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Old April 16, 2018, 04:35   #1
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Interesting physics question

I just came up with a ridiculous, yet intriguing, physics question.

So, we know that the outside of a disk must rotate faster than the inside, and likewise the end of a pole must move faster than the base, and I believe there is even a formula for figuring that out.

We also know that the closer to C (the speed of light) one gets, the greater the mass, becoming infinite at C, thus requiring an infinite amount of energy to move it, I.E. mass therefore can never have a velocity that equals or exceeds C.

But, assume one were floating in the vacuum of space, perhaps in the void between 2 galaxies and that one were swinging an impossibly long pole, ignoring the ridiculousness of that scenario, what happens if the end of the pole were so far away (probably many lightyears) that in order to keep up with the base, it must exceed C. Einstien says that is impossible, the end of the pole cannot possibly exceed C, yet it has to in order to continue to move with the base, so what happens?

Does the mass of the entire pole, even at the very slow base, aproach infinite, becoming so dense that no force in the universe can possibly move it? If so, doesn’t that make the pole a giant singularity?

Does the pole somehow warp space around it, allowing the end to infinitely curve through space?

Something else?
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Old April 16, 2018, 08:48   #2
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I believe that as you are accelerating this rotating pole, the mass of the high speed end will increase, which increases the energy required to accelerate it. The mass at the center of rotation will not increase because it isn't moving at a high rate of speed. As the energy required to accelerate the rotating pole increases without bounds, you will find it increasingly difficult to increase the speed of rotation. Thus you will never be able to get any portion of the pole up to the speed of light.
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Old April 16, 2018, 08:56   #3
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mass is a fixed value. it is stored energy that changes as velocity increases. your question is, at it's core, how much energy can you devote to your task. the only thing einstein ever thought was infinite, was human stupidity. he wasn't sure about the universe.
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Old April 16, 2018, 09:11   #4
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Given your scenario I'd guess the end of the pole (mass) would bleed off into energy as it approaches light speed. Seemingly forever I would think from the observer's POV. Assuming it could be observed.
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Old April 16, 2018, 09:13   #5
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You are assuming time is constant at all points along the pole. Time is not constant, particularly near the speed of light.
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Old April 16, 2018, 09:44   #6
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Yes. Time will vary based on the observer's frame of reference.

No, the end of the pole will never get to the speed of light in real space-time. Mass will increase to infinity and so will the energy required to move it.
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Old April 16, 2018, 12:59   #7
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Old April 16, 2018, 15:56   #8
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Not so far fetched really. Galaxies are many many light years across and rotate around a central point.
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Old April 17, 2018, 01:11   #9
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I'm no expert, but I think you may be right.
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Old April 17, 2018, 02:06   #10
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Originally Posted by justashooter View Post
mass is a fixed value. it is stored energy that changes as velocity increases. your question is, at it's core, how much energy can you devote to your task. the only thing einstein ever thought was infinite, was human stupidity. he wasn't sure about the universe.
No, as it closer approaches the speed of light, mass increases exponentially.
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Old April 17, 2018, 08:37   #11
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No, as it closer approaches the speed of light, mass increases exponentially.
mass never changes, no matter how fast you push it. it may expand in terms of the space it takes up as speed approaches speed of light, but it never really changes, though the ability to perceive it may.
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If the concept of heading on down to the local Home Depot and transforming $100 worth of random pipe bits into a killing machine doesn’t appeal to you, you’re a frikkin' pansy. Also, you’re probably sane and will live significantly longer than I will.

Nonetheless you disgust me, and I take comfort in the knowledge that your obituary will be nowhere near as humorous as mine.


The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."
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Old April 17, 2018, 13:19   #12
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mass never changes, no matter how fast you push it. it may expand in terms of the space it takes up as speed approaches speed of light, but it never really changes, though the ability to perceive it may.
The mass changes because it is fungible with energy, the need for which increases exponentially as the speed of light is approached. Special relativity allows one to be sub'd for the other.
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Old April 17, 2018, 13:57   #13
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Yes mass does change, need proof (?), tomorrow morning go outside and thank God for sunlight!
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Old April 17, 2018, 15:30   #14
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E=MC^2 mass can be converted to energy via annihilation.
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Old April 17, 2018, 16:03   #15
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I think you are erroneously trying to combine classical physics and engineering with quantum theory to create an interesting but impractical challenge to Einsteins postulate. Even if you could make the pole infinitely rigid, the elemental tip of the pole would still become infinitely massive and require infinite energy anywhere along the pole to move it.

Don't get me wrong, there are times when combining classical and quantum physics is perfectly appropriate. Einstein himself realized the relationship between time and velocity while riding in a carriage and watching a clock tower recede into the distance. He realized that if he were approaching the speed of light, the photons of light bouncing off the clock tower would eventually not be able to reach him, thus making it impossible to observe any rate of change in the universe. IE time would slow down and eventually stand still for him. Of course, to not violate the galactic speed limit of C, every particle in his body already moving at the speed of light relative to the universe around him would have to stop moving relative to each other and scrunch down to an infinite mass.

Thats why they call it relativity
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Old April 17, 2018, 16:56   #16
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I have read about that but with interstellar scissors. The handle is normal size but the blades are light years long.

When you close the handle, do the ends of the blades exceed the speed of light to close?

The answer was no. The reason why was you would either need infinite power to close the handle, or the blades would close like in a wave that travelled down the length rather than instantly. Can't remember exactly.
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Old April 17, 2018, 17:11   #17
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Another version is to eliminate the pole and just have a ball rotating around a central point, this would seem to put a practical limit to how far away something be to be able to roatate around something else, but that distance would be dependant on rotational velocity. But I like the pole version better.
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Old April 17, 2018, 22:53   #18
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For the top to reach Light Speed,the Rotational Point would, by necessity, become a Gravitational Singularity
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Old April 17, 2018, 23:42   #19
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What I'd like to know from all you really intelligent gents is, if you're in outer space traveling at the speed of light in a car, and turn on the head lamps, will they do anything?
Or will you be driving in the darkness of space, not able to see where you're going?
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Old April 18, 2018, 00:53   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 308/223shooter View Post
What I'd like to know from all you really intelligent gents is, if you're in outer space traveling at the speed of light in a car, and turn on the head lamps, will they do anything?
Or will you be driving in the darkness of space, not able to see where you're going?

Not sure I qualify but my guess is if you have reached light speed you and your headlights are on whether you like it or not!


Of course YLSMMV!
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Old April 18, 2018, 12:01   #21
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Originally Posted by 308/223shooter View Post
What I'd like to know from all you really intelligent gents is, if you're in outer space traveling at the speed of light in a car, and turn on the head lamps, will they do anything?
Or will you be driving in the darkness of space, not able to see where you're going?
Velocity is as velocity does. Photons of light are no different than bullets:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...t-itself-down/
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Old April 18, 2018, 15:41   #22
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The tip speed of an aircraft propeller, travels a distance considerably further than the hub travels, in linear feet, but the center and the tip, both cover the exact same number of degrees-- 360 * degrees per turn, in the same period of time.

There is the rub of time travel and continuity.

Soldiers in parade going around a street corner do the same thing; inside slows while outside man speeds up.


Why we have not lost any marching soldiers yet, to the phenomenon of the outermost man accumulating more mass, as he goes even slightly closer to the speed of light is a puzzle but has to be true if the theory is true.


Developing a machine that keeps you stationary in an anchored hub, while multiple propellers attached to another hub around you, possibly even counter rotating, and filled with red mercury out to their tips, may be just the secret to get you to disappear, by climbing out the bottom thru a trap door, into another dimension.

Let us know how it works out; the Germans tried in during the Kecksburg Experiment, and for all we know some of them may still be out there somewhere waiting to land today, to utter disappointment at what German has become.

http://www.perpendicularity.org/nazi...periments.html

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Old April 18, 2018, 20:37   #23
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Originally Posted by 308/223shooter View Post
What I'd like to know from all you really intelligent gents is, if you're in outer space traveling at the speed of light in a car, and turn on the head lamps, will they do anything?
Or will you be driving in the darkness of space, not able to see where you're going?

The answer is (hypothetically) you would be able to see, just as those in an aircraft flying above Mach 1 can still hear the engines.
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