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Old March 12, 2019, 00:32   #101
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I've been rounding parts up to assemble another upper for my AR10A rifle. I got down to only needing a delta ring assembly and a gas tube. Armalite is out of the gas tubes. Unbelievable. I think I'm going to mod the gas block to use an AR15 gas tube. I hate having a rifle I can't get parts for. No confidence in a deal like that. Tempted to sell the whole damn thing.
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Old March 12, 2019, 06:26   #102
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Fulton Armory has the 15.5” tube in stock.
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Old March 12, 2019, 06:28   #103
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I read somewhere that someone got a “custom-length” tube built by White Oak.
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Old March 12, 2019, 09:04   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
Fulton Armory has the 15.5” tube in stock.
Thanks. I found it on their website last night and ordered two. Larue offers one that an extra 2 inches long. To make a custom one I suppose.
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Old March 13, 2019, 15:34   #105
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Fulton Armory 15.5" gas tube rececived.

This looks promising.

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Old March 13, 2019, 20:41   #106
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comparison of old tube and new tube




When I tried to install the new tube, I had hopes that I might have on-hand a new roll-pin of suitable diameter.

I have a supply of various-sized roll pins from Brownells.

The 1/16" pins actually measured to 0.070", although the math says a 1/16" pin should be 0.62". Not that it mattered because the "1/16" pin was too small even at an actual size of 0.070".

Next size up in my supply is 5/64. Which according to the math should be 0.0781" - or virtually the exact same size as the pin that came with the original Palmetto gas block. Similar to the 1/16" pins, the 5/64" pins were larger than the nominal size on the package. The actual diameter of the 5/64" pins is 0.081". I'll venture that is the size used with the original Palmetto gas block.

Remembering the ordeal of beating the tarnation out of that 0.080" Palmetto pin to get it to zig-zag its way through the Seekins adjustable gas block, I considered other options. the problem is that the Seekins adjustable block is off-center just enough that the roll pin has to do a zig-zag turn to travel from one side where it is inserted to the other side where it will emerge. For motivation, I gave the old roll pin a try, and it fought me hard. I tried a new 1/16" pin, but fit was sloppy. Enter the FINISHING NAIL - which just happens to be 0.075". Perfect. The nail went through the gas block and the tube with only the slightest friction. Once in place, the gas tube was secure, and did not rotate at all. Cosmetically not ideal. But unless you remove the handguard, it will never be seen. If I ever have to remove the nail, I doubt it would be re-usable. No problem. I have a lifetime supply of finishing nails in the cabinet.






Even got to bust out the WECSOG Dremel to clean up the rough cut from the nippers




Note that the front end of the gas tube sits at some depth inside the gas block once the cross-pin has been secured.




Here's our protrusion of the tail of the 15.5" gas tube into the upper receiver.





Fulton Armory did a good job of pre-bending the tube. Excellent clearance at the barrel nut.





Pic of the passage at the cloverleaf-hole





Clearance of the gas tube without interference with the charging handle.





Bolt and carrier assembly in full battery without interference.





Rear view of bolt and carrier assembly in full battery.

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Old March 14, 2019, 20:30   #107
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Bad news.

and

Good news.



The bad news is, the gas tube replacement did NOT solve the failure-to-eject issue. With the new gas tube, and loaded with a single round, the rifle would fire, and it would extract the spent case, just like before, leaving the spent case languishing on top of the magazine follower.

I had the foresight to take a second AR-10 (actually a DPMS LR-308T - which is a "first generation" DPMS AR-10 type rifle) to the range also today. By happenstance, the DPMS gun was equipped with a Fulton Armory bolt https://www.fulton-armory.com/bolttitanstripped-2.aspx I have been successfully testing in the DPMS gun. I removed the entire bolt/carrier assembly from the DPMS gun, and I installed that assembly in the Palmetto gun in place of the entire Palmetto bolt/carrier assembly. Immediately, the ejection problems were solved.

With the DPMS-carrier/Fulton-Armory-bolt, the Palmetto gun ran just fine.

One establishing that the Palmettogun would run fine with the DPMS/Fulton assembly, I then installed JUST THE FULTON BOLT in the Palmetto Carrier assembly (including Palmetto cam pin and Palmetto Firing pin). The gun continued to run fine with the Fulton Bolt installed in the Palmetto carrier. The remainder of the day's firing was done in this configuration.

The adjustable gas block was set such that the port adjustment was three revolutions out for all firing today. I did not try to "tune" the gas block whatsoever during today's outing.

I fired about twenty shots with Santa Barbara milsurp ammo to verify function. Then I fired about thirty rounds of a handload that has served me well through the years. 41.5 grains IMR-4895 and a 168-grain Sierra MatchKing. The pic below shows a group I fired for accuracy at 200 yards. All firing was prone, and supported only by a military sling. I am encouraged by the accuracy delivered by the Palmetto barrel. The two high shots in the group were each shots that just felt a little awkward when I fired - as though I was anticipating recoil, and tensing my body. Also the gun is butt-heavy in its current configuration. The heavy butt may simply be the reason for the two high shots. A little weight forward tends to keep the muzzle down at the moment the trigger breaks.

The rifle was equipped with a Geissele National Match trigger that weighs about 5 pounds. The buttstock was a Magpul UBR at full extension (no way I'm shooting nose-to-charging-handle) with this hard-kicker. The buttstock was equipped with the Stealth Ballistics butt-weight. Overall weight of the gun currently is about 12.5 pounds. I plan to add about another pound to the handguard to get it to balance a little more forward. Right now, with the weighted buttstock, the gun is butt-heavy.

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Old March 14, 2019, 20:31   #108
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The two significant differences I can see between the Palmetto bolt and the Fulton bolt are:

1. The claw on the Palmetto bolt is narrower than the Fulton bolt. The Palmetto claw is 0.020" narrower than the Fulton claw at the outer lip of the claw. Hard to measure the DEPTH of the claws, but my Mark I fingernail senses that the depth of each claw is pretty similar.

2. The Palmetto bolt uses a pair of counter-wound springs. Whereas, the Fulton bolt uses a single spring with a central insert of some sort of orange polymer reinforcement.

Both extractors measure 0.312" across at the location for the axis-pin.

Palmetto extractor in top of pic. Fulton extractor in bottom pic.

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Old March 14, 2019, 20:33   #109
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At this point, the gun works just fine with the Fulton bolt. I'm not sure how much study I'm going to do "in the name of science" to figure out why the Palmetto bolt continues to fail.

I'm tempted to give the JP Enhanced extractor a try https://jprifles.com/buy.php?item=JPEB-308EX in the Palmetto bolt.

Their comment in the instructions is encouraging if you take it at face value:

Quote:
Engineered to provide a much longer service life
than standard extractors, the JP .308 Enhanced
Extractor is an easily swappable component for any
DPMS pattern bolt to eliminate extraction
problems, premature extractor failure and other
malfunctions resulting from the extractor not
clearing the case rim. While designed to remedy
these extractor‐specific problems, the JP Enhanced
Extractor will not solve issues stemming from poor
chambering or over‐gassing. If your rifle continues
to experience extraction issues with this
component installed, the problem lies elsewhere.
Although, for another $50 over the price of the fancy-shmantzy JP extractor, I can get another complete Fulton bolt, and not be concerned about mix-matching parts in the Palmetto bolt - a bolt that might be snakebit in who-knows-what sort of way.

Plus, I need to make another order to Fulton anyway to get another 15.5" gas tube to install on the original non-adjustable gas block from the Palmetto gun. CMP rules have been interpreted to dis-allow adjustable gas blocks on service rifles. I'd rather not molest the Seekins block with my Harbor Freight welder to render it non-adjustable. And I don't feel like swapping a single gas tube back-and-forth between different gas blocks every time I futz with the configuration. I'll just put a new (longer) gas tube on the Palmetto block, and keep myself in the clear on Service Rifle competition rules. The adjustable block with the new tube can hang around in the spare-parts-box in case I feel like playing with gas adjustments.
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Old March 14, 2019, 21:42   #110
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You might want to try the original gas tube with the bolt that works.
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Old March 14, 2019, 21:57   #111
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Next time you attempt to install the roll pin that secures the gas tube to the gas block, try this:

Hold the roll pin with a pair of needle nose locking pliers and, using a grinder, grind a slight bevel on the starting end. My gunsmith did that when we built my first AR and it helped immensely. Also, use those pliers to slightly compress the roll pin while you tap it in. Don't squish it...just compress it a bit. Roll pins act like springs and if you can flex it on itself, it'll go in easier. Also....use a brass punch and brass hammer.
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Old March 14, 2019, 22:02   #112
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Did you notice if the PSA extractor spring was captured in the extractor hole? If not then the spring may have been upside down and binding during operation. All of the extractor springs for AR's have been slightly conical in shape with the larger diameter "base" locking in to the extractor spring hole.
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Old March 15, 2019, 01:09   #113
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The claws on the two extractors are different. I'm curious if the Palmetto claw is going deep enough into the recess of the case?
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Old March 15, 2019, 08:25   #114
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does the ejector move freely in its bore without the spring? The case getting extracted leads me to believe the extractor works.
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Old March 15, 2019, 10:41   #115
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I’m working today.

Will reply to comments soon.
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Old March 16, 2019, 15:02   #116
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Thank you for your expose on your PSA AR-10. Your comments and pics on the gas tube got me running to check mine. Sure as heck, it is the same length as your original "too short" one as it does not go as for into the cam recess as it is "supposed" to. I haven't shot it yet, but I will be giving you a report once I do. Hopefully I won't have the same problems as I do not want to, need to or have all the facility, tools, knowledge and wherewithall to work on a sick AR-10. I had enough BS with the bolt hold-open device being a DPMS one instead of a PSA one. Fortunately, they sent me a correct one. Kudos for PSA's customer service department!!!

Thanks again,
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Old March 17, 2019, 09:54   #117
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I'm getting ready to clean some of these rifles. I'm interested to see about swapping extractors between bolts.

I'd like to be able to use the Palmetto bolt. At this point, I'm declaring the Palmetto extractor the primary culprit, and I'm pulling that extractor for all further use.

I just ordered a fancy-schmantzy JP "enhanced" extractor. Maybe it will render the Palmetto bolt useable. We shall see.

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Old March 17, 2019, 09:57   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Right Side Up View Post
The claws on the two extractors are different. I'm curious if the Palmetto claw is going deep enough into the recess of the case?
Clearly the extactors are different.

At the very least, the Palmetto extractor has 0.020" LESS claw than the Fulton extractor.

My fingernail tells me the cut for the case-rim on each extractor is pretty much the same depth.

Do also note that the Fulton extractor claw comes to a sort of sharp claw. Whereas, the Palmetto claw has a bit of prarie on the outer area behind the claw.
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Old March 17, 2019, 10:01   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richbug View Post
does the ejector move freely in its bore without the spring? The case getting extracted leads me to believe the extractor works.
Yes, the ejector moves just fine. Very strong spring behind it too. I cannot depress the ejector on any of my AR10 bolts with my fingernail. I need a punch of some sort to depress the spring.

When the Palmetto bolt actually extracts a case without losing its grip halfway-through, the Palmetto bolt tosses the spent case to the same location as the Fulton bolt.

I went ahead and ordered a JP ejector while I was ordering the JP extractor. Price was not excessive, so might as well have it around as a spare/option in case I get the urge try to strip the ejector out of an AR-10 bolt. I'm hoping to not have to actually mess with the ejector. That little pin that retains the ejector can be very fiddly, and can get damaged by removal or installation.
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Old March 17, 2019, 10:08   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M90A1 View Post
You might want to try the original gas tube with the bolt that works.
That would be interesting.

Low priority test-item at this point though.

Current plan is to install a long tube from Fulton on the original (non-adjustable) Palmetto gas block and see how the rifle behaves.

I'm running out of time in the near-term for AR-10 experiments done only "in the name of science." I've got matches to shoot, and lots of driving, and several car projects in the driveway while the weather is warm.

Trying the old short Palmetto tube would be an easier project if I had a third gas block to put it on. Right now, I only have two gas blocks, and each will be equipped with a Fulton 15.5" tube. Not sure I want to buy a third non-adjustable gas block just to find out whether the short tube from Palmetto "works most of the time."
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Old March 17, 2019, 14:23   #121
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Cleaning some guns today, and decided to do some comparisons on the extractors.

Here is the Palmetto PA-10 bolt, with the axis-pin for the extractor removed. The extractor is in place to demonstrate the relatively low height of the ass-end of the extractor relative to the claw.

The point is to show that it doesn't look like the Palmetto dual-spring and o-ring arrangment provides much tension on the extractor.

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Old March 17, 2019, 14:24   #122
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By contrast, here is the Palmetto bolt with the extractor assembly from the "porris" Fulton Armory bolt. Notice how much more proud the ass-end of the Fulton bolt stands with the axis pin absent.

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Old March 17, 2019, 14:26   #123
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I have not fired the rifle with just the Fulton extractor assembly installed in the Palmetto bolt.

I have only fired the rifle with the complete Palmetto bolt, and the complete Fulton bolt.

You will recall that function was a complete failure with the complete Palmetto bolt.

Whereas, function was a complete success with the complete Fulton bolt.
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Old March 17, 2019, 14:30   #124
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Here is the Palmetto extractor assembly disassembled.

Note the two counter-wound springs and the O-ring. These are the parts that did not raise the ass-end of the extractor much in the pic above.

The springs are sufficient size relative to the capture-recess in the extractor that the springs will "grab" the capture-recess sufficiently that the springs don't fall out if you are handling the extractor assembly. However, not much force is required to free the springs from the recess. The springs can be removed from the recess without pulling so hard that it might over-stress, or permanently deform, the springs.

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Old March 17, 2019, 14:34   #125
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I went rooting through my spare-parts stash (naturally AFTER ordering the fancy-schmantzy JP "enhanced" extractor), and lookie what I found.



I wish I made as much effort to REMEMBER the stuff I hoard, as I make hoarding it in the first place.

*sigh*

Virginal.

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Old March 17, 2019, 14:36   #126
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I gotta get back to cleaing all those damn rifles, and knock it off on pics and posting. Plus I hear the coffee pot gurgling.

First, one more pic for comparison purposes.

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Old March 18, 2019, 15:35   #127
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I decided to take a look at the Palmetto website to see whether they might be selling PA-10 extractors separately.

Here's what I found (and note "NOT IN STOCK" as are many PA-10 individual parts):

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...ebuil-kit.html

Only a single spring and double O-rings. Call me unimpressed.

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Old March 18, 2019, 18:24   #128
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Last year's project:
Aero upper and lower.
Rock Creek barrel (from Rainier)
JP Bolt and LM carrier
JP adjustable FSB
JP silent buffer
Fulton LPK
Geissele 2-stage trigger
Windham handguards
Some Fulton stuff (LPK)
The barrel nut for the LR308 is longer than the AR15 and the std AR15 handguards didn't fit without dremeling. Also had to trim the barrel nut and the barrel nut spring but now the handguards are removable like the std AR15. The objective was to build a high-ish end std looking AR in 308. It took a few rounds to break in the barrel, but gets easily .5 moa with 155gr ELD-M reloads (tested from rest with scope).




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Old March 18, 2019, 19:53   #129
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Nice A2-appearance big gun.

I wish my eyesight would cooperate with irons. At least I passed the DMV eye test today without spectacles!
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Old March 18, 2019, 20:13   #130
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This thread is like watching TV. Too many commercials. I want to build one sorta, to test ammo.
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Old March 18, 2019, 22:00   #131
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I got another bolt today from Fulton.

Nickel Boron finish with the one-piece swirly-ring gas ring. I've never run an AR with a swirly-ring.

Not sure why I got another bolt. But I got it anyway.
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Old March 19, 2019, 17:35   #132
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I fired three types of ammo in the Palmetto PA-10 today, with the Fulton Armory extractor assembly installed in the Palmetto bolt.

Also installed the Fulton Armory 15.5” gas tube in the original Palmetto non-adjustable has block.

Rifle ran just fine.

I don’t know whether the shorter Palmetto gas tube was actually ever the reason the rifle wouldn’t eject spent cases reliably. I’m confident it never would have cycled reliably if I hadn’t gotten rid of that weak Palmetto two-spring extractor spring assembly.

It is entirely possible that the PA-10 uppers will run OK so long as you get rid of the Palmetto extractor springs, and replace them with a quality extractor spring, and polymer extractor-support insert, and correct-size O-ring.
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Old March 19, 2019, 22:19   #133
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My "review" is live on the Palmetto website

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...165447551.html
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Old March 19, 2019, 22:57   #134
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I'm not sure I'm finding it. I see one from a Justin but you never shipped yours back.

Bottom line: would you buy this again knowing what you know now?
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Old March 19, 2019, 23:09   #135
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That's weird.

The review was up. But now I can't see it either.

I wonder if they took it down, or if its "under review" or some such.

Here's what I posted.

Quote:
I purchased a Palmetto PA-10 complete rifle-length upper in February 2019. The upper is now mounted on a correctly-functioning PA-10 lower purchased at the same time frame.

I have three criticisms of the PA-10 rifle-length upper.

1. The upper would not reliably EJECT spent cases. About 50% failure rate. The rifle would fire, and it would leave the spent case sitting on top of the magazine follower. If there were additional rounds in the magazine, the un-ejected case would get “jammed” with the next round. I determined the cause of the failure-to-eject to be a defective extractor spring. Palmetto uses a pair of springs for the PA-10 extractor. A small spring inside of a counter-wound larger spring. The pair of Palmetto springs provide significantly weaker tension on the extractor than the extractor-springs furnished by other vendors. I was not satisfied either with the size of the claw on the Palmetto extractor. The Palmetto claw was narrower than the claw on extractors offered by other AR-10 parts vendors. I replaced the Palmetto extractor springs with a spring set (one coil spring and one polymer reinforcement-stem and one O-ring), and also the extractor itself, from another vendor. Replacement of the entire extractor assembly with parts from another vendor cured the failure-to-extract problem. I subtracted a star in the rating because of this.

2. The feed-ramp on the barrel extension was severely rough-textured due to the obvious use of a coarse-stone grinder-tool on the ramps. We can only wonder why Palmetto used such a coarse, and imprecise, tool on the ramps. The cuts were rough and irregular-symmetry. At least the grinder-operator could have given the ramps a little attention with some sandpaper. The ramps were so rough that the burrs on the ramp would tear cotton off a cotton swab if a swab was used to clean the area. Before firing the rifle, I had to file and sand the rough ramps to prevent the ramps from abrading the bullet-tip as the cartridges were fed into the chamber. I subtracted another star in the rating because of this.

3. The gas tube used by Palmetto in this upper is shorter than commonly found in rifle-length AR-10 type uppers. The shorter Palmetto tube extends a shorter-than-usual distance into the “key” on the bolt carrier. I replaced the Palmetto tube with a tube, from another vendor, which measures the typical 15.5”. I am not prepared to say that the shorter Palmetto tube contributed to the failure-to-eject problems. However, the Palmetto gas tube length is an irregularity that I chose to correct as I was diagnosing the failure-to-eject problem. Because the shorter tube may actually function OK (which I cannot say one way or the other) I did not subtract a star from the rating because of the unusually-short gas tube.

Once the failure-to-eject issue was solved, I was able to test the upper for accuracy. I installed the upper on the Palmetto complete PA-10 lower, but with modifications to the complete lower. I added an expensive aftermarket trigger from another vendor, and I added an expensive aftermarket buttstock from another vendor. So-configured, the Palmetto upper delivered very acceptable accuracy.

I have attached photos to this review to illustrate my comments.






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Old March 19, 2019, 23:17   #136
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Knowing what I know now, I definitely would have still bought it.

I wish I had known IN ADVANCE what was the major issue (extractor) and minor issues (gas tube and rough feed ramps).

I'm no genius when it comes to "fixing shit." But, I've occasionally be accused of being "the smartest retard in the room." I suppose I'm obliged to find that comforting somehow. Others might have been more flummoxed by what was going on. And there is some cost and risk that comes with doing these sorts of repairs. I am fortunate that I'm at least able to bear those elements without particular distress.

As the rifle is set up now, I like it. I like it a lot.

I still have to dress-up the MLOK handguard to bring it into compliance with the NRA/CMP "service rifle" rule. Should have that knocked out pronto.

http://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/p...8-hpr-book.pdf

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Old March 19, 2019, 23:26   #137
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Palmetto has an "Industry Partner" forum on ARFCOM.

I posted a question about what might have happend to my reviews at https://www.ar15.com/forums/Industry...on/301-291702/

I posted the content of the review that that seems to have been quarantined also to ARFCOM in their general "AR Variants" sub-forum https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/Pa...cy/121-738374/
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Old March 19, 2019, 23:42   #138
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Mirrored too at https://forum.308ar.com/topic/17348-...lure-to-eject/
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Old March 20, 2019, 01:07   #139
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I just read Mavericks response on arfcom. Can't say I agree with his opinion about the ejector possibly being an issue since you shot the gun successfully today with the Fulton extractor in the PA bolt.

Bottom line....you had a problem and figured it out. Good info to know.


Also curious about what he said on the gas tube length. To my mind, if the bolt/cattier assembly go into battery without the tube bottoming out in the gas key....what's the problem.
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Old March 20, 2019, 07:32   #140
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I can seat the bolt and carrier assembly into full battery using just my pinkie finger in the current configuration.

There is no feeling or sound or markings on the metal surface that would suggest premature or excessive contact between the head of the tube and the carrier-key.
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Old March 20, 2019, 09:40   #141
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Looks like both of my reviews on the Palmetto site are still squashed.

Palmetto sent me a reply via email.

Quote:
From: Palmetto State Armory [mailto:notifications@turntonetworks.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 20, 2019 9:07 AM
Subject: Palmetto State Armory responded to your review

ACCESSORIES AMMO AR-15 RELOADING OPTICS

You have received a response to your review on "PSA Gen2 PA-10 20" Rifle-Length .308 WIN 1:10 Stainless Steel 15" M-lo..." poor ejection - good accuracy - rough workmanship
I purchased a Palmetto PA-10 complete rifle-length upper in February 2019. The upper is now mounted on a correctly-functioning PA-10 lower purchased at the same time frame. I have three criticisms of the PA-10 rifle-length upper... (wall of text omitted for brevity). I have attached photos to this review to illustrate my comments. March 19, 2019 by Gary J

Response from Palmetto State Armory
We do apologize for that. Since all of our parts and firearms are covered by our Lifetime Warranty, if you have any issues arise from the craftsmanship of the product, we can either have select parts sent to you for you to replace, or we can have the item brought in, at no cost to you, so we can repair or replace the defective product. Please contact Customer Service so we may resolve this issue.
March 20, 2019 by Casey S Staff
You're receiving this email because of your shopping activity at palmettostatearmory.com.

We promise to use your information only according to our privacy policy.

© 2018 Palmetto State Armory
3760 Fernandina Rd, Columbia, SC 29210
1-803-724-6950
info@palmettostatearmory.com
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Old March 20, 2019, 10:16   #142
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While working at a local gun shop doing gun repairs, I have seen many issues with PSA AR15 and AR10 style rifles. This is because the owners brought them to our shop after getting the runaround from PSA about warranty repairs. According to the gun owners, the two local PSA stores will not handle warranty items. They cannot or will not (the same thing) accept a customer's rifle that was purchased at that store for warranty work. The customer must contact the main office and make arrangements to ship the rifle to them for repair. Some of the issues were just minor tightening of threaded joints (buffer tube and castle nut most often) all the way to barrels not having the gas port drilled or drilled in the wrong location.

My shop thought they may lose customers because of PSA, but their sales and customer service practices actually sent customers for us since we guaranteed every gun we sold and would repair it with no cost to the customer.

With this being said, I still shop at the PSA stores and online. I just keep an eye out for issues, inspect before purchase if possible, and purchase individual parts or parts kits instead of PSA completed sections. I guess that is why I had no issues with my PSA 10, as it started out as a lower, then upper, and was built up from there. I have had no issues from any of the individual parts purchased from PSA.
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Old March 20, 2019, 11:07   #143
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Seems PSA doesn't like constructive criticism.

They suggest that the defective or shoddy parts or entire rifle be packed up and returned to them for what exactly? Their two-spring Extractor ass'y is a faulty design, but they will replace it with another one of the same?

The Gas tube is a bit short at present, do they have a correct length to install now?

Has someone replaced the 40 grit stone in the Die Grinder with an 80grit?

PSA should have left your critique up WEG, at least the barrel was good.

Thanks for your review.
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Old March 20, 2019, 22:38   #144
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Old March 21, 2019, 09:55   #145
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Pics of the spent brass were requested. I believe the idea is to inspect the bases and rims of the cases for evidence of unusual interaction of the extractor and the brass. The most serious sorts of unusual interaction typically is severely-bent case rims. There is no evidence of bent case rims in any of the pics that follow. Except for the smashed case mouths on the cases that were not expelled from the rifle while the Palmetto extractor assembly was in-play, all the brass is unremarkable in my estimation.

The PALMETTO bolt was used for firing each batch of brass. The only thing that changed on the rifle between batches of brass was replacement of the extractor assembly with a Fulton Armory extractor assembly (claw, spring, polymer insert).
The images that follow are three batches of brass.

FIRST BATCH
This brass is Santa Barbara (Spanish) surplus ammo fresh from the factory box.
Two pics of brass fired with the Palmetto extractor assembly.
Each of these pieces of brass failed to be expelled from the rifle, and each was jammed back into the barrel extension, as the rifle tried to feed the next round from the magazine.
You can see the case-mouth of each piece is damaged from slamming back into the barrel-extension (“locking lugs”).






___________
___________
___________


SECOND BATCH
This brass is Santa Barbara (Spanish) surplus ammo fresh from the factory box.
Three pics of brass fired with the Fulton extractor assembly.
Each of these cases was expelled normally during firing/cycling.










___________
___________
___________


THIRD BATCH
This brass is Lake City Match (M-852) on its third firing.
Three pics of brass fired with the Fulton extractor assembly.
Each of these cases was expelled normally during firing/cycling.





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Old March 21, 2019, 10:04   #146
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In view of the claw-mark on the rims of each respective lot of cases, I guess it would be accurate to describe the claw-mark from the PALMETTO extractor as being less-pronounced than the claw-mark from the Fulton extractor.

I don't find this at all suprising, as the major issue that is the topic of this thread is the failure of the PALMETTO extractor to function sufficiently that the cases could be expelled from the rifle during cycling.
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Old March 21, 2019, 16:39   #147
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This thread has presented my concern about the PALMETTO gas tube.

Particularly, the issue is whether the PALMETTO gas tube extends far enough into the gas key to ensure that the rifle will cycle properly.

This raises the question of: What is the maximum distance a gas tube can extend into a gas key before the tube is too far into the gas key?

I had a tube sitting on the bench, so I inserted the tube into the PA-10 carrier until the head of the tube bottomed-out inside the gas key. Then, I marked the tube with blue tape to indicate the spot at which maximum insertion occurred.



Conceding that my measurement may be off by one or two thousandths, I’m going to say that the maximum depth is 0.831”.




Now, seeing as how I replaced the PALMETTO gas tube, due to my concern that it appeared short, the next question is: Is the 15.5” Fulton tube too long? I’m going to answer that right now by saying the Fulton tube is not too long. The Fulton tube does not bottom-out against the gas tube when the bolt/carrier assembly is installed. Moreover, it appears to me that the Fulton gas tube installs well short of the point where it might bottom-out inside the gas key.

All this begs the question: What is the correct depth of insertion for the gas tube into the gas key? One school of thought would say the insertion is correct if the rifle cycles. Another school of thought might say there is a range of acceptable insertion. I’m going to be completely candid, and admit I do not know the answer to this question.

A related question is: Does the depth of insertion of the gas tube relate to the amount of felt-recoil by the shooter? Again I don’t know the answer to this question. As time permits, I may re-install the shorter PALMETTO gas tube in conjunction with the PALMETTO bolt equipped with the Fulton Armory extractor assembly, and see if I can tell any difference in the felt-recoil of the shorter tube versus the longer tube. I am of the unverified opinion that so long as the buffer isn’t bottoming-out inside the buffer tube (“receiver extension”) during firing, the shooter is unlikely to notice any significant difference in felt recoil of one gas tube versus another.

So, back to the measurements. From a visual standpoint, how far would a gas tube need to extend into the upper receiver in order for the tube to bottom-out against the inside of the gas-key on the bolt carrier? It is difficult to photograph that relationship. But, that did not stop me from trying. Here, you see the PALMETTO upper receiver equipped with the Fulton Armory 15.5” gas tube. Lying loose atop the upper receiver is the gas tube with the blue tape. After studying the relative positions of the parts, I represent that this photograph reasonably depicts – just from a visual standpoint – how far a gas tube would need to extend into the upper receiver in order to bottom-out against the inside of the gas key.



I want to point out that the photo shows that even the 15.5” gas tube stops well-short of any point where the mouth of the tube might come into contact with the gas-key on the bolt carrier.
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Old March 21, 2019, 16:50   #148
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As a small detail, I want to add that you can see where the mouth of the gas key stops inside the upper receiver if you look closely at the last photo in the post above.

Look at the bottom face of the magazine well. Along the bottom edge of that face, if you look closely, you will see a small silver mark on the receiver. Thats silver-sharpie ink that I applied to signify the most-forward point of travel of the gas key. That silver mark also coincides with the location of the blue tape on the gas tube I have mocked-up in the pic.
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Old March 21, 2019, 17:12   #149
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Gary

I can see your review on the PSA site.

Did you ever try to fire the PA-10 as issued from PSA?

I'm wondering if it would have worked in as shipped configuration with original trigger and stock.
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Old March 21, 2019, 17:18   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nvcdl View Post
Gary

I can see your review on the PSA site.

Did you ever try to fire the PA-10 as issued from PSA?

I'm wondering if it would have worked in as shipped configuration with original trigger and stock.
Thanks for the heads-up on the Palmetto website.

My gun did not ship as a complete rifle. I ordered the lower separate to my FFL, and the upper to my residence. I never tried to fire the upper with the rack-grade trigger and crapsalapsible junk-bin-grade stock.
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