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Old January 19, 2008, 23:51   #51
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Cold is a rather good local anesthetic. And probably safer than most (unless you get frostbite). You can buy those crack open vial cold packs that will cool down a small area for a stitch or two.
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Old February 04, 2008, 01:44   #52
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Ansthesia

Native Americans often used Green Willow bark for mild pain control (head aches, mild tooth ach ect ) it contains a close cousin of asprin.
Put a small piece between cheek and gum and suck on it for 20-30 min.
don't use on patients with bleeding disorders or hepatic dysfunction. Use cautiously in situations where the patient may be in combat with in 36 hours after administration as NSAIDS will prolong bleeding time.
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Old February 04, 2008, 01:50   #53
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More thoughts on Anesthesia

In some climates ice will make a servicable local anesthetic. Pack the area until the skin is numb. clean and prep the best you can and go to work.
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Old March 25, 2008, 21:45   #54
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Don't ask me how I know this. A "friend" told me that you can buy "delay gel" at any drug store or in some adult catalogs. It's topical 2% lidocaine used to desensitize the male organ to prevent premature ejaculation.

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Old August 31, 2008, 02:21   #55
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I went to the ER for a thumb I cut open. It was a real gusher, would spurt an arc of blood each time my heart would beat that was about 3ft tall. I digress, the er doc had some kinda capsule that was soft plastic with some glass or hard plastic capsules inside of it. He crushed the inner plastic vials which I guess mixed up the glue like a 2 part epoxy, then he just squeezed the mixture out into the cut. He waited a bit and taped the whole mess up, then splinted it for me.

I didn't feel any pain from the patch job. I think this maybe the way to go instead of sutures. Does anyone know the name of this glue? Is it available to us non Dr. types?


Edit: I think the stuff was called Dermabond

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Old November 12, 2008, 22:33   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by miles1111
"eliminating or reducing pain during procedures such as suturing"

The above is what I am trying to achieve. I have built up a good medical kit, but its the "local anesthetic" for the above proceedures that I am trying to obtain.
This is only for use when no hospitals are available.
I am thinking that maybe some strong "drink" is safer than guessing. I had hoped for some kind of externally applied ..maybe sprayed..magic pain block.....
First post!

Cabelas has a "stapling kit" that I saw today in their "Survival" section. $24.95 with 15 fine staples to close up a wound. Think Id rather staple than suture...
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Old December 09, 2008, 03:03   #57
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Years ago when I had my wisdom teeth out the nurse hit my arm with some kind of freeze spray so I wouldn't feel the IV going in (worked great). Does anyone know what that was? I'm buying the kit from staple kit from Cabelas, so I'd love to throw that in my bag with it.
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Old December 20, 2008, 22:13   #58
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On that subject of suturing, I did a lot of stitching up people when I was a corpsman in the Navy. That was almost 40 yrs ago so I guess I'm a little out of practice and I'm sure the protocol and equipment has changed a bit. I wish I could get some (inexpensive) training to get up to date. Some lacerations just don't justify a zillion dollar ER bill. Of course, some do. The important thing is knowing the difference. Oh, btw SIG, ice does work pretty well for a temp topical.
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sig220
I have sutured a cut before, took three stiches. The reason I sutured it was that it was pretty deep. My topical anesthetic was ice. Might not be available in a SHTF scenerio, but I had it and made it work.

Now, why did I suture instead of go to ER or armed1?? I wanted the experience os stiching up a real wound, and I was the only volunteer!!

I had the site checked later by an ER Doc I knew, he suggested I add another overhand knot to my routine and called it a pretty damn good job! It healed great, and the Doc donated some extra suture kits to my stash!!

I could tell you some storys of very a lightly trained "Doc" having to perform emergency procedures in some bad conditions during the Bosnian war, but we will save them for another time.
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Old December 20, 2008, 22:18   #59
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Where does Cabelas have a stapling kit?
It's probably not very sterile, or may be it is, but sure is better than nothing out in the field or in a shtf situation.

Quote:
Originally posted by rgramjet


First post!

Cabelas has a "stapling kit" that I saw today in their "Survival" section. $24.95 with 15 fine staples to close up a wound. Think Id rather staple than suture...
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Old December 20, 2008, 23:15   #60
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I saw this link below while browsing the web after reading the post from piperpilot1 (above). There is some interesting information there about pure, well almost pure, lidocaine hcl powder. Can this be used for a topical anesthetic? How much would it have to be diluted and with water or what?
This would be to make a temp anesthetic to deaden an area for sutures or some other procedure when medical help is not available.

Lidocaine powder, Lidocaine HCl, 99.9% Pure Lidocaine powder
Lidocaine powder or any other products furnished by LidoKing are not to be used ... You must be at least 21 years of age to purchase Lidocaine HCl powder. ...
www.lidocainepowder.com/index.html

I also saw it here, they also sell suture kits and staple kits.

http://www.shop.midcoastal-environmental.com/main.sc

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Old December 21, 2008, 16:39   #61
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spatin,

that second link on your last post looks like one of the best suppliers for medical survival gear that i have seen in a while.

nice link.
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Old December 21, 2008, 17:23   #62
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Well the thanks goes to piperpilot1, who posted above in this thread and provided that link. It is a nice link and I plan to order some stuff from them.
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Old December 25, 2008, 19:11   #63
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Here is the link to the Cabela's body staple kit

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/te...set=ISO-8859-1
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Old December 27, 2008, 01:41   #64
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So does anyone have an answer for me - see my post in #60 above

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Old December 27, 2008, 10:38   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by spatin
So does anyone have an answer for me - see my post in #60 above

Sidney
Da-yum Sidney, you're kinda old to be having PE problems aint ya?

http://100gramslidocainepowder.blogspot.com/
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Old December 27, 2008, 10:49   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by W.E.G.


Da-yum Sidney, you're kinda old to be having PE problems aint ya?

http://100gramslidocainepowder.blogspot.com/
Too young for PE problems WEG.

Interesting blogspot, but I am looking for some information on what to do with the lidocaine powder for various uses. For instance, if we were out in the boonies and no medical care available for days, and someone needed stitching, what to do with the lidocaine powder to use as an anesthetic? I assume mix with sterile water if that's available, but how much?

Sidney
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Old January 09, 2009, 03:17   #67
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Start with a tiny pinch sprinkled directly into the smaller wound and work your way to "numb" with as many pinches as it takes, wait a few minutes between sprinkles.
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Old February 13, 2009, 00:45   #68
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remember, if you are using a numbing agent with your fingers that you do not want to try stitching if your finger tips are numb. be sure to consider rubber gloves when mixing these types of materials.

spat... you asked what to mix it with.
try something like this...
http://www.shop.midcoastal-environme...1&productId=52
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Old April 05, 2009, 21:26   #69
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that link died but was very useful. anyone know of another link?
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Old April 06, 2009, 00:49   #70
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The link does not work.

Maybe a problem with the link description?

Sidney


Quote:
Originally posted by lowr8
remember, if you are using a numbing agent with your fingers that you do not want to try stitching if your finger tips are numb. be sure to consider rubber gloves when mixing these types of materials.

spat... you asked what to mix it with.
try something like this...
http://www.shop.midcoastal-environme...1&productId=52
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Old May 02, 2009, 16:33   #71
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Quote:
Originally posted by lowr8
that link died but was very useful. anyone know of another link?
big +1.
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Old May 26, 2009, 21:29   #72
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Super glue...........and butterflys........
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Old June 14, 2009, 23:07   #73
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I hope you all realize I am saying this "tounge in cheek" but I dont think I have ever see so many squimish men on one message board.

You have to understand, the original question is serious, and help may not be available.
I have horses, and if any of you guys do, too, you know the best ones always get hurt. Pay $50 for one, nothing ever happens. Pay $5000 for one, the next day its guts will be one the ground when you get home.

I have a great relationship with my vet, and have bought Lidocaine from him. His only comment was not to compete with him, i.e.; treat horses other than my own.

I injured my knee two years ago, and had to have it drained, as it swelled to twice its size. The Dr. gave me a local. then stuck a LARGE needle into the knee, and sucked the fluid off with it.
Since that time, I have drained it many times with no help, no local.

I believe, in more serious cases I would use the Lidocaine.
I could sitch myself, if the wound was where I could use my right hand.
If I needed to use my left hand, I would bleed out!!!! My whole life, all my left hand was good for was to scratch my butt.

I highly recommend each of you get EMT certified, or at least First Aid certified.
Buy a good field medical book, and get some good tools.

I promise, it will be worth it.





















treat horses other than my own.
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Old September 17, 2010, 14:21   #74
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There's a store up here that sells survival/medical/tactical gear that has (among other things) Xylocaine 2% (Lido and epi mix). They have other cool and very hard to find items such as OC grenades and the like. Friggin' sweet store.

I'll be going to Medical Corps' "Medical Response in Hostile Environments" class next month - should be very good, check it out: http://www.medicalcorps.org/

ETA

I wrote a review for the class, find it here:

http://armsandequipment.com/medictraining.htm
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Old November 03, 2010, 02:51   #75
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Staples are the way to go - MUCH easier to self administer - hurts a bit but no local needed:-) done it a couple of times. That is if super glue isnt handy.
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Old November 24, 2010, 14:24   #76
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Yes, staples rule. I went to the Medical Corps class and it was GREAT! I need to write a review now...
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Old December 03, 2010, 10:07   #77
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Hi all.

Just an FYI.......went here : http://www.shopmedvet.com/

I just purchased both regular (R) and wide (W) sterile staplers, each having 35 staples and a sterile remover for a total of $16 plus shipping. Total was $25. That beats the cost of anything else I've seen out there. These are for vets, of course, but I don't see any difference in using them on myself or wife in the case of an emergency. I do have a good assortment of sutures but would much prefer to use staples to close a deep wound. I don't have the required experience for sutures although maybe someone else in our group might be able to use them so I'll keep them with the kit.

I’ve found this particular forum extremely helpful in helping me build the extremely complete emergency medical kit I’ve assembled over the course of a couple of years.

Thx!

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Old December 07, 2010, 21:48   #78
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Good stuff Rome, you should do a writeup on your gear- I always like looking at other people's setups to see what I might be missing! I plan on doing one soon, when I do I'll link to it...
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Old December 07, 2010, 23:00   #79
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Actually, I'm going to have a medic do a review of my bag for me toward the end of the month. I know I have too much of some things but am missing a couple of items or don't have enough of others. But, as bags go, I've been building this one over a few years so I've got a good supply of a lot of stuff that would be a god-send in a shtf scenario for injuries or illnesses.

Just to be clear here......I'm not trying to play doctor. Hell, I didn't even sleep at a Quality Inn. However, I would hope that the group I end up with will have a trained person to use the more exotic stuff I've added. But, in a pinch, I can handle emergencies well enough and without doing more damage.

The staples kits arrive tomorrow. When I get my inventory completed, I'll most certainly post up here, probably in new thread, just to get an honest critic. I think some of the stuff I've added aren't normally considered but, in an emergency situation, would be very much appreciated.

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Old January 22, 2011, 16:15   #80
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Please remember folks that many of these locals must be kept refrigerated or they will loose their effectiveness. Please read the information that come with EVERY regulated drug, especially the conraindications. You could end up killing someone when you are trying to put a few stitches in.
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Old December 15, 2011, 22:40   #81
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Black Samson/Purple coneflower/ echinacea AKA Grandfather plant/Indian novocaine. It is all over in the spring and summer in the west. Dig up an adult flower and use the roots. The roots are hard and have a bark like material on them. Scrape it with a pocket knife and chew into a pulp. It will NUMB YOUR MOUTH so it might be wiser to mash in a bowl with some water or something.

An old wildland firefighter showed me this plant that he was shown by some Crow Indian firefighters, hence the grandfather plant reference. It is great stuff we would chew on it because it made your mouth really water and we were water logged from drinking so much because of the heat. It has to be great for a person's health as well because it's wild echinacea.

http://www.wildflower.org/plants/result.php?

id_plant=ECAN2http://www.groworganic.com/pvfs-coneflower-black-sampson-pack.html

http://windowontheprairie.com/tag/bl...son-echinacea/
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Old February 15, 2012, 19:04   #82
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I use giant carpenter ants to close my wounds...Just let em' pinch the wound as you hold it closed and then pinch the body away from the head.......saw it on a national geographic show... ...Never really tried it.....but it worked...
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Old February 16, 2012, 09:43   #83
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Every winter, my hands get really dry. To the extent that my thumb has developed "cracks" in the skin; some small and some not so small. A couple years ago, I had one that just wouldn't stay closed. It was in an area that constantly flexed and split open again. Finally, I held it closed with one hand and my wife applied super glue to the split. That did work. Using some good hand lotion on a regular basis would help I know. Or maybe udder balm...
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Old February 16, 2012, 14:28   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ackks View Post
Years ago when I had my wisdom teeth out the nurse hit my arm with some kind of freeze spray so I wouldn't feel the IV going in (worked great). Does anyone know what that was? I'm buying the kit from staple kit from Cabelas, so I'd love to throw that in my bag with it.
Probably ethyl chloride or similar - http://www.gebauer.com/Products/Geba...e-%281%29.aspx

Used to use a similar product when I worked in PT for directed chilling before deep tissue massage, etc. We couldn't keep a large stock, since it would evaporate in the bottle over a period of about 3 months. A aerosol spray can of ether (starting fluid) would probably work just the same - just be careful around open flames, etc.
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Old February 16, 2012, 15:06   #85
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This is a good thread. Even the comments made in jest.....
I am going to admit that I have taken some unorthodox actions to obtain local anesthetics for my family medical supplies....
I am a commercial fisherman....A very dangerous job as far as work fields go....It is not at all uncommon to get infectious lacerations and even amputations in this line of work.....Crushing injuries, heart attacks anaphylactic shock from poisonous sea life and exposure to the elements are commonplace.
Subsequently,I have made many trips to the hospital emergency room for my self and for others.....It is there that the complacency of others and opportunity has supplies me w/ plenty of sutures of all types and gauges, topical antiseptics/anesthetics, IV supplies/saline/h2o and antibiotics.....(Vancomycin)
Although I obtained some of the supplies in a nefarious manner I have also had a lot of help from caregivers that wanted to see me have the medical supplies that I might need to care for my crew offshore reguarding medical care.

I practice opportunistic acquisition.....To a certain extent.....Salt
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Old March 08, 2012, 17:10   #86
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[QUOTE=doc390;1935639]The use of "crazy glue" is highly under-rated. I use it regularly in the ED. As long as the area being repaired isn't under too much skin tension, & bleeding's controlled, it'll do for most minor wounds. Consider that some orthopods are using it for skin closure after a total knee replacement..... much skin tension there.

As a surgeon I need to comment on the fact that there is a missing piece to this argument- we always place a lot of subdermal and usually subcuticular sutures. So yes, on first appearance it seems that wound was closed with dermabond (medical grade superglue). However, it is supported by multiple layers of suture. The Dermabond is used because it is convenient for patients in terms of dressing changes and hygiene- the patient can shower the evening of surgery if desired, with only a half-hearted attempt to keep the area dry.

So, for all you medical people out there: superglue is useful for minor lacerations, but often needs supported by absorbable sutures placed under the skin. Also, superglue does not "dry" by air contact, so there is no use in fanning the glue. Just focus on letting it harden, which is accomplished via a chemical reaction with a rate of polymerization unrelated to airflow. Stop the bleeding, irrigate with saline, pinch the wound edges together and apply at least 2 coats, 3 is better.

Regarding the OP: for a cheap local anesthetic for wound closure, surprisingly, liquid Benadryl solution (diphenhydramine) works. Don't inject it, just pour some in the wound and wait about 10 minutes. Then irrigate, debride mangled tissue and close (if appropriate). It's not as good as lidocaine, but it is cheap, available and legal. I had to use it on myself once, so I can testify that it reduced the pain by about 90%.
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Old March 08, 2012, 17:13   #87
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I have heard that veterinary supply stores (particularly in rural areas) can be pretty forthcoming with non-abusable meds. Plus they expect fairly large volume orders.
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Old March 08, 2012, 17:53   #88
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Alcohol as a "general anesthetic" i.e. gulped in anticipation of surgery is a joke. It doesn't work unless you chug enough to stop breathing (not a plus in the field).

Ketamine is an excellent choice and is available through veterinary supply chains. It has a nice added effect for trauma in that it raises blood pressure.
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Old March 08, 2012, 20:41   #89
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Ketamine is a schedule 3 drug, get caught with it and you're looking 3-5 years.
It's not available from supply houses or in feed stores. But one of the best battlefield drugs there is.
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Old March 08, 2012, 23:44   #90
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Bought some lidocaine for the BOB the other week from this place, transaction went fine. Ran my fingertip across the residual powder clinging to the side of the bag and rubbed it on my gums, a very minute amount. Minutes later my fingertip was numb and my mouth felt like I just left the dentist. Works for me.

http://us.ebid.net/perl/main.cgi?go=...=lidocaine&go=
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Old March 09, 2012, 22:46   #91
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You need to find out what concentration that powder is. Toxicity is well known. I would weigh it out into safe doses for an average size man and dole into small test tubes. Check lab supply stores for the small containers. Also know the signs of lido toxicity- tingling around face and mouth, seizures and ventricular arrhythmia. It can kill, I have seen it.

My friggin dog kennel has a big bucket of ketamine they sprinkle on troublesome dogs food. They get it from veterinary supply. But I suppose it could be old.

Deep sedation or general anesthesia will be difficult without the right connections. That's ok because it isn't usually safe without monitoring and expertise.
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Old March 11, 2012, 22:23   #92
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It's for my BOB and any topical applications that may require numbing to sew or staple back together. I have no intentions of injecting it, nor do I see brain surgery or organ transplanting in the cards. Like anything else, start out small and work your way up until the desired effect is achieved. It ain't that tough.
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Old July 14, 2012, 09:05   #93
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I'm talking survival scenarios here...
Currently, I just drive to the doctors or the hospital, what I am talking about is a requirement if there are no medical facilities. what you call a shtf environment. At this time I would care less what is legal, but what is necessary for survival. !
Clove oil has been used for thousands of years as a natural antiseptic and oral pain killer.

As far as suturing goes I'd use Super Glue for an out of the way emergency situation. Painless and it works.

You also might try getting your hands on 1 of those medical staplers. They are quick with minimal pain.
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Old July 14, 2012, 09:13   #94
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Just so you have a source, the vet supply house that has shipped to me without any issues is here: http://www.shopmedvet.com/

They're actually having a sale on staple kits. Check 'em out.

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Old December 10, 2012, 00:16   #95
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Originally Posted by ronpaulFAL View Post
Alcohol as a "general anesthetic" i.e. gulped in anticipation of surgery is a joke. It doesn't work unless you chug enough to stop breathing (not a plus in the field).

Ketamine is an excellent choice and is available through veterinary supply chains. It has a nice added effect for trauma in that it raises blood pressure.
Might be worth saying that ketamine also raises intracranial pressure; not a good thing when a head injury might be involved.
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Old November 04, 2013, 02:21   #96
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Well, in true isolated SHTF and emergency surgery.... whiskey.

It worked in the civil war for amputations.
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Old November 04, 2013, 07:34   #97
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I keep a hard copy of "the best of JasonB" in my BOB. Works great for insomnia, too.
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Old November 04, 2013, 09:26   #98
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Dermabond, staples, butterfly bandages, etc., are for closing the superficial, outermost layer of skin. On deep wounds, they must be closed with suture in layers. Usually, the deeper layers are closed with a larger diameter suture, to hold everything together. Once this is accomplished, the superficial layer of skin can be closed with dermabond, etc., nicely.

The main thing you need to consider is the cleanliness of wound--it's not advised to close up a wound that hasn't been properly cleaned, and all foreign matter removed. It could end up killing you.

Here are some good links:

http://practicalplasticsurgery.org/the-book/

http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/152667130#
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Old November 14, 2014, 19:35   #99
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Dermabond is superglue. Same deal just costs more. My PCP keeps my lidocaine both with and without epinephirine stocked. When dates expire, I give him old and he replaces with new. You have to build a good relationship with your general practitioner to make this happen. If you flip docs every few years then it probably wont happen. You also have to prove to them you know how to use safely. Take some courses and get certifications even if just Red Cross first aid, CPR and others. Wilderness First Responder is one of the easier respected courses. I do sutures and stitches all the time on self and others. Even sewed on two of my doctors on weekends.

Juicing and sewing myself:







Wife super glueing my head closed:





Guess its obvious I popped myself with something out of the kit before the glueing began. The crux was cutting the busted meat in a manner so had good clean glue joints and enough hair that none was glued in wound but not shave back of skull. Hospital emergency room would have shaved back of head, exposed me staff infection and charged insurance a chunk. Did fax in an order for C.T. scan to make sure no internal damage. I have found independent imaging service if I fax official looking order can get scan approved through insurance and radiologist report comes direct to me.

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Old November 14, 2014, 20:23   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronpaulFAL View Post
Deep sedation or general anesthesia will be difficult without the right connections.
AKA: Degrees of dead. Had more that a few conversations with anesthesiologists, amazing how close they can take you to the edge of the abyss. Crack your chest, saw off part of your hip, amputate a leg and you don't even twitch.

Most times, afterwards, you start breathing on your own again.

Some times, the patient goes off chasing dragons for no known reason and ends up getting a time pronounced.
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