CETME C Kits

[easttex]

I got an email from Sarco on Friday night that CETME C kits in good condition are on sale for $125 each. Looking further into it, I found receiver flats for $70 and whole receivers for $170.

In addition to the expense of a barrel and six other compliance parts, I'd have to hire the assembly and finish work done because I don't currently have the resources available to build this myself.

I like having project guns though and don't mind hoarding parts until I'm ready, which would likely be tax time.

Would it be worth to build a CETME C from a kit as I laid out above? Or, should I try to find a used rifle somewhere?

Thoughts on this?

[raubvogel]

You should agonize whether you should get the parts kit at least until it is $400 so you can then say the usual "I wish I have bought it" people are so found of saying. Or you get it now and then later on build it or sell it.

[hkshooter]

Originally Posted by easttex

I got an email from Sarco on Friday night that CETME C kits in good condition are on sale for $125 each. Looking further into it, I found receiver flats for $70 and whole receivers for $170.

In addition to the expense of a barrel and six other compliance parts, I'd have to hire the assembly and finish work done because I don't currently have the resources available to build this myself.

I like having project guns though and don't mind hoarding parts until I'm ready, which would likely be tax time.

Would it be worth to build a CETME C from a kit as I laid out above? Or, should I try to find a used rifle somewhere?

Thoughts on this?

I've struggled with this very question myself in the past. And I've gathered a kit with original barrel and a correct RTG CETME flat for the project. My problem is the entry fee. I know of only a single builder for these and he charges $1500 plus 922 parts, which he will not build without.
So I either build it myself or have it built and have way more money into it than it's worth. Needless to say the kit is sitting in a storage tub.

I plan to build myself, just need to get off my arse, learn some better welding techniques, and build a jig to roll my flat. The whole project has "GIANT CLUSTERFUCK" written all over it.

To directly answer your question, no, I don't think it's worth it.

[imacoonass01]

Originally Posted by hkshooter

The whole project has "GIANT CLUSTERFUCK" written all over it.

Now I remember why I have not built mine's yet.

[easttex]

Originally Posted by hkshooter

To directly answer your question, no, I don't think it's worth it.

That answers the question, thank you!

[imacoonass01]

Originally Posted by imacoonass01

Now I remember why I have not built mine's yet.

Saying that, I will be building it when I get my HF hydraulic press in the near future (got to finish repairing my shop from Hurricane Harvey first). Got a flat w/ jig to bend and weld, but will just buy the PTR 91 Upper to make it easier on me. I love shooting my Ptr 91 roller locking rifle. When you shoot it, you just know, that you are shooting a bad ass "replica" HK 91 rifle! I just wish they did not ruin my brass. Easttex, maybe we can build them together. Give me a PM shout.

Disclaimer: I also love shooting my FALs and L1A1's.

[adam762]

So I'm waist deep in this....

Ordered just about every jig RTG has. Missing a couple small jigs they are out of stock on but still $1500 or so into tooling from them. Prolly be 1800 before its done, BUT we're rolling flats so it's a little more. Still, we have 6 firm builds scheduled so the offset for the extra jigs is there.

Then there's the press. 20 ton press new from HF was 180 or so after I went and picked it up.

Then the welder. Price out a decent TIG machine. Then price out gas bottle leasing from the welding supply house. Then add $400 for welding equipment like hood, gloves, rod, tungsten, ect.

Now for the lower - the trigger pack. You gonna do that clip and pin yourself? Learning curve and equipment.

Then the refinish- you gonna do that yourself? If you built off a flat, the smiths that refinish may not take your project. If you build off a PTR receiver (not correct for a CETME but whatever) then you'll be 3-500 into the refinish.

I'm way past the point of no return with this. We're going to build from scratch and they're going to be awesome. But I already have much of the machinery and tooling to build and finish, and the knowledge and skills to do so.

CETME/HK stuff is not like the FAL. While the FAL was laborious to machine, it is not hard to assemble by hand. The CETME/HK is VERY easy to produce..... once you have the fixtures and jigs.... but is harder to assemble by hand.

At the end of the day I would say that very much like the FAL, unless you plan to build 6 to 10 rifles and have uses for some of the equipment after the builds, then you are better off to pay someone.

Unless you want something special, and want to build it yourself.....

My CETME kit is a complete unfired parade rifle with all accessories. It will be hard to place a value on it when finished properly. I want it done just so, and my partner in HK crime here has one he is similarly interested in. Then there are other HK platform things that interest us, so.....

But yeah, my other option is to send it to someone I trust to build it. Pay the money. And wait. So, down the rabbit hole I go.

[raubvogel]

My take (if you have not got the hint) is: cheap parts kit at under $130. Remember when AK kits were that much? Buy it. Forget about it for a while. If you build it or get it built, fine. If not, you can sell it and recoup money if not make a profit because supply and demand.

[adam762]

Originally Posted by raubvogel

My take (if you have not got the hint) is: cheap parts kit at under $130. Remember when AK kits were that much? Buy it. Forget about it for a while. If you build it or get it built, fine. If not, you can sell it and recoup money if not make a profit because supply and demand.

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Buy a barrel to go with each kit. Maybe a flat. I almost bought three over the weekend just because they were so cheap. I remember the sub-100 AK kits too. Shoot I remember the sub 100 FAL kits.

I couldn't afford it then and didn't know better anyway. But buy it if you can. Figure the rest out later.

[easttex]

Originally Posted by adam762

Yeah, I'd agree with that. Buy a barrel to go with each kit. Maybe a flat. I almost bought three over the weekend just because they were so cheap. I remember the sub-100 AK kits too. Shoot I remember the sub 100 FAL kits.

I couldn't afford it then and didn't know better anyway. But buy it if you can. Figure the rest out later.

Even if I bought it as an investment, these sound a bit too involved for the mass-market of garage gun cranks to build though?

[Abominog]

Good lord don’t waste your money go get a BREN kit! Not a mark iv that’s a waste of money get a mark ii or iii

[mp]

Originally Posted by hkshooter

I've struggled with this very question myself in the past. And I've gathered a kit with original barrel and a correct RTG CETME flat for the project. My problem is the entry fee. I know of only a single builder for these and he charges $1500 plus 922 parts, which he will not build without.
So I either build it myself or have it built and have way more money into it than it's worth. Needless to say the kit is sitting in a storage tub.

I plan to build myself, just need to get off my arse, learn some better welding techniques, and build a jig to roll my flat. The whole project has "GIANT CLUSTERFUCK" written all over it.

To directly answer your question, no, I don't think it's worth it.

I don't understand the $1500 build cost, and it has not been explained well enough to my satisfaction. I have gathered all the 922 parts (back when I actually cared about such matters) and will be attempting the build from an RTG slab side flat very soon, under the watchful eye of a seasoned roller lock builder who also cannot understand the $1500 assembly fee, and has several CETME C builds under his belt. Wish me luck.

[imacoonass01]

Originally Posted by mp

I don't understand the $1500 build cost, and it has not been explained well enough to my satisfaction. I have gathered all the 922 parts (back when I actually cared about such matters) and will be attempting the build from an RTG slab side flat very soon, under the watchful eye of a seasoned roller lock builder who also cannot understand the $1500 assembly fee, and has several CETME C builds under his belt. Wish me luck.

Good Luck. Where in TX, will this build be happening?

[mp]

Originally Posted by imacoonass01

Good Luck. Where in TX, will this build be happening?

North Austin area.

[APEXgunparts]

Originally Posted by easttex

I got an email from Sarco on Friday night that CETME C kits in good condition are on sale for $125 each. Looking further into it, I found receiver flats for $70 and whole receivers for $170.

In addition to the expense of a barrel and six other compliance parts, I'd have to hire the assembly and finish work done because I don't currently have the resources available to build this myself.

I like having project guns though and don't mind hoarding parts until I'm ready, which would likely be tax time.

Would it be worth to build a CETME C from a kit as I laid out above? Or, should I try to find a used rifle somewhere?

Thoughts on this?

Some years back the gunsmiths at "Hickman Rifles" had the jigs & fixtures to build HK-91's from parts kits.
I did provide the kit, barrel, semi-auto receiver (JLD) and fire control group.
http://www.hickmanrifles.com/

You may want to give them a call and ask if they can assemble a CETME Model C for you.
(719) 633-4680

Richard

[adam762]

Once the tooling is sorted and set up, I don't understand the cost being more than a FAL. Welding, perhaps, but way less machine work... no barrels to shave, no locking shoulders to fit, no frame locks to massage, no gas ports to fiddle with....

But that's just me, and what do I know. The tooling is damned expensive thought. But so was a mill and a lathe.

[hkshooter]

Originally Posted by mp

I don't understand the $1500 build cost, and it has not been explained well enough to my satisfaction. I have gathered all the 922 parts (back when I actually cared about such matters) and will be attempting the build from an RTG slab side flat very soon, under the watchful eye of a seasoned roller lock builder who also cannot understand the $1500 assembly fee, and has several CETME C builds under his belt. Wish me luck.

Call Jeff at Parabellum Combat Systems (PCS) and have him explain it to you. Or look him up on HKPro. He is ghilliebear2000 over there. Personable guy, friendly, very sharp on HK as he should be since he makes a living building them. He quoted me $1500 from start to finish not including 922 parts. Had the PM until just a couple of weeks ago when I cleaned out my old messages.

[Zimm]

The cost to have someone do it can get extreme .im sure the cost of gp would not be the same as a run of the mill builder,also what anyone charges can't compare to doing it yourself .im sure refinish is included in that cost,since welding is involved you have to have bare metal .
I've built a 93 and didn't pay anything for building past kit and barrel and flat made my own parts and jig and assembled
Had less trouble than when I built my fal
Ymmv

[steadfast]

Originally Posted by imacoonass01

Saying that, I will be building it when I get my HF hydraulic press in the near future (got to finish repairing my shop from Hurricane Harvey first). Got a flat w/ jig to bend and weld, but will just buy the PTR 91 Upper to make it easier on me. I love shooting my Ptr 91 roller locking rifle. When you shoot it, you just know, that you are shooting a bad ass "replica" HK 91 rifle! I just wish they did not ruin my brass. Easttex, maybe we can build them together. Give me a PM shout.

Disclaimer: I also love shooting my FALs and L1A1's.

Hey coon, you should pick up a snap-on port buffer. The brass flies out of the ej port off the rubber buffer and leaves no dents on the brass. I reload empties from my 91 clone- they work fine!

[raubvogel]

I got a CETME C for $125 each when they were on sale at Apex. Before that I had a barrel and a flat waiting on a kit. Before that I got from Apex a CETME L and later the barrel (the in-the-white run before the melonite ones) and later a flat. I have already pressed barrel in the CETME L trunnion. After I learn welding enough, I will see about finishing it. If I choose not to build them I do not think I will lose money.

[mp]

Originally Posted by hkshooter

Call Jeff at Parabellum Combat Systems (PCS) and have him explain it to you. Or look him up on HKPro. He is ghilliebear2000 over there. Personable guy, friendly, very sharp on HK as he should be since he makes a living building them. He quoted me $1500 from start to finish not including 922 parts. Had the PM until just a couple of weeks ago when I cleaned out my old messages.

I did speak with Jeff, and still cannot understand the price difference between a G3 build and Cetme C build. I felt like he really had no interest in building the acetone and priced his build to deter finding a crazy to pay the $1500.

[hkshooter]

Originally Posted by mp

I did speak with Jeff, and still cannot understand the price difference between a G3 build and Cetme C build. I felt like he really had no interest in building the acetone and priced his build to deter finding a crazy to pay the $1500.

You could be right, worked with me.
To my knowledge Mark doesnt roll flats or he would be my go to guy for this.

Actually, he's currently not even doing HK work so it really doesn't matter.

[imacoonass01]

Originally Posted by steadfast

Hey coon, you should pick up a snap-on port buffer. The brass flies out of the ej port off the rubber buffer and leaves no dents on the brass. I reload empties from my 91 clone- they work fine!

Hmm.will have to try that. I am afraid to, though. I might not want to shoot my FALs anymore.

[sweir69]

There ARE some challenges to building a CETME, for sure...however, I am VERY close to finishing my first build, and I have to say it's very exciting and rewarding to see it come together!! I say go for it!! Patience is your friend, and caution helps a bit too. But honestly, it's really not all THAT hard.

[GRA556]

Originally Posted by hkshooter

I've struggled with this very question myself in the past. And I've gathered a kit with original barrel and a correct RTG CETME flat for the project. My problem is the entry fee. I know of only a single builder for these and he charges $1500 plus 922 parts, which he will not build without.
So I either build it myself or have it built and have way more money into it than it's worth. Needless to say the kit is sitting in a storage tub.

I plan to build myself, just need to get off my arse, learn some better welding techniques, and build a jig to roll my flat. The whole project has "GIANT CLUSTERFUCK" written all over it.

To directly answer your question, no, I don't think it's worth it.

Thanks for this most honest and well-reasoned answer. I have also considered such a kit build but I do not know how I would justify the expense when the PTR models are available. Although they aren't cheap it carries a warranty from them and I'm not at the mercy of only 1 or 2 people in the world that will build but only at a price at or exceeding the PTR.

While Trump is still in we need the NRA, GOA, and NAGR to lobby for a removal of the ban on foreign receivers and such. Retailers sure would appreciate it.

[adam762]

I had a PTR receiver for this kit at one point then decided that would be like building a BGS B on an Imbel gear logo. Sure you can. But *ICK*.

So I sold the receiver and hoped someone would come along with the correct CETME receiver. The flat appears to be as close as I'm going to get. And, circumstances are such that buying all the fancy tooling is possible now.

There will always be guys willing to build them, or try. There won't always be kits. Buy a couple with barrels and flats. Sit on them and start looking for locals doing builds if you can. Go in with guys on equipment. Read a lot, take your time. I've had my kit for 12 years I think. It took me long enough.

[gunplumber]

You want to build from flats - go for it. You are now the manufacturer, so make sure you get your excise tax paid on it with quarterly filings. And make sure you have a master tig welder with at least a decade of experience and all the appropriate heat sinks. And then go ahead and charge "as little as a FAL" which would you doing the rest of the build (after the flat) for free.

And then hope your customer can actually pass a background check to get the finished rifle back on a 4473.

Me, when I was doing HK type builds. "Send me a complete serial-numbered receiver and parts kit and I send you back a complete gun." No excise paperwork, no 4473 - gunsmith & return. And that's around $1000. FAL - $550. And I'd rather do three FALs than one HK.

MUCH less work, and much less risk.

Oh, you can still find PTR GIs for around $1000. So from a cost-effective perspective . . . it ain't.

I still do subcontract work for HK USA Training division, but I've suspended all HK (and AK) work for the time being. As long as there is enough FAL work, why put in twice the effort for the same payment?

[adam762]

I'm not interested in manufacturing for others. I'm doing it because, as mentioned, it's the only way to get the receiver I want. Same reason I went to all the trouble to make the BGS B barrel conversions. Historical authenticity means more to some than others and while you may not see the value in it, other people do and are willing to do what it takes to make that happen for their build.

I don't know exactly who you are referring to in your previous post, but do remember that I'm plenty experienced with building the FAL rifle. I also know the ins and outs of the responsibilities of an 07 manufacturer, and just because that business never got to the receiver manufacturing stage doesn't mean I didn't have my plans pretty well made if it had happened.

I haven't built an HK yet so I have no experience there. The flat roll is an animal all on it's own. My comments regarding builds comparing them to FAL builds were speculating on the time required to assemble a complete commercial receiver, such as the PTR that I once owned. As you're aware, a good FAL build can require some lathe work, some mill work, or both. Certainly a good HK build will require some good welding. ALL OF THOSE THINGS are areas that I've demonstrated serious competency. I'm not at all worried about my ability to make a quality product for myself or for the local fellow I'm going in on things with.

Again, not sure who you were referring to with your previous post, but in case you weren't paying attention the last two or three years, I quit doing commercial gunsmithing in 16 and it was overdue then. I'm quite happy in aviation and am not interested in playing any larger role than 'advanced hobbyist' at this stage.

I may eat my words on the relative ease of HK assembly. But, looking at the jigs and fixtures arriving from RTG, it seems that good tooling can take a LOT of the hassle out of an HK build, which makes sense, since it was why much of the world abandoned FAL production for the HK platform in the first place.

But we'll see. I'm tooling up to build my own. I have specific desires as far as features, and have the abilities to make all that happen.

Some of these hobbyist builders figure it out. We were all new to these platforms at one point or another. The hobbyist who mucks up a barrel isn't all that different than the smith who purposefully obliterates original numbers and marking to sanitize or force match a part. The industry needs them both, regardless of how little regard they may have for one another.

Buy a kit or two. Do homework. Learn. Make your own tools. Don't be in a hurry. But yeah, it's more than screwing a barrel on and headspacing. A lot more.

[gunplumber]

Originally Posted by adam762

I don't know exactly who you are referring to

Who are you replying to?

I was referring to "you (general)" not "you (specific)"

Perhaps "If one wishes to . .. "

[Klaus Von Richter]

Originally Posted by imacoonass01

Good Luck. Where in TX, will this build be happening?

Most likely at my place. If you wanna come down, you are more than welcome.

[Klaus Von Richter]

Also $1500 is pretty steep for an HK build.

[Klaus Von Richter]

Originally Posted by adam762

I'm not interested in manufacturing for others. I'm doing it because, as mentioned, it's the only way to get the receiver I want. Same reason I went to all the trouble to make the BGS B barrel conversions. Historical authenticity means more to some than others and while you may not see the value in it, other people do and are willing to do what it takes to make that happen for their build.

I don't know exactly who you are referring to in your previous post, but do remember that I'm plenty experienced with building the FAL rifle. I also know the ins and outs of the responsibilities of an 07 manufacturer, and just because that business never got to the receiver manufacturing stage doesn't mean I didn't have my plans pretty well made if it had happened.

I haven't built an HK yet so I have no experience there. The flat roll is an animal all on it's own. My comments regarding builds comparing them to FAL builds were speculating on the time required to assemble a complete commercial receiver, such as the PTR that I once owned. As you're aware, a good FAL build can require some lathe work, some mill work, or both. Certainly a good HK build will require some good welding. ALL OF THOSE THINGS are areas that I've demonstrated serious competency. I'm not at all worried about my ability to make a quality product for myself or for the local fellow I'm going in on things with.

Again, not sure who you were referring to with your previous post, but in case you weren't paying attention the last two or three years, I quit doing commercial gunsmithing in 16 and it was overdue then. I'm quite happy in aviation and am not interested in playing any larger role than 'advanced hobbyist' at this stage.

I may eat my words on the relative ease of HK assembly. But, looking at the jigs and fixtures arriving from RTG, it seems that good tooling can take a LOT of the hassle out of an HK build, which makes sense, since it was why much of the world abandoned FAL production for the HK platform in the first place.

But we'll see. I'm tooling up to build my own. I have specific desires as far as features, and have the abilities to make all that happen.

Some of these hobbyist builders figure it out. We were all new to these platforms at one point or another. The hobbyist who mucks up a barrel isn't all that different than the smith who purposefully obliterates original numbers and marking to sanitize or force match a part. The industry needs them both, regardless of how little regard they may have for one another.

Buy a kit or two. Do homework. Learn. Make your own tools. Don't be in a hurry. But yeah, it's more than screwing a barrel on and headspacing. A lot more.

Good tooling makes a big difference, but I wouldn’t look at RTG for that.