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Old January 03, 2013, 22:35   #1
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Why use a tube fed shotgun in 3 gun?

I was watching the sportsman channel, 3 gun shooters fightin with the semi auto tube fed shotguns, dropping rounds, going dry, missing targets, and it is obvious a magazine fed shotgun like a saiga 12 or vepr would be a technological improvement, mag reloads would be much easier than trying to stuff single rounds in a tube, like comparing revolvers to mag fed pistols, or am I missing something?
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Old January 03, 2013, 22:44   #2
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I like my FN SLP because it is reliable, accurate, fires quickly, and holds 8+1. I have seen several Saiga's have problems at the matches I've been to. Also, there are times when I have seen the large magazine get in the way.

But, to each their own.

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Old January 03, 2013, 22:44   #3
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What type of three gun ?
What class ?
What division ?

http://www.3gunnation.com/sport_of_three_gun/divisions

http://www.uspsa.org/
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Old January 03, 2013, 22:53   #4
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I have run my SAIGA in 3-gun and it is fast to shoot...
However the SAIGA has it's disadvantages too.. Reloading the SAIGA "FAST" aint easy especially if the Bolt is closed and the mag is full, some have done mods to the BOLT to help alleviate this.
The SAIGA is a great gun in of itself BUT when compared to an M4 (for example) and M4 it aint..
The mags length is also an issue when dealing with certain stages..

You also have "class" designations/restrictions some of which can be if a gun is mag fed or not as well as mag capacity. The guys that are truly FAST can reload a tube fed gun TRULY FAST..

Personally I've had good runs with my gun but others seem convinced the SAIGA is a Jamb/Trouble prone option for 3-gun. As with most any gun there are surely mods that can make the SAIGA a performer at higher levels but at what expense?
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Old January 03, 2013, 23:55   #5
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Old January 04, 2013, 07:22   #6
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As with most any gun there are surely mods that can make the SAIGA a performer at higher levels but at what expense?
About $1500 and your own machine shop. Loads fast(AR15 style straight in) and is reliable.

That said, it still puts you into open.


The fastest loading tube gun out there IMHO, is a Mossberg pump, no gate to get in the way. On a long 25+ round stage a 500/590 can come out even or ahead of a more difficult to load auto.
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Old January 04, 2013, 07:59   #7
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About $1500 and your own machine shop. Loads fast(AR15 style straight in) and is reliable.

That said, it still puts you into open.


The fastest loading tube gun out there IMHO, is a Mossberg pump, no gate to get in the way. On a long 25+ round stage a 500/590 can come out even or ahead of a more difficult to load auto.
Yep, that's why all the top competitors use them over autos...... Please. You have obviously never seen many of the top guys shoot and reload their autos. The loading gate is simply not an issue to the guys who can reload quickly. In reality, the loading gate can assist in that you use it as a ramp to guide the rounds into the tube. I'll put my Beretta Extrema against your 590 over a 30 round course any time, any day and we'll see who comes out on top. I have a 10 round tube on my gun and you only have 8.

The biggest issue with mag fed shotguns over tube fed (other than the open classification) is that many course designers are throwing in different targets in the mix to eliminate or reduce the speed reloading advantage they have. Instead of having being able to shoot all slugs, then change to buck or bird, they are having say 3 buck then 2 slug and then bird or buck again. Its all fine and dandy until you miss a slug shot and have to single load a slug in a Saiga or other mag loader. For a tube loader, its a pain but not bad if you practice.
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Old January 04, 2013, 08:01   #8
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About $1500 and your own machine shop. Loads fast(AR15 style straight in) and is reliable.

That said, it still puts you into open.


The fastest loading tube gun out there IMHO, is a Mossberg pump, no gate to get in the way. On a long 25+ round stage a 500/590 can come out even or ahead of a more difficult to load auto.
That's a LOT of $$, puts the SAIGA into the $2K price point and that's assuming ya bought one right to begin with?

Hmmm, that interesting about the MOSSY.. Certainly has me re-thinking my setup as while I have used my 590 I usually used my 870 with an extended tube.. Might have to give this some more consideration, I like the 590 but it's shorter barrel had me concerned when the longer shots come into play?
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Old January 04, 2013, 08:55   #9
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Yep, that's why all the top competitors use them over autos...... Please. You have obviously never seen many of the top guys shoot and reload their autos. The loading gate is simply not an issue to the guys who can reload quickly. In reality, the loading gate can assist in that you use it as a ramp to guide the rounds into the tube. I'll put my Beretta Extrema against your 590 over a 30 round course any time, any day and we'll see who comes out on top. I have a 10 round tube on my gun and you only have 8.
Note I said can, How often do you see a pump malfunction? How often will a recoil gun malfunction in awkward position? Gas gun when someone changes ammo? Saiga when the owner cuts his hand open needing stitches?

Not talking about pros, just normal every day guys who show up to shoot on the weekend. Turn and burn loading, even the most fumble fingered can shove 2 into a Mossberg in one motion. I can't help the fact arthritis keeps geriatrics from being able to run a pump as it was made to be run.

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Old January 04, 2013, 08:57   #10
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Hmmm, that interesting about the MOSSY.. Certainly has me re-thinking my setup as while I have used my 590 I usually used my 870 with an extended tube.. Might have to give this some more consideration, I like the 590 but it's shorter barrel had me concerned when the longer shots come into play?
Have it tubed, Length of barrel doesn't matter, can get in the way in a house with narrow walls. 2 beads, or some ghost rings will help if you are using a tight choke for distance or slugs.
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Old January 04, 2013, 09:09   #11
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Easy to top off while moving from target to target. Keep her full!
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Old January 04, 2013, 11:12   #12
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Why use a shotgun at all? Oh . . . because in this GAME they decided it was important - pretending there was some actual value to it.

Maybe we should start a 5 gun match. Flintlocks are cool. Or maybe a crossbow. Or 5 guns and a sword . . .. that would be fun.

I like my beretta over/unders. Shooting clay pigeons is fun. I can think of no "tactical" scenario where I'd leave an AR/AK on the table to take a shotgun.
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Old January 04, 2013, 11:31   #13
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Hell, in the muzzle loader club I used to belong to, we had multi weapon trail walk shoots. In addition to shooting your smoke pole, ya had to throw a spear, a knife, and a 'hawk...
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Old January 04, 2013, 11:35   #14
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Tamahawk - Yeah! - that's the icing on the cake.
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Old January 04, 2013, 12:21   #15
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Why use a shotgun at all? Oh . . . because in this GAME they decided it was important - pretending there was some actual value to it.

Maybe we should start a 5 gun match. Flintlocks are cool. Or maybe a crossbow. Or 5 guns and a sword . . .. that would be fun.

I like my beretta over/unders. Shooting clay pigeons is fun. I can think of no "tactical" scenario where I'd leave an AR/AK on the table to take a shotgun.

They include them because shotguns have better knock down power on zombies.
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Old January 04, 2013, 12:28   #16
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I'd pay good money to see Gunplumber use a tomahawk to convert the status of the Undead.

Personally, I'd annoy 'em to death. But that's just me.
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Old January 04, 2013, 12:58   #17
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Personally, I'd annoy 'em to death. But that's just me.
Fify!
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Old January 04, 2013, 17:59   #18
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Why use a shotgun at all? Oh . . . because in this GAME they decided it was important - pretending there was some actual value to it.

Maybe we should start a 5 gun match. Flintlocks are cool. Or maybe a crossbow. Or 5 guns and a sword . . .. that would be fun.

I like my beretta over/unders. Shooting clay pigeons is fun. I can think of no "tactical" scenario where I'd leave an AR/AK on the table to take a shotgun.
exactly. It's interesting how something that was supposed to be more serious/practical has evolved into just another gun game.

Modern pentathlon is pretty cool too.
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Old January 04, 2013, 19:44   #19
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This is the FalFiles.... we shoot He-man:12Ga pump only.
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Old January 04, 2013, 22:02   #20
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I threw my cold steel tomahawk at a pine tree this summer, broke the hickory handle clean off. Better off throwing rocks.
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Old January 04, 2013, 22:04   #21
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I threw my cold steel tomahawk at a pine tree this summer, broke the hickory handle clean off. Better off throwing rocks.
It ain't the tomahawk, it's the Indian.
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Old January 04, 2013, 22:19   #22
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Why use a shotgun at all? Oh . . . because in this GAME they decided it was important - pretending there was some actual value to it.

Maybe we should start a 5 gun match. Flintlocks are cool. Or maybe a crossbow. Or 5 guns and a sword . . .. that would be fun.

I like my beretta over/unders. Shooting clay pigeons is fun. I can think of no "tactical" scenario where I'd leave an AR/AK on the table to take a shotgun.
Mark, I respect you. You're knowledgeable, articulate and an arrogant bastard to boot. Ego can be a good thing.

That being said, the shotgun has place among the arms of the world. Why would our troops use it for door breaching if it was not the most effective weapon? Why would folks use it in close quarters if it didn't allow for quick and deadly engagement (you mean to tell me 9 .38 caliber pellets coming at you ain't dangerous?) And what about hunting upland game birds and other small game.

It has a niche, and in that niche it is effective. I agree the best tool for most jobs is a rifle, but why use a hammer when a screwdriver would work better?

Yeah, reloads are slower. I can do 8 shells in 8 seconds. That's a long time in a fight, but my gun is never dry and I could stop reloading and engage a target at will if needed. It takes me about a second to shoulder and fire from low ready.

I'd also rather have a rifle than a pistol, but what if that's all ya got? Three gun is about demonstrating proficiency on all three guns, not about being the most versatile and effective combat tool (won by the rifle.)
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Old January 04, 2013, 22:21   #23
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exactly. It's interesting how something that was supposed to be more serious/practical has evolved into just another gun game.

Modern pentathlon is pretty cool too.
Yep. And some people use the performance of a gadget in the game, to mean that it is or isn't useful in the real world.
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Old January 04, 2013, 22:22   #24
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Mark, I respect you. You're knowledgeable, articulate and an arrogant bastard to boot. Ego can be a good thing.

That being said, the shotgun has place among the arms of the world. Why would our troops use it for door breaching if it was not the most effective weapon? Why would folks use it in close quarters if it didn't allow for quick and deadly engagement (you mean to tell me 9 .38 caliber pellets coming at you ain't dangerous?) And what about hunting upland game birds and other small game.

It has a niche, and in that niche it is effective. I agree the best tool for most jobs is a rifle, but why use a hammer when a screwdriver would work better?

Yeah, reloads are slower. I can do 8 shells in 8 seconds. That's a long time in a fight, but my gun is never dry and I could stop reloading and engage a target at will if needed. It takes me about a second to shoulder and fire from low ready.

I'd also rather have a rifle than a pistol, but what if that's all ya got? Three gun is about demonstrating proficiency on all three guns, not about being the most versatile and effective combat tool (won by the rifle.)
Dude. The guy's a car-killer.
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Old January 04, 2013, 22:30   #25
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Reminds me of an old game warden I once knew. Guy was as wide as a door and had arms on him like a Missouri mule. Real old school type guy. We were chatting one day and I was admiring a long handled hatchet he had in his truck. He looked at me eyeing it and said "We had qualifications today at the range". The thought of batch of game wardens on the line throwing axes still gives me a chuckle.

Edited to add: As far as shotguns go I know nothing of these 3 gun matches, but I do know a 12 guage pump loaded with slugs does pretty good on bears up close. Not to mention buck on yotes and bobcats at reasonable ranges.
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Old January 04, 2013, 22:37   #26
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Any shotgun that has to be fed from a tube is on the way out.

I know, but it's late, and the Bourbon's good.
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Old January 05, 2013, 00:35   #27
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Tamahawk - Yeah! - that's the icing on the cake.
Here it is.. used by our troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://www.rmjtactical.com/

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Old January 05, 2013, 10:59   #28
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"An aggressive weapon with machismo flair"

That's it, I gotsta get me ones of dem fo shizzle yo!

Actually, I do like the tomahawk better than a machete or K-bar as a weapon but I can't decide if the Kukri is better as a general field tool. Oh who cares, I'll carry all 4. And a Samurai Sword. No - a Ninja sword is cooler. I need a golf bag and a caddy.
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Old January 05, 2013, 11:24   #29
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, the shotgun has place among the arms of the world. Why would our troops use it for door breaching if it was not the most effective weapon?
Doors don't shoot back.

No problem using it as a lock & hinge removal TOOL. I had a 12" 870 for just that purpose.


Quote:
Why would folks use it in close quarters if it didn't allow for quick and deadly engagement (you mean to tell me 9 .38 caliber pellets coming at you ain't dangerous?)
A .69 cal black powder ball coming out you is dangerous too. So is a sharp stick. The question isn't whether the shotgun can kill someone, but if a person should choose a shotgun instead of something else.

[quote] And what about hunting upland game birds and other small game.[quote]

Did you read my post? I have a Beretta BL5, a Silver Snipe, 3 x 870s and Noble SXS - all great for shooting little birdies. They don't shoot back (although the rabbits have been making me nervous).

[quote]It has a niche, and in that niche it is effective. I agree the best tool for most jobs is a rifle, but why use a hammer when a screwdriver would work better? [quote]

So far, the only "better" you've presented is blowing locks, and that is with a particular shell that is not good for much else. CQB? Many people use what they have because it is what they have. They are not given a variety of alternatives from which to choose. I suspect if one were to engage in CQB and were offered any weapon they wanted, the shotgun would be low on the list.

Now some will say "the shotgun is good in the home because of low penetration". They are correct. But they also have their 9mm Glock on the nightstand so I guess penetration isn't really a factor - the .223 will penetrate less than their Glock. Now move them to urban combat. Because that's where CQB normally takes place. Love that shotgun. Oh - you're taking firs from a guy down the street. What are you going to do? Call a time out and ask for a rifle? See - the point isn't that the Shotgun can't do somethings, but that a rifle can do everything that a shotgun can do, and a shotgun cannot do everything a rifle can do. With the exception of shooting little birds and blowing locks - both of which require specialty ammo that is useful for nothing else.


Quote:
Three gun is about demonstrating proficiency on all three guns, not about being the most versatile and effective combat tool (won by the rifle.)
Well then there would be equal value in demonstrating proficiency in the crossbow.
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Old January 05, 2013, 12:09   #30
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Doors don't shoot back.

No problem using it as a lock & hinge removal TOOL. I had a 12" 870 for just that purpose.

So far, the only "better" you've presented is blowing locks, and that is with a particular shell that is not good for much else. CQB? Many people use what they have because it is what they have. They are not given a variety of alternatives from which to choose. I suspect if one were to engage in CQB and were offered any weapon they wanted, the shotgun would be low on the list.
Yes, the breacher is the real 3-gun shooter. The M-4 is the primary weapon and, if you'll look closely, you'll see the backup weapon is a .45 automatic, not the shotgun. The shotgun is for locks, hinges, and anything else that comes up before they can transition to the M-4.
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Old January 05, 2013, 12:17   #31
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Yes, the breacher is the real 3-gun shooter. The M-4 is the primary weapon and, if you'll look closely, you'll see the backup weapon is a .45 automatic, not the shotgun. The shotgun is for locks, hinges, and anything else that comes up before they can transition to the M-4.
It is scary how much that looks like me.
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Old January 05, 2013, 12:39   #32
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Well then there would be equal value in demonstrating proficiency in the crossbow.
Sounds like fun. I need to continue working on my tomahawk throwing more though.
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Old January 05, 2013, 12:42   #33
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It is scary how much that looks like me.
You have an elastic imagination.
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Old January 05, 2013, 12:47   #34
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Are woodies cool again?
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Old January 05, 2013, 19:34   #35
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You have an elastic imagination.
ok, my jaw is a little wider

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Old January 05, 2013, 20:22   #36
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IMO there is a very practical use for shotguns and if shooting 3-gun matches is a way of increasing ones level of skill then I say go to it.

Not only do I think it practical I find it an excellent opportunity to use the shotgun in a manner much diff then shooting clays or widdle birdies.

Hell as far as I'm concerned unless someone is shooting back at you isn't every discipline a "GAME"? Don't we shoot whatever we shoot to hone skills and become better shooters?
I shoot 3-Gun because it allows me to use a lot of diff firearms in a way that I wouldn't be able to otherwise. Mag changes. shoot and move, clearing a malf, or any number of other skills get a chance to be tested. No matter what we do or choose to do "Practice" makes one better, whether it be golf, motorcycle trail riding, bike riding, playing the guitar, road racing (plug in your vehicle of choice), or even shuffleboard (for the resident geriatrics) PRACTICE makes us better.

I'll NEVER be a GO FAST 3-Gun shooter but if each tme I shoot a match I feel like I did something better then before then IMO I've done well. Having FUN doing it is even better..

To PooPoo a specific discipline just doesn't make any sense to me?
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Old January 05, 2013, 20:27   #37
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ok, my jaw is a little wider

Yeah, and your black rectangle is a little smaller, but it looks a lot like the other one, too.
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Old January 05, 2013, 23:48   #38
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IMO there is a very practical use for shotguns and if shooting 3-gun matches is a way of increasing ones level of skill then I say go to it.

Not only do I think it practical I find it an excellent opportunity to use the shotgun in a manner much diff then shooting clays or widdle birdies.
And that practical use is . . .. . what?


Quote:
To PooPoo a specific discipline just doesn't make any sense to me?
Not poopooing anyone's skill at a particular discipline. I've trained hard at increasing my proficiency with single action Colt (Uberti) revolvers, an 1894 lever action, a SxS shotgun, and even a single shot .45-70 Sharps. This year I plan on getting really dirty with a French .69 Flintlock. I want to increase my knowledge of these for its own sake. I can't see picking any of those for a SHTF scenario.

Like the so called "Scout Rifle". If one tries hard enough, one create an extremely limited scenario where one's pet implement may have some advantage over a different implement. But unless one has a porter carrying their golf-bag-o-guns, at some point, one must make choices as to what fits the widest range of scenarios pretty well, and accept it does not fit all scenarios perfectly. So while I still struggle between a carbine (AK, AR) and a battle rifle (FAL, SCAR, G3, M1A), I fail to see how a shotgun is even in the running.

My minimum battery is

self defense handgun
carbine
long range rifle
.22 poaching rifle

Cutting it down to three is tough, but I'd lose the .22. Cutting it down to 2 is tougher. I'd probably ditch the carbine. Cutting it down to one is easy, I'd ditch the handgun. Again, a shotgun isn't even in the running.
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Old January 06, 2013, 00:33   #39
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Yeah, and your black rectangle is a little smaller, but it looks a lot like the other one, too.
Needs a little "Just For Men" as well..







OK, I'm qualified, I need some as well.
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Old January 09, 2013, 17:16   #40
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I have shot both a Saiga and pump shotty's for years in 3-gun.

The Saiga wins if you can cleanly switch from target type to target type. It does have loading issues that can be somewhat mitigated by manual of arms and completely overcome with money.

I prefer the tube shotty's, but mainly cause I have to shoot them for heavy class.

I feed the tube or single load depending on the situation in the stage, both take me about the same amount of time in my practice sessions.

I agree with Mark though, the shotty stages are pretty gameish to me. Still fun though.

I have been throwing tomahawks since I was 8, and consider myself quite good at it. But no way in hell would I ever throw one in combat unless as last resort. We played around with moving targets using log sections we were usually supposed to be splitting, and getting lead and speed correct is tougher than you might expect. Timing for a target running at or away from you would be worse.
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Old January 09, 2013, 17:48   #41
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Have you guys seen the 1216 shotgun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiZgSXfN-BA
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Old January 09, 2013, 23:49   #42
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I did not realize how gamey 3 gun is with the shotgun, like shooting skeets, so I now see how the tube feeder is advantageous. I have never seen a 1216 in a store, it's cool.
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Old January 10, 2013, 12:13   #43
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The 1216 is stuck in open class...where the Saiga's are going to slaughter it.
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Old January 10, 2013, 16:59   #44
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My 870 is my go-to weapon around the house. It's far more common to need it to dispatch a critter on the farm, and my neighbors are too close for me to feel comfortable using a rifle much at all. It stays locked in a quick-access safe cruiser ready with buckshot (birdshot and slugs in the side carrier) and a forearm mounted light, and there have been several occasions when I've grabbed it to investigate a noise in the night. I keep a pistol in the quick access safe next to my pillow, but if there's any time at all I'm going for the shotgun. I can put nine good hits on an intruder more quickly and easily with it than I can my pistol, and then do it again less than a second later. As Mark mentioned - the shotgun is IDEAL for no task, but its utility to me lies in being able to do multiple tasks acceptably. It's kind of the Leatherman of my farm. Of course I'd rather have the correct size combination wrench, but because I'm never sure if I'll need a wrench, screwdriver, pliers, or what I carry a multi-tool, which usually gets me by. For more involved scenarios I go get a specialty tool.

For that reason, I shoot my 870 in 3-gun matches. Many of the scenarios are silly and gamey, but I am much more proficient with it today than I was before shooting 3-gun. Add to that it's pretty darn fun, and I don't see it as a waste of time at all.
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Old January 11, 2013, 09:10   #45
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It ain't the tomahawk, it's the Indian.
That right there is funny! I guess some of you just can't appreciate the fun factor of running through a jungle course blasting waist-level clays hanging from pine trees with a semi-auto 12 guage while stuffing shells in the gun on the move. Or mowing down a plate rack or Texas Star. I guess you have more important things to do like seriously training for TEOTWAWKI or some other debacle. The shotgun is my favorite part of 3-Gun. And I don't care if somebody thinks it is gamey, it gets my fat ass out of the house and moving around with guns.
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