synthetic gun oil on milspec triggers.
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Old August 08, 2018, 23:06   #4
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I don't have one but people seem to like the QMS trigger, which I think is a standard trigger and hammer which they clean up.

https://algdefense.com/quality-mil-s...igger-qms.html

https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ALG-...-p/alg-qms.htm
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Old August 08, 2018, 23:25   #5
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Absolute best trigger for the $$$. If you shop around, you can find them for around $125. After a.few hundred rounds, the trigger breaks into feeling as nice as Geissele's more expensive offerings (but still a really nice and reliable set out of the package). Excellent customer service.as well.

https://geissele.com/geissele-2-stage-trigger.html
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Old August 09, 2018, 05:23   #6
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Don't know how nice of a trigger or your budget. Midway has there AR Stoner Enhanced trigger on sale for $35 at present, the ALG Defense Quality group for $49, ALG ACT for $69 amd Del-Ton two stage for $99. Then you can blow through $100 right up to $200 and $300 triggers. Quality of upper depends on upper it's going with for me. I don't put $250 triggers in $500 rifles. I pull the milspec, Square and hone all mating surfaces then put a spring kit in along with screw to take the creep out.

It's actually good to have a little travel as if trigger bounces off a stop the instant the sear breaks the momentum of your trigger finger hitting pulling against the stop will pull the shot. I do remove some creep but not all so there is time for the hammer to fall before I hit the trigger stop imparting inertia on the rifle. If you look around you can occasionally find the older Hiperfire 24's and 24e's on sale for under $100. Their new Hipertouch 24's are well over $200 and the old 24 series is about as good and actually better when buying less than half of original retail. They come with a set of hammer springs allowing you to set your pull weight from two to four pounds based on spring selection from the pack and is a very fast resetting single stage.

I like dual stage triggers on target rifles and varmint rifles but fighting and hunting give me a good clean, fast resetting single stage. If look at the USSOCOM Mk 12 Mod 0, Mod 1 and Mod H M4's built to give special ops and SPR/SDM's the ability to engage targets out to 800 meters and still be a dead solid reliable fighting rifle all have a single stage trigger. If can do withough it a week drop your trigger pack in the mail and send it to me. Will put on my Power Custom jig then square and hone all mating surfaces and mail it back. Drop a spring kit of choice in and call it done for ten bucks and a stamp.
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Old August 09, 2018, 05:56   #7
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Quote:
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Out of all the triggers I've tried, I like the LaRue MBT trigger the best. But everyone is different.
On sale till Christmas and a helluva bargain for a helluva trigger!
$87
Also a weekly chance to win a LaRue upper with purchase.
2-stage triggers are my preference, ymmv.

https://www.larue.com/products/larue...bt-2s-trigger/
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Old August 09, 2018, 06:05   #8
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Rock River’s match trigger is real nice. $120. I use the old quick adjust GI slings.
Easy and quick to adjust from carry to prone shooting.
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Old August 09, 2018, 06:16   #9
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There's only one name when it comes to AR fire control groups (FCG) and that's Geissele. The best one for duty, home defense or combat is the Super Semi Automatic, (SSA) It's the semi-auto version of the FCG Bill made for the U.S. Army Special Forces. It's a two stage trigger which gives you a margin of safety when you're in a high adrenaline, high stress situation.

They cost more but are worth every penny.

For a sling check out the Proctor Sling also known as the Way Of The Gun sling.
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Old August 09, 2018, 08:53   #10
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On the cheaper end, the Right to Bear Arms nickel teflon coated triggers are pretty nice.

Get an MBT if you can afford it and want a 2-stage.
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Old August 09, 2018, 09:19   #11
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There's only one name when it comes to AR fire control groups (FCG) and that's Geissele. The best one for duty, home defense or combat is the Super Semi Automatic, (SSA) It's the semi-auto version of the FCG Bill made for the U.S. Army Special Forces. It's a two stage trigger which gives you a margin of safety when you're in a high adrenaline, high stress situation.

They cost more but are worth every penny.

For a sling check out the Proctor Sling also known as the Way Of The Gun sling.

I have the SSA-E and is a very nice trigger also have a couple of Palmetto enhanced triggers with JP springs which is hard to beat when you buy them for $29 on sale and I picked up a Palmetto 2 stage on sale for $99 which isn't to shabby I would like to know who makes it for them

Mark
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Old August 09, 2018, 10:02   #12
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Geissele, Proctor sling and a Vickers combat applications sling. Or you can go the fun ( and expensive) route and buy one of everything and see what you like best.
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Old August 09, 2018, 12:25   #13
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A solid 1,000 pulls will usually smooth out almost any problems.
For precision shooting, I prefer 2 stage triggers, but if you're shooting fast, it doesn't really matter
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Old August 09, 2018, 12:50   #14
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I've been very pleased with the Elfmann trigger in my 6.5 AR.
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Old August 09, 2018, 12:51   #15
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Rock River 2 stage trigger, Standard Vickers sling.

https://www.blueforcegear.com/vickers-sling



$.02



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Old August 09, 2018, 12:58   #16
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Have Timney, LMT, Rock River, Larue, Geissele, Elftmann, CMC, PSA(polished & plated), and heaven knows how many others. They all work pretty darned well. I would buy whichever one of them was the best price when I needed one.

Until the end of the year, the Larue's are going for $87. That is the best deal on any of the name triggers, right now. Don't be in a hurry, though, as Larue has been flooded with orders since announcing the price.

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Old August 09, 2018, 13:47   #17
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Old August 09, 2018, 18:48   #18
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Got a Geissele in my primary AR. It's nice. But if I could do it again I'd get a less expensive trigger and a few #10 cans of Mountain House for the same money.

I have a couple early PSA triggers in other rifles that are actually quite smooth. Then things changed with their triggers.
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Old August 09, 2018, 19:07   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Right Side Up View Post
Out of all the triggers I've tried, I like the LaRue MBT trigger the best. But everyone is different.
I don’t 100% agree but I took your advice. They are very nice for 100 bucks. My only gripe is they are a little wide. But definitely solid for the price.
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Old August 09, 2018, 19:25   #20
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I don’t 100% agree but I took your advice. They are very nice for 100 bucks. My only gripe is they are a little wide. But definitely solid for the price.

I didn't say it was "The Best". I said "I Liked It The Best".
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Old August 09, 2018, 19:37   #21
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Thanks for the input, fellas. Gives me lots to chew on.
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Old August 09, 2018, 20:52   #22
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I have a couple of Velocity Triggers. Comes preset with but, direct drop in, no issues.

https://velocitytriggers.com/product...rigger-curved/
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Old August 10, 2018, 05:49   #23
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I'm pretty happy with Velocity triggers in a couple of ARs. They sell a "steel case ammo" trigger and I have one in a 7.62X39 AR I like a lot. Also have one of their 3.5 lb. triggers in my PSA .308 AR. Geissele in my sho-nuff "presision" AR.
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Old August 10, 2018, 08:50   #24
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My credit card was just charged for the Larue I ordered some 6 weeks ago, so hopefully it's on the way.
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Old August 10, 2018, 11:04   #25
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A solid 1,000 pulls will usually smooth out almost any problems.
For precision shooting, I prefer 2 stage triggers, but if you're shooting fast, it doesn't really matter
What I try to tell most who come in wanting a custom trigger in a $379 AR with polymer lower and many with $449 bottom tier Smiths, Bushy's, DPMS, Del-Ton, etc. Can take one with lower removed and experience of doing it many times tweak trigger spring a bit by bending, put a tad of fine grit lapping compound on mating surfaces, use thumb to keep hammer from hitting front of receiver and cycle it about 100 times. Then clean, luricate and reassemble and they are stunned. Tell them run 500 rounds and it will get better along with muscle memory becoming accustomed to it.

Next is going with a trip across a stoning jig and spring kit. LGS charges $59 for me to do this for their clients and $69 with an adjustment to tune creep. Have built rifles with cheapest FCG could find, install in lower and measure trigger pull after lubricating and cycling a few times then after cycling several hundred times and watched trigger pull gauge slowly drop in measurment. I can accelerate the meshing of parts using some lapping compound from profession grade compounds like Clover and household items like toothpaste.

Was raised up at early age by a group of mentors (game warden & competative Bullseye shooter plus others) that said a gun was not ready for carry/defensive use till owner had minimum of 500 rounds of various ammo through it. First reason is to make sure it's functioning correctly and which ammo it likes. Second is to make sure all parts have been properly broken in and meshed in their interaction with each other. Lastly to give owner muscle memory unconscious ability to operate controls and know what gun feels like instinctively.

Have over two dozen two stage triggers as well as many more single stage and almost a couple dozen binary triggers at this point. Unless a rifle gets a high dollar custom barrel or is specifically built for a specialty combat role I put milspec triggers in most AR's that have been squared, honed and polished with spring kit based on rifles use and a screw for adjusting creep and call it done. With my trigger jig and $10 in springs and $5 in screw plus materials can take almost any crappy milspec trigger to a nice clean 3.75 pound trigger. Have been taking $75 to $99 sale priced two stage triggers and tuning a slick as my Geissel's.

Wait for Midway or someone else to be running a sale on 5.56 ammo. Buy the Wolff trigger improvement spring kit with trigger and disconnector spring for $5.99 and spend the $250 that a two stage trigger costs (if running a milspec rifle). Install the $6 spring kit then shoot the $250 in ammo and will be much better off than a milspec rifle with $250 trigger and not shot much because spent your ammo money on a trigger pack. If you have a $400 barrel, go for the $250 trigger. A good rule is trigger should not cost more than 1/2 the price of barrel it's being used to control. Putting a set of 200 mph rated Pirelli tires on a 1975 Ford F150 won't turn it into a Porsche 911 anymore than a $250 trigger will make a $450 rifle drive tacks.
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Old August 10, 2018, 12:05   #26
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Originally Posted by hkshooter View Post
PSA factory grunter. Lot's of crunch/slip/stop, big heavy let off. Sucks for just about everything but making noise.
I don't need a light target trigger but I would like a smooth crisp and predictable one. Advice? After market unit? Smith job?


And I need a sling. Nothing bulky, something to carry with that allows me to transition cleanly to a side arm, reholster the side arm, and get back on the rifle again. Rifle wears a CAR type Magpul butt.

Thanks for the advice.
Before spending any money on a trigger, take the trigger out of the lower, clean it thoroughly, then lube it with grease. Any clean grease will do, but I've had good results with AeroShell 25 and Geiselle grease.

One way to speed up smoothing out the sears is to push on the back of the hammer with your thumb and dry fire a few times. Take care not to let the hammer fall against the lower and be careful not to push so hard that the sear rounds off or breaks.

I've cleaned up several factory triggers from Colt and PSA this way.
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Old August 10, 2018, 14:32   #27
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The Hiperfire Triggers are pretty good.
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Old August 10, 2018, 16:44   #28
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Any clean grease will do, but I've had good results with AeroShell 25 and Geiselle grease.
Did you mean to say Aeroshell 33?
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Old August 10, 2018, 20:10   #29
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My credit card was just charged for the Larue I ordered some 6 weeks ago, so hopefully it's on the way.
Yeah, I forgot that I ordered mine. Hey but at least all my lowers have decent triggers now.

Shot it last weekend on my A2 upper. Felt nice but as far as accuracy, who knows at 100 yds. I'm getting to the point that irons aren't any fun past 25 yards. I can't see much detail in the target beyond that.
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Old August 11, 2018, 00:01   #30
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Did you mean to say Aeroshell 33?
Or AeroShell 22. Any quality clean grease will do.
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Old August 11, 2018, 00:38   #31
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Before spending any money on a trigger, take the trigger out of the lower, clean it thoroughly, then lube it with grease. Any clean grease will do, but I've had good results with AeroShell 25 and Geiselle grease.

One way to speed up smoothing out the sears is to push on the back of the hammer with your thumb and dry fire a few times. Take care not to let the hammer fall against the lower and be careful not to push so hard that the sear rounds off or breaks.

I've cleaned up several factory triggers from Colt and PSA this way.
I have taken a small 2" polishing wheel mounted in a grinder and mirror polished the important surfaces on a stock trigger and made it ten times smoother.
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Old August 11, 2018, 01:45   #32
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I really like the V-tac sling, either the padded or non-padded work great. I’ve had several others but like the V-tac the best.
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Old August 11, 2018, 08:39   #33
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Rock River 2 stage! You can find them on Gunbroker for $80.
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Old August 11, 2018, 09:40   #34
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I have taken a small 2" polishing wheel mounted in a grinder and mirror polished the important surfaces on a stock trigger and made it ten times smoother.
That will work, but it's too easy to cut through the case hardening and expose the softer material underneath. It's just not worth the risk.
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Old August 11, 2018, 16:52   #35
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That will work, but it's too easy to cut through the case hardening and expose the softer material underneath. It's just not worth the risk.
I would be more worried about rounding off contact edges or taking something out of square not using a proper holding fixture and jig to make sure all parts are square as a large percentage of "milspec" triggers are not 100% squared from factory. Rehardening if had to remove more material than expected is easy enough. If I really have to get on a part hard to get it in spec then I heat till light red, quench in ATF transmission fluid, let cool, put in my heat treating oven at 500° for 30 minutes and let air cool then clean up a bit with some light hand polish.
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Old August 11, 2018, 17:36   #36
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That's all well and good if you've got the equipment & know-how.

I did an AR trigger last night, using the method I described above. It went from crunchy-ticky to pretty smooth in five minutes of easy work.

Guess which method gets my recommendation?
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Old August 11, 2018, 18:44   #37
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Thanks again for the additional advice.

I used to do my own trigger work, mostly 1911 stuff. Tried my hand at an AR once. Quickly learned I didn't know enough about AR triggers to do much to them. I may once again try to simply smooth this one up and leave radical changes to others. Just about anything will be an improvement.
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Old August 11, 2018, 18:49   #38
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That will work, but it's too easy to cut through the case hardening and expose the softer material underneath. It's just not worth the risk.
Not if you're only using rouge.
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Old August 11, 2018, 20:50   #39
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Franklin or Fostech. In that order.
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Old August 12, 2018, 14:43   #40
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Not if you're only using rouge.
Or toothpaste, Clover laping compound, etc. It's when you start applying tools to parts is when you can have trouble. A buffing wheel creates a lot of heat on a small part, especially when concentrated on small area like sear engagement point. I believe if you use a mild compound such as toothpaste or rouge and any number of common household items and actuate trigger a few dozen times then drop the $6 Wolff trigger & disconnector spring kit it when cleaning off your compound then run a couple hundred rounds will be much happier.

If have experience with 1911 triggers your qualified. Setting up a sub four pound 1911 trigger that doesn't follow slide is much harder than helping an AR trigger. I only mentioned restoring the case hardening because so many were flapping about having gone too far in past and cutting through till caused premature erosion of parts. Proper hone does not ruin hardening and I never put a full polish on FCS engagement surfaces. Hone them to 400 grit and let time allow them to mesh with each other. If you want will pull a milspec FCS then square and hone, send it to you in mail, then can install and if don't like mail back. If do like it mail me your OEM parts and I will use to restock my bins.

Off Topic Rambling
A lot of the ruining of hardening is internet lore perpetuated by people that tried to use power tools or files/sandpaper without a trigger jig. Sorry but very few people can properly hone or polish metal surfaces where thousandths of an inch matter "eye-balling" their work by hand. There is a reason every real smith has a hammer and sear jig sitting on or near their bench with proper adapters and jigs for every trigger so when honing and polishing they make them better before violating any hardening.

If want to do real work on triggers for about the cost of an entry level AR build or a couple of nice trigger packs can purchase a Power Custom Hammer & Sear jig with the adapters for three different firearms designs. Precision work is done by craftsmen using precision tools. Why I keep harping on idea of torque wrench, upper squaring lap and decent holding fixture along with good adapters for torque wrench to barrel nut interface are not optional for consistent work.

Look at the line in any auto assembly plant, almost every fastener and part is installed using a tool that only operates in proper torque range for the job it does. Even the guy who has been snugging the bolts on the hood hinges for 20 years is not trusted to do it by "feel". He has a wrench that is set to torque engineers determined for that fastener which is calibrated regularly and replaced when fails calibration. Have been in plants with in house torque testing machines and each torque wrench is checked as often as once a week or even between shifts for ISO or other certification needs.

If Ma Bell catches me installing the bolt that holds wire on a battery without a calibrated torque wrench or testing voltage of each battery before installing, then combined voltage of each string before hooking to buss bar with calibrated meter lose my job with them for life. If battery voltage is just one volt below 12.8 and hook four together when attach to the very expensive power supply it can fry the power supply then smoke a $100,000 cabinet in the process over batteries being one volt under cabinets voltage as it suddenly is shocked by huge string of batteries that wants to pull cabinet below it's set operating voltage. Fixed several cabinets other techs thought could hook an under voltage string of Nicad telecom batteries in without issue.

All my truck service was done by dealership owned by friend who spent his time in service department wrenching and only hired best mechanics. He sold it and retired and new owner replaced all his experienced mechanics with new technicians right out of school to lower salary cost.

Started taking trucks to local shop with top reputation till took a truck in for tires and alignment. Called to say ball joints, tie rod ends and more were worn and had to be replaced and I told them not to and would take elsewhere to be checked. Put wheels back on and would come pay for tires. They said already had front end apart and begun job which was beginning of woes. Called back to tell me needed new spindles due to broken bolts and then new CV joints as discovered were damaged when removed spindles.

Turned out hired a new front end guy and my truck was his first job with the shop. I flew in and got all my original parts, demanded another mechanic on job and watched every move. Took ball joints and tie rod ends to a machine shop and another front end shop which said nothing worn about them except where someone beat on them with big hammer. Same with spindles. $2,000 later in front end work began servicing my trucks myself. Since then have discovered in the two years that reputible garage did my work everything they did has missing bolts, helicoils pulling out when remove bolts that haven't fallen out or were never put back and all sorts of issues.

It has taken me almost a decade to fix the issues they caused. Have replaced dozens of helicoils and repaired many stripped holes using a combination of Time-Serts, Keenserts and other specialty threaded inserts that are as strong as the original hole or stronger rather than a cheap piece of wound wire that were probably Chinese knock offs of real Helicoils which I don't like the originals. Many I wonder how they stripped or broke unless using impact wrench set to tighten when meant to loosen.

Over winter rebuilt rear end of truck they put new ring and pinions sets front & rear to discover shims were not used, didn't bother to replace OEM axle bearings while had axles out and a general mess. Decided to open up front differential and while gears were still good the implimentation sucked so had to order seals, bearings and reassemble it correctly. Luckily my friend that sold his dealership and retired got bored and opened a diesel repair shop and does all work himself so both big trucks go to him and he has corrected multiple technician induced issues on them.

Utube videos can be great or cause many to ruin a lot of parts. Internet instructions can cause many to ruin parts and botch jobs or be a big help. Make sure your getting good information and compare it to a good shop manual whether gun or truck. Have a Chiltons and a Haynes manual for every truck own. Have two separate shop manuals for every motorcycle own. Have two copies of the two best AR shop manuals have read for home library and one of each for my AR building bench so always have references for any job may tackle. Just because someone posts a Utube video doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Because a specification is found in a discussion group doesn't always make it correct. Just because someone screws together an AR in kitchen and it works doesn't mean it's built to its full potential but some can build one on tailgate of truck and be near perfect.

Plenty of good $69 to $99 triggers out there. They can me massaged as well and shoot with triggers twice their cost. Have over three dozen builds in safes not counting give aways. Have parts to build another twelve to eighteen in parts locker. Put a $250 trigger pack in four dozen rifles would be a bet excessive and why have bought proper tools and learned to tweak every style in way that makes it better. Did go big on binaries when I was able to get them for $290 each so have when a build seems to need it.

Come from a school of thought that craftsmen use the best toolls and methods they can learn to do a job and why I get help with my FAL builds. Till have more of the nuances learned by watching and listening to someone with experience I appreciate being the apprentice till ready to branch out. Worked for a friend on weekends and evenings for free for five years before began doing my own wiring. Got a part time job working after hours and weekends as a helper for a local HVAC contractor with stunning reputation till began doing it on my own. Learn what I can from books and then find a mentor.
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Old August 12, 2018, 23:39   #41
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Great. Advice! You are absolutely correct.
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Old August 13, 2018, 14:53   #42
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TTAG Trigger Roundup


What you will find is some of the "only names in AR triggers" might be good, but there's better for less $$$ out there.

Having shared that I've used the Spikes Battle Trigger or ALG in everything at some point. If you aren't familiar both are milspec designs but polished then NiB coated, making for a very smooth version of a milspec. This, in turn, can be improved further with the trigger adjustment screw from JoeBob's. It replaces the pistol grip screw and has a second screw through its center than allows you to remove the takeup on a milspec trigger. It will improve any milspec trigger, but makes these 2 exceptionally nice. I have done this to all of mine. FYI the SBT or ALG both run about $55, the trigger improvement screw another $15. It is absolutely the best combination you'll find at a $70 price point.

SBT


Adjustment Screw


Now for a drop-in unit, after seeing the reviews, I went with the James Madison Tactical Sabre in my precision build. It has a hint of takeup and is a classic glass rod when it single-stage breaks at a bit over 4lbs. Might sound a bit heavy for a "precision" use but I really like it. $99. Look at it's break curve and it can barely be beat at any price point, and certainly not at a c-note.


JMT Review

So while there are lots of opinions I say there's no arguing with the technology that tests the triggers. So you can drop $55 for a significant improvement over milspec, or $300. Ultimately let you wallet and your needs dictate what you choose.
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Old August 13, 2018, 20:21   #43
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What you will find is some of the "only names in AR triggers" might be good, but there's better for less $$$
No you're wrong and so is that article. But hey continue on with your cheapness. Your cheap FCG may work just fine on the range. My SSA is for defending my life. They are combat and duty proven and I've used them since they came out. I bet you're one of those guys that think all AR parts are the same.
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Old August 14, 2018, 07:34   #44
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No you're wrong and so is that article. But hey continue on with your cheapness. Your cheap FCG may work just fine on the range. My SSA is for defending my life. They are combat and duty proven and I've used them since they came out. I bet you're one of those guys that think all AR parts are the same.
The fact that you only read that far, then felt the need to reply, tells me cheap corn whiskey doesn't have many positive effects on synaptic function. I'm also guessing you drive a 1988 Chevy, your TV is a Magnavox, and your phone a Blackberry, because they are "the best" and could never be improved upon at better price points as well.

Competition. It's what's for dinner.
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Old August 14, 2018, 20:37   #45
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Segway but lots of trigger discussion

What the talking heads who are not out in the field getting their @$$ shot at:

Quote:
The Mk12 SPR has seen significant amount of action in the Global War on Terrorism being very popular with the Special Operations operators who use them. They have proven themselves to be a very lethal rifle with the Mk262 Mod 1 ammunition that was designed for it. It is not unusual to get 100% hits at 850 yards on human silhouette target in the hands of a properly trained sharpshooter.
The first Mk 12 rifles were built under SOPMOD for the 5th Special Forces Group. It proved so successful the project was moved from the SOPMOD program to USSOCOM. Accuracy Speaks single stage are whats now used in rifles that Navy Seals, Delta Force, 5th Special Forces, 75th Ranger Battalion along with other troops under USSOCOM command when absolute dependability and accuracy is mandatory to get the mission done. It seems I always here certain names floated around as the cream of the crop but when the best professionals in our elite forces carry an AR 15/M4 the names that float to the top are single stage triggers from Accuracy Speaks (single stage user adjustable from 2.0 to 4.5 pounds), TriggerTech Diamond (single stage adjustable down to 1.0 pounds! Street price will be $299 when released to public), TriggerTech Combat (call it a short action two stage designed to feel like a finely tuned 1911 trigger), the new Hiperfire Hipertouch and Geisselle Single Stage Precision trigger.

Geisselle does have the Super Select Fire SOPMOD trigger they are trying to push but it's a $400 trigger pack. The X-Treme Shooting Service Rifle trigger has tested well and is $150 per unit cheaper than the Geisselle. When it comes to SOPMOD and USSOCOM two stage triggers the X-Treme Shooting Products Model 22 Military trigger was the winner of the USSOCOM PSR procurement contract held at NSW Crane. The X-Treme M 22 Military was tested for 100,000 cycles and never showed more than a 1/4 pound variation in pull at any time from beginning to end. It was one of the few two stage triggers that met the requirement of a built in redundant safety and met all drop test requirements without fail even when adjusted to its lowest setting of 2.0 pound total pull.

Initially the Knights Armament two stage trigger was tried in the Mod 0's but the Mod 1 and Mod H subsequent variations settled in with the Accuracy Speaks single stage triggers. Have spent a lot of time reading about Mk 12's and it's stunning differences read on discussion boards that perpetuate the same information passed from board to board as people cut then paste and what read in the military journals published primarily for our fine soldiers using these systems, the actual SOPMOD and USSOCOM procurement and armorers records. Also reading books from authors like Patrick Sweeny, Joe Poyer and others more recommend a good single stage trigger for defensive/fighting work than a two stage. Personally I can make fast transitions under stress engaging targets at random distances while standing, kneeling, laying in the dirt to moving from different structures of cover to the next much more precisely with a clean crisp single stage trigger.

When sitting at the bench punching paper or shooting varmints I prefer a nice two stage trigger. Can take up the first stage once am on target then as feel the shot is perfect let the final stage fall over and watch my shot nestle right in the same hole as previous shots if punching paper or another vermin bust open and spew blood if hunting varmints. Especially for fast moving CQB situations where have to work shots extemely fast a two stage trigger feels like a creepy squishy milspec with too light of a spring set installed. Have at least a half dozen Geissel's and even more Rock River National Match two stage triggers and have played with spring combinations, different angles on mating surfaces and in the end they all migrate to my target and varmint rifles.

From a rest with no distractions can take up the first stage and sit on the edge of the second till eye, mind and heart tells me to let the hammer fall. A nice two stage is pure poetry for precision shooting when not under the stress of having to move fast or make an almost instantaneous follow up shot, double tap, etc. Once a rifle is defined as a fighting tool it gets a nice single stage trigger of a quality that compliments the barrel and other parts used in the build. A White Oak Armament profiled Kreiger or Shilen SPR/SDM will get the nicest single stage or well set up binary that has no little creep, clean and consistent break and just a fuzz of built in travel so that it's not bumping against a trigger stop before lock time and barrel dwell time of projectile have passed. It will have a very short and fast reset allowing follow up shots as quickly as operator is capable.

As an aside and even though it's a turn bolt can't wait to put my hands on a Mk 13 Mod 7. We can debate the semantics of what trigger is best but at the end of the day it's a very personal decision that each person should make based on ACTUALLY SHOOTING A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT SINGLE STAGE & TWO STAGE TRIGGERS on a three gun or NRA Cross Course type setting that best simulates a fight us civilians can easily access and see what works for you when zombies are trying to kill you. Have discussed a lot of FCS types for the M4/AR 15 but what our fighting troops need is a new rifle instead of a cobbled together patch job on a 60 year old chassis. May as well give them Willis Jeeps rather than Humvees. [/B]Read below quoted text and especially the last of it if skip all my blabbering.[/B]

Quote:
July 31/18: SOCOM SURG*The US Special Operations Command is procuring upgrades for its M4A1 rifles. Sig Sauer is set to supply SOCOM with the Suppressed Upper Receiver Group (SURG). The five-year firm-fixed-price*contract**has a value of $48 million. The M4 Carbine is the latest member of the*M16*family, offering a shorter weapon more suited to close-quarters battle, or to units who would find a full-length rifle too bulky.*SURG**is a 5.56mm, integrally suppressed upper receiver. This short stroke gas piston upper features a 6.75? barrel with a permanently attached 19 baffle, Titanium suppressor. It has two gas settings for use with sub and supersonic ammunition. Short stroke gas pistons eliminate carbon blow-back into the rifles chamber, and also reduce the heat problem created by the super-hot gases used to cycle the M4. The majority of work will be performed at the company’s location in Newington, New Hampshire and is expected to be completed by July 2023.

FY 2012 – 2016

January 13/16:*Remington has*completed**its $40.1 million delivery of M4 carbine rifles to the Philippine Army ahead of schedule. Over 56,000 of the rifles have been delivered in total, and will replace the antiquated 1960s era variant of the M-16 currently in use by the PA. Prior to distribution, a third of the new arms will undergo mandatory ballistic testing while the M-16s will be distributed to reservists.

March 16/15:*The Army released a Sources Sought notice (W15QKN-15-X-7820*), looking for one vendor that can bundle together a series of aftermarket improvements to the M4A1 carbine. The package, to be called the M4A1+, includes increased accuracy, rails, mounting surfaces, neutral, non-black, color, coatings, backup sites and a kitchen sink full of other, smaller improvements.

Feb 18/15:*The Marines are considering adding
various after-market upgrades**to the platform in order to increase accuracy, learning from the private sector and competitive shooting circuit what appears to be providing the best bang.

June 14/13:*The Army excuses their decision to cancel the Individual Carbie competition by saying that none of the candidates met their criteria of 3,592 mean rounds between stoppages, using the new M855A1 Enhanced Performance Round. As a point of comparison, the original requirement for the M4 was 600.

The Army’s PEO Soldier says that SOCOM’s M4A1 achieved 1,691 MRBS, but refuses to release the results of the trials and provide a basis for relative comparison.*Military.com*.

May 2/13:*Military.com reports**that the Individual Carbine’s Phase II firing tests are done, but the US Army is about to cancel the Individual Carbine competition, and direct its tiny $49.6 million in FY 2014 to other things. The original plan involved 3 Phase III contracts, and soldier user tests that would include a total of 800,000 rounds fired.

Overall, the budget for new carbines is $300 million through 2018, and the decision on how to proceed reportedly rests with Secretary of the Army John McHugh. This paragraph sums it up best:

“Gun makers involved in the competition said they have heard nothing from the Army about Phase III of the competition. Competitors didn’t want to be named in this story but said they would not be surprised if the effort was canceled because they never believed the Army was serious about replacing the M4 family.”


March 19/13: Inspector General.*In testimony before the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, the Pentagon’s Inspector General says they’ll audit the Individual Carbine program, as “DoD may not have an established need for this weapon nor developed performance requirements… such as accuracy, reliability, and lethality”.

Aside from the presumptuousness in the wake of incidents like Wanat, they’re also absolutely wrong on a factual level – the IC competition has had those standards for 3 years now.*Source*.

Aug 1/12: Political.*Sen. Tom Coburn [R-OK]*delivers a floor speech**about the M4 and the Army’s failure to replace it. He reminds the Senate about the dust testing in which the M4 came in last, and points out that the average rifle age is 26 years, compared to 12 years in Germany, or 8 years for US Special Forces. The Army has been able to rush MRAP competitions for much more expensive equipment, but:

…secretary of Army Guerin… assured me that we would have a new competition for a new rifle for our troops. That was 2007. Here we are, six years later, and the army is now telling us we’re going to have a new competition in 2014… Because the guys that are responsible for making the decision on purchasing the rifles are not the guys that are out there on the line. Because if they were, we would have already had this competition…

On July 13, 2008, in the battle of Winot [sic] in Afghanistan, 200 Taliban troops attacked the U.S. troops at a remote outpost in Eastern Afghanistan. The Taliban were able to break through our lines… Believe it or not, do you know what killed most of us? Our own rifles. Practically every one of our dead was found with his m-16 torn down next to him where he had been trying to fix it. That’s occurring now. Except it’s not getting any press.

…You know, a lot of people do a lot of things for our country, but nobody does for our country what the soldier on the frontline does – nobody. Mr. secretary of the Army. This is a moral question. Get the rifle competition going. Members of congress, members of the senate who are on the armed services committee don’t allow this to continue to happen.
So while the AR 15 aka "poodle shooter" is a great rifle for us civilians to play Legos with and can build fairly acceptable target, varmint, light/medium hunting, action sports and personal defense rifles the M4 is just has a huge band-aided system for combat troops that needs to be replaced IMHO as have operated better rifles for a fighting mission myself.

Luckily I have the choice of selecting anything from a basic 5.56, premium Wylde chambered 5.56, precision long range 22 Nosler, various purpose built 6.8 spc II's or 458 SOCOM with subsonic ammo and big suppressors and even two or three just so have best one in the truck for situation of the moment and can maintain, rebuild and upgrade my AR 15's at will or choose from various AR 10's, M1a's, FAL's, L1a1's, combat shotguns, H&K G3's or turn bolts with solid 1,500 yard performance and longer. Our fighting men except a select few units don't have the options a hillbilly like me does.
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Old August 18, 2018, 21:25   #46
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Geissele 2 stage .. all I'll ever need .. sweet triggers !
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Old September 14, 2018, 12:59   #47
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I had to use anti walk pins on 2 LaRue's; Geisele's not so.

The diameter of the hammer spring wire on LaRue's, appears to be bigger than the pin's slot, and the pins are not well retained; hammer j spring same deal. Two anti walk pins required for that trigger.

New receiver too, no big or wallowed holes.
$10 pin kit solves problem.

Anyone else?
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