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Old July 11, 2018, 20:07   #1
Pusha
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The Future of FAL Receivers

With new DSAs and Coonans being questionable, forged DSA receivers selling for near $1,000 and Imbel type IIIs pretty much all gone what is the future for FAL receivers in the US? I know there are several more rifles I'd like to add to my collection but I'm hesitant to buy kits with the paucity of quality receivers.

Are there any quality upper receiver options on the horizon?
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Old July 11, 2018, 21:05   #2
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You can still order (say) a Type-I; G1 marked from Coonan, as well as matching serialized Type III for an Argy: The issue with Coonan is, they are quoting 6 months lead-time.

Mark Graham will still work with the Type III from DSA, but for the most part, he still has to make some adjustments.

Not sure why people are paying through the nose for Imbel Type III Gear Logo receivers, as these can still be purchased direct from PARS. However, how many they/he has left is questionable.....I bought one 3 or 4 months ago and the mag well was dated 2001.

As you indicate, maybe the days of buying kits will soon be over, due to either over-priced or lack of serviceable receivers.

Since this is a niche market, I don't foresee any investment in new receiver manufacturer's. If DSA could get their QC back on track, they would be in prime position to win back the faith of their customer base & own the market.

It wouldn't take much for Coonan to be right behind them.

As it stands today, it's cheaper to buy a ready built gun.....
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Old July 12, 2018, 08:24   #3
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It seems that the main issue with Coonan is their warranty issue.....I went back a few pages in the reviews section and only found one Coonan thread and multiple dsa threads ....it appears most recievers are being made to work with Coonan having the fewest issues that I can see....if you have any questions or concerns just give Coonan a call.....
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Old July 12, 2018, 08:31   #4
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.if you have any questions or concerns just give Coonan a call.....
So they can lie to you, change their warranty from "if you ever have a problem, we'll take care of it" to "f-ck you, you suck". Refuse to replace a receiver until I Publish a video to shame them into it. And claim all your parts kits don't fit because they are defective.
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Old July 12, 2018, 08:52   #5
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There are plenty of receivers out there.

There are still some really nice and obscure kits out there as well.

There are also plenty of guys who want to build their own FAL, or commission someone like Gunplumber to roll one up for them.

I have observed that people who really want to build that special rifle have no issues paying up for quality... myself included (I have spent some stupid money on a builds lately).

Not to mention that a shitload of FALs were built over the years... plenty of donor receivers for those who want to educate themselves on what to look for (and want to put in the legwork to find them).

Of course, you still have DSA and Coonan.... and as unpalatable as they are, they are still an option. It baffles me as to why one of the two doesn't step up and get their shyte back together. Both have an opportunity to corner and dominate the market while the other is caught with their pants down. Maybe that is why Coonan has been backing off of production lately... maybe they are retooling and readdressing they QC? They kicked out a quality, affordable receiver for multiple years, they should be able to do it again?

FALs will always be cool to gun guys.... every time I go to the range, there is always someone asking, "what is that, that is awesome!"

The market is saturated with M14 rifles, but they still sell! FAL rifles are significantly easier to build. It is apparent that folks are willing to spend $800+ for a new LRB receiver. People will always be willing to pay up for a quality FAL receiver.

I think our perceived value of quality is skewed by the past. The large number of inexpensive (and high quality) Imbel receivers had a significant impact on bring the price of US made FAL receivers down. Compare the cost of building a nice FAL to a retro AR clone or ground up M14, and you will find an FAL to be a bargain (even with a $900+ receiver).
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Old July 12, 2018, 11:52   #6
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I have been following the recent ramblings between Mark, DSA Rep's and our family here on the Files.....last night, I think it took me an hour just to read page 2.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...09#post4607009

Somewhere in there, I believe I read where DSA is still producing (or maybe soon to be producing) L1A1 receivers (?). However, I know Mark has more than a certain unwillingness to take on such a challenge, based on past experiences.

So, with people like myself who rely on Mark for our builds, I'm left with the elusive missing piece to complete an L1A1 build. The very position I am currently in !!

I'm somewhat familiar with 'Incoming QC', Manufacturing Process Control (aka ISO9001) and 'Final Inspection', which can be managed at several levels (Mil Spec and/or product dependent). In terms of DSA manufactured receivers (not finished DSA Rifles), I doubt they are selling them by the hundreds per day ?? If this is the case, I see no reason why DSA cannot do a 100% outgoing Final QC on all receivers being shipped to their customers, to insure not only 100% good product but 100% happy customers.

I recently placed an order with Coonan for an Argy cut Type III (matching serial number) and a G1 Type I with the correct G1 markings. What (kinda) pisses me off is, they instantly charge your credit card for the receivers, while telling you it will take them 6 months to deliver the product.....and the estimated delivery is based on customer orders received and the amount of materials they need to order....how F*^+%# up is that !! Essentially, we are pre-paying not only their manufacturing cost, but also their materials cost.

I need an L1A1 receiver and like Lockjaw (and Mark), I'm willing to pay for a quality product.

Graham.
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Old July 12, 2018, 12:47   #7
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Originally Posted by Pusha View Post
With new DSAs and Coonans being questionable, forged DSA receivers selling for near $1,000 and Imbel type IIIs pretty much all gone what is the future for FAL receivers in the US? I know there are several more rifles I'd like to add to my collection but I'm hesitant to buy kits with the paucity of quality receivers.

Are there any quality upper receiver options on the horizon?
The short of it is there is likely no future for FAL receivers in either in metric or inch. Those of us whom have been around a while have seen the days where manufactures sat on their receivers 2 years or more to sell out the receiver line.

There are two things the manufactures have determined for any possible startup up of different types of receivers:
The current availability of new part kits imports, current online sales of horded kits and feeling the pulse of current buyers/builders regarding their likes and dislikes of current receiver products.

DSA is currently providing some contract overruns and a couple of past limited receiver lines with a suggestion of future forged and cast receivers. What I believe that means is perhaps there may be some very limited new short runs of receivers and possible contract overruns. But not enough to please everyone and this will likely drop the value of inflated older receivers on the current market
Their AR business seems to have now taken over the majority of their market sales and the FAL receiver business seems to be a side-line with a limited future.

Much the same may apply to Coonan also who has their eyes on future production considering the ongoing bad feedback regarding their current crop of receivers.

Will there other manufacturers jumping into the FAL market? Not likely but it has been done before and with a lot of product issues.
Let's face it the golden age of FAL's/SLR's has sunsetted and we are now in the recovery stage not a rescue stage. The manufactures know it.
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Old July 12, 2018, 12:48   #8
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I have been following the recent ramblings between Mark, DSA Rep's and our family here on the Files.....last night, I think it took me an hour just to read page 2.
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showt...09#post4607009

Somewhere in there, I believe I read where DSA is still producing (or maybe soon to be producing) L1A1 receivers (?). However, I know Mark has more than a certain unwillingness to take on such a challenge, based on past experiences.

So, with people like myself who rely on Mark for our builds, I'm left with the elusive missing piece to complete an L1A1 build. The very position I am currently in !!

I'm somewhat familiar with 'Incoming QC', Manufacturing Process Control (aka ISO9001) and 'Final Inspection', which can be managed at several levels (Mil Spec and/or product dependent). In terms of DSA manufactured receivers (not finished DSA Rifles), I doubt they are selling them by the hundreds per day ?? If this is the case, I see no reason why DSA cannot do a 100% outgoing Final QC on all receivers being shipped to their customers, to insure not only 100% good product but 100% happy customers.

I recently placed an order with Coonan for an Argy cut Type III (matching serial number) and a G1 Type I with the correct G1 markings. What (kinda) pisses me off is, they instantly charge your credit card for the receivers, while telling you it will take them 6 months to deliver the product.....and the estimated delivery is based on customer orders received and the amount of materials they need to order....how F*^+%# up is that !! Essentially, we are pre-paying not only their manufacturing cost, but also their materials cost.

I need an L1A1 receiver and like Lockjaw (and Mark), I'm willing to pay for a quality product.

Graham.
Iím not sure who you spoke to at Coonan but I do know that they had more orders than expected and thatís why they had to order more material.....
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Old July 12, 2018, 13:02   #9
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So they can lie to you, change their warranty from "if you ever have a problem, we'll take care of it" to "f-ck you, you suck". Refuse to replace a receiver until I Publish a video to shame them into it. And claim all your parts kits don't fit because they are defective.
Iíve never had to return a receiver to them but Iíve had great customer service otherwise....if they did what you posted above regarding the defective receiver they needed to be called out on it....
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Old July 12, 2018, 13:33   #10
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In this day and age of CAD and CNC machining and quality materials, I am surprised that a quality in spec receiver cannot be reliably, consistently be made. Is it technique, tooling, skill, money work ethic or what? - MAGA, give a shit, and take pride in your work!
I always think of that internet photo of that Guy dressed up in a Coppered green Statue of liberty outfit, tossing an arrow by the side of the road, directing potential customers to his employers business - that guy is excelling, in full acrobatic 'arrow flinging' aerialisms! Whatever you do, endeavor to do it well!
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Old July 12, 2018, 14:15   #11
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No one with a CNC shop wants to make FAL receivers. There are far more profitable things to make .
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Old July 12, 2018, 14:32   #12
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In this day and age of CAD and CNC machining and quality materials, I am surprised that a quality in spec receiver cannot be reliably, consistently be made. Is it technique, tooling, skill, money work ethic or what? - MAGA, give a shit, and take pride in your work!
I always think of that internet photo of that Guy dressed up in a Coppered green Statue of liberty outfit, tossing an arrow by the side of the road, directing potential customers to his employers business - that guy is excelling, in full acrobatic 'arrow flinging' aerialisms! Whatever you do, endeavor to do it well!
It amazes me that no one approached FN to license the manufacture of the FAL over here. I always assumed (yes, I do know what assuming does) either FN was asking to much or US manufacture were too cheap.
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Old July 12, 2018, 19:28   #13
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There was a gunsmith in Fredricksburg, VA who used to work for FN USA when they first started up operations back in late 90s/early 2000s. At some point they broke off there business relationship and paid him off with a bunch of their hipowers (I was buying one from him at the time).

He told me that FN had discussed building Fals at that time but for whatever reason they did not proceed. He had some interesting odds and ends in his shop. Haven't seen the guy in years - think he may have gone thru a divorce and lost his shop.


Quote:
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It amazes me that no one approached FN to license the manufacture of the FAL over here. I always assumed (yes, I do know what assuming does) either FN was asking to much or US manufacture were too cheap.
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Old July 12, 2018, 20:08   #14
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It amazes me that no one approached FN to license the manufacture of the FAL over here. I always assumed (yes, I do know what assuming does) either FN was asking to much or US manufacture were too cheap.
Both FN & Winston Churchill tried to accomplish that, way back when, but a certain US Army Col. Rene Studler ended all hopes.

FN actually offered licensed manufacturing for free !!
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Old July 12, 2018, 22:49   #15
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Several years ago FN Herstahl sold all their tooling for the Fal to Nigeria. But Nobody in there right mind would trust Nigeria which has become the Number one scamming country in the world.
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Old July 12, 2018, 23:25   #16
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Several years ago FN Herstahl sold all their tooling for the Fal to Nigeria. But Nobody in there right mind would trust Nigeria which has become the Number one scamming country in the world.
Hey now! I just got a check from a kind Nigerian prince for $1,000,000. I only had to pay the US tax on it... Lol
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Old July 12, 2018, 23:43   #17
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Several years ago FN Herstahl sold all their tooling for the Fal to Nigeria. But Nobody in there right mind would trust Nigeria which has become the Number one scamming country in the world.
What?! That is crazy!!! What is the back story and where did the tooling end up?
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Old July 13, 2018, 06:57   #18
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http://www.l1a1.com/forums/showthread.php?t=337684
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Old July 13, 2018, 10:20   #19
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It amazes me that no one approached FN to license the manufacture of the FAL over here. I always assumed (yes, I do know what assuming does) either FN was asking to much or US manufacture were too cheap.
I know it's a complete and total wet dream but I've always dreamed of FN America manufacturing new in spec FALs for civilian consumption. That said I wonder what sort of market there'd be for such a product, how much it'd cost to tool up for such an enterprise and what sort of per unit price you'd be looking at?

It might be an apples and oranges comparison but PTR seems to do reasonably well with all the G3 variants they manufacture.
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Old July 13, 2018, 10:53   #20
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I was told or read somewhere that FN approached DSA, or maybe the other way around, about being a licensed manufacturer but the cost was too high....
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Old July 13, 2018, 11:43   #21
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I was told or read somewhere that FN approached DSA, or maybe the other way around, about being a licensed manufacturer but the cost was too high....
Maybe DSA didn't like the idea of FN breathing down their necks in regards QC issues?
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Old July 13, 2018, 13:55   #22
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I talked to David Sellvaggio over 17 years ago when he told me that He had a meeting with FNH and he said they wanted 15% of the profit for Fal production which he refused out right and the price wasn't negotiable from FNH.
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Old July 13, 2018, 14:12   #23
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I was told or read somewhere that FN approached DSA, or maybe the other way around, about being a licensed manufacturer but the cost was too high....
But LMT could get it right without license?
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Old July 13, 2018, 14:35   #24
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I talked to David Sellvaggio over 17 years ago when he told me that He had a meeting with FNH and he said they wanted 15% of the profit for Fal production which he refused out right and the price wasn't negotiable from FNH.
15% of the net is chicken feed.

15% of the gross is a killer.




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Old July 13, 2018, 18:55   #25
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But LMT could get it right without license?
Which begs the question of why nobody with a set of prints has approached LMT about making some receivers! I'd be in for a T2, I'm trying to build a reference library for the kids.

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Old July 13, 2018, 20:57   #26
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I’ve never had to return a receiver to them but I’ve had great customer service otherwise....if they did what you posted above regarding the defective receiver they needed to be called out on it....
Same here. I have no complaints for either. But I do recognize that there is merit in what has been reported. It actually made me run through the checklist on the receivers when I get them as opposed to throwing them in the safe until I have time to build on them.

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Which begs the question of why nobody with a set of prints has approached LMT about making some receivers! I'd be in for a T2, I'm trying to build a reference library for the kids.
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We have. Bottomline, there is not sufficient demand to warrant them to take the time to produce the code and tool-up. Especially since they are too busy earning real money on government contract.

And what demand there is, only a small percentage would pay the price. The majority are too cheap to pay what would be required to get such an endeavor moving. So, overall poor business model for success.
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Old July 13, 2018, 21:58   #27
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There was a gunsmith in Fredricksburg, VA who used to work for FN USA when they first started up operations back in late 90s/early 2000s. At some point they broke off there business relationship and paid him off with a bunch of their hipowers (I was buying one from him at the time).

He told me that FN had discussed building Fals at that time but for whatever reason they did not proceed. He had some interesting odds and ends in his shop. Haven't seen the guy in years - think he may have gone thru a divorce and lost his shop.
You are talking about Tommy Kivelhan or as those of us who had the displeasure of working with him called him, Snivelhan. I bought a FAL from him with a serial # of FNMI 0001 that was machined by Caspian Arms as part of a series of 10 when FN were contemplating FAL production in the US. Tommy had built it and it was the most cobbled together FrankenFAL I've ever seen but I wanted the receiver.

Yes, he lost the shop in the divorce but he now lives in Parkersburg,WV and is still trying to flog off all the parts he got from Kimber when he left there prior to working for FN and HK. He was a nice guy to hang out with but he was a terrible machinist and didn't know most of what he claimed to about CNC machining which cost LWRC over $500,000 when they bought machines he claimed he could run and was unable to. Long back story on that and one which brings up many bad memories...
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Old July 14, 2018, 13:29   #28
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I was told or read somewhere that FN approached DSA, or maybe the other way around, about being a licensed manufacturer but the cost was too high....
FN approached DSA. DSA told me that a long time ago. DSA declined, but later regretted it. I can't remember the specifics anymore but it had something to do with already having made prior commitments and those commitments would have somehow been impacted.....
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Old July 14, 2018, 13:59   #29
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Iíve never had to return a receiver to them but Iíve had great customer service otherwise....if they did what you posted above regarding the defective receiver they needed to be called out on it....
When I asked about the change in warranty, I was told they made the change due to Gunplumber. From what I remember from the conversation, the reason they had issues on that special fix return is that Gunplumber had modified and made several machining operations on the defective receiver BEFORE requesting an exchange, they could not approve the exchange. Had it not been messed with, it would not have been a problem. Gunplumber pissed them off so bad, they made the new Gunplumber warranty rule. Unlike DSA, I have yet to find a Coonan that I cannot build on. But if I do, I am confident Coonan will make it right. I believe I have better people skills than T. Mark.
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Old July 14, 2018, 23:03   #30
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Which begs the question of why nobody with a set of prints has approached LMT about making some receivers! I'd be in for a T2, I'm trying to build a reference library for the kids.

Eli
Someone here did not too long ago, I forget who. Apparently they can't use the DSA prints to make them for someone else, so if someone wants in-spec receivers made, they'd have to provide the prints themselves. At least that's what I recall being the case.
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Old Yesterday, 06:08   #31
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We have. Bottomline, there is not sufficient demand to warrant them to take the time to produce the code and tool-up. Especially since they are too busy earning real money on government contract.
I would also add that it cost money to stop a line and set it up for a given product. A small shop like DSA, Coonan, or Green Mountain barrels can do it more easily than, say, a larger place like Taurus (they do advertise they will do custom projects using MIM or whatnot). I have been told by Coonan and Green Mountain their minimum order (FAL receivers and custom profile barrels specifically) is 100. A place as large as Taurus probably would not touch it without a paid order of thousands of units; I expect companies of similar size to be the same.

And, contrary to what the gun ban crowd claims, ARs are where the money is at. I would not be surprised if either we are approaching the point where there are more ARs in the US than every other rifle combined. Profit margins might be lower than a niche market product but you have to be a complete clot to make a product so bad nobody will buy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4markk View Post
And what demand there is, only a small percentage would pay the price. The majority are too cheap to pay what would be required to get such an endeavor moving. So, overall poor business model for success.
That too.
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Old Yesterday, 07:11   #32
Grahamneall
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[QUOTE=raubvogel;4608397]I would also add that it cost money to stop a line and set it up for a given product. A small shop like DSA, Coonan, or Green Mountain barrels can do it more easily than, say, a larger place like Taurus (they do advertise they will do custom projects using MIM or whatnot). I have been told by Coonan and Green Mountain their minimum order (FAL receivers and custom profile barrels specifically) is 100. A place as large as Taurus probably would not touch it without a paid order of thousands of units; I expect companies of similar size to be the same.

A minimum production order of 100 pcs is the very reason Coonan are quoting 6 month lead-time to get your receiver, after you have placed your order & paid for it in advance. This also indicates what a niche/small (even tiny) business the FAL/L1A1 receiver business is. If they were selling a hundred per day, or even per week, they would have stock, on-hand.

DSA are somewhat different, since they also produce receivers for their own brand of FAL's and do have some stock on hand, depending on the type you are looking for.

I will say, the rants & raves between Mark Graham & the DSA 'team' does make for some fun reading.....however, it doesn't help me too much in locating an L1A1 receiver....at least a receiver Mark is willing to work on !!

Graham
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Old Yesterday, 07:32   #33
DakTo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahamneall View Post
[[B]QUOTE=raubvogel;4608397]

I will say, the rants & raves between Mark Graham & the DSA 'team' does make for some fun reading.....however, it doesn't help me too much in locating an L1A1 receiver....at least a receiver Mark is willing to work on !!

Graham
Tx
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks."
Perhaps that is partially why DSA is not considering L1A1 inch receivers.
1. DSA doesn't build inch SLR's, therefore sales dependency is totally on the public market.
2. The constant bemoaning of DSA receivers by builders and non-builders (echo minions) may be a non-contributing factor to DSA's future business plans.
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Old Yesterday, 08:50   #34
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Cool

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Originally Posted by bigstick61 View Post
Someone here did not too long ago, I forget who. Apparently they can't use the DSA prints to make them for someone else, so if someone wants in-spec receivers made, they'd have to provide the prints themselves. At least that's what I recall being the case.
I seem to recall at least 1 frequent poster has the same set of prints DSA does, and DSA isn't the source of said prints in the first place... I'm also under the impression that LMT made SAInc's excellent M1 Carbine receivers and now produces the same product for Fulton since SAInc ceased production. What's the issue?

Eli
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Old Yesterday, 09:54   #35
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For what it's worth, CNC Warrior makes excellent receivers and when the Galil people were looking for decent receivers they approached CNC Warrior who requested a minimum order and an up front deposit which was quickly met with no problem. If they can make Galil and AK receivers I don't see why they couldn't make a FAL.

I don't know how many people are needing a receiver but maybe a poll of the number and type would be in order. If CNC would consider making a FAL receiver it would undoubtedly be in only one or possibly two types. When CNC did the Galil receivers there were quite a few people, me included, who wanted one with the SA R4 cuts which they couldn't do, but they provided two models, one in IMI pattern and one slab side.

Just something to think on.
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