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Old March 19, 2017, 05:54   #1
Sagerider
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S&W M&P 10, disappointed :(, No more :)

So I took the M&P 10 out for a good work out today using three loads one of which was factory Remington all 150 grain FMJ with disappointing results.
I mounted a 4 to 14 power Nikon Buckmaster scope on it, other scope too long of a story and non relevant. Results were 6 inch groups at 130 yards, suckola!
This is the best I could get out of it. Sort of random all over effect.
Frustrated with blowing through ammo giving nothing useful I grabbed one of my Argy FALs and ran it through its paces. Two to three inch groups with typical Argy rear peep sight. The wind was kicking up pretty bad but it was from behind not a cross wind. As it got later it was blowing so bad I could not see the bullet holes on the targets from the spotting scope moving so much so I called it a done day.

What I noticed from my adventure is the Argy was pleasant to shoot, recoil pushing more than slamming like the M&P 10. Yep, the recoil of the M&P 10 was not very smooth or comfortable. Same ammo in both rifles. Other than the factory Remington my hand loads were (24 and 26 incorrect) was actually 44 and 46 grains of Winchester 748 with 150 grain FMJ bullets. Loads worked well in my FALs, my Springfield M1A Loaded model and my Garand. Sad that a rifle with a 14 power scope can be put to shame by an open sight rifle.

I have heard that the S&W likes heavier bullets so I will give that a try in the next couple of days. I have some 168 Sierra Match to run through it to see if there is any improvement. If not the thing has got to move on down the road, sucks but that is the way it goes. I don't need a rifle that requires taylored ammo to function as I expect a $1,400.00 Nikon scoped Timiney triggered rifle should. If I can't get better than 6 inch groups out of it on the market place it will go. Maybe I got a Lemon barrel?
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.

Last edited by Sagerider; April 07, 2017 at 11:55.
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Old March 19, 2017, 08:27   #2
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"Other than the factory Remington my hand loads were 24 and 26 grains of Winchester 748 with 150 grain FMJ bullets."

That may be a big part of your accuracy problem, but I assume you may have fumbled your keypad there.

Sorry to hear about your dismal M&P 10 results, got to be something seriously out of kilter with that rifle. Good luck finding it. The wrong bullets for the twist may be a factor, but 150 grainers should definitely do much better than what you've experienced.

A bum barrel may be your problem, I'd try removing any Muzzle device, checking the crown and test fire naked.
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Old March 19, 2017, 09:44   #3
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Maybe try another scope and mount along with some different ammo. Honestly while have over $10,000 worth of Nikon camera lenses not counting camera bodies have never been satisfied with their scopes. Bought two when first hit the market and both shook apart within the first 100 rounds on a battle rifle. Waited a couple years and tried again with two more, one on a bolt gun and other on a battle rifle. The bolt gun did o.k. till moved it from a 22 Hornet to see if would hold zero to a 7mm Practical which dislodged the reticle on third round. The one mounted on another battle rifle would wander the more it was shot, all were mounted properly in lapped rings. Was told their current generation seven scopes had improved from generation one and three.

Now have an untested generation 7 going to mount on an 18" 6.8 AR 15 and see if it holds up, it's Nikon last try for me if it fails. Never had a Leupold or Burris fail and the Vortex scopes been buying past 18 months are all holding up. What I like about Vortex is they are only company with lifetime warranty on electronics and why purchased their rangefinder to replace my Leupold as primary device. Every Smith M&P 15 have purchased, even their entry level slick sides have been ace high. Have three in vault right now that use and several still in box have put back to neckbeard someday.
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Old March 19, 2017, 10:45   #4
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Remington ammo is the problem, IMO.
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Old March 19, 2017, 18:04   #5
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The 46 (26 is incorrect) grain load of Win 748 was with 150 grain FMJ and the 44 (24 is incorrect) grain was with 147 grain dud tracers, the reason for 44 grain is to compensate for the longer bearing surface, the bullets are longer. The dud tracers were acquired super cheap when .308 bullets were getting hard to find a few years back. The FALs don't care and shoot them just fine. Both hand loads are with Lake City brass.

The first scope mounted was an ART scope then I changed it to the new never mounted Nikon. I have another mounted on a gopher blaster AR-15 and it is the Kat'z azz. The ART scope was not as clear to my old eyes so I swapped it out. The Nikon has the side mounted parallax adjustment and is clear and sharp.
I realize that 90% of shooting problems is the nut behind the rifle so I am keeping that fact at the front of the line.

I will put some of the Sierra 168 grain together tonight and will see how that goes next week. If anyone has any suggestions I am open. I will take a look at what scopes I have that I can swap. I do have a Leupold 3x9 on the shelf.

Pictures are of the setup for both the Argy and the M&P 10
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File Type: jpg IMG_3635.JPG (140.8 KB, 32 views)
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.

Last edited by Sagerider; March 19, 2017 at 21:07.
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Old March 19, 2017, 20:14   #6
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[QUOTE=Sagerider;4391965]The 26 grain load of Win 748 was with 150 grain FMJ and the 24 grain was with 147 grain dud tracers, the reason for 24 grain is to compensate for the longer bearing surface, the bullets are longer.

I will put some of the Sierra 168 grain together tonight and will see how that goes next week. If anyone has any suggestions I am open. I will take a look at what scopes I have that I can swap. I do have a Leupold 3x9 on the shelf./QUOTE]

Please don't tell me those loads cycle the actions on any of those rifles. If it does, I'm wasting about 20 grains of powder per cartridge as it takes somewhere around 45.0 grains of W 748 to make my FAL do the Happy Dance.

I use 46.2 grains of W 748 with a Sierra 165 gr bullet in Milsurp cases with a CCI primer that crono's 2650fps out of a 22" barrel. Works in a StG, but is a waste of expensive bullets unless I have a scope on so I can see what I'm shooting at.


My 168 gr Sierra MK load is 42.0 gr. of H4895 and 44.5 gr. of Rel. 15 in LC MATCH brass with Fed primers.
Just listing these loads as a guide, YMMV

As usual, should you or any of your rifles be captured or killed, the source will disavow any knowledge of your mission.
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Old March 19, 2017, 20:49   #7
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Like Mainer said, I thought you had mis-typed "2s" when you meant "4s".
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Old March 19, 2017, 21:01   #8
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Yep you are correct, sorry, 44 and 46 grains of Win 748.

I corrected my first and second posts. This is exactly why no one should use data posted on web sites without checking your reloading manuals first.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.

Last edited by Sagerider; March 19, 2017 at 21:09.
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Old March 20, 2017, 10:16   #9
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Would try ammo before changed scopes again. If sure rings are aligned and snug ammo most likely culprit. Would try a couple factory loadings as well. On your handloads consider a couple of three seating depths to see if sensitive to amount of freebore. If have a bullet comperator would measure distance from ogive to lands. Seen barrels with too deep of a throat.
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Old March 20, 2017, 11:24   #10
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The barrels of some MP-10s have stampings that went too deep, affecting accuracy
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Old March 20, 2017, 14:30   #11
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6" is indeed ridiculous. I'd try some FGMM with and without iron sights on the M&P-10.
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Old March 20, 2017, 18:23   #12
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FGMM ? Not ringing a bell.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.
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Old March 20, 2017, 20:14   #13
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I had a 7 mag Savage once upon a time bought really, really cheaply at a pawn shop. Like $220 including the 3X9 Leopold scope that came on it. I tried several different factory loads and could not get it to group to save my life. Finally, I decided to swap it off but took it for one last range trip. Dang thing ate a one raggedy hole group out of the target. Too little, too late as I had already made up my mind so it went away (sans scope).

Scope now happily resides on a tack driving 25-06 Remy that has NEVER had any trouble shooting itty-bitty groups with any ammo fed it. Life is far too short to spend time dealing with troublesome guns, womenfolk, dogs, or trucks. I like a challenge as much as the next guy and hate admitting defeat but dang it, I have other stuff to do.
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Old March 20, 2017, 20:36   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagerider View Post

I have heard that the S&W likes heavier bullets
I've seen it shoot sub MOA groups with 146 grain factory loads and 3-9 x 40 Nikon Monarch.
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Old March 20, 2017, 23:50   #15
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I checked for barrel stamps and the only one on the thinner forward barrel section is pretty shallow. Under the hand guards barrel stamps would have to be pretty heavy to damage the bore as this section is substantial.
I changed out the two piece scope mounts with a single piece type today, just for because.
Prepping brass for further tests. I will pick up some Federal high zoot factory ammo when I go to town later this week.
Weather was crappy today, snowing and blowing all day.

I had a Winchester Feather Weight years ago that I was not thrilled with so it went away. Years later I was looking through my records book and saw it liked 110 varment bullets, 1 inch at 100 yards consistently, should have kept it. It would have been a good coyote rifle.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.
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Old March 23, 2017, 18:31   #16
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FGMM ? Not ringing a bell.
Federal Gold Metal Match, but I think you figured that out!
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Old March 24, 2017, 18:54   #17
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Nope, never would have guessed. Thanks

I stopped by my local sporting goods store and I refuse to pay $1.80 a round to get this rifle to shoot as it should. I picked up some Federal though at $18.00 per 20 instead of $36.00. I think I have some high zoot .308 rounds stashed to test as well.
I have been prepping cases and getting ready to do some loading with a variety of bullets to get more information. When the wind lets up I will do my testing and post up target results.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.
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Old March 25, 2017, 17:24   #18
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Nope, never would have guessed. Thanks

I stopped by my local sporting goods store and I refuse to pay $1.80 a round to get this rifle to shoot as it should. I picked up some Federal though at $18.00 per 20 instead of $36.00. I think I have some high zoot .308 rounds stashed to test as well.
I have been prepping cases and getting ready to do some loading with a variety of bullets to get more information. When the wind lets up I will do my testing and post up target results.
Yeah, LGSs gotta pay the rent. If I buy any FGMM 175 on sale at $25/box, it's beauty is the QC, consistency and availability. Palmetto is good about running sales on it. These days if I buy for precision it's Custom Reloads of Dallas 185 Juggs or BH 175s. If you want ro try some of those hit me up after the first week in April, I'll send some for free. I'm in the middle of packing for a move right now.
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Old March 25, 2017, 17:41   #19
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If you want a truly accurate .308 AR, get one with known good barrel, and free-float it.
A non-free-floated gun is not likely to ever be consistently accurate.

Don't go cheap on the scope, and ESPECIALLY don't go cheap on the scope mount.

Don't expect best results unless you shoot high quality bullets.
Those FMJ bullets are just as likely to be all over the place, no matter what you shoot them out of.
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Old March 26, 2017, 06:02   #20
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Squaring the front of receiver is a good habit to get in if use bargain uppers. ARP won't warranty their products if used on a receiver that has not been squared. Can buy 6 different 18" mid weight 1:7 twist barrels. Occasionally get lucky with a Palmetto sale unit but usually a $300 W.O.A., Lothar Walther or other match barrel is worth it's price. Especially when sniping coyote at 400 yards. I got lucky and bought a bunch of W.O.A. AR 10 barrels before they abandoned them totally.
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Old April 01, 2017, 16:16   #21
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S&W AR-10 update

I put a few rounds together with Sierra Match King 168 grain HPBT Match and a few with 150 grain Remington pointed soft point bullets.
43 grains of IMR-4064 for the 168 grain Match Kings, CCI #34 primers.
45 grains of IMR-4064 for the 150 grain PSPs, CCI #34 primers.
Each powder charge was measured on an RCBS electronic scale.
RCBS Rock Chucker press.
Cases were all sized using an RCBS small base die and full length sized.
All cases were Lake City once fired, trimmed and debured to 2.005.
No high pressure signs observed.

The rifle was checked for face of bolt to rifling with the 168 grain Sierra Match King bullets, I got 2.8570. Picture included.
Rifle is new with ~50 rounds or less down range.

The Sierra Match King bullets were seated to an over all cartridge length of 2.800 due to the magazine opening, MagPul, opening length limitation. So there is a bullet jump of .057 thousandths, a little under 1/16th inches. I would prefer .005 to .010 but it is what it is. Why the deep throat I can't say but that is just the way they chamber the barrel. I did not bother to measure the 150 grain PSP bullet to rifling depth. I seated these bullets to their cannelure and crimped in place. No crimp was used on the Match King bullets due to no cannelure present.

Rifle was cleaned prior to testing with Shooters Choice, patches and new bronze .30 caliber bore brush. Dried with patches and a few fouling shots were done to get rounds on target. I replaced the two piece scope rings with a one piece unit prior to testing. Scope remains the Nikon 4x14 Buck Master. All rounds shot using the 14 power setting. Rifle was stabilized using the pictured Caldwell rifle rest.

Best group, first picture, was the 168 grain Sierra Match Kings (7 shots)
Second picture group was the 150 grain PSPs (5 shots)
No changes were made to scope settings from group to group.
10 ring is 3.25 inches in diameter.
Distance from rifle to target was 130 yards.
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File Type: jpg IMG_3663.JPG (107.4 KB, 36 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3662.JPG (100.7 KB, 29 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3664.JPG (86.4 KB, 26 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3661.JPG (166.5 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_3660.JPG (164.4 KB, 22 views)
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.

Last edited by Sagerider; April 01, 2017 at 16:43.
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Old April 01, 2017, 18:53   #22
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I see the issue, you have a tan stock on there
But seriously, my best friend has one that shoots VERY well.
I'd call S&W
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Old April 01, 2017, 19:03   #23
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One a scale of one to ten, what value would you assign to the quality of a sub-$150 variable-power rifle scope?

What evidence is available regarding the shooter's ability to shoot smaller groups off that contraption, with a similar-caliber weapon, and using a scope of similar quality?
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Old April 01, 2017, 19:29   #24
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My 0.02 is that you're putting pressure on the fore end that will transmit to the relatively thin looking barrel. Try moving your fore end support closer to the mag.

Also consider checking the barrel nut and flash hider for tightness. I had an arma lite that had a loose and un-staked barrel extension. That took a while to find.

How much do you trust that scope and mount? Given the group size, you should be able to better them with an el cheapo Bushnell RDS if the optic is the issue.

Good luck.
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Old April 01, 2017, 19:46   #25
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Post #3 advised trying another scope. With a non free floated barrel the Lead Sled is no guarantee if lay hand on stock one one shot and not the next. Mount looks lightweight to me also. Burly mount, lapped rings, good quality scope and factory premium ammunition. Also wonder about trigger? 8, 4 or 2 pounds
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Old April 01, 2017, 20:05   #26
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Quote:
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The barrels of some MP-10s have stampings that went too deep, affecting accuracy
That's a new one to me. But I have encountered similar accuacy issues with AR's that do not have properly torqued barrels. That would be my first check.
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Old April 01, 2017, 21:28   #27
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I see the issue, you have a tan stock on there
But seriously, my best friend has one that shoots VERY well.
I'd call S&W
Best advice so far, I will contact them Monday.
Thanks
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.
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Old April 02, 2017, 14:38   #28
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My 0.02 is that you're putting pressure on the fore end that will transmit to the relatively thin looking barrel. Try moving your fore end support closer to the mag
I'd just like to point out that the MP-10 barrel actually has a sporter weight taper and under the handguard, is thicker than the profile of the FAL barrel

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That's a new one to me
For awhile, it was a hot topic on http://smith-wessonforum.com/
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Old April 02, 2017, 17:56   #29
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One by one eliminating issues

Today I got the big scope out of it's box and mounted it, a Leupold VIII 8.5X25, I used monolithic type bases as well all to narrow things down. I figure this will eliminate any question about scopes and bases. This is the third scope and third set of bases or scope mounts. If this does not take care of the scope and mount issues nothing this mortal can afford will.

Next I will eliminate the not all that reliable rifle rest. I used this to attempt to remove shooter effects but it has caused it's own problems. Not as stable or repeatable as sand bags which will be next.

I have two factory selections of ammo to try but I am waiting until I get the other variables eliminated, don't want to waste it. I have a bag of new Winchester brass I will load up this evening to eliminate the military Lake City that I have been using. On a side note the Lake City was all resized, trimmed to 2.005, debured, primer flash holes reamed and debured as well.

Trigger is a, 4# I believe, Timney replacing the stock trigger. I would prefer a lighter trigger but this is what I have for now.

Next issue is the shooter, maybe I just suck ass? Practice makes perfect however. Getting used to shooting again after not shooting for some time due to winter snows and sub zero temperatures will defiantly help.

The first picture is the Leupold and scope mounts.
The second is the first group after mounting the Leupold.
The third picture is after adjusting the point of aim vs point of impact. This sucks ass big time and shows me the issues with the rifle rest variables as well as my inputs. Between the first group and the second a front came in with a huge temperature drop and snow flurrys, I could not feel my fingers at this point. Both groups were using Lake City brass, CCI #34 primers, 43 grains of IMR4064 and 168 grain Sierra Match King Match Bullets. The weather here in Montana can change virtually from minute to minute. If you ever visit be sure to bring a good coat.

The whole point of this post is to gain knowledge and share what we know and learn. I will contact Smith & Wesson tomorrow and see if they have any advice.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.

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Old April 02, 2017, 18:36   #30
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A group that size is well within reason for a shooter firing an unfamiliar weapon at 130 yards, while the weapon is tied in that manner to some unfamiliar contraption.

There is nothing wrong with that gun that Smith and Wesson can help you with.



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Old April 02, 2017, 19:25   #31
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I will endever to persevere to improve my performance.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.
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Old April 03, 2017, 05:46   #32
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Have you been able.to check barrel nut torque or lack thereof, as mentioned earlier?
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Old April 03, 2017, 06:47   #33
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Wonder if they square the front of the receivers or just screw them together. If front is just a few thousandths out of square when torque barrel nut put barrel in a bind, bolt doesn't lock up square and entire build goes to crap. Threw an upper receiver in scrap pile last week, not only was front out of square, threads were out of square so no amount of facing it would fix it. If call vendor they will tell you have to order billet specialty parts if want them in spec. Stopped worrying and pitch any uppers that can't fix as cost of buying cheap. Smith uppers are usually good, use a lot of M&P 15 slick side uppers and always square and true. Smith is about only complete built rifles I buy for putting back these days.
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Old April 03, 2017, 08:42   #34
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High Master shooting buddy of mine got one of those contraptions to (try to) test a gun that was not shooting to his satisfaction.

His groups from the contraption were considerably larger than groups he fired from a sling-supported position, with a few "crazy shots."

When he was packing up the contraption after the failed range trip, he commented that it would take a LOT of practice with the contraption to develop any confidence in it.

Those contraptions are most effective at reducing the size of two things:
The thickness of your wallet; and expectations that technique can be purchased.

If I wanted to know what that rifle could do on its best day, I would put the contraption in the garage, and I'd get a collection of sandbags, blankets and towels, and 100 rounds of top-quality ammo. Then I would set aside a (nice weather) day for testing. Build a comfortable rest from those materials, and take your time. Use padding as needed so the gun doesn't beat you up. That lighteight .308 is gonna "speak" to you from the bench until you pad it like the princess and the pea.

That gun should be able to reliably produce 1.5 moa 5-shot groups at 130 yards with a fouled barrel that is not overheated. You might even be surprised with smaller groups if you can be patient enough to work for it.
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Old April 03, 2017, 09:00   #35
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I have two. Being used for its best application below.



Makes a sturdy mount for lapping scope rings and such. The tray is great for laying tools. If use for shooting and don't put a least 50 pounds of lead shot (hense the name LeadSled) it slides around and makes subsequent shots almost impossible to get back on target center. Better off with a good set of leather sand bags.

Only time I use one for shooting is when checking zero or new load for large magnum rifle. Since broke my C2 and C3 cervical disks and T6 thoracic disk recoil of 300 Win Mag or bigger hurts if shoot more than two or three rounds. Have two, one for smith work and other for day of sighting in big magnums or load testing. Then put four 25 pound bags of lead shot on tray and lay two bags over rail at rear. Otherwise spend all your time trying to move it back to same exact spot on bench. I always use a pencil and draw outline around each foot in case it moves. Otherwise it will be off camber and alignment each and every shot. Yes carrying the dang thing and 150 pounds of lead shot to bench sucks but only way I can get any use out of it. Even then, the front rest doesn't work as well as my normal rifle rest due to foam instead of sand or shot in padding. Forearm never settles into foam and stays same place. Going to cut fromt pad open and fill with something better someday.
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Old April 03, 2017, 09:28   #36
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Thanks W.E.G. That is exactly what I am going to do. The contraption is not working out as I expected. I have done my best with AR-15, my National Match types, resting my left hand on a firm object and elbow on the deck. My right elbow on the deck against a sand bag, I am a right handed shooter btw. I thought I would try the contraption to eliminate anticipated recoil.
I am seeing some improvement in myself getting used to the increase in recoil from the .308 which is promising.
Is there an improvement to be expected from the barrel as it gets worn in? This rifle is new with less than 100 rounds out of it now.

I have been doing some checking on YouTube regarding the M&P 10 and from what I am seeing nobody is getting anything much better than what I am getting at this point. I am only counting guy's shooting at least 100 yards or better on paper. Hitting 12 inch steel plates at 100 yards does not count as far as I am concerned.
I do realized that this rifle is not a bench rest target rifle and I ain't that good a shooter. To get better I have to shoot it and develope a load it likes which I am just getting started. I am not interested in buying factory built ammo because I get my jollies reloading and experimenting with different components, huge satisfaction when I get it right. Some rifles are easier than others but one you have to work at is fun specially when you see you are making progress. I think this rifle will be one of those.
I will continue to keep the post updated as to progress.

I will look into the barrel nut.
I will also look into free floating the barrel. The barrel diameter under the hand guard area is rather large and the skinny part is just the tip of an iceberg.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.
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Old April 03, 2017, 09:38   #37
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It should shoot better. Pull upper, remove barrel, square receiver and reassemble with proper torque on nut. Maybe add a free float tube. Bet closes groups more than half if not gets it close to MOA. Even my Palmetto blem receiver AR 10's with clearance barrels shoot MOA or darn close.
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Old April 03, 2017, 09:42   #38
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The best marksmen usually don't bother to post their work to YouTube.

1.5 moa with good ammo and correct technique.

I would be very suprised if that rifle cannot do it.
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Old April 06, 2017, 14:42   #39
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Getting better!

This morning the wind and weather was about as good as it gets, high 40s and no wind.
The setup is with lead shot bags, more stable. No adjustments were made to elevation or windage during the tests.

The picture of the bottom target, first five group after a fouling shot from a clean barrel. The target above that is the second five shot group after 10 minutes to allow the barrel to cool. Best group so far at 1 3/4". Nosler ballistic tip 165 grain.

The next picture, bottom red seven shot group was shot the other day, is the same load using Sierra 168 HPBT Match King Match. It has shifted down from the other day but remains the same size.

Both loads were using Lake City brass with 43 grains of IMR4064. I am going to call Max load on this due to the temperature being fairly low. Powder fills the case to within 3/8 inch of the mouth, slight compression when seating bullets.

From what I am seeing today the best result is with the Nosler Balistic Tip. Figures it is the most expensive of the two.
From my conversation with the rep. from Smith & Wesson this is what I should expect, 1.5 to 2 inch groups. Can I do better, sure. I just need to keep working at the loads using different components and work to improve my shooting technique.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.

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Old April 06, 2017, 15:58   #40
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I feel your pain, man. I've focused on bolt guns for precision. Gas guns other than a Seekins, OBRn etc. take a lot more finesse... to shoot, too.
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Old April 06, 2017, 16:22   #41
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Disappointed no more! :)

I just got done shooting this ten shot string. Counting out the two fliers the group is 1 3/8 inches even with the fliers include it is 2.5 inches.

This is Lake City brass, 150 grain Remington Pointed Soft Point crimped on cannelure, CCI #34 primer and 45 grains of IMR4064. Minor tail breeze with a temperature of 60 degrees F. Range is lasered measured at 130 yards.

I tried this one before with the led sled and not much better than any of the others. Today with the lead shot bags the worm has turned. The change to a decent rest made a world of difference, thanks W.E.G.!

Keep in mind this rifle is new and getting close to 100 rounds down range at this point. I am thinking the barrel is getting run in and my shooting rest has improved greatly as well as my technique.

Note: On the top of the recoil tube I put a single piece of Gorilla tape to keep the MagPul stock from moving, takes up the slop in the fit. This was used on all previous testing so no changes were made other than loads stated. No scope elevation or windage changes were made throughout testing. Scope power settings were 14 on the Nikon and 15 on the Leupold.

For comparison second picture of post #21 is this same load, vast improvement here.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.

Last edited by Sagerider; April 07, 2017 at 03:49.
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Old April 06, 2017, 16:30   #42
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Have an AR 10 upper in 6XC with 26" tube that John assembled himself. Shoots like a turnout except no twisting a bolt. Have two W.O.A. 24" 0.998" Wylde AR15 barrels that drop to 0.850" at gas block then to 0.836" to an 11 degree target crown. Start with a good barrel, square the receiver and even a shell shucker will shoot if man behind does his job. Not that I am that man that can milk one to its potential. Build cheaters to make me look half decent at the range.
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Old April 07, 2017, 02:02   #43
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Is the barrel nitride treated? Other names can be QPQ, Melonite etc. Ive seen the nitrated barrels take 500 rds to come in.
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Old April 07, 2017, 03:44   #44
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This is the S&W spread sheet on these rifles.
They call it an "ArmorniteŽ Barrel Finish"

https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearm...in-optic-ready

Just in case anyone was wondering how the flash hider muzzle brake works the report did not blow my ear drums out when I forgot to put my ears on once.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.

Last edited by Sagerider; April 07, 2017 at 03:56.
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Old April 07, 2017, 07:18   #45
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All Smith M&P 15 barrels are melonite/deep salt bath treated. Why I buy so many of them, would expect the AR 10 versions to be the same. Advantage to deep salt bath treating is hardens the barrel to point it will almost or more than double it's service life. Down side is any burrs or machining marks take twice the time to smooth out. One thing have learned from large over bore rifles any issue with throat and accuracy suffers. Every 500 rounds have to fire a few "lapping rounds" down the bore of my 7mm Practicals, 22-250 Ackley's and others to recondition the throat and bore. One some of my melonite barrels have noticed inconsistent performance when new and showed them a few bore lapping rounds which settled them down immediately.

You are unhappy as is, try these bet they make it better. Never thought about the melonite on the M&P 10. If have a rough bore its going to take something to smooth it. Of course 500 rounds might tweak shooter and rifle. Duhhh...

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/84...ster-box-of-20

If you want to be a little less aggressive and use throat lapping kit instead of dual compound bore lapping kit try this link. I use both products according to goals.

http://www.davidtubb.com/final-finis...loadedammo-308

Use the bore lapping kit on some new barrels if won't settle down quickly and the throat lapping kit on my overbore wildcats everytime accuracy drops off till it quits helping then rebarrel. Playing with rifles that require a new barrel every 1,000 rounds or so gets expensive. White Oak has told me to expect 2,000 rounds out of my 22 Nosler barrels then it's a battle rifle plinker till 4,000 round count where becomes scrap metal. Lapped the throat with five rounds first trip to the range. Plan is to use a lapping kit at 1,000 and 2,000 and see if can squeeze an extra 1,000 accurate rounds out of barrel.

Picked this trick up back in the day of cryofreezing all my match barrels. Would come back so hard that took forever to break them in. Point of freezing was to stress relieve but increased surface hardness came with it. Used to be a company called "Black Star" that had a microscopic polishing process that removed all machining imperfections from throat and bore, especially of cryo-treated barrels. To prove their system personally had two 22-250 Ackley Improved builds done identical except one barrel was installed directly from cryofreezing and the other went to Black Star. Side by side, same range, same ammo, two separate shooters on both the Black Star rifle out shot the non Black Star rifle. Everything on both was identical. Other shooter didn't know one was different so was not influenced mentally behind them. After half day of testing we fire lapped the non Black Star rifle and groups closed up to almost as tight as the Black Star by end of day.

Most of the time we are looking for maximum barrel life. It is known that chrome lining increases barrel life down the road but decreases accuracy on the front end. Same with many other processes that extend barrel life. One small imperfection or burr can really throw accuracy in the toilet. Some claim different by purposely gouging a barrel and showing it still shoots as well as before. With mass produced, inexpensive milspec barrels this can be true. With Shilen, Kreiger and other super high dollar air gauged barrels any little impossible to see unmagnified damage to throat, crown or rifling will cost you huge when measuring groups to the hundredth or thousanths of an inch. Over the years have read of groups fired in tournaments waiting for target to be sent to NRA or other officials for measuring to confirm a world record. When shooting this class of rifle then every trick is used. Some of those can be used for dumbed down factory mass produced tubes. Have had three factory rifles gave to my smith and said don't care what it costs, make it as accurate as possible without swapping a single factory part. One Remington 700 in 7mm Mag was shooting 1.5+ MOA out of the box with best handload developed for it. Came back shooting 3/4 MOA with premium factory ammo and 5/8 MOA with handloads. No parts swapped but dissassembled, tad machined off rear of barrel and match reamer used, cryofreezing, Black Star, all parts massaged, hand fitted, rebedded and reassembled by F Class builder.

Takes me five minutes to square a receiver with a Wheeler lapping tool and a cordless drill. Almost as good as having a smith do it on a lathe. With trouble AR's have torn down upper, lapped front of receiver, fixed gas issue came in for, floated the handguards, reassembled then dropped a JP Enhanced Reliability spring kit in the factory trigger and turned a 2+ MOA rifle that didn't cycle 100% into a 100% reliable near MOA rifle with under $100 in parts and half day of time hand fitting them on reassembly.
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Old April 07, 2017, 08:06   #46
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Resist the urge to cram any sort of abrasive into the bore.

Abrasives sometimes restore (for a little while) a well-worn barrel that previously shot well, and assuming you know what the hell you are doing when you apply the abrasives.

I would put the odds at 100:1 against abrasives converting a new barrel into a better barrel.

There is nothing wrong with that barrel as it sits.
Clean it gently, and conservatively.

Practice your markmanship regularly.
Limit your training to a very small number of guns.
A good number to start with is: one.

I have a very accurate M1A that has about 4000 rounds down the barrel.
Bore cleaning consists of:
  • three dry passes with a bronze brush to loosen whatever will loosen
  • spray Break Free down the bore
  • pull three cotton patches
  • mop the chamber
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Old April 07, 2017, 08:59   #47
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By pulling patches are you using a cable? I have a cleaning setup somewhere in my trove of stuff that uses a cable encased in plastic where the patch and brush are pulled through the bore as opposed to the standard cleaning rod. I know it is possible to clean a rifle to death with a standard cleaning rod.

Something I have been thinking about during all of this is notice the variations of group impact using the same point of aim, same load and same rifle with no changes in windage or elivation settings. I am thinking this can only be possible due to poor rest and poor shooter input.

The big break here is making me feel much better about my rifle, building confidence in myself and the rifle. I am not a big fan of the duel controls however, sort of clutters things up a bit. I can and will live with the extra controls just have to get used to it.
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The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.

Matthew 25:1 thru 25:10 Be ready!

The written word sometimes like poetry is never really finished but merely abandoned.

I live alone in the middle of nowhere with two dogs and a cat, what do you think about that.

The wind blows, the rain falls, the flag snaps its bravery in the dark as two dogs boil for attention at my feet.

Of course it is a true story. You just couldn't make up something like that, no way.
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Old April 07, 2017, 09:12   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sagerider View Post
...By pulling patches are you using a cable? I have a cleaning setup somewhere in my trove of stuff that uses a cable encased in plastic where the patch and brush are pulled through the bore as opposed to the standard cleaning rod. I know it is possible to clean a rifle to death with a standard cleaning rod....
Yup, I only use cable system (I use OTIS Deluxe kit) and pull brushes or patches from receiver to muzzle. There are carbine fiber and other softer metal rods that work too, but I haven't played with those (receiver guides are a must I here). Often thought of how much damage we were doing to or USMC issue 16s (A2, A4, M4, etc...) by jamming steel cleaning rods in and out of the barrel for hours at a time!

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Old April 07, 2017, 10:50   #49
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The brush stays on a stiff rod until the bristles start falling off. Then I install a new brush.
Try not to grind the rod against the crown while you are doing this. I find I am able to stay focused on the task for three strokes without (usually) doing something stupid.

The patches get pulled on one of the Otis cable things. Looked like cheap shit to me when I got it. Some two decades ago. Thousands of rifles cleaned. More than a few "oh shit" moments from too-tight patches in the bore, where I was sure I was gonna have to burn it out of the bore. That thing keeps on chugging. I bought a couple spares, and they're around here somewhere. Unused.

Top Tip.
When pulling overly-tight, splooged patch through bore, be ready for it when it clears the muzzle. Otherwise, you can get a money-shot of CLP splooge right in the mouth when it lets go.
  • And if you happened be pushing against the muzzle of the weapon at that shangri-la moment, you might involuntarily push the rifle (still attached to the cleaning vise) inceremoniously onto the floor. While you wipe your mouth.
  • If you have to lie down on the floor, and brace the recoil shield and the trigger guard against your feet, while you pull the cable with both hands, you should use a smaller patch next time.

At least that's what I've heard.
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Old April 07, 2017, 11:22   #50
Nuttz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
...Otherwise, you can get a money-shot of CLP splooge right in the mouth when it lets go...
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