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Old February 23, 2008, 19:47   #1
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The anatomy of an Israeli Romat (Light Barrel)- curls 56K up like bacon

Ok, there have been a lot of Israeli FAL queries lately. I figured I would bust out the camera and get a bunch of photos and post. These should show some of the differences between metric and Israeli FALs.

The rifle is a dirty old SBL receivered build with occaisional cat hair sticking to it. I have no idea who built it or when except that it was more than 11 years ago when I bought it.

I have been meaning to do this for awhile and have just not gotten around to it.



Marked trigger



Beveled trigger guard



Rear sight photos













Butt plate



Sling/buttstock detail



Marked hammer


Last edited by Windustsearch; December 13, 2009 at 17:46.
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Old February 23, 2008, 19:54   #2
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Barrel markings



Flash hider









Beveled sight ears







Swivel



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Old February 23, 2008, 20:03   #3
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Bolt carrier and markings













Bolt and markings











Hand guard markings



Receiver





Missing cut over the left mag well



Missing cut forward of the ejection port



Charging handle markings




More to follow as I get them. I am running out of good light for today.

Last edited by Windustsearch; February 23, 2008 at 20:11.
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Old February 23, 2008, 20:05   #4
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great pics! thanks.
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Old February 23, 2008, 20:51   #5
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Bravo!... very nice example of Onyx Arms SBL receivered light barrel FAL!
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Old February 23, 2008, 20:58   #6
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Nice reference material. I'll take a look at mine and see how she compares !!
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Old February 23, 2008, 21:33   #7
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Thanks guys and especially JeffJ for lighting the fire under my rear.

I'll take more photos tomorrow.

It also helped to realize how bad it needs to be detail cleaned, I've put a lot of rounds through it since the last major one.
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Old February 23, 2008, 21:52   #8
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Thanks for taking the time to post those.
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Old February 23, 2008, 22:17   #9
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I'm diggin' it!
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Old February 23, 2008, 22:25   #10
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Very nice pictorial. Thanks for taking the time. I notice that your receiver has the ejector block riveted in place. It makes it one more interesting variation.

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Old February 23, 2008, 23:30   #11
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Sorry to tell you but the front sight assembly is incorrect. Otherwise excellent thread
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Old February 24, 2008, 00:44   #12
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Awsome pics. Thanks for taking the time....
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Old February 24, 2008, 10:55   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rooster
Sorry to tell you but the front sight assembly is incorrect. Otherwise excellent thread
Good catch - needs the early post and spring with "ears".
Sharp eye, Rooster !
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Old February 24, 2008, 18:06   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rooster
Sorry to tell you but the front sight assembly is incorrect. Otherwise excellent thread
I concur. However the rear sight is a nicely marked and correct "Romat" sight. Somewhat hard to find. Clearly IMI production.
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Old February 24, 2008, 19:47   #15
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Sling band and assembly- not marked





Pivot pin assembly





Firing pin, spring and retaining pin



Marked one piece extractor and spring











With spring in place- always good to have some extra springs for these



The one piece extractor is easily removed with a screw driver and snaps right back into the bolt with hand pressure

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Old February 24, 2008, 19:56   #16
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Marking on the other side of the hammer



Lower receiver



Semi auto only selector in the safe position



Destroy position



Horizontal take-down lever



Little bit of peening





This lower looks to have had one of the selectors that takes a retaining clip in the past



Not sure what this circular line is



Correct geometry of the unibrow feed ramps- also shows the chrome lined chamber (bore is chrome lined as well

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Old February 24, 2008, 20:18   #17
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Upper receiver photos







Ejector block showing the marked mag release



Semi auto only ejector block



Forward assist engaged w/o carrier



Details









Gas block

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Old February 24, 2008, 20:24   #18
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Gas plug and markings













Gas tube nut- unmarked



Barrel threads



That is all I have for today. If anyone has any ideas for items to photograph or informative angles let me know. I'd like the post to be inclusive as possible.
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Old February 24, 2008, 21:05   #19
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Just curious, but since the lower is marked for 3 positions does that mean that "they" had to drill a hole and install the pin making it semi only when "they" installed the semi auto ejector block?

I also like the Hebrew markings are so distinctive so that you can read them even after years of use. Makes for a much better presentation than if they were frosted or worn so much as to be indecipherable.

Thank you for the pictorial, I love learning new stuff. 6x
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Old February 24, 2008, 21:32   #20
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This thread should be moved to reference.
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Old February 24, 2008, 21:58   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by neminion
This thread should be moved to reference.
+1 . An excellent post with a lot of effort going into the excellent photographs. Thank you!

If it does get posted in the reference section, I would like to recommend that it be clearly classified as an "SBL - Ahim Stochinner Bros. Ltd. " Standard Barrel post-military production Israeli FAL. There are significant differences in receiver detial and engravings as compared to the Israeli Military production Romat, and and it's brother, the Makleon FAL.
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Old February 25, 2008, 00:04   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by torquemada055
Just curious, but since the lower is marked for 3 positions does that mean that "they" had to drill a hole and install the pin making it semi only when "they" installed the semi auto ejector block?

The receiver is not military issue. IIRC, Onyx contracted an Israeli firm to finish machine 80% ( ? ) FN receivers to be used in building these importable prebans. As such, the semi ejector block is original to the receiver.
Full auto is not pinned out - the Israeli selector functions differently than most other metric FALs in that FA is forward or CCW of the safe position.

+2 on archiving this to R&D, and a big thanks to Windy for the outstanding effort here
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Old February 26, 2008, 20:30   #23
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Thanks guys, and changing the title would be fine by me. This weekend I'll get some magazine photos posted, I have 10 Isreali magazines that show some minor variance.
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Old February 27, 2008, 00:14   #24
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Very interesting.
My observations, one already stated the front sight is a regular metric, I didn't even know they would fit an Izzy gasblock?
2. (revised)the gas regulator seems to not be Izzy either as it has numbers and pretty sure the Izzy's didn't. Sorry brain fart, Izzy have numbers they are not tapered on the front edge, hard to tell from this pic but this might be Izzy

3. The cocking handle is actually an Izzy HB not LB as it has the flat on the post where as the LB version is round all the way around. The LB versions are very hard to find now BTW.

4. Very neat receiver variation as it incorpirates type 3 front cuts and type 2 rear cut radius'

Last edited by moses; February 27, 2008 at 17:47.
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Old February 27, 2008, 16:01   #25
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Moses, can you elaborate on the charge handle differences between the HB and LB handles ? I must be missing it !!

I'm not sure about the Izzy gas reg - I have several type As that are alleged to be Izzy ( i.d. is a hair too small to fit regular gas blocks but they work on Izzy or very early Herstal blocks fine ) and they do have arabic numbers on them.

I've had a couple Izzy kits which had Herstal parts with them - they were again alleged to be all original, i.e. not "made up" kits, although how do you ever know for sure
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Old February 27, 2008, 17:52   #26
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The light barrel knob is actually a little smaller but the post that the knob goes on is totally round on the light barrel version and has flats on the post on the HB version.
A pic would help show this but you can see the flat in his pic.
A LB version would not have the flat.
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Old February 27, 2008, 18:04   #27
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See the flat?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg izzy hb handle.jpg (96.3 KB, 3392 views)
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Old February 27, 2008, 18:11   #28
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Ahhh, now I see - sure is obvious once you see it. isn't it I was looking at the pic of the knob ( no jokes, now !! ) no wonder I didn't see it - doh !

Thanks, moses, I appreciate the tutelage Especially since it confirms my Iz lb has the correct one - whew!!!!!!
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Old February 27, 2008, 18:29   #29
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A (hopefully !) minor hijack - does anyone know what charging handle knob the very earliest Israeli lbs used? I am referring to the type A lower, T48 handguard variant. Steel, aluminum, plastic ??
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Old February 28, 2008, 01:24   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by moses
The light barrel knob is actually a little smaller but the post that the knob goes on is totally round on the light barrel version and has flats on the post on the HB version.
A pic would help show this but you can see the flat in his pic.
A LB version would not have the flat.
Moses - Are you sure the different charging handles are specific to the standard and heavy barrel varieties? I tend to think the flat charging handle is just a later design evolution, slightly stronger, introduced about the time of the Model-C, in both the standard (Romat) and the heavy-barrel (Makleon), whereas the smaller one without the flats appeared on the much earlier Model 1A.

Are there any functional differences?

The example in question, being post-military production, with all very late design features, I'd think it is the correct charging handle, regardless of it being standard or heavy barrel.

I'm no expert of course. Just trying to learn.
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Old February 28, 2008, 07:51   #31
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Great pictorial. Thanks for taking the time to do it.
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Old February 28, 2008, 16:03   #32
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I've heard of the HB/LB differences for awhile, I think moses is correct.
The Onyx rifles were assembled on new-finished receivers with parts on hand and not necessarily matched numbers from an individual rifle. A lot of mix-n-match took place, I'm sure. Like a Rhodie, just not as drastic !!!!
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Old February 28, 2008, 20:31   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by J. Armstrong
I've heard of the HB/LB differences for awhile, I think moses is correct. ...
I have heard people refer to the different charging handles this way too, however what is the basis for this? The kits that I've seen tend to make me believe that the standard/HB barrel is not the reason for the difference, but instead, the age of the rifle. The standard barrel Israeli FAL clearly went through at least 3 pattern revisions, starting with the 1A, as indicated right on the engravings.

FWIW, if I read the posts correctly, Moses feels the pictured FAL has an Incorrect charging handle. The evidence that I have observered tends to indicate that it has a correct charging handle, or at least appropriate to the age of the rest of the rifle.

I intend no disrespect or controversy at all. I just seek knowledge, trying to get the facts. My conclusions may be very wrong.

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Old February 29, 2008, 07:48   #34
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I was told this by the Izzy guru John Hudgens, if anyone knows he should!

It makes sense as the no flat, what I call the LB version also has a smaller knob more in porportion to the size of the rifle.
The rear sight apeture is also different on the LB & HB verions
The HB apeture has a flat on the front at the base to allow it to go all the way forward on the HB 700 meter sight base.

If the Izzies made these parts specific to the HB vs the LB versions (Handgaurds, buttstocks, rear sight apeture, carry handle, gasblock, flashider, handguard spacer) no reason to think they wouldn't make the cocking handle different too. IMHO
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Old February 29, 2008, 09:22   #35
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Hello the knob on the LB cocking handle is also smaller than the HB . I am sitting here looking at both and there is a difference. I will try to post some pics later.Thanks EX1
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Old February 29, 2008, 19:51   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by moses
I was told this by the Izzy guru John Hudgens, if anyone knows he should!.....If the Izzies made these parts specific to the HB vs the LB versions ...no reason to think they wouldn't make the cocking handle different too. IMHO
I understand what you're saying about the parts patterns being specific to the standard and heavy barrel versions. All of the parts you mentioned have a good reason to be different, and in fact a couple, such as the rear sights have engraved right on them what they are for... However I'm not convinced that's the case with the cocking handle. The evidence I have seen leans toward it being an evolutionary improvement, and not just bigger because the HB is bigger. FWIW, I don't believe there is anybody on this board that has av complete knowledge of the history of the Israeli FAL's. I certainly respect those that have extensive exprience with the parts kits, but that doesn't make one an expert. Does anyone here even know what Romat and Makleon mean?

I'll be posting some information soon that may help out. Won't answer all the questions by any means, but should be very accurate and useful, especially for the people trying to understand the engravings, and to correctly duplicate them.

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Old February 29, 2008, 20:04   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by EX1
Hello the knob on the LB cocking handle is also smaller than the HB . I am sitting here looking at both and there is a difference. I will try to post some pics later.Thanks EX1
I agree. I have examined many examples of each. I have no doubt over whether the differences in the various patterns of Israeli FAL exist, my only question in the case of some, is why they are different.

The Israeli's apparently went through 3 models of military FAL, both in the "Self-Loading Rifle" and the "Machine Gun" version, as the Israelis's say. That could mean 6 varieties of Military Israeli FAL, and that's not including the earliest FN production FAL's, or the later commercial like the Ahim Stochinner FAL's.

I do really appreciate the discussion here, as we (or maybe just I) may learn something.
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Old March 02, 2008, 23:08   #38
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Maybe, because the LB kits that were complete i.e. not peiced together, had the smaller not flat cocking handle with them.
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Old March 03, 2008, 00:16   #39
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This is an excellent post....More of this needs to be done regarding other FAL variants. Anyway, here is a pic of the three types of Israeli light barrel stocks. From top to bottom....Israeli Type A, Belgian manufacture. Israeli Type B, Israeli manufacture. Israeli Type C, Israeli manufacture.

[IMG][/IMG]
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Old June 20, 2008, 19:33   #40
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A bump.
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Old June 20, 2008, 20:22   #41
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Wow, I'm glad you bumped it, windy. I missed it before. Thanks for the work, I've got this pile of stuff waiting for instructions and motivation. Now waiting for motivation...
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Old June 20, 2008, 21:58   #42
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Nice photo essay! Before this I had no way of knowing if an Israeli FAL was Kosher or not!
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Old June 20, 2008, 23:29   #43
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Does anyone know why the Izzy bolt carrier has a forward assist cut on its right side, matching the functional forward assist cut on the left side?

Where can one get an Izzy hinge pin washer thingy? I have a nice Izzy HB kit I built that is missing this part.

Very nice photos and discussion. This should be a reference sticky.

Best Regards,
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Old June 21, 2008, 22:40   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Slo cat
Does anyone know why the Izzy bolt carrier has a forward assist cut on its right side, matching the functional forward assist cut on the left side?

Where can one get an Izzy hinge pin washer thingy? I have a nice Izzy HB kit I built that is missing this part.

Very nice photos and discussion. This should be a reference sticky.

Best Regards,
Slo cat
The notch also functions as a sand cut.
Any sand that gets into the carrier groove can get caught in the notch.
There was a notch also cut into the receiver that allowed the sand/dirt to
drop out of the bolt carrier groove and reduce the possibility of jamming.
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Old June 23, 2008, 01:04   #45
ar15junkie
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Can we have a pic or two of it assembled?
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Old June 23, 2008, 08:43   #46
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Old December 13, 2009, 16:53   #47
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Bump
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Old December 13, 2009, 17:08   #48
4x401
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Thanks for resurecting this WDS.
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Old December 13, 2009, 17:24   #49
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My humble contribution to this thread. A 1967-dated kit built on an Entreprise Arms Israel Match receiver by a friend of mine...
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Old May 04, 2010, 18:32   #50
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Needed to bring this thread back. I want to see more pics of LB FAL's.
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