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Old August 30, 2015, 09:28   #1
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Guide for Developing High - Quality Emergency Operations Plans for Houses of Worship

Yeah, from the White House surprisingly.

Potentially useful for some of you.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/def...ship_final.pdf

In case anyone's forgotten this 2007 event, this is how the Charleston massacre *could have* ended/been averted.

http://michellemalkin.com/2007/12/09...urity-staffer/
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Old September 07, 2015, 12:38   #2
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My church has had official plan and combination of off duty law enforcement, ex military and civilians with some form of previous experience. For past ten years have had seven armed men with five stationary plus two rovers. The plan was put on paper by an active local police officer with SWAT training and while I was happy we got this far, for size of our church always thought it was too light. Between three packed house morning services in main sanctuary, have youth church which their sanctuary is larger than many entire churches, children's church, Sunday School Classes and small groups all moving about with over 1,000 people on property from 8:00 am till 1:00 pm then a 3:30 pm and 6:00 pm service which our previous plan was fine for evenings and Wednesday's.

We are now running a new intermediate plan with ten men and plan is to increase that as time to recruit and train is mandatory. Our worst issue is by unofficial count we estimate over 100 men in congregation now carrying so if something goes down going to have a wicked cross fire situation from good intentioned shooters. I have suggested having all our active law enforcement wear uniforms and stand at best tactical locations to hopefully have some of the lone ranger types to feel like it's covered and might leave guns in car. We would have four every Sunday and could put one uniformed man in children's and youth sanctuary and two in the big room. Also suggest we possibly hire two uniformed officers to put at welcome station in atrium and at security door which is used to keep children's area locked.

Every church is different but we are lining the reception counter in atrium and at children's reception with bullet resistant material so officers and volunteers stationed there would have safe barricade. With four uniformed officers and ten plain cloths we would be good. If upper to six uniformed then could drop to seven plain cloths for fair coverage. Some churches I visit have had metal detectors and uniformed officers for years. Before Dad passed, all deacons at his church were required to get CCW, take a training course then twice a year they had in-house training. Other than basics don't want to give too much of our church plan out other than we do have one which is getting better. Willing to discuss in more detail off board. Have personally talked with heads of security at several other churches that have run active security for years including one where had active shooter make it to front of church and run his gun dry in attempt to kill pastor. Every church should have a plan and see that training is done along with training of non armed staff on how to herd panicked groups of people.
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Old September 07, 2015, 13:30   #3
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Store food,water, medicines, and firearms????

We put into storage at Temple an emergency food, water and medical (basic kits) assets several years ago.

I've found that most people, simply are ate up with normalcy bias and refuse to even consider that the world we all live in can change overnight to a dog eat dog situation without warning.

I've given up trying to convince anyone that when you "need" a firearm to defend yourself and your loved ones is not the time to try and locate one and then learn to use it.
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Old September 07, 2015, 22:07   #4
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I've given up trying to convince anyone that when you "need" a firearm to defend yourself and your loved ones is not the time to try and locate one and then learn to use it.
Hey, it always works on those TV shows like WALKING DEAD.

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Old September 07, 2015, 23:03   #5
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Hey, it always works on those TV shows like WALKING DEAD.



I enjoy the WD, mindless entertainment, like a baseball game.

The new one, FTWD, a bunch of liberal school teachers from LA, ya know they going to get ate!

Liberals were complaining about all the black guys getting ate by zombies, on a make believe TV show, and demanding an equal % based upon race.

This makes me believe the country is lost!
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Old September 08, 2015, 08:05   #6
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Yellowhand,
Since you use term "Temple" assume LDS. All of the temples around here have off grid comms, supplies, plans and each ward has centralized warehouse bigger than super Wallyworld. How that would get to individuals during issue is my concern. But as a group, LDS and NAMB are best prepared across the board. Within each group are subsets of individuals better prepared than others. But few churches are prepared for active shooter in middle of congregation during busy service.

Our previous plan was under staffed with lots of holes but since it was penned by member in active law enforcement were unwilling to amend significantly for fear of hurting feelings. The South Carolina and other incidents forced us to review and plan was passed around to multiple persons for review and suggestions then each discussed by committee. Having all staff take the FEMA online Active Shooter course to be better prepared to direct congregation to safer areas in as orderly manner as possible. Putting that into plan and practiced then increasing approved armed staff by 30% has helped. Believe if can get the suggestion to put six uniforms with seven plain cloths the folks carrying as plan for protection never been announced or advertised would encourage half of the people with no business shooting in a moving and panicked herd to leave weapons in car. Visual presence believe will discourage an attempt. Seeing two men in uniform, body armor and weapons when enter main doors is bound to make bad guy think. Then at least one uniform in each big sanctuary would seal the idea we are serious.

One church I attend in Atlanta about once per quarter has metal detectors with two uniform officers at business office entrance Monday through Friday and till person passes through detector and states reason for visit second set of doors are electronically locked. Congregation is used to metal detectors in sanctuary, uniformed and plain cloths security. All the plain cloths are obvious as wear ear pieces and size of professional football linebackers. Three are stationed front row, two at each main door and one at each side/emergency door. Like schools, bigger churches are going to have to just get used to security as becoming obvious easy targets.

Know several congregations looking to integrate security but unsure how to proceed from legal and tactical standpoints. Smaller churches arming the deacons or elders with mandatory training is easiest way to start. Big churches can lean on members in law enforcement jobs. One local church hires six uniformed officers just to work traffic. Once service starts they just sit it cars till service ends, should move inside but they do have a decent system in place even leaving six trained men outside reading news paper. Some churches are tactical nightmares, one I visit has over 1,500 people per service with only two doors in rear of sanctuary and two emergency exits at front. Zero security so two men coming in each of main doors only limitation for damage is amount of ammo they bring.
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Old September 08, 2015, 09:58   #7
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Temple,,, is also used, just shorthand for those of us that go to Synagogues on Friday evening and Saturday morning.
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Old September 08, 2015, 18:07   #8
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Buddy of mine came to know Christ working an off duty security gig at a church.

He said "Hey man, you cant sit on the front row for that many Sundays and not get something out of it."

Indeed.
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Old September 09, 2015, 08:23   #9
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Buddy of mine came to know Christ working an off duty security gig at a church.

He said "Hey man, you cant sit on the front row for that many Sundays and not get something out of it."

Indeed.
Not to be 'that guy', but what's he doing sitting in the front row if he's working security?
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Old September 09, 2015, 23:31   #10
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Not to be 'that guy', but what's he doing sitting in the front row if he's working security?
Always have a guy front row also. Assume big church that is common these days which sits 1,000 to 3,000 people. Need four men on back row at main doors, one man at each side emergency exit, two sitting about center on isle seat and two or three on front row as pastor often the primary target. One church that does a broadcast every morning on TBN will notice three men all 6' 4" and 200 pounds minimum with ear pieces in. One sits congregation center then other two sit front row left and right isle seats. Also they spend as much time looking behind their seats as forward. If pastor preaching Atlanta, New York or Texas same three men front row. Rest of church covered too.

Before I went south health wise the only private security work I did was for pastors. Quite a few high profile pastors get large numbers of death threats of which some have to be taken serious. I still "travel" with a few pastors on occasion. One church I attend pastor is post certified officer and worked full time law enforcement job for over a decade. There is a lock box in his pulpit that has pistol put in before doors are unlocked for service. On occasion if I accompany a pastor to a street witnessing event in Atlanta put them in a vest. The loonies and the muzzies are going to start taking advantage of full rooms of people with few avenues of escape as most sanctuaries built with few places to escape.

Know am assuming Yellowhand Jewish or Seventh Day Adventist. If I were in Jewish congregation these days would really be taking it serious. Any pastor with big television ministry is a target. I helped arm multiple churches over a decade ago and many of their contacts with other pastors thought them odd or crazy. Dads church armed that long ago. Issue is how to do it without looking like SWAT team on duty, but still comfort congregation as our church is rural and big. I can stand at door handing out service programs and easily count over 100 gun shaped bulges on people that am pretty sure are not qualified as more likely to miss perp and hit innocents. We have to get that number down though entire property posted with no concealed weapons signs. Pastor has assured congregation security is present but people are scared and scared people are dangerous. Once bullets start flying security is going to likely put down every shooter not on team. By doing the lone ranger thing making themselves a target.

We have discussed metal detectors but way too much trouble and intrusive. Many guys have their pistols in wives pocket books. If we did the TSA remove shoes, scan bags, wand people it will just bode poorly. May come to that but hope to get enough visible security and discuss enough to get folks to leave guns in cars or home. I don't carry, wear a vest and sit near lock box but don't hold self out as member of team though if needed could be ready to help in a hurry. Due to health can't be there for every service and all training so don't encourage others by being obvious gun on person. I am middle ground person sitting out of sight of most congregation.
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A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
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Old September 09, 2015, 23:36   #11
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Just got off phone, setting up security for High Holy Days at Temple.
I'm back with a gun again in the house of G-d.
Maybe, one day it won't be a requirement.
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Old September 10, 2015, 22:38   #12
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Jewish
Just got off phone, setting up security for High Holy Days at Temple.
I'm back with a gun again in the house of G-d.
Maybe, one day it won't be a requirement.
As long as you and the rest are there and needed, that means the Temple still stands and is active. The Levitical Gatekeepers and Temple Guards go back to when 1st Chronicles was written.
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Old September 11, 2015, 00:14   #13
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As long as you and the rest are there and needed, that means the Temple still stands and is active. The Levitical Gatekeepers and Temple Guards go back to when 1st Chronicles was written.


You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.
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Old September 11, 2015, 07:54   #14
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Also, someone's been keeping track. Interesting statistics.
http://www.carlchinn.com/Church_Security_Concepts.html
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Old September 11, 2015, 09:56   #15
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Also, someone's been keeping track. Interesting statistics.
http://www.carlchinn.com/Church_Security_Concepts.html
Had not seen that, thanks.
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Old September 11, 2015, 18:34   #16
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Just don't stock up on Kool Aid

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Old February 26, 2016, 12:50   #17
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Federal authorities are accusing a Dearborn Heights man of supporting Islamic State extremists and planning to “shoot up” a Detroit church.

Khalil Abu-Rayyan, 21, hasn’t been charged with terrorism-related crimes but faces federal charges of illegally having a firearm while using a controlled substance.

But a complaint unsealed Thursday in U.S. District Court reveals the FBI has been investigating him since May “regarding increasingly violent threats he has made to others about committing acts of terror and martyrdom — including brutal acts against police officers, churchgoers and others — on behalf of the foreign terrorist organization Islamic State of Iraq and Levant.”
http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...tack/79906302/

Grand jury: No terrorism charge against man who fantasized about church attack
http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...sm_charge.html
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Old February 27, 2016, 08:17   #18
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Friend of mine just retired with his 30 on the force and spent entire career going to schools, getting degrees and different specialty skills. Has taken all his knowledge and turned into a business consulting on church security. Says his worst cases are usually ones in which have a couple of post certified former, retired and active police officers. Says in an active shooter scenario the congregation is in as much danger from their self organized security teams. He has always been a shooter, says cops as general rule suck as don't shoot for fun, only enough to keep job then once not having to at least do their qualifications get really bad about spray and pray tactics.

I have been installing a lot of bullet resistant barriers. Information kiosks, children's church check in and such if lined with hardening materials one security person can protect a lot of people hunkered down behind these hard points plus fight more effectively. It's going to get bad as some stabbed together security teams set up some wicked cross fire scenarios.
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Old February 27, 2016, 08:42   #19
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Quote:
Also, someone's been keeping track. Interesting statistics.
http://www.carlchinn.com/Church_Security_Concepts.html
Good link. Wonder how it would play if took it off church grounds. Had member of our church meet woman who was going through bitter divorce with local cop. Husband got fired and brought up on charges of domestic violence. Left country and took job as contractor in middle east for a year which put his case in cold case file. Because of no conviction he returned and got job with local city force. Went to ex wife's home, now member our church where new fiancee, member our church were and shot wife then boyfriend. Daughter and boyfriend escaped out window called 911, local sheriff and deputy (members of our church) responded first and as entering house the ex husband/city cop shot the sheriff and deputy. Another deputy arriving on scene lit the ex husband up and removed from gene pool. So three dead, two shot, four of five attend same church.

Church really had nothing to do with it but the press had a field day. The boyfriend had been removed from all his volunteer responsibilities and asked to leave congregation voluntarily till situation was calmed down just before incident. Pastor saw a bad wind brewing and asked both boyfriend and ex wife to get lives in order before church was involved but ex husband netted up before separation was official. Our church is very large and since sheriff a member, quite a few of his staff are too. A really good man but drug into a mess.

Kills me how a cop can escape prosecution for domestic violence and year later on force in neighboring town. Entire deal looked like hillbilly, inbreeding, fruits and nuts with Bibles and guns losing their minds. Fortunately a lot of distressed people will head toward local church when losing a grip. Church is able to help many but some will drag their mess into the congregation and create a problem. The link showing how much church violence is domestic in origin is very interesting. Looks like only takes "on campus" events into account.

After the South Carolina incident had someone sneezed in our church first couple of weeks wo UL D have been over 100 men drawing down with nobody sure who was friend or foe. Been our biggest issue is to get congregation to trust our security team and not try to confuse a live shooter event as team knows who is supposed to be going offensive and if not a known team member someone might get confused as a problem and eliminated. Our deal is pretty tight and reaction is going to be swift and violent.
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A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
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Old February 27, 2016, 09:38   #20
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Huey , you NEED a form of "ranger eyes" for your security , and those who are armed, so as to identify "friendlies".
Mabey a small / medium sized lapel flower, made of colored silk. have four bright colors so you can vary the weeks and colors.
A more visible avenue would be colored "scraves" that drape around the neck. Kinda like the long white silks the decans in the church of my youth wore, or the sillk overlays honnor sudents wear at grad.
To the non informed, they would look like a form of religous garb ,if done right.Very easy to spot PRIOR to trigger pull.
Of course you would need to keep it on a bit of the down low, but methinks new isis converts would not do the intel necessary to account for such an organized target.
I would also make sure the guys by the door have GOOD vests ,as the uniforms will be the first targets if you come under assult.
I would probably cut the visible security back to TWO uniforms, and have a few of those changing to civies, man positions that would allow for 20" barrel semiauto shotguns, as in a former cloak room or closet. Put in a descrete firing port [ hidden door behind small picture of a crusader, Joan of Arc ,etc] with CC monitor of outside the main ingress, and one veiwing their field of fire.
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Old February 27, 2016, 19:42   #21
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I suggested that all security team members wear identical hats. Since its considered impolite for men to wear hats inside that didn't go over. We went with specific color sports jacket and matching ties for the seven plain cloths guys. Put two guys in their cop uniforms each week now. Whichever draws the children's church check in and welcome kiosk are in uniform. Each of those counters are lined with bullet resistant material and door to children's area is bullet resistant, forced entry resistant and on electronic lock. Each person has to be approved and buzzed into that area and uniformed officer now should make things more safe for kids plus the two uniforms have a nice overlapping field of fire of entry foyer.

Edit:
Uniforms have Level II overt duty armor with IIIa trauma panels front and rear. Pretty standard around here most forces wear armor over clothing instead of under with badge and often molly to carry accessories on vest taking some load off duty belts and making all more ergonomic. The undercovers wear armor at personal discretion.

I have been wearing a Level II vest with a 6"×9" IIIa panel on chest full time since mid November daily instead of as feel working in bad neighborhood. Too much trouble putting on and taking off twice a day. Only two people noticed vest. No cops, just the customers and friends that like to hug folk. Many I tell its a back brace. With shootings like the factory shooter just other day, SC church incident, Cali shooters becoming regular decided to see if able to tolerate full time. Actually has helped my back pain as extra support takes stress off spine. See how it works come summer.

At church since in coat and tie and HVAC, wear IIIa bullet/stab with rigid trauma plates front and rear so can be a shield if women/kids need cover can put myself between them and a shooter. Found my Galco shoulder rig for a 1911 Commander with carry comp for one shot, no shoot through stopping power with fast recovery due to compensator. 8 shot mag with two 10 round extras and daily 380 backup. One of a few people with permission to carry but not listed on team as current post certification required. Entire property marked with "no firearms" signs but a few have letters giving permission and security team knows each of us well. Any "congregation member" that is in violation is at own peril but only a few have been asked to take gun to car. Basically if person is known to have common sense and is a real shooter they are ignored. If non member and firearm noticed are asked to take it out unless they have a badge in pocket.

Near as can tell from watching closely, the 100 plus gun toters per service following SC incident is down to about a dozen or so and most been pulled aside and talked with. Believe it's pretty decent crew and the few who are not approved but not ordered to cease and desist know only to draw if obvious team doesn't have a clean line of fire or overwhelmed. It's a darn complicated issue deciding who to tell not to carry, who you want to be in reserve if needed and realizing always some you will never know are armed. Do best can and put rest in God's hand.
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Last edited by hueyville; February 27, 2016 at 20:59.
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Old February 28, 2016, 12:16   #22
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New measure added today. Uniform officer in patrol car at sidewalk between entrance doors. Had what looked to be an entry vest and AR 15 in lock. Would have to be discouraging if trying enter with rifle as hard to hide then two uniforms inside either door whether coming in children or adult side of atrium/foyer. As leaving my sport coat was blown open by gust of wind and had full size 1911 limited class pistol in a "jack-slide" and he took instant note. Guess since church over and in proper color jacket and tie will know the hippie a white hat instead of black hat.

Know the car was in has the ballistic panel kit in drivers doors. All the pursuit cruisers have them in our church jurisdiction. Assume becoming common as see them come up fairly often now. Luckily got one of the Dodge Charger ballistic door kits on fleaBay cheap a while back for myself and fit my Dakota doors with minimal issues.
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Old March 01, 2016, 13:56   #23
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A terrorist-style plot intended to kill dozens of people with automatic weapons at a Masonic center in Milwaukee was foiled this week by FBI agents, federal prosecutors said Tuesday.

Samy Mohamed Hamzeh discussed his plan to attack the center with two others, detailing how they would quickly and quietly kill the first people they saw and then methodically move through the building, "eliminating everyone" they encountered, according to a federal criminal complaint.

Hamzeh, 23, has been charged with possessing a machine gun and a silencer. Despite indications of an attempted act of terrorism, Hamzeh is not charged with any terrorism counts.

"We are Muslims, defending Muslim religion, we are on our own, my dear, we have organized our own group," Hamzeh said, according to the criminal complaint, adding he was confident it would trigger more attacks in the United States.

"Such operations will increase in America, when they hear about it. The people will be scared and the operations will increase, and there will be problems all over,... this will lead to people clashing with each other. This way we will be igniting it. I mean we are marching at the front of the war," he said, according to the complaint.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/crime/f...366609371.html
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Old March 01, 2016, 14:31   #24
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No offense intended for Native Americans, but so far, we have not really played cowboys and Muslims in this country yet.

They start down this road, in this country, it will not be a pretty sight, this is not London or Paris.

All they have to do is mind their own business, go to their house of worship, obey the laws and societal norms of the USA, and all will be fine.

Up to them.
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Old March 20, 2016, 13:47   #25
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Old March 20, 2016, 21:36   #26
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The nut sack you have in picture is only rated level 1. Stops 380 max. Total waste of time unless groin protector on top and use it to reduce blunt force trauma. On my overt vests use these groin protectors now.



Then add the level 3a diaper if really serious and family jewels are triple protected.



Put level 3a full size panel in big pocket and either the curved 3/8" thick Russian titanium plates or 6"×6" level 3 Dyneema panels in the smaller pocket. If decide to go over the top, can do level 3 helmet with 3a face shield, vest with full 3a coverage plus 11"×14" level 3++ Dyneema front and back, Dyneema side panels, sacrum and groin panels, 3a diaper, thigh protectors, knee and shin protectors and may move like a turtle but if someone shoots me will likely result in pissing me off as would have to replace an expensive panel and get them turned into Swiss cheese. Can put the big vest on and have to have someone roll me around on a hand truck as weight is oppressive if doing anything more than sitting in chair behind a rifle.

Wife recently realized she has put on a few pounds spending so much time in wheelchair and moved from size 4 to 6 to size 6 and 8 in some stuff and freaked. Had to try on all her armor to be sure it fit. Finally bit bullet and purchased a women's 3++ Dyneema front panel. Was odd while looking as found a ton of Marine Corp MARPAT in maternity sizes. Apparently enough female Marines end up pregnant have to do maternity uniforms. We decided to skip that and adopt a good kid so didn't end up with crackhead kids.

Any of those options are a bit much for church unless we had a known threat and would not be wandering around in congregation. All churches need a good plan and staff. I am not official staff as insurance says have to be post certified. I am an approved unofficial rule breaker. Have a couple of us as we have been good members for over decade and out shoot all the post trained guys on our worst days.
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Old March 21, 2016, 06:04   #27
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The nut sack you have in picture is only rated level 1. Stops 380 max.

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Old March 21, 2016, 14:08   #28
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I KNOW FOR A FACT, that white T-shirts dyed OD green will stop/deflect any caliber round fired from more than 100 yards away, but only on Sunday's and Thursday's, the rest of the week, the effective/positive aspects of the dyed green T shirt drops to only 39% because of the action of the moon on the local tides, and some suggest, but it is at yet impossible to prove, that the addition of sunspot activity may be partially to blame for this drop off.

DARMA is still working on the variation of the protective factors and their causes, but the root known facts still remain.

Dyed Green T-shirts save lives in gun battles!

More data is required before anyone can make this claim about dyed green under ware in that most/many do not wear under wear in tropical/hot areas, but further study will continue.
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Old March 21, 2016, 14:36   #29
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Geez,I wish you guys wouldn't carry hammer-back. Yeah,i know they're no supposed to go "bang" like that,but is a mechanical thing,and anything made by men can fail.
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Old March 21, 2016, 16:20   #30
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Geez,I wish you guys wouldn't carry hammer-back. Yeah,i know they're no supposed to go "bang" like that,but is a mechanical thing,and anything made by men can fail.
RG, if you travel through Cochise County AZ, and a lot of the Southwest, you will see our Sheriff Deputies all with their 1911's carried condition one, so don't look!

The only way my 1911's ever go into the holster.
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Old March 21, 2016, 17:45   #31
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I put all this on before firing up the steam engine in my mechanical spider and heading off to Sunday services.


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Old March 21, 2016, 17:46   #32
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[heathen]I am typically on a rifle range with a loaded gun in my hand while folks are in church. [/heathen]
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Old March 21, 2016, 17:50   #33
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[heathen]I am typically on a rifle range with a loaded gun in my hand while folks are in church. [/heathen]
My buddy's congregation meets in the galley of their gun club. Y'all want his number? Right up the road in Pax River.

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Old March 21, 2016, 17:55   #34
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I don't usually shoot selfies with my gun rigs.

But when I do shoot gun-rig selfies, I do it with the toilet in the pic after taking a dump, and while waiting for the fan to draw the odor out.
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Old March 21, 2016, 20:39   #35
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I don't usually shoot selfies with my gun rigs.

But when I do shoot gun-rig selfies, I do it with the toilet in the pic after taking a dump, and while waiting for the fan to draw the odor out.
Pics or GTFO
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Old March 22, 2016, 06:45   #36
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Any other mirrors and shows unique things in house. Everyone has a toilet. Believe my posts are relatively on topic as new working with three churches on security. Referred all to a friend with 35 years law enforcement and has started a real security company around helping churches develop security plans and train teams. Guy is top notch with masters degree, SWAT team including commander for over a decade, lots of specialized training for school security and trained school resource officers, handled some sensitive areas during 96 Olympics and more.

Unfortunately two don't have any budget and each only have one relatively young patrolman in congregation. It least it gave me a team member to put in charge. My system for such is same as did with my Dad's church many years ago. Took all deacons to courthouse to get CCW and had them bring personal pistols to range. Most didn't have appropriate firearm but did figure out most had no business shooting in a crowd during stressful situation.

From their got most a better weapon that was easy to use, the military veterans, especially 11 Bravo at least had some training that came back with a little reinforcement. Let each shoot a variety of handguns to see what naturally shoot best. Most times end up with men in 50's and 60's thus 5 shot wheel guns in 38 special with standard load 125 grain JHP's were intuitive. All got one speed loader and a pocket holster. On occasion find a man who can handle a mid size 9mm pretty well. Take them to range half dozen times, get them hitting man size target center of mass and write quarterly group trip to range with 50 rounds per man mandatory.

Then based on door placement, entry foyers, guest kiosks and children's churches plus number of men develop best tactical placement possible. One church pastor is post certified law enforcement, police department chaplain and shoots like a banshee. Mounted one of those quick open pistol vaults in pulpit and he can lock his duty pistol in just before service. Take their uniform(s) and place in entry forum and close as possible to children's area and still get good view of people coming in building. The deacons work as greeters as church starts up then move to their locations.

Only gotten one per church other than the police officers to spring for a vest and still trying to get church to buy or guys to buy and big issue is most are so heavy, don't want to appear heavier so at least if they engage bullet will likely stop in them instead of going through and getting a double as others maneuver for a shot. Big issue is teaching them to slow their roll on taking first shot and make sure 100% sure.

One church has done well. Went for an eight camera system with DVR and one man in sound booth watching two cameras monitoring each exterior entrance, two in foyer and four in church to be used for watching for odd people and evidence. They have hired a local uniform to work entrance based on a recommendation and guy is good shooter. All deacons working hard on shooting skills and half wearing level 2 as my reasoning of being able to shield their wives and kids sank in.

I speak in lots of churches as a guest quite often thus have relationships going back way before this became a serious issue for most. Since know me and trust me to work with teens and youth, especially the ones have taught marksmanship to their Boy Scout troops are doing best they can with little to no budget and men are buying guns and training ammo out of pocket. It's a stretch for a lot of guys to buy a pistol, pay for range time and burn a couple hundred rounds for initial training. Then the plan having another 200 rounds per year for quarterly tune up is more than most have shot in their life.

Most are taking serious and feel can hit a man at average gunfight distance by time initial training is done and some are pretty sharp. Hardest thing was getting them to sit in different area than sat past 20 years. A few trips to range, write a plan, put men in best location, armor those that will, try to get at least one uniform visible at each church and convince them to go shooting four times a year is not enough but 500% better than a few guys just toting their odd home defense pistol of choice.

The big churches are spending big money. Our church just spent 25k upgrading sound system. Can afford three rent a cops each Sunday and one on Wednesday plus team trained by local Sheriff's Department. I just hang around and pick up slack if someone misses early church or Wednesday night. Wish could get all in armor. While head, groin, hip, leg shots not protected nor rifles, the uniform at entrance should engage a rifle if not first one down and give team a heads up while people freak out. Wish could train congregations how to take cover and move. Some churches are just letting willing members go cowboy with no formal plan. Afraid will get more shot that way than just not worrying about it at all.

When have to worry about nuts at schools and church the world has gone in toilet. And no, don't want bedrooms in background of pictures showing how easy to conceal a fairly heavy load out for church.
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Old June 14, 2016, 06:59   #37
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http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...tack/79906302/


Feds: Dearborn Hts. man supports ISIS, planned attack
Khalil Abu-Rayyan, 21, alleged ISIS sympathizer, has been arrested. Photo courtesy WDIV less

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Federal authorities are accusing a Dearborn Heights man of supporting Islamic State extremists and planning to “shoot up” a Detroit church.

Khalil Abu-Rayyan, 21, hasn’t been charged with terrorism-related crimes but faces federal charges of illegally having a firearm while using a controlled substance.

But a complaint unsealed Thursday in U.S. District Court reveals the FBI has been investigating him since May “regarding increasingly violent threats he has made to others about committing acts of terror and martyrdom — including brutal acts against police officers, churchgoers and others — on behalf of the foreign terrorist organization Islamic State of Iraq and Levant.”

Besides allegedly using Twitter to express support for the terror group — often referred to as ISIS or ISIL — Abu-Rayyan reportedly told an undercover FBI employee about a plot to target a church.

“I tried to shoot up a church one day,” Abu-Rayyan is quoted as saying in court records. “I don’t know the name of it, but it’s close to my job. It’s one of the biggest ones in Detroit. Ya, I had it planned out. I bought a bunch of bullets. I practiced a lot with it. I practiced reloading and unloading. But my dad searched my car one day, and he found everything. He found the gun and the bullets and a mask I was going to wear.”

Investigators didn’t name the church Abu-Rayyan allegedly eyed, but claim the property covers about two blocks less than half a mile from his work and can accommodate up to 6,000 members. He allegedly purchased a gun and told an undercover FBI employee that attacking a church would be “easy.”

“A lot of people go there. Plus people are not allowed to carry guns in church,” the affidavit quotes him as saying. “Plus it would make the news. Everybody would’ve heard. Honestly I regret not doing it. (If I) can’t go do jihad at the Middle East, I would do my jihad over here.”

Abu-Rayyan appeared in federal court Thursday and was detained pending a hearing on Monday, said Gina Balaya, public information officer for the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Detroit.

Court records show he was assigned a federal defender, who did not immediately respond to a request for comment Friday night. Messages left for those listed as his relatives were not returned.

“If the allegations are true, then they’re extremely troublesome,” said Dawud Walid, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations’ Michigan chapter.

He said the group is urging caution “and encouraging the broader community to also reserve judgment regarding this matter.”

The court document claims Abu-Rayyan used Twitter for “retweeting, liking and commenting” on IS propaganda since late 2014. According to the affidavit, the posts included “video of a Jordanian fighter pilot being burned alive, men being thrown from a high rise building to execute them, the beheading of Christians in Egypt and news of ISIL victories.”

In December, he communicated with an undercover FBI employee through social media; during conversations over several weeks, “Abu-Rayyan consistently expressed support for ISIL and repeatedly expressed his desire to commit a martyrdom operation,” the document read. He also said he had an AK-47 with a 40-round magazine like other extremist fighters.

The affidavit says Abu-Rayyan told the undercover FBI employee a firearm he bought in October wasn’t suitable “because it only held six shots and he would have to keep reloading.”

The next month, he “tweeted photos of himself firing an AK-47 type and AR-15 type rifles at a local firing range”; one was captioned “Sahwat hunting,” which authorities said “is a term for Iraqis who oppose ISIL.”

Federal officials said Abu-Rayyan bought a .22 caliber revolver in October from a Dearborn Heights sporting goods store but lacked a concealed pistol license. On Oct. 7, Detroit police pulled him over for speeding; inside the 2001 Buick Century, officers found marijuana. Arrested for toting the drug and carrying a concealed weapon, Abu-Rayyan was later released on bond.

On Nov. 15, the same day the pending case denied him the chance to buy another pistol, Abu-Rayyan rented a firearm at the firing range pictured on Twitter later that month, according to the affidavit.

Wayne County prosecutors charged him for the gun and marijuana; he pleaded guilty to the drug possession Jan. 15 and was scheduled for trial Feb. 16 on the weapon charge, authorities said.

Soon after he pleaded guilty, Abu-Rayyan told the undercover person he “wanted to kill the officer who arrested him.” Since the officer’s heart attack delayed a trial, Abu-Rayyan “wanted to do a martyrdom operation at the hospital, killing the police officer in the process,” according to court documents. The next day, he told the undercover FBI employee about carrying a “large knife or sword in his car” in case of a fight and said “it is my dream to behead someone,” documents allege.

The case coincides with Muslims in Michigan and nationwide facing tensions amid fears about rising extremism in the wake of the recent Paris and California attacks.

“We advise people not to jump to conclusions about what happened and wait for all of the facts to come in,” said Muzammil Ahmed, board chairman for the Michigan Muslim Community Council. “Our thoughts are with our Christian friends and congregation that were threatened. We think that isolated acts like this, if they are indeed true, are an anomaly in this area.”

The U.S. House of Representatives overwhelmingly approved GOP legislation that erected fresh hurdles for Syrian and Iraqi refugees trying to enter the United States. Gov. Rick Snyder suspended efforts to open Michigan to Syrians fleeing their country’s civil war, joining other governors in asking the federal government to examine and toughen security screenings of refugee applicants.

Soon after the shootings in San Bernardino, California, Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump called for a ban on all Muslims entering the U.S. — a call that drew rebukes from many, yet found support among others.

CAIR’s national chapter noted that in his visit to a Baltimore-area mosque this week, President Barack Obama rejected “inexcusable political rhetoric” targeting Muslims.
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Old August 23, 2016, 18:49   #38
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Have spent almost two years researching and putting together the T,O&E for a church security team along with plans to integrate the parking lot attendents, usher and greeter team, volunteer medical team, paid staff and our local law enforcement officers that rotate in and out of the team. We try to have two to three active post certified officers each week. The task was actually quite daunting and my task log shows over 800 hours researching and writing plans for each team to integrate together. Our medical team is top notch with multiple doctors, nurses, EMT's, paramedics and other health care professionals. Have IFAK's stashed in every kiosk, room with locker holdimg enough equipment for field surgery. Have a team of grief counselors and a team whose job is to lock down campus and allow nobody to leave while not contaminating the crime scene.

If putting together a team for your church the second you adopt a written plan, call it a team and start training then you have to satisfy all state and federal laws concerning armed security providers. In Georgia all members, if not post certified law enforcement, must get Secretary of State issued "Blue Cards" for armed security guards even if working as volunteers. That is 24 hours of approved security guard training followed by 16 hours of firearms instruction which when working for the church or entity that sponsors you gives basic rights of arrest and use of deadly weapons while on their property. In South Carolina their licensing is 80 hours.

Today took an eight hour class on "Safety and Security for Places of Worship" from a company called Training Force USA. Fairly informative but not much had not found in previous research except for confirming information and conclusions. Whats scary is if don't handle before law enforcement shows up, in active shooter scenarios, cops on average shoot more bystanders than perpetrators and why we decided to proceed and pay all the money including increased insurance costs. Hope to stop a shooter before law enforcement dispatches as they are coming into an unfamiliar facility, don't know the players as don't have a program, so will start our team at the live fire and simulations kill house phase when the heat of summer breaks.

We had the option of just allowing our CCW holders to carry on campus and hope for the best with no hoops or increased insurance costs but without a cohesive team with good training then would likely be creating a shooting gallery of wicked cross fire if something were to go down. It's been a long, complicated costly process but FBI statistics scared the crap out of us. Based on a ten year (2000 - 2010) and two year (2012 - 2014) FBI study 60% of incidents at 10 feet or under where a cop and perpetrator had equal opportunity to go for a gun the cop lost. In active shooter scenarios cops usually shot more bystanders than perps. In annual qualifying, at the 50 foot mark cops have more misses on a man sized silhouette target than hits. To have them coming in with those statistics while giving the shooter free reign while waiting for them was deemed untennable. Not saying all cops are poor shots as know some that are top notch and would not want to go toe to toe with at any range, just running the FBI averages.

Also cops are now trained in active shooter situations to enter in pairs and shoot anyone that doesn't comply immediately to commands. We have mentally challenged, deaf and blind people along with elderly and just plain stupid that will get themselves shot in panick mode. We see the same people every week so barring a congregation member going rouge, we will be better prepared to decide who to shoot and who not to. Implimenting communications, video surveillance, less than lethal weapons, proper restraining methods, firearms training, approved weapons and ammo, multi team coordination procedures and more has been a huge task that will go on for duration.

Best commitment could get on training is quarterly formal range day, biannual kill house training and monthly classroom meeting the months don't hit the range. Getting volunteers to commit to a training session per month and minimum of four shifts per month weeded the Barneys out pretty quick. Only had to ask one member to step down. Dude decided to go looney and started doing traffic stops in his personal vehicle and impersonated a cop using a novelty badge. Several of our Ushers, Greeeters, Parking Lot Attendents and Sunday School teachers are paYing on way through Blue Card training to function as reserve but don't want full time security positions. If any of you have formed teams be sure to check your state laws and insurance company requirements before jumping in the deep end. Active shooters are actually a very low odds scenario and our biggest issue is dealing with identifying and hopefully avoiding child molestation in the children's pods. That is a churches biggest issue with theft of equipment second. Odd world we are living in.
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Old September 23, 2016, 19:28   #39
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So we have been working on a security team for church and it's becoming a pretty good group. Good men, lots of training, acquired good equipment and been sending me to lots of training. The fear of an active shooter is the catalyst that started this but more school I take, an active shooter drops farther down the list of issues to worry about.

1 in 4 females are sexually assaulted as children. 1 in 7 boys have same problem. 70% of child sexual abuse victims don't mention what happened till in therapy over the age of 30. It's estimated only 30% of child sexually predators are caught and they have an average of 62 victims before being caught. That means a lot of kids are being abused without perps being caught with churches, day care and schools being soft targets for perverts.

We do mandatory background checks on all paid staff and anyone volunteers that work with the kids. But with over 750 kids some days we have around 100 adults working with them and the math says odds are someone is slipping through our checks. Topping it all off, learning how NCIC computer access is limited, most background check services can easily miss out of state convictions if someone comes in from another part of the country.

Now that we have a good team built and trained for our initial formation, are branching out into other high level threats. We have majority of our security staff tasked to protecting the kids but need to tighten up our background checks for people entering and already in the children's programs. Some services just check your home state, some easy to access states that don't charge them for accessing their state systems. We can only have local cops use NCIC for an active investigation with a case number assigned legally which we run by the rules. Thus looking for a better background check company to screen our people. We get release forms signed by all, have fingerprints taken and any that give us an odd feeling have to be interviewed by a psychiatrist who specializes in sexually predators.

Anyone here have a recommendation for companies that do super tight background checks? If your church isn't screening their children's workers well may want to discuss it at staff level after researching the statistics. The math pretty much says most churches have a pervert at work. Have to get this area of our security as tight as possible while addressing other issues as well. We are basically having to become a full fledged private police force to secure all of the potential issues on our campuses. Next week we are going to make a decision on a new background check company and figured would pick the brains of the folks in here to see if a gold nugget would appear in the pan. Don't get tunnel vision on your church security issues, look at the entire picture folks.
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Old December 23, 2016, 23:38   #40
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http://www.reuters.com/article/us-us...-idUSKBN14D007

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The notice from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and Department of Homeland Security was issued out of an abundance of caution after a publicly available list of U.S. churches was published on pro-Islamic State websites.
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Old December 24, 2016, 06:18   #41
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Beat me to it, was coming to post same thing. Google it and will get hundreds of hits. Got call yesterday since head of security for a church with over 1,000 in attending multiple services. Also got Homeland Security warning. Been getting my entire crew together plus hired four instead of two uniformed officers.

I don't want to say too much but we have had more incidents than can count including armed intruders with intent. One we tackled, drug out of building, because a cop played the badge card for release then shot/killed his ex wife and her boy friend a couple weeks later at her house. He also shot two local cops responding and engaged a third. We had armed person (man dressed as woman) recently and when approached to question he/it ran to car parked in closest handicap parking and bolted. Out of state, stolen plates. We are the largest church in our county by huge amount thus a primary target.

I go to training from FEMA, Homeland, Law Enforcement and more regularly. Andy Stanly (one of the largest churches in America and very vanilla pastor) told his congregation that in next five years to expect it to be 50/50 chance of getting killed going to church. To consider it hard and trust God or if not serious, find another hobby. Our team works closely with law enforcement and we have uniformed officers plus covert team with handguns, armor and rifles in lock boxes. 2017 budget we are getting shotguns with less than lethal rounds for trouble makers.

Have a security concern at least once a month as large as we are. Child abuse, attempted kidnapping, shooters, theft and more. Know one church coordinate with spending over a million per year on security, another 3.5 million. Both are mega churches and had shooters. John Haygee had shooter get on pulpit and fire gun dry missing him every shot. If your church doesn't have a team, advise pastor that legally anytime an event draws a crowd the venue is legally obligated to provide security. We are past praying and hoping now. Have to be active. Will arrive hour before first service to put rifle in lockbox.
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Old December 24, 2016, 12:39   #42
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I would expect attacks to continue one at a time and not much to change, until we get hit in coordinated strikes all at the same time.
Say hit ten or 20 houses of worship at one time all over the country, then the country will take those actions to prevent it ever happening again.
Sadly, I expect we will need ANOTHER Pearl Harbor event before we REALLY take the gloves off and put a final stop to this shit.
The first one on 9/11, is now long forgotten.
Come 20 Jan, my hope is that the response will be far different, time will tell though.
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Old December 24, 2016, 14:19   #43
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got to start watching local news more!


http://www.abc15.com/news/crime/isis...ne-wolf-attack
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Old November 07, 2017, 08:06   #44
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Till January I was head of security of a mid/large size church that ran three services on Sunday, one on Wednesday in two or three sanctuaries. I would still have the job and has been offered to me again about every 60 days and as recently as yesterday. If you are on a church security team make sure and learn all laws applicable to your state on security operations and carry of weapons in church. When took the job all was cool and we were doing a lot of planning and recruiting. Pastor, staff and elders were working in a budget for the team and in addition to law enforcement recruited one of the best hunters/shooters I know, a recently retired Army Ranger with five combat tours, a highly competative IDPA shooter and among our law enforcement officers was head of local SWAT team. All were meshing well but I got an odd email mid 2016 telling me decisions on how to proceed were in hold until new insurance policy terms were finalized.

Team kept working, kept recruiting but shifted from civilians to as many off duty law enforcement as possible as I know Georgia law inside and out. We have had carry laws expanded in Georgia twice in past few years where it's legal to carry almost anywhere unless there is a security line that is monitored by certified law enforcement or security with metal detectors. I even carry openly in the courthouse annex now where pay property taxes and buy vehicle tags. But here is the rule interpretation for churches.

Quote:
Q: Can I carry to or at church?
A:*No,*unless the church has a policy of allowing carry in their individual church.**HB60*modified church carry so if you are caught carrying a weapon in a church that does not allow carry, you will be ticketed and fined up to $100.* You will also be subject to losing your GWL for up to 5 years.* You may have a weapon in your car in the parking lot with a valid Georgia Weapons License which has been legal since*SB308*was signed into law on June 4, 2010.
So unless church has a declared open carry policy in writing cannot carry in church. The $100 fine is almost laughable, no jail time is called for but losing my carry license for five years or more is serious. No matter how many times asked pastor or staff about our church carry policy got the two step shuffle response. One way around this is certified law enforcement can carry and certified armed security guards which carry what is called a Blue Card in Georgia but the church has to register with Secretary of State as a security organization. Meanwhile I kept asking for funding to Blue Card the civilian staff and was told it would be available in January on the 2017 budget as was too late in 2016 to allocate funds. Pastor was coming to security team meetings, telling us doing a great job and we dealt with active sex preditors, active shooter situation and possibe shooters. One shooter situation taken off campus was played out off campus later because perp was not prosecuted as had not fired a shot and was a cop. My research has shown a large percentage of church violence is done by disgruntled cops. Like pastors and doctors, some cops are sketchy.

Just before the holidays about the time knew terms of our new insurance policy was to go in effect "weapons free campus" signs went up everywhere. Began to question pastor and administrative staff but got double talk. Decided to see it through the holiday season then see what happened in January. First security team meeting of the new year has eleven civilians on team, three law enforcement and four law enforcement that worked as reserve or fill in when we had low turn out of team. Basically I guilted a State Patrolman, GBI officer, a Federal Flight Deck Officer (Sky Cop), local and out of county officers to help when civilians had life circumstances that prevented them from showing up plus all carried every service and we put everyone with permission to carry in same room multiple times for facial recognition.

First security team meeting of January senior pastor showed up and during my PowerPoint when came to section on Georgia Blue Cards and the training all civilian security would be required to undergo. Pastor stood up and said staff had decided not to do Blue Card training we would proceed as been doing. My radar started pegging meter and next morning hit pastor with emails saying if no Blue Cards then needed something in writing giving each civilian security, including myself, permission to carry weapons on campus. I was in armor with three 1911's and a 6.8 spc II AR stashed under the sound board and we were abut to put three or four weapons lockers that would have rifles stationed around church like fire extinguishers so each security guy had key. Last thing I wanted is to go up against a couple of dedicated shooters with rifles and team in sport coats and most with mid size compact 9mm type handguns.

For four days I hammered the pastor with emails, texts, phone calls and face to face discussion. Could not get anything in writing only verbal permission to proceed. Said if no written document would stand down and the civilians on team I had recruited. He freaked but said he could not put in writing due to insurance concerns. That's when I figured out our church had "opted out" officially. Turns out it saved them almost $10,000 per year on insurance and an insurance policy for private security team was just as expensive. Gave pastor one last option, give me a signed letter naming guys in team and had permission to carry. He would bury one copy in his files and I would bury the other in mine and we would shut up about it. He refused and next day informed team of our dilemma and resigned as head of security after 12 years at that church. Oddly Sunday morning at 8:09 sent texts to two guys who chose to keep doing the job due to family in church to be on alert. Have developed a pattern/algorythm on church violence and my model said U.S. was overdue.

Have spent years taking classes from experts, actually running a large security team and researching subject non stop. Secured the URL www.ChurchSecuritySystems.com with plans to put up guides based on individual state law starting with GA, NC and TX as heavy attendee Bible belt states. GA and TX have some of the most restrictive laws on church carry unless a church officially "opts in" which slams their insurance rates. Hoping insurance companies might realize having vetted CCW holders armed at church will reduce fatalities instead of punishing churches. Now visiting new churches. Sent emails to staff at 15 local churches asking if had "opt in" positive CCW policies. Eight replied please come visit and bring your gun, three replied no guns and four did not reply. So now visiting the eight in my list and already been asked by four if would organize a security team like ran at previous church but honestly tired of church politics.

Church I left a pastor was fired for not complying with my policies, Praise Team hammered constantly for violating security policy and had gone through a tough readjustment period to secure church with some families leaving over the guy with dark glasses, armor and guns being "intemidating" and made them nervous. I actually made myself and our uniforms primary targets for a shooter so as came after us would give our guys nobody noticed time and room to work. Hard to hide rifle rated armor under a sport coat along with three 1911's though bought three jackets three sizes too big. To most I looked like weighed 200 pounds but to anyone paying attention was a moving tank willing to be first person shooter who had cased the church to engage. As head of security felt it was my job to portray the target if a prepped shooter came in the building as had to come through me to get at the flock.

If your on a church security team check your state laws and ask questions. While I wish I was still working 25 to 30 hours a week protecting my church family if administration won't do whats required to allow us to work legally, not giving up my CCW and taking the brunt of Civil Court lawsuits on myself for operating an illegal security team. For you standing the line in your church "God Speed" and be alert. I sat and background checked over 1,000 members on roles. Found over a dozen convicted sex predators and two dozen domestic abusers. Don't go by looks or how active your people are, learn their secrets and circle of non church friends. It's a big job. In a decade we had three people come in with killing on their heart and lots of child abusers. All were removed quickly by being very proactive till staff decided other projects or their salaries were more important than financial backing of security team. And no, don't ask church name, never posted it here.
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Old November 07, 2017, 21:39   #45
Gary Harwell
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One of my uncles in San Antonio was known as the "Pistol Packin Padre"
He was a rough cowboy catholic priest in the 30's. One of his parsihoners gave him a 38 to pack when he cleared bars on Saturday nights, and made rounds on the Westside. In a few years he had won a rough part of SA. He always carried on the pulpit.
Ironically he was born in Las Gallinas just down the road of this shooting. He's looking down smiling at all the wannabe/ needtobe pistol packing padres.
Nothing new in protecting yourself everywhere you go.
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Old November 08, 2017, 07:41   #46
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Our pastor packs but carries a tiny "get off me pistol" and I was in process of building a handgun resistant pulpit with disguised firing ports and lock box in base to keep his 10mm. Just kneel, grab the big gun, stick throught hole and go to work from behind real cover. He has been "deputized" as local Sheriff's Department Chaplain. He is covered legally but left rest of civilians hanging to save budget in a church that pays $3,500 for a single services set, six figure soundboard and replaces every few years as outdated and $50,000 for a single youth concert to get known Christian rock band in the house. I didn't think $10k per year was a big expense for church with 27 salaried members on staff. Not counting other campuses. Big church or small, easiest way is "opt in", not make an official announcement but give permission to people of known character and skills to carry. Some guys would just be spraying santuary with more bullets if world went sideways. Females are often your best assets, better internal radar, not glancing at short skirts and can train to shoot without self developed bad habits unless their husbands have ruined them.

One 4th of July fell on a Wednesday night thus no services and church had a group of people decide to gather on farm and have a day of shooting and eating. Over twenty folk and 15 minutes after range went hot put my guns up except instructional firearms, spent rest of day as overly aggressive range officer to try and keep anyone from getting killed. Had about six people (mostly women with little experience and 38's with light wadcutters) at 25 ft line shooting and one man slipped up from about 25 yards (50 feet behind us) did a mag dump with AR 15 sending 30 rounds flying by us into target one station left to a mother of three kids. At 25 yards he had about 20 rounds on paper and no idea where the other 10 went. I was stunned. Most of the people were wanting to join security team. Found two trainable females that worked in nursery and elementary pods that were open to instruction, learning how to actually shoot and engage an armed perp. Got them tuned in private sessions but never put on team as didn't want guns in youth pods till we were certified and insured. We had man posted at every door to children's area and a cop in youth sanctuary. Otherwise no guns around kids.

Have visited and consulted with full time paid security directors at other large churches, some same size as ours with six figure budgets. One on Southside of Atlanta has mix of uniforms and guys in suits with armor, concealed carry but earpieces for radios and microphones in cuff of jacket. Four spaced on front row, four on back row and eight spaced in middle. Uniforms at all interior doors and uniforms manning metal detectors at all entry doors. Church was tight as a drum and still two shooting events at informal off campus events where security could not be or mid week small group meetings where security not informed. I worked batteries there which was odd to draw them when had been analyzing their security over a year. To get in administrative offices on weekday had to go through metal detector line where in locked glass box till cleared. Sign in as contractor and escorted through facility every moment by armed guard. I liked it and where wife and I will do Christmas Service. Have to call ahead to get my gun cleared but director and I met at enough training and in his office says if want to join team will put on paid staff if want. Southside and live 90 minutes Northside not interested. Have plenty of downtown facilities maintenance jobs offered if want a "real" job.

Before a couple a state law changes churches were same as any building for CCW so our model was legal. It's when they opened up expanded carry laws in Georgia they tightened church regulations due to recent active shooter events around the county. It makes it hard for small churches on tight budgets to operate a security team. Hoping we can get state legislative branch to see that and give churches more leeway for in-house security without state licensed armed security guards or law enforcement. Some small churches the pastor does not even draw a salary. They can't go five figures into insuring a few deacons to carry. My father was deacon at his church my entire life, he had all deacons get a Georgia GWL/CCW and then I trained them quarterly. Thus all deacons were armed as voted into church covenants. The background check and vetting to become a deacon was much more intense than background checks used at my old church. I was not background checked till after several years and at my insistence as felt head of security needed a background check but pastor didn't want to even spend the money to background check me.

I think most pastors should be armed and trained as often primary target. Should be part of Seminary training. There is a class at many seminaries now on term called "evangelically speaking" it refers to how to tell partial truth to protect people's feelings and church reputation without telling whole truth. When break it down its a class on how to lie and not feel guilty about it as not hurting any feelings.
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Old November 11, 2017, 12:41   #47
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Highlights excerpted.

Welcoming Worshipers With Open Arms and Concealed Ones, Too

Before the church massacre in Sutherland Springs, Tex., there was the church massacre in Charleston, S.C. It was enough to make the Rev. John Darsey think that his young Georgia church needed a security plan — one that involved defenders with firearms.
So his church, Redeemer Church of Madison, hired three uniformed sheriff’s deputies for each Sunday service, one directing traffic, one in the parking lot, and one right by the door.

This is the visible deterrent — the first line of defense.
The second, more subtle layer is an in-house security team of church members with military or law enforcement backgrounds, all carrying concealed weapons. Inside the spare, spacious modern sanctuary — where some 500 people come every Sunday morning — the team members split the room into quadrants, with one always keeping a bird’s-eye view from the back of the room, on the riser with the sound and lighting equipment.
The third layer of protection is one that Mr. Darsey knows is there, though he has trouble quantifying it. He estimated that about 20 to 25 of his flock were concealing a weapon on any given Sunday. “Now that’s just the ones I know about,” he said.

*
Just as important, many clergy members say that the very mission of houses of worship leaves them conflicted over imposing security measures. A church, temple or mosque should be a welcoming place, they say, with doors kept wide open to strangers and those who are hurting.
Many say they have ministered to people in all kinds of crises — homelessness, drug addiction, domestic abuse, or trouble with the law — without being sure whether they are intent on harm.

*

Church Executive magazine recently suggested that church leaders invite local police officers to stop by and use the restrooms or meeting rooms, in order to acquaint them with the church’s layout and leadership before an emergency arises.

*

Texas law allows houses of worship to bar firearms, and many do, posting signs saying that carrying guns onto the property is prohibited. The United Methodist Church adopted a resolution suggesting that churches post such signs in 2016, part of a larger statement on ending gun violence. Mormon Church policy says that carrying firearms is “inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.”

All week, since the massacre in the pews in Sutherland Springs, the Rev. Brady Martin said that members of his church, Temple Baptist Church, in Gainesville, Tex., have been coming to his office to discuss how to protect the church while still being welcoming. One asked whether the sign posted out front announcing that the church doesn’t allow the open carrying of firearms — showing a gun with a slash through it — could actually be sending the message that the church is vulnerable.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/10/u...-security.html
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Old November 13, 2017, 06:50   #48
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Georgia has the most liberal carry laws of about any state. I can carry in the local courthouse but not in a church if have "no weapons" signs. Our church installed such and in process made the security team an illegal operation and would not get us certified as armed security guards so I left after twelve years. Out of fifteen churches have emailed blind, eight have replied saying it's o.k. for me to carry on their campus. Have had four no replies and three outright "no weapons". Had a church email me asking if would test their system which is similar to one mentioned above. Got past uniforms but one of the volunteer guys asked me if could "talk" as a second and uniform showed up just before I entered balcony door. Showed them letter from pastor and lead elder which they confirmed. Had my thinnest level 2a vest with Dyneema plates, single 1911 and pocket 380. Guy was paying attention as have tailored jackets that make it darn near impossible to detect if carrying unless wearing fat armor and large load out of guns and ammo. Going to install some ballistic barriers for them before Christmas.

All churches need to get serious but church I left is flirting with RICCO Act running an illegal team purposely. I refused to lead a team if church didn't follow new Georgia laws. If "opt out" then nobody but certified law enforcement can carry, not just guys pastor clears verbally. He told me was o.k. but would not put in writing. That's conspiracy. Have six pages started in six days on new website. Will try to fatten up daily with decades worth of research and experience in church security. www.ChurchSecuritySystems.com Would appreciate information can use and input. Going to start in on Georgia law aspects tomorrow and need help form people who understand the laws in other states as apply to securing churches.
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A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
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Last edited by hueyville; November 13, 2017 at 06:55.
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Old December 06, 2017, 12:42   #49
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Need people to visit my site, review and comment. Especially check out the new section launched today on Georgia Volunteer Security Law. Have a lawyer on hook to help with Georgia and trying to find them in other states. First thing they ask is about hit count as promising links on pages they author.

Telling them truth, it's new, unadvertised, still under development and a sub-domain of personal site but once have enough content plan to get real Web person to fix it so looks slick and put on dedicated server. Just posted two of several email replis from GA lawyer for now till he can get his content put together. If anyone wants to help this is a totally free gig that am paying all costs out of my pocket as an Offering to the Lord that hopefully will keep a few sheep safer over the coming years.

Need feedback, comments, additional content and all the help I can get. Link is in post above this. Believe can do more with my decades of experience than protect one room or facility by going onine with what I have learned.
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A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
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Old December 07, 2017, 18:46   #50
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someone just walked into the high school at Aztec New Mexico and killed two students. Looks like they didn't have any kind of plan. None of the schools around here have armed guards that I'm aware of. stupid is as stupid does but unfortunately somebody has to pay the price. I have been there several times. Two families are grieving tonight because the people in charge refuse to protect their kids.
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