Has SIG gotten too big and lost quality?

**Thorack** · June 13, 2018, 09:04

Well,

Saw that over on Military Arms Channel they are selling SIG shirts that have Seriously Incompetent Gunmaker.

After seeing and being involved first hand in the M17-M18 MHS testing and seeing the parts issues with the P-365 I know SIG has serious problem with subcontractors.

Have they moved to fast here in the US?

Thorack

wanneroo · June 13, 2018, 20:30

Maybe so. They seem to have a lot of fingers in different pies and produce a bazillion variations of guns. Some of their stuff is a hit on the market and they've had some duds too. I guess on one hand they are not afraid to try stuff.

gentlemanjoe · June 13, 2018, 20:38

I have one of their 556R's (7.62x39)that I would be hard pressed to sell. Boringly accurate out to 350. It's the model with the aluminum quadrails. The only reason I ended up with it is that it is that the Gen I had garnered a horrible reputation for the magwell wearing excessively from the insertion of mags. The Gen II model had the problem corrected (stainless insert) but the model had left a bad taste in folks mouth. Got it for the princely sum of $580 NIB with a factory 4x prism scope. Never have had one failure from it.

Have a 522R (.22LR) had a problem with ejection but they sent a replacement recoil spring assembly and it cured it.

I think they try to rush things into production too quickly to recover their R&D cost and depend on their customers to trouble shoot problems for them.

meltblown · June 13, 2018, 20:53

Sig moving into polymer pistols like FN. Not impressed Everyone makes an AR too

lew · June 14, 2018, 11:41

Their MIM parts out of India aren't doing them any favors. Their QA/QC took a shit long ago. SIG is all over the map: some products are brilliant, and some are hit-or-miss. I remember being psyched to get a P226 Legion a couple years ago and immediately quashed that thought after shooting a couple.

**Riversidesports** · June 14, 2018, 16:39

Well, there really are Two SIGs

One is in Germany, the other in America

The German made products are extremely High Quality
Then you have those manufactured here for the American market

For example if you get a chance look over a 232
German built .380 intended for the European market
They are beautiful quality pistols that will never be imported again thanks to Obama transhipping an assload to Columbia which Germany regards as a conflict zone.

As it stands, all German SIG products are now banned from Export to America, this prohibition includes all parts as well.

SIG America is in no way an equal to SIG Germany
It's more like Taurus versus a true Italian manufactured Beretta

spider991 · June 14, 2018, 19:51

Yes

Combloc · June 14, 2018, 19:51

I'll buy a Swiss made SIG without hesitation providing I can afford it.
I'll buy a German made SIG IF I can't get it made by the Swiss.

I won't even consider a US made sig.

lew · June 17, 2018, 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Combloc

I'll buy a Swiss made SIG without hesitation providing I can afford it.
I'll buy a German made SIG IF I can't get it made by the Swiss.

I won't even consider a US made sig.

This sums it up very well.

**VALMET** · June 17, 2018, 12:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Combloc

I'll buy a Swiss made SIG without hesitation providing I can afford it.
I'll buy a German made SIG IF I can't get it made by the Swiss.

I won't even consider a US made sig.

My sentiments on SIG as well.

N4KVE · June 19, 2018, 09:44

I'd put my 1988 Sig 220 W. Germany marked Herndon Va imported gun over anything Exeter NH marked. At the LGS where I worked, they took in a bunch of pre owned 226's that were made over the years. The newer they got, the more quality went downhill. The older guns had milled FCG parts. As the guns got newer, the parts went from milled, to cast, to mim. There's no Sig currently made that I would purchase. My only regret was selling the Browning marked 220 I had 15 years ago, but since I had my W. Germany marked 220, I figured I didn't need 2. GARY

pre1989 · June 19, 2018, 16:57

Same ..They make too much and too fast imop ..Look at the number of "voluntary" recalls etc and issues with the recent run ..The MXC there AR line the 320 and then the 365

I love them but wont touch most of there AR line or the plastic guns ..

wanneroo · June 19, 2018, 20:04

I have a 2014 vintage Sig 716, can't remember one issue with it.

meltblown · June 19, 2018, 22:20

Mine are fine. Have a 320 that is a waste. DA/SA what I like.

hk22045 · June 19, 2018, 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riversidesports

Well, there really are Two SIGs

One is in Germany, the other in America

The German made products are extremely High Quality
Then you have those manufactured here for the American market

For example if you get a chance look over a 232
German built .380 intended for the European market
They are beautiful quality pistols that will never be imported again thanks to Obama transhipping an assload to Columbia which Germany regards as a conflict zone.

As it stands, all German SIG products are now banned from Export to America, this prohibition includes all parts as well.

SIG America is in no way an equal to SIG Germany
It's more like Taurus versus a true Italian manufactured Beretta

For those of us who are old enough or still can afford them the Real SIGS are Swiss From the STG57, PE56, AMT, 550 and 551 Et all and all the P210 variants Got um over the years and will die with them going to my son Those are the real SIGS The Pistol line that came out of Germany is almost flawless Having and shooting several 220 and using one as my daily carry i just would not buy a US made sig product My 2 cents FWIW

Combloc · June 20, 2018, 17:14

Real Swiss is mmmm mmm good!!

German and Swiss mix like Rum and Coke:

You can't mix oil and water so I don't have any pictures of US and Swiss, If that sounds, elitist, I'm not saying US made sigs are junk, only that there is no comparison between the two. For, example, I had a chance to compare the Swiss made 553 shown above to a US made 551. It was like comparing an HK91 to a century Cetme. The Cetme will work but it just lacks all sophistication. It's much the same with the SIG's. One rattles and shows obvious cost cutting methods because it's built for the commercial market while the other is tight and is obviously built with no thought of cost in mind because it's built for the Swiss military.

meltblown · June 20, 2018, 21:15

Nice ^^^

Elwarpo · June 27, 2018, 14:44

Guess I am lucky, no issues with my sigs. Still find my favorite is a w. German 229.

LKY_13 · June 28, 2018, 08:58

I can echo Combloc. There is no comparison to the quality of Swiss manufacture. At least none that I've found. That said, I've only ever had one issue where I had to send one of my US produced Sig 556s back. It took a few months to get back (this was during the MCX anc MPX recall). But it came back functioning like a top. All have been very accurate. Even the gen 2 556R. They are all without a doubt my absolute favorite rifles. It's just a shame that the US market never really caught on to the design. And, Sig USA ended production for more AR clones...

OFOR · July 18, 2018, 05:01

I have two German Sigs 228 and 226 both are awesome both I have owned since 1991 I have no complaints and I have just recently purchased a Sig 226 elite stainless shoots great the reset is kick ass again no complaints. I wish Sig would at least be able to sell parts they are not firearms but parts or does German law have something to play in parts too?

jhend170 · July 18, 2018, 13:24

Like any company that makes a lot of products to jump into various niche markets you're going to have jewels and lemons.

My daily carry is a P320c. I have tried limp-wristing it and every other way I can think of to make it jam with basic WWB and even my lightest personal loads, and it just runs. I love that the disassembly is stupid easy with the module coming out making cleaning all the moving parts as simple as possible. I've got an old Winny 37 single-shot shotgun that's more difficult to clean and oil than this thing. I carry it hot or cold, with days of sweat on it, with no signs of oxidation. Only mod was an Apex trigger, which just made for a nice short takeup and reset, compared to the factory, which was decent itself. Is it perfect? No, but it is very good at the job it's carried for and I trust my life to it.

hueyville · July 21, 2018, 08:20

Have been buying U.S. made SIG trade-ins and a few new then running 500 to 1,000 rounds through them to figure out what like and dislike. Then call my SIG custom shop rep and explain concerns, desires and requirements. In less than an hour have a shipping label emailed in pdf format, box it and take to FedEx. 10 to 21 days no matter rifle or pistol it returns absolutely slap perfect after their custom shop follows the personal letter include in box explaining scope of work requested to smith.

They say won't do less than four pound trigger on 1911 and have over a half dozen that fall right at 3.25 pounds. Buying used and then applying the savings to custom shop work seems to be working out well for me and have a pile of really nice guns. I swore would never buy a polymer frame pistol till purchased a SIG 2022 and now own six. Stainless slide in stainless rails embedded in polymer frame purchased on a fluke due to price point and love them for utility pistols.

June 13, 2018, 09:04	#1
Thorack Acquisition Corp Dude Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 748 Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Omaha, Nebraska, USA Posts: 12,817	Has SIG gotten too big and lost quality? Well, Saw that over on Military Arms Channel they are selling SIG shirts that have Seriously Incompetent Gunmaker. After seeing and being involved first hand in the M17-M18 MHS testing and seeing the parts issues with the P-365 I know SIG has serious problem with subcontractors. Have they moved to fast here in the US? Thorack __________________ 1. Whenever you are talking to a woman realize this person was born insane and you will never be surprised. 2. Never let Doctors cut on you unless its life or death and ALWAYS get a second opinion.

June 13, 2018, 20:38	#3
gentlemanjoe Registered FALaholic #: 77676 Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Mississippi Posts: 1,236	I have one of their 556R's (7.62x39)that I would be hard pressed to sell. Boringly accurate out to 350. It's the model with the aluminum quadrails. The only reason I ended up with it is that it is that the Gen I had garnered a horrible reputation for the magwell wearing excessively from the insertion of mags. The Gen II model had the problem corrected (stainless insert) but the model had left a bad taste in folks mouth. Got it for the princely sum of $580 NIB with a factory 4x prism scope. Never have had one failure from it. Have a 522R (.22LR) had a problem with ejection but they sent a replacement recoil spring assembly and it cured it. I think they try to rush things into production too quickly to recover their R&D cost and depend on their customers to trouble shoot problems for them. Last edited by gentlemanjoe; June 13, 2018 at 20:45.

June 13, 2018, 20:53	#4
meltblown Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 34604 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: SA Tx Posts: 14,089	Sig moving into polymer pistols like FN. Not impressed Everyone makes an AR too __________________ Giving people the benefit of the means it’s ok to screw you over. Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed. Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.

June 14, 2018, 11:41	#5
lew Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 16727 Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 8,306	Their MIM parts out of India aren't doing them any favors. Their QA/QC took a shit long ago. SIG is all over the map: some products are brilliant, and some are hit-or-miss. I remember being psyched to get a P226 Legion a couple years ago and immediately quashed that thought after shooting a couple. __________________ Statism: Ideas so great, they're mandatory. "What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." -Christopher Hitchens

June 14, 2018, 19:51	#8
Combloc Registered FALaholic #: 55596 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Maryland Posts: 799	I'll buy a Swiss made SIG without hesitation providing I can afford it. I'll buy a German made SIG IF I can't get it made by the Swiss. I won't even consider a US made sig. __________________ I ain't too bright! Forums are for furthering knowledge, not bragging about what you've got.

June 13, 2018, 20:30	#2
wanneroo Registered FALaholic #: 74891 Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Tioga County, PA Posts: 1,384	Maybe so. They seem to have a lot of fingers in different pies and produce a bazillion variations of guns. Some of their stuff is a hit on the market and they've had some duds too. I guess on one hand they are not afraid to try stuff.

June 14, 2018, 16:39	#6
Riversidesports Curio & Relic Silver Contributor FALaholic #: 36091 Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 4,831	Well, there really are Two SIGs One is in Germany, the other in America The German made products are extremely High Quality Then you have those manufactured here for the American market For example if you get a chance look over a 232 German built .380 intended for the European market They are beautiful quality pistols that will never be imported again thanks to Obama transhipping an assload to Columbia which Germany regards as a conflict zone. As it stands, all German SIG products are now banned from Export to America, this prohibition includes all parts as well. SIG America is in no way an equal to SIG Germany It's more like Taurus versus a true Italian manufactured Beretta

June 14, 2018, 19:51	#7
spider991 Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 35820 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,842	Yes

June 19, 2018, 09:44	#11
N4KVE Registered FALaholic #: 19120 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: PALM BEACH FLORIDA Posts: 642	I'd put my 1988 Sig 220 W. Germany marked Herndon Va imported gun over anything Exeter NH marked. At the LGS where I worked, they took in a bunch of pre owned 226's that were made over the years. The newer they got, the more quality went downhill. The older guns had milled FCG parts. As the guns got newer, the parts went from milled, to cast, to mim. There's no Sig currently made that I would purchase. My only regret was selling the Browning marked 220 I had 15 years ago, but since I had my W. Germany marked 220, I figured I didn't need 2. GARY

June 19, 2018, 16:57	#12
pre1989 Registered FALaholic #: 76523 Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Red rocks AZ Posts: 592	Same ..They make too much and too fast imop ..Look at the number of "voluntary" recalls etc and issues with the recent run ..The MXC there AR line the 320 and then the 365 I love them but wont touch most of there AR line or the plastic guns ..

June 19, 2018, 20:04	#13
wanneroo Registered FALaholic #: 74891 Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Tioga County, PA Posts: 1,384	I have a 2014 vintage Sig 716, can't remember one issue with it.

June 19, 2018, 22:20	#14
meltblown Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 34604 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: SA Tx Posts: 14,089	Mine are fine. Have a 320 that is a waste. DA/SA what I like. __________________ Giving people the benefit of the means it’s ok to screw you over. Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed. Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.

June 20, 2018, 17:14	#16
Combloc Registered FALaholic #: 55596 Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Maryland Posts: 799	Real Swiss is mmmm mmm good!! German and Swiss mix like Rum and Coke: You can't mix oil and water so I don't have any pictures of US and Swiss, If that sounds, elitist, I'm not saying US made sigs are junk, only that there is no comparison between the two. For, example, I had a chance to compare the Swiss made 553 shown above to a US made 551. It was like comparing an HK91 to a century Cetme. The Cetme will work but it just lacks all sophistication. It's much the same with the SIG's. One rattles and shows obvious cost cutting methods because it's built for the commercial market while the other is tight and is obviously built with no thought of cost in mind because it's built for the Swiss military. __________________ I ain't too bright! Forums are for furthering knowledge, not bragging about what you've got. Last edited by Combloc; June 20, 2018 at 17:26.

June 20, 2018, 21:15	#17
meltblown Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 34604 Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: SA Tx Posts: 14,089	Nice ^^^ __________________ Giving people the benefit of the means it’s ok to screw you over. Expect the worst, and you'll never be disappointed. Before trying to beat the odds, make sure you can survive the odds beating you.

June 27, 2018, 14:44	#18
Elwarpo Registered FALaholic #: 38498 Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: SE MI Posts: 1,027	Guess I am lucky, no issues with my sigs. Still find my favorite is a w. German 229. __________________ <-- My C1A1 and I while serving. “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing” Edmund Burke

June 28, 2018, 08:58	#19
LKY_13 Registered Contributor FALaholic #: 41000 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: UTAH Posts: 1,403	I can echo Combloc. There is no comparison to the quality of Swiss manufacture. At least none that I've found. That said, I've only ever had one issue where I had to send one of my US produced Sig 556s back. It took a few months to get back (this was during the MCX anc MPX recall). But it came back functioning like a top. All have been very accurate. Even the gen 2 556R. They are all without a doubt my absolute favorite rifles. It's just a shame that the US market never really caught on to the design. And, Sig USA ended production for more AR clones... __________________ Foi Est Tout μολων λαβε SiG for Life

July 18, 2018, 05:01	#20
OFOR Registered FALaholic #: 75195 Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Pottstown PA Posts: 123	I have two German Sigs 228 and 226 both are awesome both I have owned since 1991 I have no complaints and I have just recently purchased a Sig 226 elite stainless shoots great the reset is kick ass again no complaints. I wish Sig would at least be able to sell parts they are not firearms but parts or does German law have something to play in parts too?

July 18, 2018, 13:24	#21
jhend170 Registered Contributor FALaholic #: 76477 Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 1,844	Like any company that makes a lot of products to jump into various niche markets you're going to have jewels and lemons. My daily carry is a P320c. I have tried limp-wristing it and every other way I can think of to make it jam with basic WWB and even my lightest personal loads, and it just runs. I love that the disassembly is stupid easy with the module coming out making cleaning all the moving parts as simple as possible. I've got an old Winny 37 single-shot shotgun that's more difficult to clean and oil than this thing. I carry it hot or cold, with days of sweat on it, with no signs of oxidation. Only mod was an Apex trigger, which just made for a nice short takeup and reset, compared to the factory, which was decent itself. Is it perfect? No, but it is very good at the job it's carried for and I trust my life to it.

July 21, 2018, 08:20	#22
hueyville Registered Bronze Contributor FALaholic #: 74557 Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains Posts: 5,828	Have been buying U.S. made SIG trade-ins and a few new then running 500 to 1,000 rounds through them to figure out what like and dislike. Then call my SIG custom shop rep and explain concerns, desires and requirements. In less than an hour have a shipping label emailed in pdf format, box it and take to FedEx. 10 to 21 days no matter rifle or pistol it returns absolutely slap perfect after their custom shop follows the personal letter include in box explaining scope of work requested to smith. They say won't do less than four pound trigger on 1911 and have over a half dozen that fall right at 3.25 pounds. Buying used and then applying the savings to custom shop work seems to be working out well for me and have a pile of really nice guns. I swore would never buy a polymer frame pistol till purchased a SIG 2022 and now own six. Stainless slide in stainless rails embedded in polymer frame purchased on a fluke due to price point and love them for utility pistols. __________________ A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T. "If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat

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