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Old December 24, 2017, 09:39   #151
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The locking shoulder hole, and the hinge hole, are the start location or "zero" for all the other dimensions. At least on factory prints.

And no, there is no repair. Receiver needs to be scrapped. What are they going to do? Bore it out and solder a sleeve in the hole - doing a nice job of annealing one of the few spots needing specific heat treatment? Hinge hole, sure. Locking shoulder hole? Not on your life (literally).

And even if they could somehow (theoretically) plug and re-bore this hole correctly, the end product will be of diminished value and the customer will still not have been made whole.

I think it is important to track serial numbers, otherwise I have no doubt these same defective receivers will be "suddenly discovered" some time from now, and resold to someone else.
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Old December 24, 2017, 10:23   #152
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I think it is important to track serial numbers, otherwise I have no doubt these same defective receivers will be "suddenly discovered" some time from now, and resold to someone else.
Oh, you know it. It's almost like you've seen this game played before.

Maybe too early to start making lemonade but I'm already thinking of uses for these 'scrap' receivers. If the only problem is the locking shoulder hole it's not too difficult to come up with some ideas. .22LR, 9mm, .45ACP, even 5.56 or 7.62x39 I'd not have a problem with. Build a dedicated gun for blanks or that neat DAG plastic stuff if you have enough to make it worthwhile. In fact, most of those would even allow you to work around an out of spec magwell or whatever other fatal flaws these things have. Doesn't really help guys who are stuck wanting(and having paid for)a function .308 receiver tho.

As 'scrap' receivers I'd be interested in a dozen of them at $100 apiece. I'll throw them in the box with the ORF's, the WAC's and the Century's or use them to hold together and 'display' all my excess kits.
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Old December 24, 2017, 10:29   #153
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It's always an eye opener when a guy realizes just how expensive his budget parts ended up being. See it all the time in racing too.
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Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

I really have to wonder how many times the bretheren here need kicked in the balls before they finally get it...


.
Personally I went into these with both eyes wide open. However I do feel bad for the customer who is sending his builds on to a gunsmith,e.g., gun plumber, and who doesn't want, or perhaps does not have the ability, to do the build work himself. These issues will cost those folks a lot of extra money and DSA does not seem to give that any consideration when they continue to send out problematic receivers. For me, my time is all that I will lose on this deal as I build these as a hobby and enjoy it as a stress reliever. LOL, although sometimes there is not a lot of stress being relieved...........

Admittedly, I was hopeful that they had worked out the issues with these cast receivers. I also believed what DSA was telling us, i.e., they were actual overruns and not rejects, and then I went a leap further and "assumed" that since these were actually ordered by a Government agency DSA would really apply some QA/QC and these receivers would not be riddled with problems. Unfortunately it appears that I was wrong and it is the same old sad story. For what it is worth, as I am only one customer, this will be my last purchase of a new DSA receiver and I will be telling them that when I speak with them next week. .......




.

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Old December 24, 2017, 10:40   #154
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.
....and then I went a leap further and "assumed" that since these were actually ordered by a Government agency DSA would really apply some QA/QC and these receivers would not be riddled with problems.


They probably did apply some QC, that's how they ended up in the reject bin to be distributed to the masses as "contract over runs".

I fully encourage each and every one of these rejects be returned to DSA for a full refund. Any one who doesn't bother and wants to be rid of them I'd be interested, as the post above, for a few at $100.
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Old December 24, 2017, 10:51   #155
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Oh, you know it. It's almost like you've seen this game played before.
I'm still working on my documentation. But yeah.

I use defective CAI receivers for cutaways. But I don't have enough other bad parts to handle all the defective receivers that are available. So I don't need more. Nor do I think it is smart to have receivers floating around, where a locking shoulder could fall out during firing. The liability exposure seems pretty high to me. I know the Williams Aluma-bombs have been re-purposed to pistol caliber conversions, but he's out of business.

DSA has knowingly sold defective receivers, long after being put on notice as to the defects. But these were functional issues - they have not been dangerous. It's hard to get a gun to blow up if a magazine won't even fit.

This, on the other hand, is a dangerous defect. With the only thing holding the locking shoulder in place, being the dog leg, there is a real possibility of someone being fooled into thinking it is secure. If it falls out during firing, it could result in a catastrophic OoB KB.

If it were me, I'd chop the receivers. But then, the integrity of my name means something to me, so I'd never have sold them in the first place.
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Old December 24, 2017, 12:25   #156
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[QUOTE=4x401;4517469]Retarded.

You ever put a FAL together, or just come here to post stupid shit??[/QUOTE

No, however, along with my "stupid shit", which others who don't have a chip on their shoulder find amusing, I can wax most eloquently on a variety of topics. My life doesn't revolve around an out of spec DSA "Mexican contract overrun" receiver. Evidently you're wound a little tight around the Feast of the Nativity of our Lord, and God , and Savior, Jesus Christ in the flesh. I will go back to enjoying my lovely wife, children, grandchildren, and extended family. Perhaps, you will find someone to share your miserable opinion of me with and make youself feel especially important. I hope so. There is no further need for comment. You asked a question, and I answered it. Now go find someone to kick you in the nuts as a reminder of problematic DSA builds.~ss (AKA: stupid shit) LOL I know you smiled.
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Old December 24, 2017, 13:07   #157
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Oh, you know it. It's almost like you've seen this game played before.

Maybe too early to start making lemonade but I'm already thinking of uses for these 'scrap' receivers. If the only problem is the locking shoulder hole it's not too difficult to come up with some ideas. .22LR, 9mm, .45ACP, even 5.56 or 7.62x39 I'd not have a problem with. Build a dedicated gun for blanks or that neat DAG plastic stuff if you have enough to make it worthwhile. In fact, most of those would even allow you to work around an out of spec magwell or whatever other fatal flaws these things have. Doesn't really help guys who are stuck wanting(and having paid for)a function .308 receiver tho.

As 'scrap' receivers I'd be interested in a dozen of them at $100 apiece. I'll throw them in the box with the ORF's, the WAC's and the Century's or use them to hold together and 'display' all my excess kits.
Exactly what I was thinking. I need one for a .22 build. Anybody want to unload theirs?
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Old December 24, 2017, 13:38   #158
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I'm building off of one of these receivers, before I throw a barrel on it is there any way I can check if the locking shoulder hole on the left side of the receiver is in spec without using a locking shoulder. All I have is the pin guages at this time. I really don't want to bother barreling it if it's out of spec.
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Old December 24, 2017, 14:07   #159
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If the LS drifts in from the right and the oversize hole is on the left, tell me how a custom LS is going to go in?
The LS's fit, relatively, on the right. Three or four more thou isn't going to make it through. I'd figure someone with your proposed back ground would know this.
These can be repaired, one just needs the skills and tools.
It goes without saying that the hole would have to be trued up first, then measured, then a custom locking shoulder made.
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Old December 24, 2017, 14:12   #160
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I'm building off of one of these receivers, before I throw a barrel on it is there any way I can check if the locking shoulder hole on the left side of the receiver is in spec without using a locking shoulder. All I have is the pin guages at this time. I really don't want to bother barreling it if it's out of spec.
In my experience this year, with a half dozen defective DSA's, I'd say use a caliper if you have one. You can compare the difference between the holes, they should be the same inner dimension on both sides.
Forgot to add, see if a NOS dust cover will slide fully into place without binding midway, then check to see if your bolt carrier will slide fully closed without binding, then see if the receiver will fully lock closed to your trigger housing without any issues. I think I covered most issues, your experience may differ from all of mine.
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Old December 24, 2017, 14:14   #161
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It goes without saying that the hole would have to be trued up first, then measured, then a custom locking shoulder made.
I wonder how far out of spec the hole is and how far over sized the LS can be and be safe?
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Old December 24, 2017, 14:24   #162
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It goes without saying that the hole would have to be trued up first, then measured, then a custom locking shoulder made.
Or you can accept it as a defective piece of crap and be done with it, why throw more money at a out of spec receiver? Oh wait you could get one of your $25.00 reamer and hack away!
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Old December 24, 2017, 14:29   #163
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FWIW. Reading this thread had me very concerned about the two overrun type 1, NCH, DSA Mexican receivers, DSA32173 and DSA32178, I recently purchased. I performed the following test to see if the receivers are defective.

Timing - timed early, 10 o'clock. Works perfect with overtimed barrels I have
Threads - passed
Mag fit - locked a little tight with moses, surplus mags and converted L1A1 mags
Rails - passed
Lockup with lower - tested with STG, IMBEL, and DSA lower; passed
Locking shoulder dogleg - passed
Locking shoulder through left side of receiver - passed. I tried six different locking shoulders and all six only entered the hole about 1/8 of an inch in both receivers

Luck of the draw. With all the problems everybody else is having, I consider myself very lucky.
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Old December 24, 2017, 14:33   #164
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I wonder how far out of spec the hole is and how far over sized the LS can be and be safe?
If the hole is the same diameter on both sides, and square to the centerline of the barrel axis, it shouldn't make much of a difference, as long as it doesn't interfere with the bolt and carrier, and the holes aren't too large to affect the integrity of the receiver and ejector block.
The locking shoulder needs to be properly aligned to ensure even load bearing between the bolt and locking shoulder. If the LS is off center, then the bolt will not have even load bearing, and the locking shoulder could break, or be forced to walk out of the receiver during the firing cycle. Which in turn will cause a major problem for the poor fugk that is firing his FAL.
Anyone else wonder how good Dave's lawyers are?
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Old December 24, 2017, 14:40   #165
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Or you can accept it as a defective piece of crap and be done with it, why throw more money at a out of spec receiver? Oh wait you could get one of your $25.00 reamer and hack away!
Was soeaking hypothetically. No i would not throw away my time on one of those receivers. How could you sell the gun Later on?
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Old December 24, 2017, 15:00   #166
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In my experience this year, with a half dozen defective DSA's, I'd say use a caliper if you have one. You can compare the difference between the holes, they should be the same inner dimension on both sides.
Forgot to add, see if a NOS dust cover will slide fully into place without binding midway, then check to see if your bolt carrier will slide fully closed without binding, then see if the receiver will fully lock closed to your trigger housing without any issues. I think I covered most issues, your experience may differ from all of mine.
All of that checks out. Only thing I can see is a tight magwell and the mag catch screw not being completely flush with the receiver. I'll find a way to address that.

I have serial 32164. Hopefully this build won't give me any further problems.

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Old December 24, 2017, 15:04   #167
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All of that checks out. Only thing I can see is a tight magwell and the mag catch screw not being completely flush with the receiver.
Then you got lucky. Hope it runs stellar when it's done.
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Old December 24, 2017, 15:29   #168
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All of that checks out. Only thing I can see is a tight magwell and the mag catch screw not being completely flush with the receiver. I'll find a way to address that.

I have serial 32164. Hopefully this build won't give me any further problems.
I hope they work great for you too. But see my posts #45 and #136 in this thread....

You should check that left side of the locking shoulder hole.

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Old December 24, 2017, 16:03   #169
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I hope they work great for you too. But see my posts #45 and #136 in this thread....


.
I saw, I'm hoping for the best but expecting the worst. I mean really what do you do if it's out of spec, send it back and they exchange it for another over run that may also be out of spec or they send it back "repaired". Knew I should have ponied up for the imbel instead of getting so hooked up on the dsa warranty. Live and learn.
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Old December 24, 2017, 17:03   #170
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Old December 24, 2017, 19:49   #171
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31973 locking shoulder hole left and right are good
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Old December 24, 2017, 19:52   #172
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Dunno'

I do tend to side with much of anything Mark states on building. If he notes something is all Fubar he isn't one who makes shit up.

Now is dsa sending out 2nds ?
Utter speculation.
Seems somehow dsa is making this junk somehow work on exports

dunno how it's being done, maybe dsa is using oversize LS
I don't have a damn clue but they need to stand up, explain this shit and offer their over size LS if that's going on.

Dog piling like sissy bitches won't fix any of these problems

I am pretty sure FAL reciever manufacturers just hate the Plumber
Mark's heart is in the right place but his people skills are well, worse than my own.
He needs to be hired up as a consultant by certain firms, shit the asshole could mostly retire
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Old December 25, 2017, 02:26   #173
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Retarded.

You ever put a FAL together, or just come here to post stupid shit??[/QUOTE

No, however, along with my "stupid shit", which others who don't have a chip on their shoulder find amusing, I can wax most eloquently on a variety of topics. My life doesn't revolve around an out of spec DSA "Mexican contract overrun" receiver. Evidently you're wound a little tight around the Feast of the Nativity of our Lord, and God , and Savior, Jesus Christ in the flesh. I will go back to enjoying my lovely wife, children, grandchildren, and extended family. Perhaps, you will find someone to share your miserable opinion of me with and make youself feel especially important. I hope so. There is no further need for comment. You asked a question, and I answered it. Now go find someone to kick you in the nuts as a reminder of problematic DSA builds.~ss (AKA: stupid shit) LOL I know you smiled.
Blah, blah, blah...

If you consider the drivel your contiually posting as "Waxing eloquently", your literary teacher needs that clowns attention... Stat.
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Old December 25, 2017, 10:49   #174
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I'm building off of one of these receivers, before I throw a barrel on it is there any way I can check if the locking shoulder hole on the left side of the receiver is in spec without using a locking shoulder. All I have is the pin guages at this time. I really don't want to bother barreling it if it's out of spec.
not really. Problem is the tolerance of the hole, the tolerance of the locking shoulder, and the tolerance of the pin gauges. You're probably looking at ZZ gauges. Class ZZ has an allowed deviation of .0002″, geometry of .0001″, finish 10 micro-inch Ra. To move up to Z, your price will jump dramatically. Class Z has an allowed deviation of .0001″, geometry of .00005″, finish 8 micro-inch Ra.

Your ZZ are going to be + or -. A + will have the deviation over the size. The - will be a max of the size, deviating less than. Locking shoulder tolerance is .0009. The hole tolerance is 0.0014. But maybe a ZZ .297"+ as a NOGO, will work for a .2969" max hole. But a ZZ- could fit because the gauge is -.0002"

I do not know the difference in pressure on the interference fit between FN spec induction hardening and DSA's "whole receiver" heat treat.

But as in my example, when I have a brand new, un-issued OS 1,2 and 3 all enter the whole to almost full depth with hand pressure only, it's very bad.
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Old December 25, 2017, 11:18   #175
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not really. Problem is the tolerance of the hole, the tolerance of the locking shoulder, and the tolerance of the pin gauges. You're probably looking at ZZ gauges. Class ZZ has an allowed deviation of .0002″, geometry of .0001″, finish 10 micro-inch Ra. To move up to Z, your price will jump dramatically. Class Z has an allowed deviation of .0001″, geometry of .00005″, finish 8 micro-inch Ra.

Your ZZ are going to be + or -. A + will have the deviation over the size. The - will be a max of the size, deviating less than. Locking shoulder tolerance is .0009. The hole tolerance is 0.0014. But maybe a ZZ .297"+ as a NOGO, will work for a .2969" max hole. But a ZZ- could fit because the gauge is -.0002"

I do not know the difference in pressure on the interference fit between FN spec induction hardening and DSA's "whole receiver" heat treat.

But as in my example, when I have a brand new, un-issued OS 1,2 and 3 all enter the whole to almost full depth with hand pressure only, it's very bad.
Mark, what are the increment changes between OS 1,2, and 3? And from standard to OS1?
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Old December 25, 2017, 12:07   #176
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[QUOTE=4x401;4517878]
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Blah, blah, blah...

If you consider the drivel your contiually posting as "Waxing eloquently", your literary teacher needs that clowns attention... Stat.
Boom in the crotch, boom in the crotch, boom in the crotch, boom in the crotch, boom in the crotch...~ss
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Old December 26, 2017, 09:33   #177
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Mark, what are the increment changes between OS 1,2, and 3? And from standard to OS1?
Appx .0008" increments. Meaning if a OS 3 drops in, the hole is around .0030" oversize.



Aussie
Standard .2978-.0008
OS-1 .2987-.0008
UK
Standard .2970-.2978
OS-1 (Y) .2998-.2990

Can't find my FAL list right now, but it's similar.
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Old December 26, 2017, 09:56   #178
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Appx .0008" increments. Meaning if a OS 3 drops in, the hole is around .0030" oversize.



Aussie
Standard .2978-.0008
OS-1 .2987-.0008
UK
Standard .2970-.2978
OS-1 (Y) .2998-.2990

Can't find my FAL list right now, but it's similar.
Excellent, Mark. Thank you.
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Old December 26, 2017, 13:20   #179
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There is no metric thread on any FAL other than the Izzy barrel chamber side (I suspect the Indian grip plate screw is M4 and not #8, but I'm not sure).

But sometimes when an inch dimension seems a little arbitrary, converting it to metric reveals a dimension that makes more sense. The 0.0008" increments translate to 0.02mm, which is a standard metric step for pins needing an oversize interference fit - AK for example. Also, HK rollers are in .02mm steps.
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Old December 27, 2017, 16:58   #180
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DSA 32238

Add me to the defective locking shoulder hole crowd. Inspected before transfer. Pushed LS in from opposing side with finger pressure--got a nice 7 second video showing off my awesome finger strength. Heading back as soon as DSA issues RMA. Boo.....

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Old December 27, 2017, 17:14   #181
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DSA 32182

It was in for a suspected LS problem, but it turned out to be the inside of the bolt carrier where the top rear of the bolt rises. It was roughly machined. 2 different carriers worked fine with same bolt (yes, before I blame the receiver, I check multiples of the part for fit). Result was a false reading requiring sub-.250 shoulder. Now is fine with a .254" (.256 = tight close on .308 GO). Intersting because it was a matched IMBEL B&BC

75% of magazines would not fit, and those that did would only click when forced. Definite step in inside top edges of mag well - opened up with 1/2" ball endmill.

Barrel was already timed, but mag catch axle and threads were good and I'll check lockup when it comes out of the cleaning tank - was still caked in grease.
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Old December 28, 2017, 09:45   #182
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Magazines that don't latch and B.O.B.

From personal experience:
Some ejector blocks are installed to high in a receiver which, in turn, makes the latch too high to complete magazine lockup with "some" magazines. Magazines also have manufacturing tolerances +-.
"B.O.B."
I have had receivers where the left bolt carrier rail is just a tad too wide.
During diagnosis it was noted that when the magazine was inserted with the first round to be chambered on the charging handle side of the receiver, the bolt carrier rail makes contact with the bullet case pushing it downward into the magazine. The magazine lip is no longer in contact with the case. The bolt, going forward, does not make sufficient contact to push it. For me, the remedy to this was to file-back the width of the carrier rail only about .010" until I was visually able to confirm that contact of the bullet case was only in the magazine lip and not the receiver itself. There was so little material to be removed, but it made the difference for reliable chambering in my situation.
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Old December 28, 2017, 11:25   #183
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This is all too bad- I just picked up an "S.D.N. Mexico D.F." LE6920 and would love to have had an FAL to go with it.

I guess there is probably a reason DSA doesn't just build these into "el Viajero" models and sell them with a cool story like Colt did.

(DSA- I might still be down if you do this.)

Normally I'd be down for same config too, but I am a big time hater of short-gas FALs. A 16" or 18" normal Para with the Mexico marks would sell great if it runs, I think...
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Old December 29, 2017, 06:33   #184
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These receivers all have LS issues and are within ~40 units of one another.. I am very interested to learn if any others fall within or near this range.

32238 mp

32243 gunplumber

32202 G3isMe

.
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Old December 29, 2017, 09:17   #185
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Originally Posted by G3isMe View Post
These receivers all have LS issues and are within ~40 units of one another.. I am very interested to learn if any others fall within or near this range.

32238 mp

32243 gunplumber

32202 G3isMe

.
I have one in my possession that falls in that range...will hopefully get to measure LS hole in the morning.
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Old December 29, 2017, 09:30   #186
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Originally Posted by G3isMe View Post
These receivers all have LS issues and are within ~40 units of one another.. I am very interested to learn if any others fall within or near this range.

32238 mp

32243 gunplumber

32202 G3isMe

.
I have the following two receivers but do not have LS issues, however, both receivers undertimed to about 10 o'clock

32173 pl521
32178 pl521
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Old December 29, 2017, 11:53   #187
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I have the following two receivers but do not have LS issues, however, both receivers undertimed to about 10 o'clock

32173 pl521
32178 pl521
Undertimed by bottoming out on the front of the receiver rails or by the barrel shoulder meeting the front of the receiver. The latter is obviously preferable.
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Old December 29, 2017, 12:09   #188
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Undertimed by bottoming out on the front of the receiver rails or by the barrel shoulder meeting the front of the receiver. The latter is obviously preferable.
Barrel shoulder meeting front of receiver early.
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Old December 29, 2017, 16:37   #189
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Hello Fal Files Members

It has been brought to our attention that there are some concerns over the Locking shoulder hole DIMENSION we would like to share this information with you. Attached is the FN blueprint for this area, our Steyr print is the same.

The dimension for the Locking Shoulder hole in Inches is .2961 +/- .0006 So the blueprint range is .2955 to .2967 Max. We will then finish ream this hole to .2960 This dimension was selected due to movement or shrinkage during heat treatment. We use a precision ground reamer of .2960 due to this. This reamer costs $72 not $300.00.





We are an ISO 9001:2015 certified company who just passed our recertification again this year. We use certified inspection grade precision steel pin gauges to measure these holes.

Locking shoulders are designed to be a press fit. This is why you use the proper tools, punches or press to install them. On a precision machined rifle such as a FAL, it would be foolish to think that every part, made by every manufacturer and made over a period of over 60 years will all fit together perfectly. If you are using inch pattern shoulders new or used, or shoulders made from any other subcontractor from even a Formerly licensed facility expect a varied tolerance range.

We have manufactured this part for many years and supplied 10s of thousands of these parts as stripped receivers and to build complete rifles. We have supplied not only the US market with the best FAL/L1A1 receivers and rifles but also we have sold our complete rifles to military and police agencies around the world including the US DOD. DSA is the world authority on FAL RECIEVERS and rifles known for the best quality FAL parts and complete rifles.
We have successfully rebuilt and modernized FN rifles as old as 1950’s for foreign governments right up to the last production Argentine rifles.

We have manufactured, purchased, handled and seen over 100,000 FAL rifles including the 55,000 Austrian STG58’s we purchased and had imported into the US. If we did not save these from destruction, there wouldn’t be 1 STG58 part or rifle imported in the US. So it’s safe to say we have handled and actually manufactured more FAL rifles than anyone in the US or most Countries, besides an actual licensed or unlicensed manufacturer.

We caution if anyone is placing sandpaper on a drill or makes the hole oversized themselves, you may void your warranty. We don’t expect an average person to have the proper pin gauges in their pocket, that’s why we are here. We completely stand behind everything we make as we always have. Currently there is no one on this site that is authorized by us (the manufacturer) to work on our products. If anyone is having an issue with anything including barreling and head spacing, we perform these tasks on a daily basis for a nominal fee. We do it the correct way with proper fixtures, gauges and tools. In case some on here are new and are not aware, in the 1990’s we purchased all of the tooling and blueprints Steyr used to make the FAL rifle. We have utilized much of this tooling in production as well as made new modern tooling.

Should anyone on this forum have any issue or concern about a receiver that they have purchased from us all they need do is reach out to our customer service department at 847-277-7258 for us make arrangements for the receiver to come back for an inspection and based on that inspection the correct course of action.

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Old December 29, 2017, 17:08   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSA_REP View Post
...

Locking shoulders are designed to be a press fit. This is why you use the proper tools, punches or press to install them. On a precision machined rifle such as a FAL, it would be foolish to think that every part, made by every manufacturer and made over a period of over 60 years will all fit together perfectly...

.
Jesus Christ this is the whole f****** point of this thread at this stage. This is why we are concerned when you can shove a locking shoulder into one of your receivers with your thumb.....Did you even read these posts? Give me a freaking break.

edited for: I am perplexed that DSA has authorized you to be their representative on this forum. Their reputation was tarnished with a lot of builders here and for good reason. No offense DSA_REP, but you don't seem to be well suited for a role in damage control nor improving customer relations. Something doesn't seem right here and I am guessing loose cannon. For what it is worth, and while I realize that I am only one customer, your post today solidified my earlier thoughts and has cost DSA a loss of ~ $2,800 in sales of FAL receivers today and probably a similar amount next week. I was waffling back and forth between DSA and Coonan and I must say your post #191 made the decision quite easy. I will be sure to share this with DSA management when I call to request a return and refund for receiver DSA32022. There is a cost for rudeness and ineptitude. Thank you Sir.




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Old December 29, 2017, 17:30   #191
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Running on the high side of the tolerance for the LS dimension is .2969. That's cutting it close. I'm measuring NOS LS diameter shafts with OD mics and getting pretty damn close to that max diameter

I have 8 DSA receiver builds. Nothing but DS prefixes. These guys here have built far more than me. Something is wrong.
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Old December 29, 2017, 17:49   #192
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Originally Posted by DSA_REP View Post
It has been brought to our attention that there are some concerns over the Locking shoulder hole DIMENSION
They finally came did they?

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Old December 29, 2017, 17:54   #193
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"Locking shoulders are designed to be a press fit. This is why you use the proper tools, punches or press to install them. On a precision machined rifle such as a FAL, it would be foolish to think that every part, made by every manufacturer and made over a period of over 60 years will all fit together perfectly. If you are using inch pattern shoulders new or used, or shoulders made from any other subcontractor from even a Formerly licensed facility expect a varied tolerance range. "

And yet, I can take parts from any number of countries who manufactured the FAL, and swap them about to build a Franken FAL that'll go together and run right off the bat, so long as I use a receiver that is actually in spec. I know, I've done it so many times I've lost count. The biggest reason I've stopped buying kits is, there isn't one single U.S. manufacturer today, that makes a 100% truly in spec. receiver that can be built on without some issue.
I can spend near six bills on a Imbel, and have my build slinging lead in less than a couple hours. Not been my experience with DSA or Coonan for the past couple years.
Nice slick advert in your above reply though.
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Old December 29, 2017, 19:11   #194
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Not to be that guy, but if anyone has one that's not dangerously out of spec and wants to make $100 on top of what they paid from DSA, hit me up.

Oh, and on issues of builds, I side with Gunplumber 100 times out of 100. He's built a ton of stuff for me and it all works well.
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Old December 29, 2017, 19:25   #195
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We still don't know which of the different people using the DSA_REP account has posted (is that any different than one person having multiple accounts, in violation of Falfiles rules?). Why are they so afraid of putting their name on it? Maybe it's Chicago thing. All bluster.

And yes, sweetie, I have those prints too. Did you think I pulled the numbers out of my ass?

So with all your fancy equipment and resources, why do you still dump your defective shit on the US civilian market? Oh yeah, 'it's The Chicago Way.



Quote:
We completely stand behind everything we make as we always have.
Yet I have at least three guns in the shop right now, that have already been back to DSA for warranty work (one of them twice), and still have the same major defects that they had when you first sold them.
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Old December 30, 2017, 02:34   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSA_REP View Post
Hello Fal Files Members

It has been brought to our attention that there are some concerns over the Locking shoulder hole DIMENSION we would like to share this information with you. Attached is the FN blueprint for this area, our Steyr print is the same.

The dimension for the Locking Shoulder hole in Inches is .2961 +/- .0006 So the blueprint range is .2955 to .2967 Max. We will then finish ream this hole to .2960 This dimension was selected due to movement or shrinkage during heat treatment. We use a precision ground reamer of .2960 due to this. This reamer costs $72 not $300.00.





We are an ISO 9001:2015 certified company who just passed our recertification again this year. We use certified inspection grade precision steel pin gauges to measure these holes.

Locking shoulders are designed to be a press fit. This is why you use the proper tools, punches or press to install them. On a precision machined rifle such as a FAL, it would be foolish to think that every part, made by every manufacturer and made over a period of over 60 years will all fit together perfectly. If you are using inch pattern shoulders new or used, or shoulders made from any other subcontractor from even a Formerly licensed facility expect a varied tolerance range.

We have manufactured this part for many years and supplied 10s of thousands of these parts as stripped receivers and to build complete rifles. We have supplied not only the US market with the best FAL/L1A1 receivers and rifles but also we have sold our complete rifles to military and police agencies around the world including the US DOD. DSA is the world authority on FAL RECIEVERS and rifles known for the best quality FAL parts and complete rifles.
We have successfully rebuilt and modernized FN rifles as old as 1950’s for foreign governments right up to the last production Argentine rifles.

We have manufactured, purchased, handled and seen over 100,000 FAL rifles including the 55,000 Austrian STG58’s we purchased and had imported into the US. If we did not save these from destruction, there wouldn’t be 1 STG58 part or rifle imported in the US. So it’s safe to say we have handled and actually manufactured more FAL rifles than anyone in the US or most Countries, besides an actual licensed or unlicensed manufacturer.

We caution if anyone is placing sandpaper on a drill or makes the hole oversized themselves, you may void your warranty. We don’t expect an average person to have the proper pin gauges in their pocket, that’s why we are here. We completely stand behind everything we make as we always have. Currently there is no one on this site that is authorized by us (the manufacturer) to work on our products. If anyone is having an issue with anything including barreling and head spacing, we perform these tasks on a daily basis for a nominal fee. We do it the correct way with proper fixtures, gauges and tools. In case some on here are new and are not aware, in the 1990’s we purchased all of the tooling and blueprints Steyr used to make the FAL rifle. We have utilized much of this tooling in production as well as made new modern tooling.

Should anyone on this forum have any issue or concern about a receiver that they have purchased from us all they need do is reach out to our customer service department at 847-277-7258 for us make arrangements for the receiver to come back for an inspection and based on that inspection the correct course of action.
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Old December 30, 2017, 03:49   #197
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Christ this makes me so happy that I have a couple of hopefully LMT made type 1's and type 2's, in the spares bin, plus a couple Imbels as well. At least they are for certain forged and not cast.... the DS prefix seems to be usually believed to be LMT made at least, but sounds like there is some question...my only concern is if they take a smaller than normal LS, which happened when DSA started doing them in house, but I think I built one already and all was A-OK. So thinking they are the last of the LMT's....DS37xxx serial numbers are my highest ones. Dont think I have ever had DSA prefix...

Must resist all temptation to sell them at good profit, since they are not replaceable....

Hell of a way to run a company. Should have just let LMT do the receivers. Initially I thought about buying a couple of the Mexican receivers, but figured I was already set...now I am happy to have dodged that bullet as I am no machinist.

That being said- I had to have Def-tec/ Safariland yell at LMT after they assembled a batch of (cast alum.) 40mm receivers and they used some hand trimmed down screws in an area so that half the time it interfered with the hammer, which caused light primer strikes. So LMT isnt perfect either....but their FAL receivers never seemed to be problematic....

Sad to see all the current US manufactured receivers slowly converging together towards a lower quality spec. The difference between a Century and DSA, or Century and Coonan, has never been smaller apparently. The fact that older LMT's go for high dollar shows there is still some demand for trouble free receivers, and some people at least will pay extra for quality.
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Old December 30, 2017, 06:14   #198
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DSA_REP, in this post I will not take sides. Instead I will pretend this is a demonstration of a geometry theorem like I used to have to do in high school. So,

Hypothesis:

1. Hole in receiver is <= 0.2967" in diameter per FN specs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DSA_REP View Post
The dimension for the Locking Shoulder hole in Inches is .2961 +/- .0006 So the blueprint range is .2955 to .2967 Max. We will then finish ream this hole to .2960 This dimension was selected due to movement or shrinkage during heat treatment. We use a precision ground reamer of .2960 due to this. This reamer costs $72 not $300.00.
2. Locking shoulders' diameter is >= 0.2970" in diameter
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Aussie
Standard .2978-.0008
OS-1 .2987-.0008
UK
Standard .2970-.2978
OS-1 (Y) .2998-.2990
Thesis: If the DSA receiver locking shoulder hole is built to FN specs, placing the locking shoulder in the receiver hole is an interference fit no matter the size of the locking shoulder.

Demonstration:
The following receivers:
  1. 32238 mp
  2. 32243 gunplumber
  3. 32202 G3isMe

have locking shoulder holes whose diameter are at least >= 0.2970" in diameter (gunplumber reported his to be >= .2995"). Therefore the thesis demonstration failed.

Do you agree with these conclusions? I am not asking for an explanation or speculation from either side; we are just sticking to the theorem here.

I have a set of sizing pins but unfortunately the largest one is 0.2500" +-0.0002. Otherwise I would lend it out so we could find the exact size.
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Old December 30, 2017, 09:30   #199
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Originally Posted by DSA_REP View Post
We are an ISO 9001:2015 certified company who just passed our recertification again this year. We use certified inspection grade precision steel pin gauges to measure these holes.
This is very commendable, but no process is perfect. Here you have the advantage (or disadvantage, depending on how you look at it) of an enthusiast community looking over your shoulder.

There will always be elitist huff, i.e. "why aren't you using diamond, it's harder but only charge $0.50 more??" It is easy to filter through that noise, most times it it best to ignore.

BUT then there are legitimate quality control issues. Pointing out either human error or machine errors that are best caught early and corrected. Here is a major advantage of a decent sized community using their collective intelligence and dedicating their time (for FREE) to help you develop a better product. That is priceless. Often acknowledgement is all that is required.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DSA_REP View Post
The dimension for the Locking Shoulder hole in Inches is .2961 +/- .0006 So the blueprint range is .2955 to .2967 Max. We will then finish ream this hole to .2960 This dimension was selected due to movement or shrinkage during heat treatment. We use a precision ground reamer of .2960 due to this.

[]

Locking shoulders are designed to be a press fit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gunplumber View Post
Appx .0008" increments. Meaning if a OS 3 drops in, the hole is around .0030" oversize.
As raubvogel summarized, mathematically there is an issue. As Mark and other posted, that issue is a significant operational issue. Remember, defective parts are not immune.

For when a part is >= .0030" oversized when the blueprints you posted state a tolerance of +/- .0006, that is a significant issue. It seems it would be better to investigate, identify and contain before the issue gets worse.
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Old December 30, 2017, 10:15   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSA_REP View Post
We are an ISO 9001:2015 certified company who just passed our recertification again this year. We use certified inspection grade precision steel pin gauges to measure these holes.
DSA REP - ISO 9001:2015 ISO 9001 helps organizations ensure their customers consistently receive high quality products and services, which in turn brings many benefits, including satisfied customers. It also provides organizations processes to measure, analyze, and improve QMS through activities like quality control, internal audits, corrective and preventive action.

DS Arms has an opportunity to prove it is an ISO 9001:2015 certified company by addressing issues with it's FAL receivers and to put in place necessary quality contols, internal audits, corrective and preventive action to ensure it's products and services meet customer expectations.

Recommend taking the time and measure locking shoulder hole on remaining Mexican marked overrun receiver and report back your findings. There are enough unsatisfied customers with issues and complaint on this thread to raise a red flag.

Recommend seizing sale of overrun Mexican marked receivers to stop the bleeding and taking the time to measure locking shoulder hole on all remaining receivers. We'd be interested in your findings.

The ball is in your court. How you handle current situation may very well affect your future ISO 9001:2015 certification for better or for worst.
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