rpk74dr

[bar2260]

I PMed Mike about buying a complete Imbel para lower after I noted he picked up the better part of a complete set from gunsap. We pmed back and forth, I was looking to refit a SAR48 para back to original parts. The final offer 750 for a complete Imbel para lower and stock. Mike has a great history of sales. Offer accepted. No problem.
About three weeks later I recieve the lower. Suprise, the Imbel stock on the lower in gunsaps' add changed to a SA, the hammer is marked FAUSA, selector is uchanged as in pervious gunsap add, pistol grip unchanged. The rear of the dust cover has no knob, the bolt is stenciled RA7632 on the underside and serialed on top, and the carrier has an obvious nick inside as if bolt hit it when forcefully dislodged. I didn't inspect further (digusted). It sits in the box sent in. I contacted Mike

Originally Posted by bar2260
Mike
Everything came in today.The lower is f/s marked but, other parts are obviously not imbel, this is an imbel lower reciever with a mish mash of other parts.
If you scroll lower on this PM I was willing to pay the premium for an Imbel para lower. The selector is inch, bolt is marked ra7632 stencil on the underside and serial stamped on the upper, and hammer marked fausa. The nosed cover also apears to be falcon. For 750 I could have expected you to at least ensure all parts were Imbel. This is not what I would expect for the kind of money I paid. I think I need to send this back for a refund, what do you think.

Bob
Re: Parts

I'm pretty sure I sent you all of the parts requested for the kit.The selector markings were the only markings I seen on the lower nothing else.I don't recall if there are any on the bolt carrier.The receiver is marked Imbel with the logo

Mike

This has been the extent of his reply. So I take the hit. With his rating, never expected this. Would have posted sooner but tried to contact gunsap as to stock ( no reply as of yet) and attempting to let Mike make good.

[nwobhm]

Pictures?

[Holdn4aces]

http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=331865

I'm confused. Are you saying that what you got is different than in the pictures? Or the pics are not what was originally posted.

[NHBandit]

bar2260 I have no dog in this fight however you asked "do I take the hit" so I'm going to assume you're asking the membership here for opinions. Looking at the pics on the original ad I can clearly see an inch style selector although it appears to be aftermarket (DSA maybe ?) The ad also says Falcon trigger group so the hammer markings are as they should be. If the HTS is a deal breaker I'm betting you could find a couple hundred guys here willing to trade you Imbel parts for your US made Falcon parts.. Same with the selector. LOTS of guys would swap you an Imbel selector for a semi only inch style. The point is the pics and the description appear to match what you say you recieved unless you have pics you can post showing us otherwise. You're saying the folder assembly is South African ? What makes you think so ? Every Rhodie para folder I have seen was missing the rear swivel, in fact there was no hole to install one and the ones I've had all had hard rubber butts. HootG could tell us if SA ever made any folders with Aluminum butts. The one in the pic appears to be Aluminum which an Imbel would be ? You're accusing him of swapping the folder assembly. Please show pics of the one you recieved and describe what's different. Does it have a rubber butt ? I see nowhere in the ad where it says ALL the parts are Imbel. What I think is going on here is that there is a seller AND a buyer who are not completely familiar with just exactly what they are looking at and if so I'm not really sure who is at fault.

[bar2260]

The pictures on gunsaps' add show the lower I suspect I was sent. The
stock although hard to tell looks to have a solid butt and a (b) mark at the
hinge.

The stock I recieved has a hollow butt and no (b) at the hinge.

The pistol grip is the same as in the add and the selector is the same one
pictured. Non Imbel.
gunsap is in no way connected to this, his pictures just show the parts
involved
I'll try and get pictures up this evening.

[bar2260]

Re: Parts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mike
I.m looking for a complete imbel para parts kit minus the front end. To be specific
Complete S F marked ( not S A R marked) lower with folding stock
Imbel nosed para dust cover with spring
Imbel unmarked para bolt and carrier
Best I can offer is 600 plus shipping
Bob
Are you looking for any parts?

I kept trying to verify all parts Imbel
I bumped the offer later

[bar2260]

NHBandit

No Sir, I said '' I take the hit"" not looking for opinions. My part in this I accept. I expect any Man to do the same.

[NHBandit]

My mistake. Unfortunately when you air your laundry on a public forum you have to accept that people might offer an opinion. Some of your concerns might be valid. Time will tell. At the very least the ones about the selector & the Falcon HTS appear to be exactly what was described. We are a tight bunch and tend to look after our own. If it appears you got hosed we will back you all the way. If it appears you are wrongfully accusing someone of wrongdoing we will also let you know you're out of line. If this is unacceptable don't make it public. Waiting to see the new pics and possibly comments from the seller before posting anything further. Have a great day.

[bar2260]

Images uploaded
http://profile.imageshack.us/user/cars23/

I did not request to buy the Non-Imbel parts, at various times throughout contact I made clear what I was attempting to buy Imbel only parts. This was to restore a SAR48 para.

[bar2260]

I may have come across wrong, not looking for opinions in the sense that I take responsibility for my part of a deal. Please feel free to say what you want to say.

The part some may not fully understand is this was suppose to be an Imbel para lower. If I had stated FN para lower and you look at what was sent, or Argye para lower. The para lower was suppose to be Imbel.

I expected quality and seller integrity.
... I didn't say hey.. that lower you bought with all the parts on it, I'll take it for 750.

[gunplumber]

FWIW, Brazil did not always make their own parts. Many "IMBEL" rifles, particularly "older" ones, are actually FN, sold to Brazil.

I've had literally hundreds of FN marked parts in Brazilian kits. Even FN barrels.

Any time a country went to manufacturing their own, it started with buying the rifles, then making spare parts, then making complete rifles under license.

Point is, you may be expecting a higher degree of sophistication on the part of the seller than can reasonably be expected. Not everyone can differentiate an FN made part from an IMBEL made part, particularly on a rifle that is otherwise IMBEL, but may have then gone to Rhodesia through South Africa from Chile (rem,ember the Arms Embargo).

[bar2260]

I do respect those facts and your opinion. now please cover the pistol grip, hammer, selector, the fact that the folding stock was substituted for a known Imbel,the rather large nick (picture may not show well) in carrier, specific in asking for unmarked Imbel bolt ( marked RAas above) and numbered on top. gp, most are not Imbel, not even close. By the way, the SAR48 selector you sold me was for this project (thank you)

[2barearms]

I'm just curious, you contacted this member after HE bought this set of
parts from another member?

You then offer to buy something from him that's not in then original sale
ad?

You got what's in the pics. The Bolt does appear to be IMBEL via Rodesia
and the Buttstock sling swivel escaped being neutered somehow which is
rare. What was in the the original sale ad certainly wasn't a complete
unadulturated Imbel Para Parts set. Asking for it to be different won't
make it different.

So, unless he agrees with you that he somehow he misrepresented what
he sold you it's yours. It appears neither of you 2 know the parts involved.
Your pics don't show the same angles that were in the ad. Does the Bolt
Carrier have any numbers on it? SA Para carriers aren't numbered and
like GP stated this set was probably in SA last. So this does not appear
to be a Commercial IMBEL Para but a military set of parts to some degree.

[Abominog]

I am so confused. I think the buyer is too.

[gunplumber]

I was commenting just in generalities.

After reading your post several times, and looking at some really poor quality pictures, I don't see what your complaint is.


I understand you wanted an "IMBEL" para conversion set (stock, carrier, etc)

And what you got may have some FN parts in it, or be IMBEL parts that made their way to South Africa or Rhodesia and bear multiple markings. And US Parts that were advertised as such in the original ad.

But the issue isn't really whether you got what you wanted, but whether the seller misrepresented what he was selling.

You approached him to buy something sight unseen, that he had only just acquired and may or may not be the same as the pictures you both saw. The pictures you showed were of a "parts gun."

I see no evidence at this time that he misrepresented anything - do you have any?

As someone else mentioned above, I'll gladly trade you an IMBEL FCG and selector for those US made ones. I don't have much in the way of para parts but I do have a NOS stripped IMBEL para lower with stock bolt for $150.

[bar2260]

I PMed because I noted in an add the he bought a piece that had parts I wanted. Specified what I was looking for and offered a premium, his acceptance of the deal to me implied he had the totality of parts. Then he sends me this mixed bag of parts, (some) of which I was looking for.

Gunsaps add was merely a starting point, giving reference to the fact, this is how I came to the conclusion this person may, be in posession of the complete package of parts I was looking for. If he didn't have it, or any part of it, in a normal transaction that point is brought up, and then negotiations continue or cease.

He accepted funds, then sent some of what we agreed to along with what I consider substitute parts, that happen to be what he originally bought as a package deal. (Sorry the pictures are not better quality)

[gunplumber]

I still have no idea what he advertised to you that differs from what you received.

It appears you simply said "I'll give you x amount more for what you just bought" and he said "ok, it's yours". Then you discover it isn't what you wanted - but I see no fault to him.

[bar2260]

gunplumber;

Mike
I.m looking for a complete imbel para parts kit minus the front end. To be specific
Complete S F marked ( not S A R marked) lower with folding stock
Imbel nosed para dust cover with spring
Imbel unmarked para bolt and carrier
Best I can offer is 600 plus shipping
Bob
Are you looking for any parts?

If I sent this along with other posts gp and referenced that you just bought a lower kit that had some of those parts already. Say you agreed, I would think you looked through it to make sure it had the parts asked for. If not you would substitute those parts from some you knew you had or could get.

Otherwise you would stipulate that you did not have the said parts and we would work from there.

You would not send Non-Imbel parts, when what was stipulated was a complete Imbel lower, further you would look at the condition of said parts to be as requested or inquire of buyer whether another condition was acceptable. When he accepted funds, he agreed to what I asked for, I did not feel the need to say to him, are you taking off the pistol grip, and substituting the Imbel you have, are you taking off the take down lever and substituting an Imbel you have, do you see any marks on the bolt ( as I already addressed that in the initial contact) etc...

[NHBandit]

Just my observations from this latest info. I agree with gunplumber. You knew about the original ad posted by gunsap if I'm reading this correctly and that's how you found out about these part in the first place ? That tells me you read the original description and looked at the pics. It clearly shows an inch style selector and the written description clearly says it has Falcon fire control parts. It shows a F S marked Imbel commercial type lower such as would be correct for your SAR 48. Do you think most of us have huge piles of spare parts we can pick and choose from to custom tailor a package to suit your needs ? You seem to be upset because you "wished" the parts were something other than what the description & the pictures indicated. You "assume" rpk74dr is an expert at knowing all the little telltale variations that differ from commercial Imbel to military issue Imbel, Belgian, etc. and your upset that he's not. If you had simply done a quick search of his old posts like I just did you would have found one where he shows a para top cover he just aquired and is asking "who made this"? The general opinion from those who responded was that it was Imbel. Whether it is or not is not the issue. It shows that he is not an expert. As I posted earlier the HTS & the selector is a non issue. You can swap them with any number of people here for the Imbel parts you want. I do understand that you asked specific questions of rpk74dr but that dosn't mean he intentionally misled you, just that he didn't know. I would like to hear his response to all of this. I apologise in advance for the lack of proper paragraphs. I have been informed on another thread that it is annoying to some folks.. Added: I am still waiting for your reason for assuming the folder assembly is South African. As I said earlier all of those I have seen had no hole for a rear swivel (it's not just that the swivels were removed, the hole was never drilled) and had a rubber butt. Sorry but your pictures suck.. Tell ya what, teach me how to make paragraphs & I'll teach you how to take pictures.

[gunplumber]

Complete S F marked ( not S A R marked) lower with folding stock
Imbel nosed para dust cover with spring
Imbel unmarked para bolt and carrier


So it appears to me your only legitimate complaint is that there is a serial number on your bolt carrier, as the other items meet what you asked for. The seller made no assertions as to condition. (There is no such thing as a para bolt).


Here's a tip. When placing orders or when making reports, include no extra anything. Just the necessary. And make those in bullet points. There is something about your writing that is damn confusing - as it's taken multiple posts to distill out your claim and I'm usually a pretty sharp guy.

[bar2260]

Why, if the seller did not understand that I was asking for specific parts did he change the stock?

Any acknowledgement to that, makes it understood there were parts that might require changing, and the sellers willingness and, possible ability to comply.

If small components were unavailable to be changed out, why not tell me before accepting my cash.

If the stock had not been changed out, And I contacted the original seller to be sure, how did he understand what I was looking for, for such a major component, and misunderstand the minor ones.

[gunplumber]

After a half dozen posts, I (and I suspect others) still don't know what you're complaining about. The best I can come up with is you wanted an unnumbered bolt carrier and got one that was numbered. Yet you solicited the purchase, he did not advertise it - so it is hard to claim he advertised falsely

While I understand you are unhappy with what you got, it is not clear that the seller deceived you. That was the point of my inquiry: is rpk74doctor a dishonest seller? I do not think that can be reasonably concluded from your report.

I have no power to resolve the situation for you - and you seem uninterested in exchanging some of your non-IMBEL parts for IMBEL parts as I offered earlier.

[bar2260]

He didn't advertise, I went to him with a request

[NHBandit]

OK since I'm bored and wanting to give you the benefit of the doubt I looked at both sets of pics. I have to say it does look like the folder assembly has been swapped although I'm still not convinced you recieved a South African folder. Here are the 2 pics showing the different knuckles rotated & cropped so they are easier to compare. The left pic is from the original ad, the right pic is what you recieved.

[bar2260]

You are forensic.

[nwobhm]

They look different IMHO.

[gunplumber]

The knuckle in your picture is different than the knuckle in the third-party's picture.

But since rpk74doctor didn't send you any pictures of what you wanted to buy, we cannot take your assumptions to be indicative of any wrong-doing on his part.

I understand he sent you an S-F marked Brazilian lower and stock, which I understand is what you asked for.

[G3isMe]

It seems that rpk74dr may have swapped the stock from the one he bought with a different one. So what if he did, I see no problem with that, even if that is what he did, as he bought it. If you had wanted the parts sold by gunsaps, you should have bought them. Good grief I don't have clue why you felt the need to post this in public. You asked to buy something sight unseen and he sold you just what you asked for. There was no contract that he sell you the parts that he bought from gunsaps, which for the most part it appears he did. Next time go to a gunstore.....sheeeez...
.
.

[bar2260]

You all have been kind to enlighten me.

Could you in a short factual (as best you know) finish my education, and tell me, what my expectations of recieving should have been?

[IRONWORKER]

bar2260 if your not going to use that stock & want to recover some of your $$$ please let me know, I'll be more than glad to buy it

[gunplumber]

1. determine what is for sale (pictures, detailed description)
2. determine if item matches your desire
3. pay for item
4. receive item
5. compare item received with that for which you contracted

It seems you were so eager to get something, that you skipped the first 2 steps. Happens to all of us at one time or another, particularly when we perceive a time limit on the decision.

It might seem tedious, and we sometimes lose out on something to one less particular, but a careful itemization of what you are contracting for, saves disappointment later. Particularly when small details (such as a number stamped on the bolt carrier) are of such importance to you that they will make or break the deal.