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Old May 13, 2019, 16:08   #1
Walther Rathenau
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Buying a Winchester 63

I'm interested in Winchester 63's. Is there a difference in value between different dates, besides the ones with scope mounts? I've seen some early ones that have really nice, crisp lines.

How do I spot rebluing and sanding? I suppose it has to do with how consistent Winchester was with their bluing and also with the wood to metal detail.

I'm interested in this one, but the bluing looks too dark.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/813464530

This one looks like the stock was sanded. You can see the rear tang protruding, and maybe the buttplate.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/813131939
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Old May 13, 2019, 23:57   #2
toys
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Walther Rathenau View Post
I'm interested in Winchester 63's. Is there a difference in value between different dates, besides the ones with scope mounts? I've seen some early ones that have really nice, crisp lines.

How do I spot rebluing and sanding? I suppose it has to do with how consistent Winchester was with their bluing and also with the wood to metal detail.

I'm interested in this one, but the bluing looks too dark.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/813464530

This one looks like the stock was sanded. You can see the rear tang protruding, and maybe the buttplate.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/813131939
ive always want one of those sweet semis...

but on the photos of the top one not sure if its dark because of lack of using the flash. Try taking photos of a black gun using a point n shoot or your phone. Really hard.

But to me the barrel on the top one looks longer. I havent done any research on them since i never go to the point of buying one, but im sure they made various barrel lengths.

Usually on if a gun is reblued at least way back then, you need to remove the OEM bluing first and iirc, it was done by hand. So you would see the roll marks become shallow and the edges not so sharp on the lettering depending on how and if they weren't careful. Also if not done right, like using a brush or sand paper, you would loose any sharp corners.

But to me, both of them imo dont look like they have been refinish at least on the metal.

The bottom one imo look more original and gently used. It shows wear, but imo and what i call "honest wear" not "rode hard and put up wet" or abused. You need to remember back then that guns were bought to put food on the table and that they were not seen as "collectors" tings since free money wasnt that easily found.

also depending on what you endgame is may determine which one you buy.

To me, i dont mind buying a refinished gun if its done properly. Ive got a Marlin 39 and 39A*? that have been refinished. But you could tell it was a project of love due to the work and craftsmanship put into it. Everyone knows you never get your money and time out of project like that. I was just lucky to have the money and to appreciate the work and time the person put into it. Someone else may think i was crazy to pay what i did back then, but they are mine now and wont be leaving too soon. One of the Marlins has a round barrel and you can definitely tell soem of the metal has been removed due to the shallow roll marks, but he mentioned that there was alot of surface rust and he wanted to remove as much if not all so it wouldnt be an issue. sometimes if they have the time & money, they could get someone to re-make the stamps, and restamp the lettering, but that can be tricky too.

I look at the overall gun and make a decision. You may want to nitpick or be more concerned about specific aspects of the toy and thats up to you. After all it will be YOUR gun, not mine or anyone else.

as far as the stock goes, you need to know that the older ones arent so heavily lacured/coated like the Japan browing/winchesters.

but at the minimum figure out what your endgame is and go from there.
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Old May 14, 2019, 09:59   #3
Walther Rathenau
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Seeking advice on the top one especially. I will probably move over to gunboards, but am afraid I might stir up competition there.
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Old May 14, 2019, 10:00   #4
Walther Rathenau
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Maybe the darkness is due to using a white background.
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Old May 14, 2019, 10:06   #5
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Good rifles. Winchester made 174,692 made of this model. The first 9800 were made with a 20" barrel. The rest were made with a 23" barrel and a different stock.

Are you a collector or shooter? The deluxe and standard M 63's made by Miroku for Winchester in the 90's are nice rifles, but not kosher as a genuine Winchester for some.
Considerably cheaper however and reportedly more accurate.

I'd be happy with either, but am still pretty tickled by my recent nice 1950 Marlin 39A.
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Old May 14, 2019, 10:28   #6
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btw:

Quote;
"I'm interested in this one, but the bluing looks too dark.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/813464530"

Just my opinion, but that one looks damn nice to me. Believe the seller spiffed it up a bit by oiling the metal and maybe polishing the stock. It looks original and exceptionally well cared for, as my aforementioned Marlin 39A was.

As I said, JUST MY OPINION. OK?
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Old May 14, 2019, 10:36   #7
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Id be real careful buying one represented as NIB. I know of an individual who would refinish these and 62s and went as far as having hang tags reproduced to
further misrepresent their origin. I sold one that I had inherited that had the scope mount holes drilled in it( not the greatest job Ive ever seen). It was used to hunt and it showed honest wear. I finally realized Id have to live it as is or pony up a bunch of money to have it restored properly. I opted to walk away from it and sold it. Now I sort of regret it. Good luck but be real careful, there are some good honest guns out there but there are a bunch of spiffed up fakes too.
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Old May 14, 2019, 15:19   #8
Walther Rathenau
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Mainer: Good data. My first one will most certainly be a shooter, but I do think the nice ones are a good investment. Maybe even at the $950 they are fetching now? I don't think a Miroku would have enough charm.

I'm leaning towards thinking this one is original, with the wood sanded or buffed. The reason is because it looks a lot like this one: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/813564862

Tferron: There certainly is some money in doing what you are describing.
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Old May 15, 2019, 16:44   #9
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Originally Posted by Walther Rathenau View Post
Mainer: Good data. My first one will most certainly be a shooter, but I do think the nice ones are a good investment. Maybe even at the $950 they are fetching now? I don't think a Miroku would have enough charm.

I'm leaning towards thinking this one is original, with the wood sanded or buffed. The reason is because it looks a lot like this one: https://www.gunbroker.com/item/813564862

Tferron: There certainly is some money in doing what you are describing.
Padwan,

what it comes down to is again, your endgame. If you want a "collector" then buy a "collector". If you want a "shooter" then buy a "shooter".

its not rocket science, but some people get the $$$ glasses on and think... too much $$ or they think in the future when and if they can sell it and hopefully make some $$ on it or they make it more difficult than it is.

If you buy a NIB or a really nice Collector then its up to you if you want to shoot it or not. As you may know that EVERY gun has been shot at the factor for testing. So you can split hairs if you want. but some may see it as "used" and "fired" so you may not get as much as you could. But again, it will depend a the buyer.

But if i want a "Shooter'" i will buy one. If i want a "collector" i will buy one. Again, not rocket science. If i decided to shoot that "collector" and i sell it, i will disclose i did so. But if i buy a "collector" as a second or 3rd or 4th or party, i have no idea if someone shot it and i will state that too.

You need to also know that there will always be collectors. Some may just collect and some may specialize in certain guns. The skys the limit on how you or others want to do things. I know of some collectors that will only collect the pumps and some will only collect the one model. again, the skys the limit.

heres a thought/comment. How many things can you buy and have your cake and eat it too? So if you buy a shooter you can play with it and if you take care of it you can probably still make money down the road. How much? You are gambling, and may as well ask for the winning lottery numbers.. And as you should know, there are way better investments out there. But again, how many can you play with?

here another thought/comment. You have to also remember that its not like anyone is cranking out them as they did the old ones. Yes, someone may make a modern version or try to make a copy, but it will still be the newer models. Just like the Colt SAAs. you have the prewar, 1st gen, 2nd gen and so forth. And then there will always be a limited about of them for sale or available. The longer you can wait, its most likely the better you can make out in the money department, but there are no guarantees either. Then you have places where they are offering people $$ or gift certificate on gun buy back, they could be stolen, lost in a fire and so forth. There is only a limited amout of them and then you have the fact that there will be up and coming collectors wanting that "starter" gun for their collection.

There are also people that feel that if they are not 100% functionally perfect, its just scrap. And then those that feel it you cant shoot it or play with it, why buy or have it. Again, everything under the sun.

When i bought my toys way back then, i bought them for FUN. was i concerned about making money. HELL no. i was looking at collecting them. I loved the research and the persuit of finding what i could and try to buy it. Once i was able to buy one, then i moved onto the next one. I began selling some of my toys now and i can say that i didnt do too bad. Again, there are better investments out there, but guess what? i was able to have my cake and eat it too. I was able to shoot and play with most of them and sell them and make some money. Also guess what. Not all of them were NIB or LNIB either and many of not most of them were used!

heres a last comment told to me by a collector, if thats the way you want to go.

"buy what you can afford at the time. Then upgrade along the way" If you want to sell or trade the lower grade version, go for it. But the above statement is how i did it. I never got to "upgrading" that much since there were way too many toys to get. But i knew that at the start.
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Old May 15, 2019, 19:28   #10
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They are very nice looking rifles,I had one back about 25 years ago .Very accurate and carry beautifully. Mine was the smooth top rifle,the later grooved top rifles for scope are more expensive hence more desirable.

Blueing and wood finish will be exactly like model 94 or 62A pump of same era.
They used nitrocellulose laquer on the wood and DU-LITE blueing salts.

IIRC I paid $450 for mine in 1993 and it was about 95% nice condition.
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Old May 15, 2019, 19:42   #11
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Originally Posted by Walther Rathenau View Post
Maybe the darkness is due to using a white background.
Yes, unless you know photography, or know someone who does, NEVER use a white background - the camera's light meter assumes there is more light - due to the white background - so makes adjustments which puts subject in shadow.

That being said, there is no obvious wallowing of the engraving from a buffing wheel and the wear is typical.

Bluing can be stripped with dilute acid and leave no wallowing, but it does appear more original 1960s blue than repo "black", which is probably what you meant by "too dark".

In person, smell the gun. Cold blue has a distinctive odor - a trick taught to me by P Laurence Shennum - Winchester collector author and my HS marine bio teacher and mentor (took me to my first gunshow!).
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Old May 15, 2019, 19:49   #12
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The key on Winchesters is to look for raised proof marks or slight raised edges to the barrel markings .If they are present its more than likely original. But not all rifle exibit the same marking detail. But..... the W/P proof mark is always applied after blueing so close look there will generally tell the tell.

Here is 1955 62A which the a 63 made in this time period will have same finish.



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Old May 15, 2019, 21:57   #13
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gotta love those 3' wide actual size photos on a computer monitor.

Geez! How freaking hard is it to resize? Even an 11x17 will fit on most monitors.
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Old May 15, 2019, 23:22   #14
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I have a 63 my dad gave me that his granddad gave to him when he was 8. I still have the 3/4 mossburg scope that was on it then. I love this rifle and taught my daughter to shoot with it. My bluing is almost non existent and wouldnt even consider refurbishing it. If you like the style and want a shooter have you considered the Taurus 63. Same rifle but half the cost. Not sure about quality but Ive never been displeased with any Taurus Ive owned or handled.
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Old May 16, 2019, 08:38   #15
Pat C.
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gotta love those 3' wide actual size photos on a computer monitor.

Geez! How freaking hard is it to resize? Even an 11x17 will fit on most monitors.

Its the software here, I have them hosted on other sights and they fit perfect. Imgur uses enlargement feature normally you have to click on the image to enlarge.That feature is not available on this forum so they only show in the enlarged state.

Work perfect on cell phone view though.
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