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Old September 05, 2018, 14:39   #1
raubvogel
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Bondarms Derringer

Before you say this post is off-topic, allow me to tie in to revolvers in good time.

I just received an email about a 4" barrel 2 round .357 derringer made by Bond Arms in .357, model PT2A. For $677. Correct me if I am wrong but I can get 4" barrel revolvers in that caliber from decent manufacturers for less than that; and as a bonus they tend to come with a way to carry 4 extra rounds free of charge.

The concealability argument does not hold water: I have seen 9mm Derringers and they are not particularly small. IMHO something on the lines of a P238 or G43 are probably as wide and about the same length.

And cheaper. And we are not even talking about the Taurus PT111s and SCYYs and other small 9mm double stackers.

So, explain this to this curious bloke who did not grew up watching cowboy movies: what is the point of these derringers?
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Old September 05, 2018, 15:17   #2
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IMHO there isn't any point to a derringer these days. They are nothing but novelty firearms. Two shots that may hit a pie plate at seven yards if the barrels have been properly regulated. But the makers don't go to the trouble of doing this.

I'll make do with my S&W M642 Airweight .38 Special. Five rounds and I can actually hit a three inch target center at ten yards with all rounds. But there will always be those who just have to day dream that they are the actor Richard Boone playing Paladin in the old TV western "Have Gun Will Travel".

And so it goes.


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Old September 05, 2018, 16:20   #3
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IMHO, nothing other than the novelty of it being a Derringer.

I don't own one. For $400, I bought a compact Glock.
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Old September 05, 2018, 17:05   #4
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The Derringer came before the revolver, and was a huge leap ahead of a flintlock handgun but are really just a novelty now. The Bond guns are the Cadillac of the genre, and are cool in their own way.
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Old September 06, 2018, 11:26   #5
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Of all the derringers I have seen, the Bond Arms pistols are the most reliable, and the most expensive. And their size is such that they are not that bad in shooting them.

But for the money they want, you can get several other models of modern day pistols with higher capacity and similar ammo. If you need a truly small pocket pistol, I would get one of the North American Arms revolvers in 22WMR. They are plenty accurate, have decent power to put down a wounded deer (I have seen this) and fit in most every pocket out there.




https://northamericanarms.com/produc...ms/22-magnums/
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Old September 06, 2018, 12:28   #6
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A novelty for sure but I have the confess that I own one. 4" barrels chambered in .410/44 LC. With the home defense combo disc/pellet load in .410 it is formidable at 7 yards. For 2 shots anyway
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Old September 06, 2018, 14:21   #7
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I guess they might also be appropriate for states that frown upon handguns with magazines of any size. "But officer, I had only *two* rounds!'
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Old September 06, 2018, 18:13   #8
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Originally Posted by tac-40 View Post
Of all the derringers I have seen, the Bond Arms pistols are the most reliable, and the most expensive. And their size is such that they are not that bad in shooting them.

But for the money they want, you can get several other models of modern day pistols with higher capacity and similar ammo. If you need a truly small pocket pistol, I would get one of the North American Arms revolvers in 22WMR. They are plenty accurate, have decent power to put down a wounded deer (I have seen this) and fit in most every pocket out there.




https://northamericanarms.com/produc...ms/22-magnums/
That's likely my next purchase.
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Old September 06, 2018, 18:56   #9
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My two cents:

Derringers have no superior application for any purpose whatsoever in the 21st century, except for the sake of novelty, or old-west style shooting contests.

The quality of manufacture of the Freedom Arms mini-revolvers is impressive. I have about as much use for a mini-revolver as I do a derringer.

Smith and Wesson Bodyguard .380 also fits in most any pocket, and 11 inches penetration, expansion to .46 caliber, and first shot as fast as you can get your finger on the trigger. Usually costs less than $300. Doesn't rust if you sweat on it.

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Old September 06, 2018, 19:26   #10
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I would get one of the North American Arms revolvers in 22WMR. They are plenty accurate, have decent power to put down a wounded deer (I have seen this) and fit in most every pocket out there.




https://northamericanarms.com/produc...ms/22-magnums/
A long time ago in another part of the world, a friend of mine carried one very much like that NAA.
Of the several guns he owned, he said that diminutive revolver was the only one that has seen 'combat'. Apparently it was convenient enough to carry just about everywhere and it was the one gun he had with him when an urchin decided to try a bit of strong-arm robbery. My friend did say that he fired it in the encounter, though he did not report making a hit.
Evidently it was enough convince Scruffy to seek treasure elsewhere.
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Old September 06, 2018, 19:27   #11
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Originally Posted by raubvogel View Post
what is the point of these derringers?
Back in the '80s our local gun club did an annual "cowboy" match. Lever action long range rifle stages, bowling pin matches with single action revolvers, etc. They were a blast!

One of the stages was a poker table scenario where you sat in a chair and held a derringer under a table (you could not see the gun) and try to hit a target about 10' away. Other than that bit of fun??????

Definitely no point for me at $677.....
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Old September 06, 2018, 20:29   #12
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One of the stages was a poker table scenario where you sat in a chair and held a derringer under a table (you could not see the gun) and try to hit a target about 10' away. Other than that bit of fun??????

Definitely no point for me at $677.....
Who plays poker from 10' away??
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Old September 06, 2018, 21:51   #13
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Evidently it was enough convince Scruffy to seek treasure elsewhere.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Invictus77 View Post
Definitely no point for me at $677.....
My point exactly. I had seen a while ago those NAA revolvers go for $200; if I had found one for below $150, used or not, I would consider for the novelty/amusement factor.

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Who plays poker from 10' away??
If your poker partners are Butterfly-style Olympic swimmers or that Chinese basketball player...
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Old September 07, 2018, 20:11   #14
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Ah, the dreaded "what's it for" question. Well if you have to ask you obviously don't get it. Got to say though, I have no use for an uber expensive derringer either. I do have three of the old High Standard derringers, two in .22 Mag and a .22 LR. Just cause I think they are cool and came across them at a fair price and had money in my pocket at the time. Kind of like how I bought a lot of my stuff. Also have one of the .22 Mag NAA little blasters. I have actually carried it and one of the High Standard .22 Mags on occasion. I don't think I have over $175 in any of them.
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Old September 07, 2018, 20:39   #15
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That's likely my next purchase.
Don't.

I pick them up when I find them under $200, play with them a while and then either someone wants it more than me, or I remember how stupid and useless they are.

It's a toy.

It's a rimfire.


It's impossible to shoot rapidly one handed.

They make\made a centerfield version of the DA high standard derringer.
Only one that MIGHT be worth having. (In very limited, unimpressive circumstances.)
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Old September 08, 2018, 14:14   #16
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A friend carries one loaded with .410 shot shells around his place for snakes.
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Old September 08, 2018, 20:09   #17
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Had a couple derringers and carried one when into the depths of the city.
Both made by DAVIS (gone now) and chambered for 38 spl. 3" barrel.
Actually built pretty good and back then $120 with wood handles !
Cocking it was a near two handed feat. Not anygood for more than 10-15ft,
if you aim for lower abdomen, you'll probably shoot em in the heart.
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I can not imagine shooting one in .357 mag !

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Old September 09, 2018, 01:18   #18
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So a little story about the North American guns. Dealer sold one to a woman brand new in the box and instructed her how to load and fire it. If you carry one the hammer fits in a safety notch cut in the cylinder between chambers. If you don't put the hammer in the notch the gun can go off if the hammer is hit.

Woman and her husband were in a Micky d getting food and the mini revolver fell out of her purse and hit the hammer on the floor. Round hit her husband right in the butt cheek and she tried a suit against the dealer but it failed because it was handled by North American Arms.

I carried a 22 lr in it for a number of years but found I had to shoot it a lot to get the ammo changed out. If I didn't shoot it on a regular basis the moisture in my pants pocket corrupted the 22 shells and only three out of five would fire. If I replaced the ammo regularly then the gun always fired. Sweat and humidity for too long.

Traveling and working long hours it was a good gun in the pocket. Heavy labor wouldn't allow a bigger gun.

Edited to add, I tried a Bond in 45 Colt 410 and thought it was way too heavy until I shot it. Just couldn't see carrying a 24 ounce 2 shot when I could add five ounces and carry a lightweight 1911
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Old September 09, 2018, 10:53   #19
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I always had a desire for a Derringer since younger days watching Wild West programs. So I satisfied the urge a bought one. Soon discovered how crude the handling was. Trigger had this bizarre geometry that ensured heavy release. Grip was short and thick and got lost in my hand.
Was a very nice piece of work, though. Those Texas ranger grips made for nice looking gun. Beautiful eye appeal. Terrible ergonomics made accuracy impossible. Painful to shoot in any serious caliber. So after collecting dust for a while, I sold it and never looked back.
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Old September 11, 2018, 23:36   #20
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Not sure why now but I had two high standard .22 mag derringers at one time. I was never able to print on paper at any range. Kinda scary.
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Old September 16, 2018, 08:54   #21
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Once apon a time, I had one of those HS 22mag derringers.
Only took a single range trip to learn I couldent hit shit with it.
AND it was of paramount importance to make sure you shook it out or opened it with the barrels pointed down,,,cause otherwise the ton of unburnt powder leftover would fall in the breach and jam it up from closing again.....
I moved up to a Jennings 25 and counted myself ahead...
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Old September 16, 2018, 22:04   #22
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My opinion for whatever it's worth:

I seriously dislike "modern" derringer designs which are often very loosely based on the Remington O/Us

The best of that breed were the 4 barrel Remington elliots with the ring trigger.
Most folks today don't understand them as they were designed jointly as both a firearm and blunt force trauma weapon, one of the few true knuckle dusters. Play with one a bit and you can swing that little piece around your finger exposing the sharp edge of the lower rear frame and crack skulls with it. Trust me, they work well. I carried one for a time with new brazilian made ammo when Navy Arms offered it. Anorexic load for sure but it's main purpose was busting heads open if need be.

The COP .357 pistol was retarded. Problem was Treasury used to regard things even like the post Civil War Reids "My Friend" knuckle dusters as potential AOWs
figure that one huh'

The original Remington .41 RF O/U derringers are real easy shooting, the projectile is extremely low impulse, card table guns at best
these things murdered up MANY people including one of our Presidents
Need to remember out of a derringer the MV was just over 400 FPS, yeah you can see the slug in the air if you shoot at say 30 yards and have decent eyes...it's just a bit faster than a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun

Then again, the .44 and .450 Webley short rounds were not a whole lot better yet were considered Man Killers in the 19th century
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Old September 20, 2018, 09:20   #23
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Just my opinion, but I would believe one of the 45/410 models loaded with 410 00 buckshot would do a better job at extreme close range to stop an attack.

Two blasts of any of the 410 self defense loads commercially available at point blank range would provide a high probability of stopping a bad guy I believe.

To me, that is only configuration that still makes sense from a self defense view point. If you just want a new toy to blast away at things, the all of the other options/calibers make sense.

Again, just my opinion.
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Old September 20, 2018, 17:54   #24
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The original Remington .41 RF O/U derringers are real easy shooting, the projectile is extremely low impulse, card table guns at best
these things murdered up MANY people including one of our Presidents
Need to remember out of a derringer the MV was just over 400 FPS, yeah you can see the slug in the air if you shoot at say 30 yards and have decent eyes...it's just a bit faster than a Daisy Red Ryder BB gun

Then again, the .44 and .450 Webley short rounds were not a whole lot better yet were considered Man Killers in the 19th century
You might be aware (or not) the term 'derringer' is an arcane term for what we would call a pocket pistol today. The first was a flintlock (one barrel) that bore the name Henry Deringer (1850s).
As firearms technology improved so too did the sophistication of these large caliber (generally) small pistols.
Lincoln was shot with an actual deringer, a cap-n-ball model:
https://www.fords.org/lincolns-assas...oths-deringer/
This was in 1865.

The iconic Remington 'double derringer' was not introduced until 1866. The 41 rimfire cartridge was aenemic but since it often caused a fatal infection, it was frequently lethal given the state of medical arts at the time.
The guns made by Henry Deringer were probably more potent than the over-under introduced by Remington.
If you were shot with a 41-short RF from that diminutive barrel today, you would probably live to tell about it.

The action is not strong enough to support cartridges that we would now consider acceptable for defense, so modern reproductions are more sturdily built and heavier. Bond has gone beyond the original intent of a svelte palm gun and created a version that is oversized compared to other guns now available on the market.
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Old September 20, 2018, 19:42   #25
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You might be aware (or not) the term 'derringer' is an arcane term for what we would call a pocket pistol today. The first was a flintlock (one barrel) that bore the name Henry Deringer (1850s).
As firearms technology improved so too did the sophistication of these large caliber (generally) small pistols.
Lincoln was shot with an actual deringer, a cap-n-ball model:
https://www.fords.org/lincolns-assas...oths-deringer/
This was in 1865.

The iconic Remington 'double derringer' was not introduced until 1866. The 41 rimfire cartridge was aenemic but since it often caused a fatal infection, it was frequently lethal given the state of medical arts at the time.
The guns made by Henry Deringer were probably more potent than the over-under introduced by Remington.
If you were shot with a 41-short RF from that diminutive barrel today, you would probably live to tell about it.

The action is not strong enough to support cartridges that we would now consider acceptable for defense, so modern reproductions are more sturdily built and heavier. Bond has gone beyond the original intent of a svelte palm gun and created a version that is oversized compared to other guns now available on the market.
Well aware, there "may" be a flint "Derringer" made pattern pocket but has been serious dispute on that
that said, they were building wonderful tiny screw barrel pocket guns in London back in the 1700s. Center Cock, box lock pistols with a breech loading screw off barrel. Powerful little bastards

The infection deal has became more or less mythical
millions were shot and survived
some evidence Lincoln would have to but for surgeons probing around in his brain furthering the somewhat minor trauma

Allegedly when Cole Younger passed on in his 70s he still had over a dozen slugs in his body, good share pumped in him at the abortive Northfield Raid
research Bullet Hole Ellis
He took a .54 horse pistol slug between the eyes during the Missouri border wars. He lived for decades, became a politician and died a very old Man
hole "weeped" life long, never healed

If you didn't clean the wound and/or were of a weak constitution you died
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Old September 21, 2018, 21:50   #26
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A friend gave me one of those Freedom Arms mini-revolvers, with both the .22LR and .22 Magnum cylinders. With either cylinders, I cannot make the hammer fit into any of the "safety notches" between the chambers. I can't see anything wrong with the hammer but something seems to be going on. The pistol fires alright as it is. just something sorta squewy goin' on.
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Old September 23, 2018, 07:44   #27
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If I really wanted a derringer to play, something like

https://www.classicfirearms.com/cobr...blackrosewood/

has a better price for a toy/something to buy to amuse yourself without plans on relying your life on.

Quote:
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Well aware, there "may" be a flint "Derringer" made pattern pocket but has been serious dispute on that
that said, they were building wonderful tiny screw barrel pocket guns in London back in the 1700s. Center Cock, box lock pistols with a breech loading screw off barrel. Powerful little bastards

The infection deal has became more or less mythical
millions were shot and survived
some evidence Lincoln would have to but for surgeons probing around in his brain furthering the somewhat minor trauma
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It's been my experience that all you really need to harvest a deer is a car. They come right through the windshield just fine. 357ross
That poop is priceless. MFC

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Old September 23, 2018, 13:52   #28
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My niece was married to a fellow that used a Derringer in self defence. He was working as a carpenter on the Oregon Coast rebuilding or repairing motel rooms. Guy was hacking folks up with a hatchet and Byron used a Derringer to shoot him in the chest. He said he was real close to the guy.
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Old September 23, 2018, 15:53   #29
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At one time many years ago I was offered an engraved Remington O/U double derringer. Very nicely done with ivory grips. And with a box of UMC .41 Short rimfire rounds. Strictly a collector's piece. I turned it down for the price of $500 because there was another handgun I desired more for the same price.

I should have bought that Remington. Today it would be worth several times that $500 asking price.....

And so it goes.


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Old September 23, 2018, 18:32   #30
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Before you say this post is off-topic, allow me to tie in to revolvers in good time.

I just received an email about a 4" barrel 2 round .357 derringer made by Bond Arms in .357, model PT2A. For $677. Correct me if I am wrong but I can get 4" barrel revolvers in that caliber from decent manufacturers for less than that; and as a bonus they tend to come with a way to carry 4 extra rounds free of charge.

The concealability argument does not hold water: I have seen 9mm Derringers and they are not particularly small. IMHO something on the lines of a P238 or G43 are probably as wide and about the same length.

And cheaper. And we are not even talking about the Taurus PT111s and SCYYs and other small 9mm double stackers.

So, explain this to this curious bloke who did not grew up watching cowboy movies: what is the point of these derringers?
I actually own one with 410/45 bbl and 357 bbl. I love it! Fun to shoot and I do carry it in my bag while in woods. Not my primary carry but certainly a decent bag/woods/back yard gun. Regarding trigger and accuracy comments you need to learn how/where it shoots and with some practice easy to master.
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Old October 07, 2018, 10:30   #31
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I actually own one with 410/45 bbl and 357 bbl. I love it! Fun to shoot and I do carry it in my bag while in woods. Not my primary carry but certainly a decent bag/woods/back yard gun. Regarding trigger and accuracy comments you need to learn how/where it shoots and with some practice easy to master.
The early Bond arms had a trigger geometry that traveled up and back rather than a more natural straight back. My big hands on that tiny grip made release less than smooth. For me, it was not an optimum arrangement. I have heard that changes have been made to the geometry that will improve trigger release now.

Let it go and replaced it with one of those Double Tap monsters. Small in size and thin as well. Two shots same as before. Not as pretty, but with a heavy double action trigger it's safe for pocket carry and an effective deterrent at stapler range.
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