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Old May 14, 2019, 09:50   #1
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Federal deficit spending

You may have heard that the feds spent 778 billion more than they took in in 2018. You probably heard that it was all because of the Trump tax cut. But you probably didn't hear that we spent 530 billion on interest on the national debt in 2018. These numbers are notoriously unreliable, so if you've got a better one, feel free to speak up.

Thanks Obama.
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Old May 14, 2019, 10:37   #2
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I'm no fan of Obama, but a little perspective.

While the policies put in place during the Obama presidency didn't do much to bring us out of "The Great Recession", that recession kicked off before he was President.


The Congress of the United States holds the purse strings of the country. ALL spending originates in the House of Representatives.
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Old May 14, 2019, 14:10   #3
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Doesn't matter. We can never repay the debt, and the Fed Res can always just print more money, anyway.
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Old May 14, 2019, 14:53   #4
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Originally Posted by TedKennedy View Post
Doesn't matter. Because there will always be more debt than money the debt can never be repaid, and the Fed Res can always just print more money, anyway.
Fixed it for ya.
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Old May 14, 2019, 15:05   #5
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What we need to fix that debt is a good ole turkey shoot civil war to thin the #s and write off the debt.
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Old May 14, 2019, 16:17   #6
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What we need to fix that debt is a good ole turkey shoot civil war to thin the #s and write off the debt.
Short answer is yes, we write it off. The creditors have already written it off. You don't print fiat money using interest-carrying debt to back it and expect the debt to be paid back. Nobody knows this better than the creditors. So I gotta ask, why the hell are you guys stressing about this? Why don't you learn to play the game, you're already in it for crying out loud whether you want to be or not??
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Old May 14, 2019, 18:13   #7
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There seem to be a lot of 'articles' being written about the imminent adoption of MMT. Modern Monetary Theory.
When the Socialists get in power, and it's only a matter of time, they will use MMT to fund all of their pie in the sky social programs.
Then it will all come crashing down, if it hasn't already before then.


Got Gold?
Got food?
Got Guns? Oh, nevermind.
Got bandaids?
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Old May 14, 2019, 18:18   #8
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Seems like we've been using MMT for quite awhile now.
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Old May 14, 2019, 18:54   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit308 View Post
There seem to be a lot of 'articles' being written about the imminent adoption of MMT. Modern Monetary Theory.
When the Socialists get in power, and it's only a matter of time, they will use MMT to fund all of their pie in the sky social programs.
Then it will all come crashing down, if it hasn't already before then.


Got Gold?
Got food?
Got Guns? Oh, nevermind.
Got bandaids?
I am not up on some of the latest jargon but to me I'm wondering what's new about Modern Monetary Theory. From what I can see we've been in it for over 100 years now and although the marks might not have been aware of it they should have been. The information is out there.
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Old May 14, 2019, 19:23   #10
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From Wikipedia;
MMT advocates argue that the government should use fiscal policy to achieve full employment, creating new money to fund government purchases. The primary risk once the economy reaches full employment is inflation, which can be addressed by raising taxes and issuing bonds, to remove excess money from the system.[3] MMT is controversial, with active debate[4] about its policy effectiveness and risks.
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Old May 14, 2019, 19:34   #11
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Real Conservatives don't run up debt! Constitutionalists would want the fedres, curtailed!
"Damned lip serving sonsasbitch's, 'dem lying dumbed assed scumthunts from some - dog fore-saken political s****horpe collective, of fetid reprobates - relinquished power to them, we have!!???!
It's just another day at the phuquing Carnival, a Freak and clown show is showing - yet, to see the Baboons, Chimps, Lions, Highwire and Tiger act - but its coming up next!!! Seriously how did this happen? Not Trumps tax cut but the policies he inherited, from those other prior idiots, really!?
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Old May 14, 2019, 20:02   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exit308 View Post
From Wikipedia;
MMT advocates argue that the government should use fiscal policy to achieve full employment, creating new money to fund government purchases. The primary risk once the economy reaches full employment is inflation, which can be addressed by raising taxes and issuing bonds, to remove excess money from the system.[3] MMT is controversial, with active debate[4] about its policy effectiveness and risks.
creating new money to fund government purchases

raising taxes and issuing bonds

So, it is a new name / descriptor for fractional reserve banking with an unaudited source of currency.

...................
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Old May 14, 2019, 20:07   #13
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creating new money to fund government purchases

raising taxes and issuing bonds

So, it is a new name / descriptor for fractional reserve banking with an unaudited source of currency.

...................
Yeah, it's not just inflation. It's the Fed diluting the money pool
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Old May 14, 2019, 22:28   #14
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So, silly people gave the USA "stuff", for paper money, not worth the cost of the paper, not backed by gold, to be repaid at some time in the future with,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,more worthless paper just ran off the government printing presses????

OK.

Did these people that gave us "stuff" for worthless paper,, have an agreement to exchange that worthless paper for say, gold, oil, diamonds, land, buildings, etc???

If not, what's the issue or concern?

Not like we'll ever run out of pine trees any time soon, whole damned country east of Dallas is covered in the darn things.

And unlike here, no one has to water them either.
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Old May 14, 2019, 23:02   #15
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Did these people that gave us "stuff" for worthless paper,, have an agreement to exchange that worthless paper for say, gold, oil, diamonds, land, buildings, etc???
That is exactly the implied agreement and use of the 'worthless paper' that you speak of.
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Old May 15, 2019, 01:10   #16
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That is exactly the implied agreement and use of the 'worthless paper' that you speak of.
Implied is one thing, but do these creditors have a signed agreement, to take something other than worthless paper, for interest payments or to "pay off" the loans???

We've been off the gold standard for ages now.

Borrow, 1,000,000,000,,,,agree to repay 1,200,000,000 over 24 months,,,,but what form of repayment is to be tendered???

If its in the same worthless paper,,,and the person you loaned it to in the first place owns the printing press,,,to make more worthless paper,,,,well,,,,the person loaning the worthless paper, best pray, someone else is willing to take it for other "stuff" they need or want.


I believe everyone "holding our debt" loaned dollars, for repayment in more dollars.

Which only have value, as long as people are willing to accept them for stuff.

Even if people no longer have faith in the US dollar, since repayment is in the form of more worthless dollars, it would be impossible to ever default on the debt.

The USA would simply print more worthless dollars, pay the debt off and be done with it.

Now, any future loans, or purchasing "stuff",,, smart people would never accept worthless dollars ever again and demand some hard form of currency, gold, diamonds, property, etc, for payments.

The dollar can become worthless overnight,,,but can we really default on the national debt, I think not.
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Old May 15, 2019, 06:54   #17
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Implied is one thing, but do these creditors have a signed agreement, to take something other than worthless paper, for interest payments or to "pay off" the loans???
Presumably they have the authorization paperwork from the Treasury department to issue the bonds but no matter. Doesn't promise that it's gonna be paid off from what I know about it. Just that payments will be made.

As I've said hundreds of times, it cannot be paid off because there is not enough money. And nobody knows this better than the banksters at FedRes, although it's apparent to me that an awful lot of folks, particularly congressrats, don't get it. So when default happens the banksters certainly won't be surprised. To be honest the surprise is that it's lasted as long as it has. Can it be defaulted on? Well, when the debt is a bigger number than the dollars that were created from it there really is no other possible outcome if it were ever called in.

To the whole 'faith in the US dollar' argument, it appears to me at least that faith in the dollar is as strong as it ever was, particularly here on the files. How else to explain the constant 'we need to pay off the debt' threads we see constantly popping up here? If folks didn't have faith in the dollar they wouldn't be worring about it, they'd just start using toothpicks, tp or cockle shells as money. And that's just what it is too. Faith. Because there sure ain't nothing else there. Thing is, that's all that's needed.
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Old May 15, 2019, 07:21   #18
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Was reading about a guy in the Weimar Republic. He had bought a bunch of hard assets on credit. Factories etc. Well when the whole thing crashed and the cash became worthless, he was able to pay off the debt for a mere pittance. Talk about a hedge.
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Old May 15, 2019, 09:32   #19
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Was reading about a guy in the Weimar Republic. He had bought a bunch of hard assets on credit. Factories etc. Well when the whole thing crashed and the cash became worthless, he was able to pay off the debt for a mere pittance. Talk about a hedge.
Yep. When it crashes, or even inflates it's the creditors that take it in the shorts, not the debtors. Debtors can do quite well actually as long as they are smart enough to buy real things and not piss their (borrowed) money away.
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Old May 15, 2019, 09:39   #20
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Doesn't matter. We can never repay the debt, and the Fed Res can always just print more money, anyway.
And then we get into MORE debt with those bastards. The taxpayer has to BORROW money from the FED, and then pay back with COMPOUND interest. That's the WHOLE FUGGIN' PROBLEM! We'll NEVER get out of debt thanks to Woodrow Wilson and the creation of the FED.

It was designed from the beginning to enslave the American people. Your children's great-great-great-grandchildren will be paying them sons-of-bitches if we are still around that long, which I doubt very highly.

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Old May 15, 2019, 10:35   #21
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Implied is one thing, but do these creditors have a signed agreement, to take something other than worthless paper, for interest payments or to "pay off" the loans???

I don't know, but the general Idea that drives lending is to acquire a larger pile of those dollars.

We've been off the gold standard for ages now.

I'm not so sure. According to the Basel III Accord, unencumbered gold holdings of banks are now considered to be Tier One assets.

Borrow, 1,000,000,000,,,,agree to repay 1,200,000,000 over 24 months,,,,but what form of repayment is to be tendered???

'This Note is legal tender for all debts, public and Private'. FRNs, which can then be used to buy hard assets.


If its in the same worthless paper,,,and the person you loaned it to in the first place owns the printing press,,,to make more worthless paper,,,,well,,,,the person loaning the worthless paper, best pray, someone else is willing to take it for other "stuff" they need or want.


I believe everyone "holding our debt" loaned dollars, for repayment in more dollars.

Agreed

Which only have value, as long as people are willing to accept them for stuff.

Agreed

Even if people no longer have faith in the US dollar, since repayment is in the form of more worthless dollars, it would be impossible to ever default on the debt.

True

The USA would simply print more worthless dollars, pay the debt off and be done with it.

I think there is a plan for that

Now, any future loans, or purchasing "stuff",,, smart people would never accept worthless dollars ever again and demand some hard form of currency, gold, diamonds, property, etc, for payments.

Smart people are rare, but some hedge their positions.

The dollar can become worthless overnight,,,but can we really default on the national debt, I think not.
Perhaps you missed my point.
I presume that when you receive your pension monies each month, that you receive them in the same 'dollars' that are the star of this discussion.
You then take those dollars and exchange them with others for 'things' that you need or want.
The reason this works(currently) is because all the participants have Faith, or Trust, if you will, that they can redeem them for goods and services.

I agree that every adult person should understand that when participants lose that trust, that the dollar can lose all value very rapidly, instead of the constant, steady erosion of value that occurs through dilution(inflation).

One of the things that keeps this thing going is that FRNs are the only thing that can be used to pay your taxes.
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Old May 15, 2019, 10:43   #22
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Perhaps you missed my point.
I presume that when you receive your pension monies each month, that you receive them in the same 'dollars' that are the star of this discussion.
You then take those dollars and exchange them with others for 'things' that you need or want.
The reason this works(currently) is because all the participants have Faith, or Trust, if you will, that they can redeem them for goods and services.

I agree that every adult person should understand that when participants lose that trust, that the dollar can lose all value very rapidly, instead of the constant, steady erosion of value that occurs through dilution(inflation).

One of the things that keeps this thing going is that FRNs are the only thing that can be used to pay your taxes.
This is actually really interesting. Because if FRNs are the only thing that the IRS will accept to reduce a tax liability, how is it that they can seize other assets (cars, boats, securities and real estate) for back taxes and (presumably) reduce a tax liability?
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Old May 15, 2019, 10:46   #23
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This is actually really interesting. Because if FRNs are the only thing that the IRS will accept to reduce a tax liability, how is it that they can seize other assets (cars, boats, securities and real estate) for back taxes and (presumably) reduce a tax liability?
I'm pretty sure they have a mechanism in place to auction those items off and convert them to FRNs.
A mechanism like that opens the possibility of massive corruption, huh?
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Old May 15, 2019, 11:02   #24
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I'm pretty sure they have a mechanism in place to auction those items off and convert them to FRNs.
A mechanism like that opens the possibility of massive corruption, huh?
Oh yeah, but still it seems a bit 'indirect' to me. In other words they presume a value in FRNs that may or not exist. And in any case they are not seizing FRNs to suppress the liability, they are seizing something else. Something which is not a FRN and settling the debt on that basis. Which means they are indeed accepting, or at least using something else.

And if the language of the law doesn't really require FRNs to be the only legal tender for public debt, what the hell does it really mean? Or perhaps more accurately, who is it really targeted towards? Care to hazard a guess?
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Old May 15, 2019, 11:05   #25
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23rd Dec 1913 - a minority of 5 voted to co-opt the US economy, this was the theft of a nation by private interests, who conspired in secrecy to steal the economy of a foreign nation, for the betterment of themselves - at the cost of others!! The only product of a bank is debt - debt is leverage, leverage is control - that is the sole goal of central banking!
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Old May 15, 2019, 11:20   #26
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Oh yeah, but still it seems a bit 'indirect' to me. In other words they presume a value in FRNs that may or not exist. And in any case they are not seizing FRNs to suppress the liability, they are seizing something else. Something which is not a FRN and settling the debt on that basis. Which means they are indeed accepting, or at least using something else.

And if the language of the law doesn't really require FRNs to be the only legal tender for public debt, what the hell does it really mean? Or perhaps more accurately, who is it really targeted towards? Care to hazard a guess?
I have never read the law or statute itself, but my guess would be that if the tax debtor is not able or willing to pay the alleged tax debt in FRNs, the agency responsible for collecting that alleged debt has the legal authority to seize any and all assets perceived to have value when sold at auction and converted to FRNs. The proceeds of said auction may or may not be sufficient to satisfy the alleged debt.

In other words, in the quest to take the 'Kings Cut', if the preferred medium of exchange(FRNs) is not available, the Kings men are willing to take chattel, sheaves of corn, and even a serfs freedom of movement.
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Old May 15, 2019, 11:31   #27
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23rd Dec 1913 - a minority of 5 voted to co-opt the US economy, this was the theft of a nation by private interests, who conspired in secrecy to steal the economy of a foreign nation, for the betterment of themselves - at the cost of others!! The only product of a bank is debt - debt is leverage, leverage is control - that is the sole goal of central banking!
Many of us here understand this.
Do you have any suggestions as to how one might beat the system of wealth extraction that they put in place that day?

The only plan I know of is to not participate in wealth creation that can be seized.
In other words, don't work, don't pay taxes.
Most here don't want to live that lifestyle.
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Old May 15, 2019, 11:36   #28
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Originally Posted by Exit308 View Post
Perhaps you missed my point.
I presume that when you receive your pension monies each month, that you receive them in the same 'dollars' that are the star of this discussion.
You then take those dollars and exchange them with others for 'things' that you need or want.
The reason this works(currently) is because all the participants have Faith, or Trust, if you will, that they can redeem them for goods and services.

I agree that every adult person should understand that when participants lose that trust, that the dollar can lose all value very rapidly, instead of the constant, steady erosion of value that occurs through dilution(inflation).

One of the things that keeps this thing going is that FRNs are the only thing that can be used to pay your taxes.

I was just working this through in my own head.

People keep screaming, we're going to default on 22,000,000,000,000,,,,I think I added enough zero's to the debt , money we owe people around the world.
But they loaned us dollars, we pay back more dollars for interest, and,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,WE print dollars, so how would we ever run out of dollars???

Just bought mama a new Chevy truck,,,ugh,,,42 grand, a moving computer, thing talks to you and even has a telephone and wifi in it.
Gave them 22,000 in cash, well, a check to draw dollars from the bank account, financed the rest at 2.3% interest.

Now, mama makes the monthly payment out of the check book,,,but I'm dropping 5 grand or so on the total amount due every three months. I don't like loans, but mama gets upset when I drop a lot of cash on anything at one time.

All of this is in dollars. If we don't pay, they come and take the truck back.
They "secured" the loan, with a hard asset, in this case, the truck.

Our national debt is not secured by any means as far as I know.
We own the printing press, can print all the money we desire to.
So, we can never default on the existing loans???

Today, the folks at the gas station, take 2.85 for a gallon of gas, .99 for a soda, 2 bucks for a couple of newspapers.

If they loose faith in the dollar tonight, the above may/could cost me, 285.00 for a gallon of gas, etc.

Its happened before to countries, Germany had some inventive cartoons on the subject, fellow with a wheel barrow full of notes, millions of them, and he was able to buy a single loaf of bread.

Can we ever default on our debt, lokks like the answer is no to that.

Can inflation, overnight inflation, make all of us unable to buy new stuff, oh hell yes.

Everyone's existing debt in based in dollars, at least in this country.
If it becomes worthless overnight, I still only owe, say 10 grand on mama's new truck, and I'd pay off the "hard asset" in worthless paper money, and own outright, the hard asset.

Same for the house, which is free and clear, except for the yearly rent payment to the state.

So, it brings all of us back to,,,,own hard assets, free and clear, have enough cash on hand to pay off all your personal debt, in case the whole thing flips upside down.

Have something to eat for a couple of years, ability to plant/raise more food on your property and enough firearms, family, friends to hold your property against any and all comers that want or demand what real hard assets you own.

People demand guarantees in this life, that everything will always be, as they are today, that's living in a dream world.

People, need to take care of themselves, prepare for hard times while in good times, and never be buried in debt.
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Old May 15, 2019, 11:45   #29
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Many of us here understand this.
Do you have any suggestions as to how one might beat the system of wealth extraction that they put in place that day?

The only plan I know of is to not participate in wealth creation that can be seized.
In other words, don't work, don't pay taxes.
Most here don't want to live that lifestyle.
Banking does help you obtain wealth and debt isn't a banks only product. My checking account isn't debt driven nor is my savings, both are for the management of wealth. It is nice to have the ability to use debt to buy what you want and do things you want to do but in most cases it's short term debt. I don't think Trypcil understands any of this and it doesn't matter if he does because it's not the only things he has no understanding of.
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Old May 15, 2019, 11:59   #30
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Banking does help you obtain wealth and debt isn't a banks only product. My checking account isn't debt driven nor is my savings, both are for the management of wealth. It is nice to have the ability to use debt to buy what you want and do things you want to do but in most cases it's short term debt. I don't think Trypcil understands any of this and it doesn't matter if he does because it's not the only things he has no understanding of.
Don't want to put words in Trips mouth but I'm pretty sure he's talking about central banking. Your experience is peripheral to the primary purpose, and he's basically right about debt being a bank's only product. They do also create money, but they always create more debt than money (assuming positive interest rates) but because the debt counterbalances the money they made, and because there is always more debt than money, it can fairly be said their only product is debt. Short term, long term it's all the same. If the dollars don't exist for repayment, and of course they don't, then the debt can never be repaid. Doesn't matter who the debt is assigned to, doesn't matter whose name is on the account, doesn't matter what the total debt number is, if it's a single dollar or a gazillion dollars. The debt cannot be repaid if there isn't enough money in circulation/existence/anyone's pockets to repay it. And it follows that the creditors don't ever expect that it will because they don't expect what is mathematically impossible.

So yeah, default is on the table. And it's been there since day 1.
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Old May 15, 2019, 12:08   #31
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I don't think Trypcil understands any of this and it doesn't matter if he does because it's not the only things he has no understanding of.
I see it a bit differently, Jim.
Trypcil, you, me, Bubba, Juanni, etc.; we all see things from a different perspective. We have all gone down different paths and experiences to reach this place and time, and we all see things in a way based on our own experience.
That is why these conversations can be so valuable.
It is sometimes said that you can't understand a man until you walk a mile in his shoes. That is, of course, impossible.
But I(we) can experience those miles in a conversation like this.
IMHO, these threads are for learning as much as for expressing my opinion.
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Old May 15, 2019, 12:18   #32
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Don't want to put words in Trips mouth but I'm pretty sure he's talking about central banking. Your experience is peripheral to the primary purpose, and he's basically right about debt being a bank's only product. They do also create money, but they always create more debt than money (assuming positive interest rates) but because the debt counterbalances the money they made, and because there is always more debt than money, it can fairly be said their only product is debt. Short term, long term it's all the same. If the dollars don't exist for repayment, and of course they don't, then the debt can never be repaid. Doesn't matter who the debt is assigned to, doesn't matter whose name is on the account, doesn't matter what the total debt number is, if it's a single dollar or a gazillion dollars. The debt cannot be repaid if there isn't enough money in circulation/existence/anyone's pockets to repay it. And it follows that the creditors don't ever expect that it will because they don't expect what is mathematically impossible.

So yeah, default is on the table. And it's been there since day 1.
Ok let's go long term debt for an individual. I buy a house with borrowed money, a 30 year loan that keeps the payment simple to make. It's a small payment as an insurance against loss of work ect. Along the way or in 12 years I pay that house off and it was easy to do because the debt wasn't big. I used the banks money to buy my house, I paid for its use but because I was able to borrow and buy a house I have earned wealth as my house value has doubled since I bought it. You can turn some debt into profit.

Keith guns buys a million dollars worth of guns in one order. He borrows the money and gets a great deal because he spends a million at one time. He uses the banks money and turns it into profit and becomes the biggest dealer in the state. Some folks know how to turn debt into profit and banks help them do it.

Yes I know we are talking national debt and we have talked about it for years. So what's the answer this year? We add a trillion+ every year now and it looks like it will be well over 30 trillion with the next war. What are they going to do?
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Old May 15, 2019, 12:41   #33
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Ok let's go long term debt for an individual. I buy a house with borrowed money, a 30 year loan that keeps the payment simple to make. It's a small payment as an insurance against loss of work ect. Along the way or in 12 years I pay that house off and it was easy to do because the debt wasn't big. I used the banks money to buy my house, I paid for its use but because I was able to borrow and buy a house I have earned wealth as my house value has doubled since I bought it. You can turn some debt into profit.

Keith guns buys a million dollars worth of guns in one order. He borrows the money and gets a great deal because he spends a million at one time. He uses the banks money and turns it into profit and becomes the biggest dealer in the state. Some folks know how to turn debt into profit and banks help them do it.

Yes I know we are talking national debt and we have talked about it for years. So what's the answer this year? We add a trillion+ every year now and it looks like it will be well over 30 trillion with the next war. What are they going to do?
Not to make an argument, but to look at it from a different perspective.

Your house still has the same practical value it did the day you bought it.

Your houses value when expressed in FRNs has doubled. That is the new 'exchange rate'.

Is the house worth twice as much or are the FRNs worth half as much as the day you bought the house?
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Old May 15, 2019, 12:43   #34
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I see it a bit differently, Jim.
Trypcil, you, me, Bubba, Juanni, etc.; we all see things from a different perspective. We have all gone down different paths and experiences to reach this place and time, and we all see things in a way based on our own experience.
That is why these conversations can be so valuable.
It is sometimes said that you can't understand a man until you walk a mile in his shoes. That is, of course, impossible.
But I(we) can experience those miles in a conversation like this.
IMHO, these threads are for learning as much as for expressing my opinion.
That's why I enjoy conversation with you as you tend to not get riled. I throw a stone now and then just because I like to throw stones.

Yes we can read others experience and gleen from them but guys my age already walked our miles and made our own choices. Choices for those comming after us will be different than the ones we made. Nobody can walk in an old man's shoes as those days and times he lived are gone. Today's man has far different times to live than I did and honestly I don't think there is much to learn from me.

When I was a kid there was black and white tv and only three channels to watch. I was the remote. Every generation since mine has had a different life. Revolvers used to be the only guns cops would use and now most cops can't shoot a revolver. Life changes.

Under Bush we went from no debt to 8 trillion in debt. So where did it go? It didn't go for infistructure or better schools, it went for wasteful spending. When I was in Iraq the contractor charged the government near $100,000 for a fence to separate two living areas because they didn't want folks walking through. I saw truckloads of MREs burned in the garbage dump.

Obama gets in and he doubles the debt, where did it go? It didn't go to infistructure but it may have gone to the universities with guaranteed school loans. What's debt on college now, a trillion owed by young people? Selling school debt to young people for jobs they sent overseas.

Ya I am rambling but showing change. Trump is our only hope but I doubt there is much he can do so what next? Year after year the debt climbs by a trillion so what's next? Does a man take a risk and go into debt or does he try to stay out of it?
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Old May 15, 2019, 13:00   #35
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Not to make an argument, but to look at it from a different perspective.

Your house still has the same practical value it did the day you bought it.

Your houses value when expressed in FRNs has doubled. That is the new 'exchange rate'.

Is the house worth twice as much or are the FRNs worth half as much as the day you bought the house?
I won't ever sell my house so the only thing about its value is I have to pay more taxes. The real value is not having to pay a house payment first because that's the biggest raise most folks will ever get when that house payment goes away. Second, nobody can throw me out or raise my rent. The value there is worth how muc?. Last, it's a home that I pretty much own with nobody telling me how I must live in it. You can't put a value on that, no FRN can pay what that is worth to me.
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Old May 15, 2019, 13:12   #36
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Ok let's go long term debt for an individual. I buy a house with borrowed money, a 30 year loan that keeps the payment simple to make. It's a small payment as an insurance against loss of work ect. Along the way or in 12 years I pay that house off and it was easy to do because the debt wasn't big. I used the banks money to buy my house, I paid for its use but because I was able to borrow and buy a house I have earned wealth as my house value has doubled since I bought it. You can turn some debt into profit.

Keith guns buys a million dollars worth of guns in one order. He borrows the money and gets a great deal because he spends a million at one time. He uses the banks money and turns it into profit and becomes the biggest dealer in the state. Some folks know how to turn debt into profit and banks help them do it.

Yes I know we are talking national debt and we have talked about it for years. So what's the answer this year? We add a trillion+ every year now and it looks like it will be well over 30 trillion with the next war. What are they going to do?
With debt-based interest-loaded currency the debt does not get paid off. Ever. It's not like a car, boat or a house. It's not like a personal loan. The loan cannot be paid back, not if you took every dollar the debt generated and gave it back to the banks it would not be enough. There is no way to do it because there is not enough money, even if you gathered up every dollar, quarter and nickle on the planet. Not enough.

All you can do is transfer part of it to someone else, which is essentially what they do with taxes.

The answer this year is you add to it and hope the economy grows to the point to where the added productivity hides the inflationary effect of adding more dollars into circulation. Or you can default and start using beads or shells.

Remember, the real game here is the economy. That's where the wealth is. The currency is the oil that makes it move, and the yardstick by which it is measured. An ever-shrinking one. The second thing to understand is the banksters understand this. Nobody expects anyone to pay off the debt, certainly not the bankers who certainly realize the mathematical impossibilities involved.

And if the creditors ain't worrying about it I gotta ask, why is everyone else?
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Old May 15, 2019, 13:33   #37
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With debt-based interest-loaded currency the debt does not get paid off. Ever. It's not like a car, boat or a house. It's not like a personal loan. The loan cannot be paid back, not if you took every dollar the debt generated and gave it back to the banks it would not be enough. There is no way to do it because there is not enough money, even if you gathered up every dollar, quarter and nickle on the planet. Not enough.

All you can do is transfer part of it to someone else, which is essentially what they do with taxes.

The answer this year is you add to it and hope the economy grows to the point to where the added productivity hides the inflationary effect of adding more dollars into circulation. Or you can default and start using beads or shells.

Remember, the real game here is the economy. That's where the wealth is. The currency is the oil that makes it move, and the yardstick by which it is measured. An ever-shrinking one. The second thing to understand is the banksters understand this. Nobody expects anyone to pay off the debt, certainly not the bankers who certainly realize the mathematical impossibilities involved.

And if the creditors ain't worrying about it I gotta ask, why is everyone else?
There isn't much different in our lives with 22 trillion in government debt, only differences for us is how much personal debt we take on. Trump could pay some on the debt with the tarriff he puts on other countries, if it was me all tarriff funds would go toward our debt. China alone would pay our intrest on one trillion with the tarriff Trump imposed.

Deal is the debt won't be called in because the entire world runs on the dollar.
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Old May 15, 2019, 13:36   #38
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There isn't much different in our lives with 22 trillion in government debt, only differences for us is how much personal debt we take on. Trump could pay some on the debt with the tarriff he puts on other countries, if it was me all tarriff funds would go toward our debt. China alone would pay our intrest on one trillion with the tarriff Trump imposed.

Deal is the debt won't be called in because the entire world runs on the dollar.
It won't be called in because it would be suicidal, game over for the banksters to do it. Why expose the fraud by calling for something you know to be impossible? And yes, the world does run on it.
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Old May 15, 2019, 13:43   #39
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So what will they do? It gets to a trillion in intrest on the debt and they will just print a trillion to pay it. Government is going to spend all it wants to, you could see that when they no longer made out a budget. How will that hurt us?
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Old May 15, 2019, 13:55   #40
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So what will they do? It gets to a trillion in intrest on the debt and they will just print a trillion to pay it. Government is going to spend all it wants to, you could see that when they no longer made out a budget. How will that hurt us?
Eventually it will lead to the collapse of the Empire, but that may be after we old guys are gone.

Or maybe sooner.

At some point there will probably be a loss of trust in the ability of the dollar to maintain purchasing power, i.e. serious inflation.
If complete loss of trust then the hyperinflation as previously experienced in Wiemar Germany, Zimbabwe, etc.

Or maybe we just begin to resemble Argentina, once a shining gem in our hemisphere.

I don't profess to know, therefore I hedge.

Edited to add; if you are curious at all about how it develops and what happens, you can read 'Surviving in Argentina' by Fernando(Ferfal) Aquire, a Falfiles member IIRC, or 'The Five Stages of Collapse' by Dmitri Orlov about the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Both very informative and they both have blogs online, Surviving in Argentina and Cluborlov.
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Old May 15, 2019, 14:13   #41
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Eventually it will lead to the collapse of the Empire, but that may be after we old guys are gone.

Or maybe sooner.

At some point there will probably be a loss of trust in the ability of the dollar to maintain purchasing power, i.e. serious inflation.
If complete loss of trust then the hyperinflation as previously experienced in Wiemar Germany, Zimbabwe, etc.

Or maybe we just begin to resemble Argentina, once a shining gem in our hemisphere.

I don't profess to know, therefore I hedge.
I don't know anything but I calm myself by looking at what the outcome would be by any move they make. The world runs on the dollar so what would happen if it's value goes down? Inflation has taken my $28,000 house to $265,000 in 41 years. If we have Venezuela style inflation then the economy stops. How could you pay on the debt when the country crashes?

Same thing if they make money hard to get, the economy crashes and the debt goes bigger anyway. So what's the hedge or prep for a time the country has no money? All the values on everything will go down because there won't be any money to buy it. If they use the debt to destroy the economy then the country will fall and come back as something different. What's the hedge on that?

Government crashes odds are it will come back commie if folks are starving or it goes to revolution with the death of everyone that caused the crash. My hedge is live life and enjoy it because you won't get another chance. Enjoy conversation while you can, before they stop it. There is nothing we can do to stop anything so enjoy life as it is. I get my new pooch this Saturday, another chocolate lab that 7 weeks old. Let the world fall if it's going to, me and my pooch will get by until I am done.
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Old May 15, 2019, 14:20   #42
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Beauty can Save the world?

Exit -"Do you have any suggestions as to how one might beat the system of wealth extraction that they put in place that day?"

Well the protest is easy, the solution is not. Labour precedes Capital - so withholding labour is an option. However since we have relinquished most human activity to the service industries, we've become reliant on monopolies to provide - whether food, energy or shelter.

I would be favorable to decentralization, make the country more regionally dependent - this is the big gubment argument! So we have the trend towards going off the Grid, self dependency - self responsibility! Thats really all most, can ever do.

The magpie in all of us attracts to that which is shiney and attractive - whether that be a new car, the latest cellphone, tool or a luxury boat or whatever.
Greed, envy, arrogance, gluttony, avarice are all part of it - trading a lot for a transient little - a demise of our own making!
Ultimately it's about individual responsibly for the Self, and not the reliance on others, their things and temptations presented. In part I blame the excesses of the media, for spawning inadequacies via the cult of celebrity - and all that that entails!

Tho' I will add, that if the economy is returned to the nation, as described by the constitution we could easily re-inflate - but thats why we kill those nations that do that! 1913, the fed res was ignited - 1914 WW1, then the contrivance of the Great Depression, the rise of Germany, WW2 - then globalism to create a one world gubment - all contrivances by a few. We might want equality but that should not include equity of outcome!
If I had the answers, a game plan, I would be crucified! However if you mess with the natural order, everyone pays the price.
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Old May 15, 2019, 14:30   #43
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Everything depends on your age and ability. When I was a young man with good ability I chose construction work and in particular road construction. There will always be roads to build should a man be good enough to build them. What is it they can't take from you in a crash? Can they take away your talent? If you work hard on a trade or a skill they might do away with the jobs but some jobs will always be there.

The way to make a better world is to be as good as you can be at what you like to do. Lots of jobs now so it's easier to be good. Life is better when you learn to do more, real learning is the path to a better world and there is no way to take learning from you.
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Old May 15, 2019, 14:37   #44
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When obummer crashed construction jobs it gave the big companies the ability to wipe out the little ones. Here in Oregon, Knife River and Oldcastle bought out most of the aggregate companies and the paving companies. The little companies just couldn't survive against 17 billion dollar companies when there wasn't much work. Now that the work is picking up the big companies are making tons of money. Buy low and sell high, they knew when and what to buy.
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Old May 15, 2019, 23:04   #45
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I'm too tired to read all your comments on my own thread. Sorry.

There are many thing of value in our world, like your word, or your labor, or a cord of wood. Let'$s consider only physical things right now. They come in two classes.

Things like a cord of wood, or a gallon of gas, or a panel of sheet rock have value because they are useful. But to get utility from them you must consume them.

Things like currency, or gold, or bitcoin have value because you can trade them for things of value you would like to consume. As soon as you can no longer trade these types of currencies for things you would like to consume, they become valueless.

In that sense all currencies are fiat. Benjamins, gold, iridium, are only worth what useful things you can trade them for. But wait, iridium is useful and is happily consumed. Where does it fall in the scheme of things?

In the K-T boundary bitches.

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Old May 15, 2019, 23:10   #46
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It is trivial to show mathematically how a debt with interest can be repaid even if that debt exceeds the amount of currency in circulation. I've dome this exercise here several times. Look it up.
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I intend to enjoy all 120 years of my life. I just need to get that done before I'm 65.
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Old May 16, 2019, 00:53   #47
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I'm too tired to read all your comments on my own thread. Sorry.

There are many thing of value in our world, like your word, or your labor, or a cord of wood. Let'$s consider only physical things right now. They come in two classes.

Things like a cord of wood, or a gallon of gas, or a panel of sheet rock have value because they are useful. But to get utility from them you must consume them.

Things like currency, or gold, or bitcoin have value because you can trade them for things of value you would like to consume. As soon as you can no longer trade these types of currencies for things you would like to consume, they become valueless.

In that sense all currencies are fiat. Benjamins, gold, iridium, are only worth what useful things you can trade them for. But wait, iridium is useful and is happily consumed. Where does it fall in the scheme of things?

In the K-T boundary bitches.

These are two things I remember from my one geology class,,,the third,,,, the pretty young lady professor had long shapely legs, wore short dresses,,with a cute ass too.
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Old May 16, 2019, 05:20   #48
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...

Things like currency, or gold, or bitcoin have value because you can trade them for things of value you would like to consume. As soon as you can no longer trade these types of currencies for things you would like to consume, they become valueless.

In that sense all currencies are fiat. Benjamins, gold, iridium, are only worth what useful things you can trade them for. But wait, iridium is useful and is happily consumed. Where does it fall in the scheme of things?

In the K-T boundary bitches.
Precisely. And enough of this pissing around already, bring on the freaking asteroid!
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Old May 16, 2019, 06:58   #49
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Bubba', its more likely to be an electronic discharge, or the consequences of a Maunder Minimum - perhaps both, the latter followed by the former!
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Old May 16, 2019, 11:18   #50
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Precisely. And enough of this pissing around already, bring on the freaking asteroid!
I have been hearing it's all going to crash since the 1970s. I have been hearing global warming or cooling will kill us all since the 1970s. AOC says we only have 12 years to live. Hope I am around 12 years from now to see it all.
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