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Old May 13, 2018, 11:44   #1
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Military Doing a Big Switch

Changing their M14 based SPR/SDM rifles over to 6.5 Creedmore and SAW's to 6.8 spc II. Going to make a huge impact on surplus ammo and component markets.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...sniper-bullet/
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Old May 13, 2018, 12:33   #2
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I still say if the Army had adopted the .276 round for the Garand in the 1930s we might still be shooting it today
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Old May 13, 2018, 13:55   #3
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Originally Posted by hueyville View Post
Changing their M14 based SPR/SDM rifles over to 6.5 Creedmore and SAW's to 6.8 spc II. Going to make a huge impact on surplus ammo and component markets.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...sniper-bullet/
I'm sure that someone (and their brother and contributor friends) will be making a lot of money with this...

Just sayin'...

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Old May 13, 2018, 15:38   #4
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ammolab,

Do you know why the Chief of Staff of the US Army, General Douglas McArthur, disapproved of the adoption of the Garand rifle chambered for the .276 Pedersen cartridge?

It was 1935 and McArthur for all of his faults and enormous ego knew that another war was coming. The US military had millions of .30 weapons and billions of rounds of ammo in the war reserve. A caliber switch during wartime would be a catastrophe. So the Garand was re-engineered for the .30 Springfield round. It was the correct decision IMHO.

The .276 Pedersen was a good cartridge. A .284 inch diameter 140 grain FMJBT bullet driven at 2700 fps from a 24 inch barrel. It had superior long range performance compared to the old .30 Model of 1906 round. But not really any better than the .30 M1 Ball round with its 173 grain FMJBT at 2650 fps.

The German development of the 7.92x33 Kurz aka 8mm Kurz signaled the use of reduced power military cartridges in the coming years. A round like the .276 would have been discarded sooner or later as was the .30 M2 Ball round.

And so it goes.


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Old May 13, 2018, 16:14   #5
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It's going to change the dynamics of cost to shoot 6.8 for us fat boolit AR guys and am fairly sure when Lake City starts churning out 6.5 Creedmore it will be Long Range quality brass rather than having to look for and pay a premium for 7.62 LR though recently found a big pile of once fired Lake City LR which will feed my press for one rotation. May start looking for a second M1a in 6.5 Creedmore as sure it's going to become a popular machismo soon and having a pair will be a good idea when dot mil switches. It's always about the money, eh? That said after running my second 6.5 have decided it's a fine cartridge and with military R&D plus surplus ammo will make it much more affordable.

If I were the guy covering my brothers from a hilltop or rooftop as they moved through an area having choice of a 6.5 Creedmore M14 totally tweaked over a 308 would be much more confident in cartridge if they utilize good quality projectiles and if best isn't issued would have my family mailing me what I felt best. The 6.5 Creedmore gives an easy 150 extra yards of range with more velocity, less drop and less wind drift than 7.62. 1,600 fps is considered minimum velocity for a hunting bullet to properly expand and penetrate for hunting game. 308 goes sub 1,600 at 600 yards and 6.5 Creedmore drops below at 760 yards.



Difference in actual bullet drop is not huge if able to do range your target, do some math and understand drop charts for either cartridge.



At the 750 yard range which I consider maximum effective range on human size targets in the field with a 308 and bullet able to really do damage there is a 25 inch difference in drop between the two. Thats a lot less number of hash marks to count or clicks of elevation to twist up doping a shot. Shooting my first M1a Loaded in 6.5 was immediately sold on the combination.

Purchased my first 6.5 Creedmore in a Tikka T3 just to kill coyote where have a situation that my hide is across a lake where have 50 yards of dry land then 200 yards of water for bullet to cross before it goes back over land. The air is much different over water than land, especially when hot plus have a difference in wind speed while projectile is over water versus wind speed over land as once it crosses lake am threading between 500 foot long chicken houses which have a horseshoe ring of trees. Bullet leaves bore with crosswind that has no structure to block except a few scattered trees then as it crosses the lake there is 700 yards of water plus 200 yards of open pasture each end up stream and down from dam. Adds to almost 1,200 yards of total open territory for wind to slide across plus atmosphere lifts differently over water then when projectile crosses between poultry houses that 500 feet of no wind makes doping wind even more difficult then when clears end of houses if coyote is another 100 yards out wind may be moving 180 degreen from muzzle.

Having this big poultry farm 20 minutes from house is great as can go up in evenings at my leisure where have a multitude of targets such as ground hogs and coyote. Have shots, based on direction, that max out from 550 to 790 yards. Before the 6.5 Creedmore would carry my 22-250 Ackley Improved and/or my heavy bore long barrel 25-06 and the quarter bore was best choice but when started using the 6.5 Creedmore realized the higher ballistic coefficient really helped doping wind and down range velocity.

Love my quarter bores and its almost impossible to convince me there is anything better in their class. It's odd that ballistics are so close with 25-06 actually having a 100 to 250 fps velocity advantage at the muzzle but by 600 yards the 6.5 Creedmore that was slower at muzzle is now 100 fps quicker and wind drift has dropped proportionately. To 500 yards the 25-06 out performs the 6.5 then between 500 and 600 yards the 6.5 begins out running the quarter bore and by 900 it's significantly outperforming 25-06. It was crazy to have the quaterbore owning the fields out to 500 yards and still shooting well to 800 yard treeline at farthest point but the 6.5 Creedmore was enough flatter and easier to dope the wind that it's now my 600 to 800 yard first choice.

Only rifle have that shoots better without moving up to 7mm Practical are my 6XC's which bullet tracks like it's on rails but at far end of the longer shots doesn't always get cleanest of kills if round does not exactly hit vital area where the 6.5 breaks down a coyote even if shot drifts to rear hip, instead of limping off as trying to make a followup with 25-06 or 6XC if make same shot through hip with the 6.5 the coyote gets anchored and it's a matter of letting him bleed out or taking a second shot just to make sure have corrections made for next one that wanders out. Using the 7mm Practical is like shooting a squirrel with a 243.
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Old May 13, 2018, 16:31   #6
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Picked up a 6.5 Creedm00r case at the range and noticed less taper and increased shoulder angle, so I think they went all PO Ackley.
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Old May 13, 2018, 17:03   #7
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Originally Posted by Retired Bum View Post
ammolab,

Do you know why the Chief of Staff of the US Army, General Douglas McArthur, disapproved of the adoption of the Garand rifle chambered for the .276 Pedersen cartridge?

It was 1935 and McArthur for all of his faults and enormous ego knew that another war was coming. The US military had millions of .30 weapons and billions of rounds of ammo in the war reserve. A caliber switch during wartime would be a catastrophe. So the Garand was re-engineered for the .30 Springfield round. It was the correct decision IMHO.

The .276 Pedersen was a good cartridge. A .284 inch diameter 140 grain FMJBT bullet driven at 2700 fps from a 24 inch barrel. It had superior long range performance compared to the old .30 Model of 1906 round. But not really any better than the .30 M1 Ball round with its 173 grain FMJBT at 2650 fps.

The German development of the 7.92x33 Kurz aka 8mm Kurz signaled the use of reduced power military cartridges in the coming years. A round like the .276 would have been discarded sooner or later as was the .30 M2 Ball round.

And so it goes.


The Retired One
I knew the story. I think the .276 would have eliminated the need for 7.62NATO. Easier to shoot full auto than M1 or M2 ball!
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Old May 13, 2018, 22:00   #8
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Picked up a 6.5 Creedm00r case at the range and noticed less taper and increased shoulder angle, so I think they went all PO Ackley.
Yes, but Ackley blew out and improved cartridges at standard length.
The Cmore is shortened, both to the shoulder and OAL.
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Old May 14, 2018, 01:52   #9
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Changing their M14 based SPR/SDM rifles over to 6.5 Creedmore and SAW's to 6.8 spc II. Going to make a huge impact on surplus ammo and component markets.

https://www.popularmechanics.com/mil...sniper-bullet/
Damn it,,,just damn it.......
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Old May 14, 2018, 06:41   #10
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I remember back in the 80's when popular mechanics said that the switch was going to be made to the new hk ceaseless round that was so superior to what was currently being fielded.

You guys buying into this do realize the logistics of making a caliber switch don't you? What we use now are NATO standard, a switch would mean not only would the entire current inventory of ammo stores, weapons and tooling would need replaced but every country in the pact would have to make the switch and replace their current inventory. I mean the .gov does some dumb shit but I'm not buying this.
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Old May 14, 2018, 06:46   #11
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Yabbut, will the Creedmoor fit in enbloc clips?
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Old May 14, 2018, 11:15   #12
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Yabbut, will the Creedmoor fit in enbloc clips?

yes
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Old May 14, 2018, 11:18   #13
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Uh,

Let me dispel this. SOCOM is moving select rifles to a 6mm rd but big Army and the rest of DOD is not.

The change in ammo prices will be fractions of a cent. Knock yourself out buying the stuff, big Army and NATO will be using 7.62 NATO for at least another decade and the stuff that comes after, polymer cased rds, wont be available to civilians for a decade after its finally fielded.

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Old May 14, 2018, 22:46   #14
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Yabbut, will the Creedmoor fit in enbloc clips?
Will it extract with reliability in dirty, overheated gunz? Does it require "special" powder?
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Old May 15, 2018, 15:27   #15
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The Military already fields weapons in different calibers to units, logistically, it would be the same as now, even if all branches do it
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Old May 15, 2018, 16:17   #16
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And here I was, hoping for the market to flood with cheap surplus .308.

Again.

Seems like we've heard this song before, and I'm still waiting.
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Old May 15, 2018, 20:05   #17
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You guys buying into this do realize the logistics of making a caliber switch don't you? What we use now are NATO standard, a switch would mean not only would the entire current inventory of ammo stores, weapons and tooling would need replaced but every country in the pact would have to make the switch and replace their current inventory. I mean the .gov does some dumb shit but I'm not buying this.
Has happened at least twice just in NATO
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Old May 16, 2018, 15:05   #18
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Uh,

Let me dispel this. SOCOM is moving select rifles to a 6mm rd but big Army and the rest of DOD is not.

The change in ammo prices will be fractions of a cent. Knock yourself out buying the stuff, big Army and NATO will be using 7.62 NATO for at least another decade and the stuff that comes after, polymer cased rds, wont be available to civilians for a decade after its finally fielded.

Thorack
Thanks for saying this.

Again.
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Old May 16, 2018, 16:34   #19
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From Soldier Systems 3/23/2018:

Quote:
Last month, the command conducted a reliability test, using two incumbent weapons, currently in US service; the FN SCAR Heavy and KAC M110. Two weapons of each type were used, one was in 260 Remington and the other in 6.5 CM. What they found is that both weapons performed just as well and were just as reliable in either caliber.

As both cartridges were similarly accurate and reliable, the determining factor for selection of 6.5 CM would end up being trade space. The prevailing attitude is that there was more room with the 6.5 CM to further develop projectiles and loads.

I don’t expect a major announcement, or any fanfare with this decision. Instead, you’ll begin to see small movements toward configuring weapons to utilize this round. At the USASOC Sniper Competition, there were several weapons in 6.5 CM. Yesterday, we gave a little tease on Instagram of a Knight’s Armament Co M110 in 6.5 CM.
http://soldiersystems.net/2018/03/23...adopts-6-5-cm/

BTW link has a chart with quote claiming 6.5 Creedmore doubles the hit probability at 1,000 yards.

Jane's on the 6.8 SAW 3/27/2018:

Quote:
“We used a government-developed 6.8 [mm] round as a point of departure” for the SAW replacement, Brig Gen Donahue said, but the army is being flexible with the calibre in case industry finds another, better solution.

“It’s a very aggressive plan to get that first SAW replacement out,” Brig Gen Donahue said, but he declined to say what the schedule would be or how a possible new calibre might factor into that programme.
http://www.janes.com/article/78895/u...saw-m4-carbine

Have to filter dates as search as well as use sites such as Military Times, Soldier Systems, Jane's and others. I linked the Popular Mechanics as it had information on both projects in a single article. These are actually short term stop gap measures that can be done on existing systems as can swap a few parts and be running a better ammo for each weapon as 5.56 has stopping power issues and the 7.62×54 combloc is giving enemy a range advantage over 7.62×51.

Don't give up on the 30 caliber as dot gov has put billions into research and production of 7.62 projectiles as seen recently with the new M80A1. But for now we need to get more range out of our squad and platoon level SDM/SPR MOS troops and need a lightweight but harder hitting squad level SAW as each squad gets two with T,O&E specifying one SAW per fire team. These guys are moving fast and light and need knock down. The 6.8 gives the SAW gunners their sock-em and the SDM/SPR shooters the range to work in counter sniper roles or engage enemy mortar crews.

I am all about practicality, in a man on man firefight in most situations where need to put someone down in civilian gun fight I want knock down. If someone is over 250 yards away it's going to be long odds will be a threat. I actually see about 75 yards as maximum realistic gunfight range and why I have gone from zero 6.8's to sixteen 6.8's in recent years. Due to 35 states recognizing my Georgia GWL/CCW and most not allowing loaded rifles in vehicles have determined an AR pistol is only way to go in truck.

Built five so far, 12.5" 6.8, 10.5" 6.8, 10.5" 5.56, 7.5" 6.8 and 5.5" 5.56. Discovered a few states don't allow a 12.5" barrel as a loaded "pistol" and state barrel has to be shorter than 12". Used variety of buffers and gas systems which thus far a 10.5" 6.8 with KAK Shockwave standard length pistol brace kit with piston drive has the edge in firepower out to 200 yards in a pistol. Wife is currently on a trip visiting family in four or five states that recognize her carry license and the 10.5" Noveske 6.8 piston drive build is in the lock of her truck. Have another 10.5" 6.8 barrel and piston drive kit on bench to finish when get out of house arrest following today's nerve block.

Did go downstairs was going to organize bench, packed away 1,600 rounds of milsurp XM68GD 6.8 ammo and a 30 caliber ammo can holds 400 in original box almost perfectly. That was too much on back with anesthesia wearing off so packed 10,000 CCI #41 military small rifle primers up and 5,000 CCI #34 large rifles up and decided needed to follow doctors orders and sit on my @$$. Tomorrow going to build a 10/22 as will be in house arrest quandary till about 1 pm and then will be late to get out. Friday am supposed to only do light duty and it's also going to be a rain day so plan to build up the second 10.5" piston drive 6.8 on KAK Shockwave kit to replace the 7.5" 6.8 in truck now as buffer and barrel are too short.

I have shot with a lot of combat veterans from middle east and most can't hit much past about 200 yards without volume of fire but a few can dust someone at 800 yards with my nicer 5.56 builds or M1a's. A big issue is when encounter a danger close threat need it to go down with first hit. 6.8 does that much better than 5.56. I believe average soldier will keep his 5.56 M4, SAW gunners will get 6.8 and the guys using M14's, SCAR's and AR 10's will be swapped to 6.5 Creedmore along with the Mk 48's.

My guess is this will be a stopgap measure to operate on the current modern battlefield and in next decade we will see the first generation of polymer case cartridges being fielded where most will likely all be based on same diameter projectile with 6.5, 6.8 or 7.62 winning out and then will have say three or four case length options to hold enough propellant to achieve users mission. I am guessing 0.277"/6.8mm will win the day as give the submachine gun and poodle shooters the mass needed for their lower velocity weapons to knock down enemy and take less propellant to reach a required velocity than a 7.62. Longer and heavier 6.8 projectiles with higher ballistic coefficient would be developed for the SPR/SDM troops and possibly a higher velocity version for scout snipers. After that 338, one of the CheyTac type cartridges to 50 caliber will be mission specific based on operators needs and USSOCOM.

Am wondering how our sport and military weapons will change with polymer case ammo. Will reloading survive or will brass cases still be needed for higher pressure long distance cartridges. Sure thing is that change is coming, don't believe it will be caseless. Have fired all brass case and brass head polymer body with two piece polymer projectile SRTA rounds in two versions with 600 yard maximum range. Development and testing is moving rapidly with polymer case ammo and who knows where it will go. But after building my pile of 6.8 poodle shooters and buying my first M1a in 6.5 Creedmore if they sent this old man out into harms way based on mission would pull a 6.8 AR or 6.5 M14 this week. Who knows about next month.
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Old May 16, 2018, 17:34   #20
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And here I was, hoping for the market to flood with cheap surplus .308.

Again.

Seems like we've heard this song before, and I'm still waiting.
And at some point it will. One last time.
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Old May 16, 2018, 21:42   #21
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And at some point it will. One last time.
Not to be completely negative but, current federal law prohibits US surplus being sold as anything other than components and the UN is furiously passing laws to stop the international trade.
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Old May 17, 2018, 16:28   #22
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Not to be completely negative but, current federal law prohibits US surplus being sold as anything other than components and the UN is furiously passing laws to stop the international trade.
May be why so much IMI M855 floating around dirt cheap. Popped on another 1,200 rounds yesterday. Like the 30 round boxes as one box fill one magazine. I don't care if they pull it down, let's me reassemble using my powder and if push pulled bullets in bullet swaging die they are as cosistent as new projectiles. My 90 grain Gold Dot 6.8's loaded from pulls shoot better than factory new XM68GD. Think will need to add another 6.5 Creedmore M1a just because like the one I have a and if it becomes milspec will already be compliant. Of they swap the SAW to 6.8 will really help feeding my 6.8's. Honestly don't care what they do as I do my own testing and use what works best for me.

Edit:
If your brave enough there was a ton of U.S. and British issue equipment abandoned or given to local troops in Iraq during the withdrawal of NATO troops issued by Nobama. Blew my mind was a huge order of new desert color "coyote" body armor ordered for use in Iraq after the troops were being brought home. New equipment was passing them on the way in. A lot of it ended up for sale online from vendors in Ukraine. This was before I knew about DDTC and ITAR and found vendors willing to ship new IOTV and even more modern lightweight special ops armor still sealed in original packaging.

Was obvious U.S. issue boated across to Ukraine from the battle zone to the resellers. Crap, I was buying off fleabay and packages were shipping from Ukraine. Asked one vendor about inch L1a1 magazines and sent me a case all new wrapped in oiled paper. Was buying them like candy along with armor with all coming through U.S. mail till I figured out it might be an ITAR issue so quit ordering and vendors begged me to go back to ordering. I considered looking into import licensing but was unsure which items were allowed and which were not. I keep finding boxes from the first Nonama term and think WTH did I buy all this for, but was so cheap and all I bought
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Old May 20, 2018, 09:43   #23
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Doing some reading last night and discovered SOCOM is already using polymer 458 SOCOM ammunition in the field. Robs enemy in areas where they recover spent brass and projectiles to reuse the materials. Apparently bigger rounds lend themselves to polymer ammo at present but sure technology is moving fast.
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Old May 20, 2018, 16:29   #24
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Doing some reading last night and discovered SOCOM is already using polymer 458 SOCOM ammunition in the field. Robs enemy in areas where they recover spent brass and projectiles to reuse the materials. Apparently bigger rounds lend themselves to polymer ammo at present but sure technology is moving fast.
If our enemies have enough manpower and or technology to find and recover
Small arms projectiles to use against us? Woe be us indeed!
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Old May 20, 2018, 18:54   #25
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Well,

Big Army is worried about two major issues with the next rifle. Weight which is why the polymer rds are being further developed. Second the ability to penetrate and kill a threat Soldier wearing boron carbide body armor.

A new integrated fire control is a distant third. Prototypes for a new Squad Automatic Weapon will be looked at this year, all will use the case telescoping polymer cased rd.

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Old May 21, 2018, 01:50   #26
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Well,

Big Army is worried about two major issues with the next rifle. Weight which is why the polymer rds are being further developed. Second the ability to penetrate and kill a threat Soldier wearing boron carbide body armor.

A new integrated fire control is a distant third. Prototypes for a new Squad Automatic Weapon will looked at this year, all will use the case telescoping polymer cased rd.

Thorack
I am pretty uninformed on body armour but once they come up with a round to defeat boron carbon won't countries come up with better armour? What next, armour like the tanks have, Chobrim or whatever? Layers of different materials in a sandwich style like the Abrams tank?

I ask this because I am interested in the way you describe that the military builds to defeat carbide armour. It would seem if we are waiting ten years to field the ammo that it gives our enemies ten years to come up with better armour Ya I know the world changes but it seems to me rather than build to defeat today's armour we build ammo to defeat any armour that a man can wear.
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Old May 21, 2018, 05:15   #27
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Well,

When you invent armor that protects as well as ceramic boron carbide that weighs less you'll be a millionaire. We can only test and design to what we know. US Soldiers including myself that are currently issued boron carbide body armor praise the stuff for being able to defeat multiple rds of 7.62x54r and even the old black tip AP 7.62 NATO.

Soldiers all hate that the fact that body armor weighs close to 40 lbs. We might have to develop a laser gun when the chinese invent the terminator but we aint there yet. Your average chinamen is going to have a harder time carrying 40lbs of body armor than a US Soldier.

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Old May 21, 2018, 05:43   #28
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If the past 75 years have taught us anything, it is that our enemies will be 3rd world, no armor insurgencies.
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Old May 21, 2018, 08:37   #29
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Trying to think what I would do if the enemy had body armor that defeated rifel rounds. Maybe try explosive and incendiary ammunition.
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Old May 21, 2018, 20:36   #30
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Trying to think what I would do if the enemy had body armor that defeated rifel rounds. Maybe try explosive and incendiary ammunition.
...or aim low and hit the legs. Or the head. 40 Lbs. of body armor and legs that won't work would seriously suck. Like a tank off its tracks.
I can't fathom why they'd switch to the 6.5 creed and still keep the M14 to deliver it. Why no just chamber the scar17 for it instead?
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Old May 21, 2018, 20:52   #31
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Trying to think what I would do if the enemy had body armor that defeated rifel rounds. Maybe try explosive and incendiary ammunition.
Depends on who you define as the enemy.

Current (and several years old, now) US ESAPI plates are designed to defeat three rounds of .30 CAL M2 AP.

Just sayin'...

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Old May 21, 2018, 21:35   #32
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Yeah,

Thats the minimum requirement and doesnt mention the dispersion of those rounds. The ESAPI plates will take more than 3 AP rds if they are dispersed. After three rds though the Soldier is knocked on his ass and has a bruised chest maybe cracked ribs. My Soldiers also said it was hard to breath for awhile. The Soldier was out of the fight for a few minutes, but could move and return aimed fire a few minutes after being shot.

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Old May 21, 2018, 23:06   #33
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Well,

When you invent armor that protects as well as ceramic boron carbide that weighs less you'll be a millionaire. We can only test and design to what we know. US Soldiers including myself that are currently issued boron carbide body armor praise the stuff for being able to defeat multiple rds of 7.62x54r and even the old black tip AP 7.62 NATO.

Soldiers all hate that the fact that body armor weighs close to 40 lbs. We might have to develop a laser gun when the chinese invent the terminator but we aint there yet. Your average chinamen is going to have a harder time carrying 40lbs of body armor than a US Soldier.

Thorack
Thanks, I get it now. I am thinking the war of the future there won't be many full battles at rifle range. Drones and IEDs will probably be big players. If you can't shoot a man then blow him up.
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Old May 21, 2018, 23:09   #34
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Do you know why the Chief of Staff of the US Army, General Douglas McArthur
The Retired One
That would be General Douglas MacArthur.

It does matter..
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Old May 21, 2018, 23:12   #35
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Chobrim or whatever?
What the fukc is "chobrim"?
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Old May 21, 2018, 23:50   #36
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What the fukc is "chobrim"?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour
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Old May 22, 2018, 08:39   #37
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That's kinda what I came up with as well, but correct spelling (especially on something like that) really is kind of important...
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Old May 22, 2018, 10:21   #38
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...or aim low and hit the legs. Or the head. 40 Lbs. of body armor and legs that won't work would seriously suck. Like a tank off its tracks.
I can't fathom why they'd switch to the 6.5 creed and still keep the M14 to deliver it. Why no just chamber the scar17 for it instead?
They are switching SCAR's over to 6.5 Creedmore as well. The goal is to make current systems already paid for as lethal as possible while they develop the telescoping polymer round and weapons systems. As an aside the leading company started by an Air Force General in polymer ammo technology was recently purchased by Ruger. Ruger is selling the projectiles they developed in brass cases.

Same with the saw project. There is another specialty company (MGA) has developed an upgrade for the our existing SAW's and a new size disentigrating link so that based on a team or units area of operation or type of operation armorer can swap them from 5.56 to 6.8 or 300 BO and the bigger guns back and forth from 308 to 6.5 Creedmore and 260 but dot mil has already abandoned 260. Allows us to use inventoried ammunition when best but when a special ops team needs longer range just hand them M14's or SCAR'Ss in 6.5 Creedmore. As to why not SCAR's and abandon the old M14 take a SCAR and a nicely tuned M1a and run them at 600 meters. We have tons of paid for M14's but not SCAR's. This is finger in the dike plugging leaks till a new bigger and better dam gets designed and built.

As to armor that defeats rifle rounds the plates in two of my personal kits will stop 30-06 black tip and 300 Win Mag. Also there is an entirely new armor using Non-Newtonian fluids being tested by universities and military agencies around they world with blends of Kevlar and Non-Newtonian liquids layered and quilted already being tested in the field. I have already played with half a dozen different common materials for barriers that of which showed one to a big company who said if went to expense to patent dot mil would classify and be waste of my money. Would not be able to submit for UL 762 certification once they did so or sell the idea. I do not have resources to do much with Non-NewtonIan fluids but did sew up some panels where my fluid was used to disperse back face signature not increase threat level and that's easy. Works much better than most of the advanced foams for dispersing force if able to keep it from all settling to bottom of panel.

Thorack, go look at Hardwire plates. Like Protech and others small companies that invent a better plate Safariland buys them and absorbs under their umbrella. Also look at their Protech line which performs as well as ceramic boron at 1/4 to 1/3 the weight. Hardwire exceeds it and moves into Level 4 at slightly less weight. What sucks about Boron Carbide is it breaks if you drop it. Our troops could have same or higher protection than do but right now private companies hold the patents and dot gov can't afford to issue to all but special ops.

Question was asked where enemy got rifle rated armor. Obama left it in Iraq by the metric ton in warehouses for ISIS and Taliban to just haul off. It's why M80A1 and M855A1 had to be rushed to Afghanistan. Enemy was wearing same armor we are. Brits and Aussies have already done serious armor upgrades for troops in Afganistan.

Ammolab asked about who has technology to recover our brass and projectiles to reuse? It's the third world tribal fighters sending 12 year old kids out to find it along with be the ones blown up by mines. Was another comment made about third world countries not being able to field armor, they can easily buy it with money made from drug trade from vendors in places like the Ukraine. I have used PayPal to buy new U.S. issue armor from vendors in Ukraine and it showed up via U.S. Mail. Think third world countries and poppy or cocaine funded ragtag militias can't do the same? Obama f**cked us leaving tons of front line gear stacked for the taking in his rush to fulfill his promise to get the troops home fast.
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Old May 22, 2018, 14:12   #39
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Well,

As far as we know Boron Carbide plates are probably the body armor best solution so far. I know the Russians for awhile used Kevlar reinforced thin Titanium plates but that was 15+ years ago.

If a foreign country has come up with something better and isn't tied to US law we haven't yet heard about it or seen it being issued to frontline conventional troops.

I don't think the Russians RATNIK gear uses boron Carbide but they do use ceramic plates. Who knows what the Chinese issue but I doubt it boron Carbide plates.

Don't let the naysayers kid you my ESAPI plates have taken three deployments and numerous training exercises and haven't cracked yet, they are tougher than some folks write about

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Old May 23, 2018, 22:40   #40
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I remember back in the 80's when popular mechanics said that the switch was going to be made to the new hk ceaseless round that was so superior to what was currently being fielded.

You guys buying into this do realize the logistics of making a caliber switch don't you? What we use now are NATO standard, a switch would mean not only would the entire current inventory of ammo stores, weapons and tooling would need replaced but every country in the pact would have to make the switch and replace their current inventory. I mean the .gov does some dumb shit but I'm not buying this.
For the switch from 7.62 to 6.5 for the snipers, logistically it would be the same as they have special 308 match ammo. Replace one special match ammo with another.

Right now the military has at least 2 5.56 rounds, drop one and replace it with the 6.8. Again logistically the same number of SKUs.
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Old May 23, 2018, 22:46   #41
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If our enemies have enough manpower and or technology to find and recover
Small arms projectiles to use against us? Woe be us indeed!
There is a lot of brass left after a firefight, and plenty of time to be picked up by kids. Not hard melting it and turning it into other things. A block of c4 surrounded by brass casings makes an effective improvised claymore, seen one go off.
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