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Old June 10, 2019, 14:49   #1
Thorack
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Has the C1A1 seen combat?

Well,

I'm curious, seen and heard several heroic stories about soldiers with Brit L1A1's and Aussies with SLR, but have the Canadians ever used the C1A1 in combat or is it like the StG-58, a combat virgin that's never been tested?

Anyone know?

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Old June 10, 2019, 18:43   #2
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Yes, The C1 has seen UN and other duty around the globe. I know I carried it on at least one deployment. While peace keeping is not war, there have been skirmishes.
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Old June 11, 2019, 05:21   #3
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Unless verified by photos....no.
I have researched many photos of Canadian "Peacekeepers" in the Balkans early 1990 and the vast majority were armed with the C7's both standard and carbine rifles and none with the C1A1.

During the cold war the Canadian Government retained their relationship with communist countries like China and Cuba and if they participated in any peacekeeping prior to 1990 I would like to know where they employed the C1A1 in order to research their AO.
I don't see photo's the Canadian's with weapons in Namibia 1989-90 and Egypt 1981 or Lebanon in 1978
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Old June 11, 2019, 06:47   #4
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Canadians have served around the world with the C1 through the mid 1980s. Peacekeeping missions and NATO exercises. 28 killed in cypress, 130 total killed in UN missions. Not really a war to test the rifle -ok.

Cypress / Snowgoose
https://i.cbc.ca/1.4682971.152762520...-in-cyprus.jpg

http://static1.squarespace.com/stati.../?format=1500w

but this is also cyprus. https://tce-live2.s3.amazonaws.com/m...efdf019757.jpg

Egypt, 22 dead.

Cold War Germany '64
http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/s...o--4235750.jpg

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/s...o--4235759.jpg

Reforger '74

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/s...o--4816297.jpg

Germany '75

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/s...o--4221654.jpg

Germany '84

http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/s...o--4868488.jpg



http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/s...o--4814247.jpg

Germany 86 (interestingly, earlier middle eastern peacekeeping deployments had the C7 - Calamut)
http://silverhawkauthor.com/images/s...70612480_n.jpg
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Old June 11, 2019, 19:44   #5
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In 1974 in Cyprus, the Canadian Airborne Regiment (CAR) was deployed to Cyprus for its first peacekeeping mission. Three months later it was to stand in the centre of an all-out war when Turkey, a NATO ally, invaded the island. They were equipped with FN C1A1 and FN C2A1.

http://espritdecorps.ca/1974-lest-we-forget
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Old June 12, 2019, 10:02   #6
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Mark, some amazing photos.
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Old June 12, 2019, 11:33   #7
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I believe it is fair to say the Canadian C1A1 was not battle tested however it certainly was battle ready for many years until the combat conditions changed to weapons requiring full auto firing.
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Old June 15, 2019, 20:12   #8
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Originally Posted by DakTo View Post
I believe it is fair to say the Canadian C1A1 was not battle tested ...

I believe that Pte. Joseph L. G. Perron would disagree.

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Old June 16, 2019, 01:02   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
I believe that Pte. Joseph L. G. Perron would disagree.
He was killed in a UN Peace-keeping mission on cypress in '74. Still dead, and deserving of honor for dying in the line of duty - but not exactly a "war". They were in the middle of two warring factions. Doesn't really say much on the topic of the C1 in combat.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...cekeepers.html
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Old June 16, 2019, 06:56   #10
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lysanderxiii: Thank you for the respectful photo of a fallen Canadian soldier. Please explain how this demonstrates the testing and effectiveness on the battlefield of a C1A1 rifle?
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Old June 16, 2019, 17:59   #11
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lysanderxiii: Thank you for the respectful photo of a fallen Canadian soldier. Please explain how this demonstrates the testing and effectiveness on the battlefield of a C1A1 rifle?
There were numerous fire fights between the Canadians and both the Greeks and Turks in Cyprus mostly from 14 to 17 August 1974. The Canadian paratroopers acquitted themselves well, in spite of the restrictions of being "a peacekeeping force", and had no reported complaints about their equipment. For the average trooper in an isolated observation post, does it matter if the action is a "peacekeeping mission" or a "battle"?
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Old June 16, 2019, 19:03   #12
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Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
He was killed in a UN Peace-keeping mission on cypress in '74. Still dead, and deserving of honor for dying in the line of duty - but not exactly a "war". They were in the middle of two warring factions. Doesn't really say much on the topic of the C1 in combat.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...cekeepers.html
Question was whether or not the rifle was combat tested, not whether it was in a "war." Any of those Canadian soldiers who got caught up in those "skirmishes" exchanged more gunfire with enemy combatants than you even did (sorry, playing OPFOR doesn't count).
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Old June 16, 2019, 20:06   #13
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sheesh...

Are you guys for real ?

The Canuck guns were among the most refined of FALs PERIOD

built as well or better than Belgian guns, far better sighting
and dummies debate over their combat utility ?

it's a damn' FAL and one of superior buildmanship.

it's not some nasty RFI product people.
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Old June 16, 2019, 21:01   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lysanderxiii View Post
There were numerous fire fights between the Canadians and both the Greeks and Turks in Cyprus mostly from 14 to 17 August 1974. The Canadian paratroopers acquitted themselves well, in spite of the restrictions of being "a peacekeeping force", and had no reported complaints about their equipment. For the average trooper in an isolated observation post, does it matter if the action is a "peacekeeping mission" or a "battle"?
I believe there is a big difference between a manning static position where you man you position on a schedule, eat hot chow, have your laundry done and have lots of down time to clean & maintain your personal weapon.
In a battle war your living conditions are less desirable on a personal basis and your weapon can receive every degree of abuse they warn you about in basic training.
Field testing a weapon and utilizing a weapon in a peacekeeping force are apple and oranges.

Has anyone here has the experience of employing an M14 in Vietnam?
Why was it pulled from the AO within a year? There is not too much public information on its rapid exit from the Nam other than being replace by a lighter M16 and the weight, lenght, heavie ammo weight loads, lack of controllable automatic firing, frequent breakage on wood and upper plastic handguards and the catching of vines and bush on the flash hider and bayonet lug proved it was not suitable for missions in the topography of the Nam. That is why trials & field testing are most important.
Ask yourself why a good majarity of ANZUS forces in Vietnam retired their inch SLR's for M16's and M60's? Most likely durability and firepower of the US weapons. .
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Old June 16, 2019, 21:16   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riversidesports View Post
sheesh...

Are you guys for real ?

The Canuck guns were among the most refined of FALs PERIOD

built as well or better than Belgian guns, far better sighting
and dummies debate over their combat utility ?

it's a damn' FAL and one of superior buildmanship.

it's not some nasty RFI product people.
Two points: The C1 development had no competition and the Canadian policy post WWII was for Canada to defend itself & North America in co-operation with US forces and contribute to broader international security.
They did serve in Europe as part of NATO during the cold war.
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Old June 16, 2019, 21:39   #16
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sheesh...

Are you guys for real ?

The Canuck guns were among the most refined of FALs PERIOD

built as well or better than Belgian guns, far better sighting
and dummies debate over their combat utility ?

it's a damn' FAL and one of superior buildmanship.
Pretty much.
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Old June 16, 2019, 23:28   #17
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Question was whether or not the rifle was combat tested, not whether it was in a "war." Any of those Canadian soldiers who got caught up in those "skirmishes" exchanged more gunfire with enemy combatants than you even did (sorry, playing OPFOR doesn't count).
Hey, stupidfucker. Embarrassed at the bitch-slapping I gave you in the other thread? You only make yourself look even dumber. Geez, what a fcuktard! Give it up already, bitch - I've fcuking owned you since you first crawled out of your hole.

Canada participating in peace-keeping operations where the majority of casualties were from a plane being shot down, is not an evaluation of the C1 under extended combat operations.

Personally, I think the point is moot, as the FAL has an adequate record, as does the L1A1 - and the C1 isn't significantly different. Dak To's question is rather silly. As is most of his screed. But the reality remains, the C1 variation has not seen any extended real combat. A week 45 years ago isn't really enough to evaluate weaknesses in the system.

On the other hand, the M14 was only general issue for 7 years and never adopted by any other country in the world - who didn't get it for free. So really what we can derive from any serious study of the C1, is that it is inferior in most regards to the m16A1 (with proper ammo). But we already knew that or it wouldn't have been replaced by the M16.

Cold warriors - we were there and nothing happened. Did nothing happen because we were there? Or did nothing happen because nothing was going to happen anyway? I dunno and I doubt anyone could be certain. But NATO was ready for WWIII. The Canadians did their part, as did the USA, and I did my part as an Airborne Ranger - training daily for missions that never happened. Last I checked, the Fulda-Lücke was still in German hands. You're welcome. When and where did you serve?
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Old June 16, 2019, 23:34   #18
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Ask yourself why a good majarity of ANZUS forces in Vietnam retired their inch SLR's for M16's and M60's? Most likely durability and firepower of the US weapons. .
.....majority ? Dak that is simply not true. The SLR was AND REMAINED the standard service rifle and was issued FAR FAR more broadly than the M16 (it was issued to officer's, Scouts, Dog handler's, RTOs and the SAS as they chose, even the SAS rarely deplayed a patrol only armed with M16s). The M60 remained issued at the same rate we had MGs prior to Vietnam. The M16 (with the exception of the SAS in particular) was a replacement more for the Owen/F1 SMGs than the SLR.
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Old June 17, 2019, 06:22   #19
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You guys are gonna keep talking about these C1s until I sell a child and begin a grail quest to build a C1A1 arent you. Very.... Hard to ......resist
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Old June 17, 2019, 14:54   #20
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Unlike the British and Australian L1A1 SLR's the Canadian C1A1 is void of an actual battle history for such a fine rifle.
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Old June 28, 2019, 10:20   #21
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Yep,

A proven design, but the C1A1 was never really war proven.

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Old June 30, 2019, 10:26   #22
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Has anyone here has the experience of employing an M14 in Vietnam?
Why was it pulled from the AO within a year? There is not too much public information on its rapid exit from the Nam other than being replace by a lighter M16 and the weight, lenght, heavie ammo weight loads, lack of controllable automatic firing, frequent breakage on wood and upper plastic handguards and the catching of vines and bush on the flash hider and bayonet lug proved it was not suitable for missions in the topography of the Nam. That is why trials & field testing are most important.
While I haven’t personally carried the M14 in battle, before my Dad passed away earlier this year, he told me several stories about him carrying one while he has in Vietnam. One of the stories he shared with me was when he first got to Vietnam and because he was a combat medic he wasn’t required to carry a weapon. He asked the Sargent if he was going to shot at and the Sargent replied well yes the enemy will be shooting at you. He then said well I want something that I can shoot back at them with. He then said he asked for the M14, which is what he carried. He never related any stories of his M14 breaking or having any problems in the field with his M14. That doesn’t mean he never had any and it doesn’t prove he had them either. He did share with me that he slept with his M14 every night he was in Vietnam, he was there from 1967 to 1969.

The only person I know that ever said he had a problem with a weapon in Vietnam was a guy I worked with who operated a quad M2 50 cal, he said those things where always breaking down, mainly because where he was at his fire base was attacked almost nightly and he ran that quad hot.
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Old June 30, 2019, 11:51   #23
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While I haven’t personally carried the M14 in battle, before my Dad passed away earlier this year, he told me several stories about him carrying one while he has in Vietnam. One of the stories he shared with me was when he first got to Vietnam and because he was a combat medic he wasn’t required to carry a weapon. He asked the Sargent if he was going to shot at and the Sargent replied well yes the enemy will be shooting at you. He then said well I want something that I can shoot back at them with. He then said he asked for the M14, which is what he carried. He never related any stories of his M14 breaking or having any problems in the field with his M14. That doesn’t mean he never had any and it doesn’t prove he had them either. He did share with me that he slept with his M14 every night he was in Vietnam, he was there from 1967 to 1969.

The only person I know that ever said he had a problem with a weapon in Vietnam was a guy I worked with who operated a quad M2 50 cal, he said those things where always breaking down, mainly because where he was at his fire base was attacked almost nightly and he ran that quad hot.
I personally knew two guys that carried M14s in 'Nam, pre-M16 era. Neither of them said anything bad about their rifles, other than (like so many others) complaining about the weight...one of them thought well enough of it that he not only bought an M1A, but went out of his way to make it into a legal version of his old M14, right down to adding a slotted handguard.
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