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Old August 08, 2010, 12:51   #151
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Lee,
I think I'm saying the same thing as you and Def90. I thought someone was suggesting that the Germans were using a grenade launcher that required them to remove the Belgian Long flashider. Please do post the pictures as any documentation on here is great! Unfortunately Stevens book is very lacking in information on these. There is much much more info on this website than in Stevens' book.
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Old August 08, 2010, 13:03   #152
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Replacement parts,over time, have been installed on that "af". Not only the sights but some smaller parts too,there is a backwards "3" on the BHO, it's "number in a box" stamp dates it at 1973. The rifle still resides in a BPOL (Bundespolizei) armory in Rheinland-Pfalz, as far as I know.
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Old August 08, 2010, 13:30   #153
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BGS Fals

I agree with Falcon totally, I was just going to post the same and then refeshnened the screen to see a fourth page. Stevens book gives the basics and early history along with Mr. Jean Van Rutten. Plus the publications dates of 1981 Paper bound and hard bound 1989, Most of Stevens info is over 29 years old now and with the internet were finding out a lot of info that was never seen before. The quest continues.
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Old August 08, 2010, 13:34   #154
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Lee, is there anything you don't know about FALs? KIT and yourself are truly amazing at the knowledge you both possess. Not to mention several others on this Forum also quite knowledgeable in this area. My hat is off to all of you for the learning experience I get every time loggin in. Thank You
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Old August 08, 2010, 13:44   #155
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Here is a pic of one of the rifles these kits came from .Note the bipod cut ,open ear block and a lug that is not a traditional G1 lug .These are a bbl type we have never seen on the market .Also note that the bipod is a regular bipod.This is a pic that Apex took before the de millThanks EX1
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Old August 08, 2010, 13:57   #156
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Thanks EX1!! That's just what I was looking for....now I'm about to cry as these entire rifles 'should' be legal to import....
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Old August 08, 2010, 15:03   #157
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Now another set of questions.. The 2 new kits I got have the bipod plungers with rollers while the other standard G1 kit I got a couple months ago just have the rounded metal pieces for the plungers. Was this also a BGS vs. G1 change or was this something that just changed at a certain point in time. Also the flash hiders on these 2 kits have larger muzzle openings than another Browning style flash hider that I have. Similar to the difference between a Canadian Flash hider and a Brit/Aussie flash hider.
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Old August 08, 2010, 15:04   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bigger_Is_Better
Thanks EX1!! That's just what I was looking for....now I'm about to cry as these entire rifles 'should' be legal to import....
I think I would commit harey carey if I was forced to cut those things up..
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Old August 08, 2010, 15:46   #159
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Bit the bullet and ordered. Hope my luck is as good as everyone elses.
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Old August 08, 2010, 16:17   #160
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Fal Info sharing

Jimmbob, Thanks for the kind words. Thiers people here like EX-1, L/FN, Kit, Falcon, Moses and others that know more about the internals and markings of Fals than I knew about. I've had the past pleasure of working for the US Government and dealing with Foreign Governments and also knowing some of the International Arms Brokers of the world current and past and some of the players in the US and foreign markets that were importers for the USA markets and being able to talk at lenght with these people that have imported some of the weapons we all have and enjoy. Especially Dave Selvaggio the owner of DSA for his commitment to resurrect the Fal in the USA and try and continue to keep it going, That in itself can take a lot out of a person on a daily basis. My hat is off to all those that have shared their knowledge with me and others here that we all enjoy.
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Old August 08, 2010, 16:38   #161
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Good luck, rickffp! I wait with bated breath as well.

The information presented here is simply astounding and I just hope I can do these rifles justice whenever I do decide to have them built back up.

It's a pity no one makes an early-style Type 1 receiver that would be 100% correct for these kits. I know demand probably wouldn't be the greatest, but I think I'd be willing to spend a little more (within reason) for something like that.

What kind of finish would be correct for such a receiver? I think I read early FALs sported high-gloss bluing?

I see Entreprise offers custom S/Ns so the lower and upper would match. Does DSA and Coonan also offer this?

I think DSA, Entreprise, and Coonan are all that's available in regards to FAL receivers?
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Old August 08, 2010, 17:23   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wolfsburg1
I see Entreprise offers custom S/Ns so the lower and upper would match. Does DSA and Coonan also offer this?
IIRC DSA will not do custom s/n. Coonan has in the past....dunno if they still are.
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Old August 08, 2010, 17:39   #163
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Yes Coonan still does custom S/N. They mentioned this fact Friday when we were speaking..

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Old August 08, 2010, 17:50   #164
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A custom serial number on a Type III receiver would kind of be a waste on these kits. Nothing says Late Pattern FAL more than a type III.

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Old August 08, 2010, 18:05   #165
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Bit the bullet and ordered. Hope my luck is as good as everyone elses.
The suspense is killing me too.
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Old August 08, 2010, 18:13   #166
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Me too, hope to get shipping confirmation tomorrow
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Old August 08, 2010, 18:55   #167
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Maybe Coonan will offer a Type I at some point?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bigger_Is_Better
A custom serial number on a Type III receiver would kind of be a waste on these kits. Nothing says Late Pattern FAL more than a type III.

Aaron
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Old August 08, 2010, 18:59   #168
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That used to be all they made. The only reason I can think that they went to a Type III was that Imbels are about the only kits around anymore.

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Old August 08, 2010, 19:44   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bigger_Is_Better
That used to be all they made. The only reason I can think that they went to a Type III was that Imbels are about the only kits around anymore.

Aaron
Type 3's also have fewer machining cuts so i am sure they are quite a bit cheaper and easier to make.
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Old August 08, 2010, 20:12   #170
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Oh my... My stomach hurts.
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Old August 08, 2010, 21:58   #171
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I have been working on a translation of the German BGS FAL Manual that Falcon posted years back. In doing so, it appears to me that the description of each BGS FAL pattern is not perfectly clear, particularly because they have used slightly different terms for the same components in different places. It's not too hard to sort out, except for one confusing thing: The type af flash hider used on the Model-af

It clearly states the Model-af has a " Mündungsfeuerdämpfer, aufgesteckt", or a flash hider that is put on, presumabley by hand like a bayonet, like the later G1 style. This is clearly written, and in clear contrast to the BGS Model-a and Model-b, which have "Mündungsfeuerdampfer, aufgeschraubt" or "screwed on flash hider". So as written, the same terms are used to mean the type-a and Model-b have "screwed" on flash hiders. And, the Model-af and Model-c (G1 style) have bayonet mount flash hiders.

The best I can make of this is just a guess, and that guess is that there is no special mystery bayonet mount flash hider for the Model-af, but rather they actually mean the combo bayonet/flash hider is used. The other option is that they mean that a screwed on flash hider was installed at a later date, but that is in contrast to using the same terminology for the Model-c or G1.

I wasn't going to release this yet, but since we in in the midst of another BGS kit hysteria, here is my draft translation. I'm tellin you though, it doesn't make complete sense:

;

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Old August 08, 2010, 22:26   #172
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Here are 2 more photos of the uncut version that Apex posted:



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Old August 08, 2010, 23:29   #173
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Man, that is a crying shame they had to be cut up, but if they hadn't, I suppose we would've never had a chance at them. How often do BGS FAL kits pop up on the market? When was the last time?
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Old August 08, 2010, 23:51   #174
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Quote:
Originally posted by Falfegnügen
I have been working on a translation of the German BGS FAL Manual that Falcon posted years back. In doing so, it appears to me that the description of each BGS FAL pattern is not perfectly clear, particularly because they have used slightly different terms for the same components in different places. It's not too hard to sort out, except for one confusing thing: The type af flash hider used on the Model-af

It clearly states the Model-af has a " Mündungsfeuerdämpfer, aufgesteckt", or a flash hider that is put on, presumabley by hand like a bayonet, like the later G1 style. This is clearly written, and in clear contrast to the BGS Model-a and Model-b, which have "Mündungsfeuerdampfer, aufgeschraubt" or "screwed on flash hider". So as written, the same terms are used to mean the type-a and Model-b have "screwed" on flash hiders. And, the Model-af and Model-c (G1 style) have bayonet mount flash hiders.

The best I can make of this is just a guess, and that guess is that there is no special mystery bayonet mount flash hider for the Model-af, but rather they actually mean the combo bayonet/flash hider is used. The other option is that they mean that a screwed on flash hider was installed at a later date, but that is in contrast to using the same terminology for the Model-c or G1.

I wasn't going to release this yet, but since we in in the midst of another BGS kit hysteria, here is my draft translation. I'm tellin you though, it doesn't make complete sense:

;






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Old August 09, 2010, 00:17   #175
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ok...i have an Argy,open ear, non-bipod cut, lugged, non-threaded barrel....if i replace the gas block and thread the barrel for the browning flash hider, this would be correct (enough) for the FAL Canada "a" version or the "b" version...correct?
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Old August 09, 2010, 02:24   #176
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The barrels in those pictures from Apex look like they are bipod cut, with a lug. Did just the af model use the clamshell bipod?

So if those barrels were original equipment on the model b's here is the big question- did any other countries have bipod cut lugged barrels? And if so, were any lucky enough to be imported in decent shape?
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Old August 09, 2010, 07:03   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by Falfegnügen
[B]I have been working on a translation of the German BGS FAL Manual that Falcon posted years back. In doing so, it appears to me that the description of each BGS FAL pattern is not perfectly clear, particularly because they have used slightly different terms for the same components in different places. It's not too hard to sort out, except for one confusing thing: The type af flash hider used on the Model-af

It clearly states the Model-af has a " Mündungsfeuerdämpfer, aufgesteckt", or a flash hider that is put on, presumabley by hand like a bayonet, like the later G1 style. This is clearly written, and in clear contrast to the BGS Model-a and Model-b, which have "Mündungsfeuerdampfer, aufgeschraubt" or "screwed on flash hider". So as written, the same terms are used to mean the type-a and Model-b have "screwed" on flash hiders. And, the Model-af and Model-c (G1 style) have bayonet mount flash hiders.

The best I can make of this is just a guess, and that guess is that there is no special mystery bayonet mount flash hider for the Model-af, but rather they actually mean the combo bayonet/flash hider is used. The other option is that they mean that a screwed on flash hider was installed at a later date, but that is in contrast to using the same terminology for the Model-c or G1.

I wasn't going to release this yet, but since we in in the midst of another BGS kit hysteria, here is my draft translation. I'm tellin you though, it doesn't make complete sense:
Falfegnügen, nice job of taking the time to translate the text.
Not all written translations tend to come out correctly in English and it is the same as processing a spoken foreign language to English. Some words seemingly do not translate to English clearly, the comprehention of train of thought usually relays the message.

In the translated text the A model is stated as having a "...grooved metal stock...". I think we will all agree this is not correct.
I believe Metall Schaft Traqeqriff correctly translates to: "Metal shank carrying handle".

Also with the AF model: Aufgesteckt means "attached" and screw-on would be: An geschraubt.
Its not easy I know, but I do believe with your help and the help of several of the members here we have a fairly good idea what the difference is between the BGS models.

Keep up the great work as it helps all of us.
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Old August 09, 2010, 07:30   #178
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Part of POGO's text in referrence to the AF model:

"With FN-rifles with the manufacturing characters " af" the bipod is put on from the front on the sight and bolted with a nut."
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Old August 09, 2010, 08:17   #179
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AF/B Models

embatp, Your conversion of the Argy barrel will work, You'll just have to also slot the top of the barrel where the back of the Browning Flash Hider ends as that screw that goes through the top of the flash Hider at the back top end has a circlier donut that will drop into the slot between the screw holes that has to be cut to keep the Flash Hider from unscrewing during the firing sequence.
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Old August 09, 2010, 09:01   #180
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Quote:
Originally posted by Holescreek
[B]Here are 2 more photos of the uncut version that Apex posted:
At least someone will have a nice photo of what their kit used to look like...
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Old August 09, 2010, 09:55   #181
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Re: AF/B Models

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee Carpentieri
embatp, Your conversion of the Argy barrel will work, You'll just have to also slot the top of the barrel where the back of the Browning Flash Hider ends as that screw that goes through the top of the flash Hider at the back top end has a circlier donut that will drop into the slot between the screw holes that has to be cut to keep the Flash Hider from unscrewing during the firing sequence.
Lee what is the best way of making the key cut on the barrel if you do not have access to a milling type machine?
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Old August 09, 2010, 10:16   #182
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FWIW,here is a very good German/English dictionary for technical terms:

http://dict.leo.org/
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Old August 09, 2010, 10:56   #183
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"Early G-1 Kits OFF the market again"

8:40 AM PST , speaking with nice lady concerning my order. During my call she was informed the Kits were just now pulled from their website. Sounded like they may possibly have a few kits left after sorting out all the weekend orders, maybe.
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Old August 09, 2010, 10:57   #184
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I was just about to post this! Cross our fingers for more...
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Old August 09, 2010, 11:24   #185
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I was just about to buy one too.
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Old August 09, 2010, 11:28   #186
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Well I'm suppose to get my kit on the 12th but the second one I ordered Friday might be a little iffy if they can fill the order. She thinks I will but wont know until I receive shipping confirmation.Just got a e-mail saying my order was being processed maybe I'm ok.

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Old August 09, 2010, 11:38   #187
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Now where do you suppose 200 kits have gone in about a week?

Next week they will likely be on GB and the Market Place for $800.
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Old August 09, 2010, 11:50   #188
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Barrel threading /Keyway cuts

DakTo and others, Without using a dremel and hacking away, I know that Pat Jones had setup his mill for the keyway slot cut on the L1A1 barrels he was using. I asked DSA about making these barrels and offering to install customer supplied gas blocks and doing the keyway cut and barrel threading, But haven't heard back from DSA yet. I wonder if Mountainman could offer this service.
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Old August 09, 2010, 12:03   #189
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I am sure some company bought them all up, and we will see them relisted for double the money..

Lucky I ordered one last week..
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Old August 09, 2010, 12:04   #190
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Quote:
Originally posted by DakTo
Now where do you suppose 200 kits have gone in about a week?

Next week they will likely be on GB and the Market Place for $800.
Yeah, that's kinda weird. I asked her about their inventory and she stated " we've got enough for almost a month depending on how fast they get bought up" then immediately said "I was just informed they were pulled off the website because of all the weekend orders". Hopefully if they are indeed NOT sold out they will honor all orders made before they pulled the ad, one would think! They seem to have a pretty darn good reputation (so far).

Fingers are crossed
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Old August 09, 2010, 12:07   #191
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Jim, Last week, I was told the same, and they were only 1/4 way through the inventory.
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Old August 09, 2010, 12:07   #192
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Quote:
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Yeah, that's kinda weird. I asked her about their inventory and she stated " we've got enough for almost a month depending on how fast they get bought up" then immediately said "I was just informed they were pulled off the website because of all the weekend orders".

Fingers are crossed
Someone enterprising probably dropped some coin and bought them all. Be cool if DSA bought 100 and made a custom #'d receiver, barrel etc.
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Old August 09, 2010, 12:13   #193
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And it would be priced way out of the ball park too....

Not good...
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Old August 09, 2010, 12:20   #194
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i have ups delivery confirmation for mine so i should be good to go....

as far as the keyway cut, moses did mine for an L1A1 kit, i am sure he could do it for this as well....
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Old August 09, 2010, 12:21   #195
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Originally posted by Brasshound
And it would be priced way out of the ball park too....

Not good...
...and I would probably pay it. These kits are $2k gun when done correctly.
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Old August 09, 2010, 12:31   #196
Lee Carpentieri
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Apex orders

I just spoke to the nice Lady at Apex and she said my order should ship in two days. They do Gunshows on the weekends and are playing catch up on orders called in and on line sales. Ordered my kits on the fourth of this month, Can't wait to see what I get.
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Old August 09, 2010, 12:49   #197
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Quote:
Originally posted by nwobhm


...and I would probably pay it. These kits are $2k gun when done correctly.
Wow, you sure flip flopped on these... Your original post was...


Quote:
Originally posted by nwobhm

I get a feeling the entire lot of the guns came to the US in the way of cut barrel kits. Seems like they turn up more than they should. By the time you figure the correct stock is an additional $300 + incorrect barrel is $200-$300 and the flash suppressors are trashed so add another $50. Seems more like a $$$ pit that's better off parted into shooters. Otherwise it winds up being a 3/4 match $2,000 kit gun.

$250kit
$300Stock
$250barrel
$50 FS
$400receiver
$125922r
$100Shipping

Total=$1,475

Factor in refinish and build cost and it hits $2k.

Much better buys out there on premium quality parts sets.
I am new here, so maybe I just am not used to these kinds of posts..

Brasshound..
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Old August 09, 2010, 13:11   #198
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I will inquire about the T1 on Monday when they call me..
Asked about the T1..
No plans at this time.. They seem to get a lot of calls for them though...

Just passing on the info.
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Old August 09, 2010, 14:34   #199
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I can't imagine how anyone could think that 200 kits would last through the weekend. They're cheaper than Imbel kits(but without barrels)and they're 1000x rarer, not to mention the historical interest. I'll bet if you read back through these 4 pages you'll see that 100 kits are right here, and several of these posts are from first time posters coming in from other boards. The feeding frenzy might be a little more active here, but there's a whole 'nother world of kit builders out there.
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Old August 09, 2010, 15:01   #200
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Apex is out of stock and back ordered on BGS kits at this time.

They sold out over the weekend.
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