The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapons Discussion > Ammunition

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 29, 2012, 17:22   #1
gunnut1
Moderator
Gold Contributor
 
gunnut1's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1877
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The great Republic of Texas USA!!!!!
Posts: 10,839
Smile 30-338 or.30 belted Newton

OK I bought barreled action from a board member. AWP101 and I got to looking at it and found a marking on the side of the barrel that was stamped 30-338. After doing a lot of research, I found that this was a wildcat specifically designed for 1000 yard competition. The chamber is cut for a belted magnum round. I have done more research and found that the 300 Winchester Magnum is a .338 necked down to .30 which is what the .30 belted Newton or 30-338 is. <(THIS IS BAD INFO. I WAS WRONG.)Yes I can reform other brass to to work but them I will have the wrong head stamp.

What I have not found in my research is a definitive source that says I can substitute the 300 win mag for the 30-338. Every source I have found states that the 300 win mag is just a necked down to .30 caliber .338. Can you guys help me out here? If I have to reform brass to get the correct cartridge then I can do that. Even a source for 30-338 magnum brass would be helpful.

I have not done a chamber cast yet. Just need to figure out how to get the Cerrosafe into the chamber with out making a mess.

And I would really prefer not to get into an argument whether Newton actually developed the cartridge or not. I don't really care who developed the cartridge.

Thanks folks!
__________________
Texas, it's a state of mind!!!!

The human race is not the pinnacle of evolution. We are but one evolutionary out come.

Last edited by gunnut1; May 03, 2012 at 18:56.
gunnut1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29, 2012, 18:24   #2
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,372
The base to shoulder dimension on the .300 Winchester Magnum is a lot longer than the .30-.338. 2.196" versus 2.040" for the .30-.338. OAL is longer for the .300 too.

My 1978 model Sierra loading manual lists the .30-.338, and says that cases can be formed by necking up 7mm Remington magnum brass, but I don't trust that. The base to shoulder length on a 7 mag is 1.970", which is .070" shorter than the .338 case. That could be an easy recipe for a case head separation.

I think the barrel is a good candidate for turning into a .300 Winchester Magnum. You could do it by hand without removing the barrel form the action. Unless you just want to have a wildcat.

Last edited by Right Side Up; May 01, 2012 at 03:41.
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 29, 2012, 18:27   #3
HighRatMaster
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
HighRatMaster's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 19296
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Oleta, CA USA
Posts: 2,624
That is bad info in the original post.

The 30-338 and the 308 Norma Magnum are the same, the 300 Winchester mag is a different cat. All are based on the 458 Win. but the 300 Win. has the shoulder moved forward and a shorter neck than the 338 and 30-338. The 30-338 is simply a 338 necked down, headspaces the same, like a 308 and 243 or 30/06 and 270 Win. The bolt will not close if you put a 300 into a 30-338 chamber. HTH
__________________
Metric FAL parts for sale, PM me.

It doesn't matter what you miss them with.
HighRatMaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29, 2012, 18:37   #4
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,372
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighRatMaster View Post

The 30-338 and the 308 Norma Magnum are the same,
Not really. The Norma is .045" longer on the base to shoulder, and .059" longer on case length. It sits in between the .30-338 and the .300 Winchester.
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 29, 2012, 18:58   #5
gunseller
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 10120
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Midwest
Posts: 1,691
The 30-338 and the 308 Norma are close enough the use the same reloading data. You really need a chamber cast as the 308 Norma is a factory round with stated dimensions. The 30-338 is a wildcat without standard dimensions. The 300 Win is a longer case. I own a 308 Norma and it will put 5 rounds into 5/8 of an inch or less at 200 yards. Mine was custom built in the early 1960s using a Douglas barrel, FN benchrest action and a custom stock. It had less than 100 rounds through it when I aquired the rifle from the man who it was built for, I believe the round count. The cartage was developed at the same time by several people whe thought Winchester would just neck down their 338 Win to make their expected 30 cal round. Winchester did not, they developed a round with a slightly longer body giving it more powder capasity and there for a little more speed. Norma had introduced their 308 Norma Mag before Winchester introduced their 300 Win mag round. Yes you can neck up 7 MM Rem mag brass to make 30-338 brass. Although if I was going to neck brass I would start with 338 Win mag brass as necking down works better than necking up. Necks get thin when you neck up. Have fun with the rifle when you get it in a stock. What kind of action is it?
Steve
gunseller is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 29, 2012, 19:05   #6
gunnut1
Moderator
Gold Contributor
 
gunnut1's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1877
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The great Republic of Texas USA!!!!!
Posts: 10,839
Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Right Side Up View Post
Not really. The Norma is .045" longer on the base to shoulder, and .059" longer on case length. It sits in between the .30-338 and the .300 Winchester.
Exactly what I have been reading.

This has been an interesting project so far. I have learned a lot. The barreled action is actually a sporterized P17 Eddystone. The bore looks great. No pitting That I can find. The rear sight ears have been milled off. I think it will make a great looking sporter.


I think I like the possibility of having a wild cat. I had never heard of a 30-338 until I got this setup. Everyone has a 300 win mag or a 30 Norma mag but not many people have a 30-338 wildcat. The thought really intrigues me.

If you use the 7mm mag than the case has to be fireformed to the chamber.

I have an email in to Quality Cartridges to see if they have the brass. That will make the situation easier. I think that Remington also has brass.
__________________
Texas, it's a state of mind!!!!

The human race is not the pinnacle of evolution. We are but one evolutionary out come.
gunnut1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 29, 2012, 19:51   #7
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,372
I think the safest thing to do is buy .338 brass and neck it down. No fire-forming needed. Reduced chance for a separated case head.
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 29, 2012, 20:30   #8
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,372
I dug out my copy of Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders by P.O. Ackley. The .30 Newton is listed as being a .338 Winchester Magnum case necked down to .30 caliber.

My Sierra reloading manual says that Fred Huntington of RCBS was believed to be the first one to neck the .338 down to .30.

Who really knows.

Edit: I thought about building a rifle in this caliber a long time ago, but ended up buying a 7mm-300 Weatherby from a buddy that Howard Wolfe built (he was switching up to a .30-378. He knew I liked rifles and had the knowledge to form cases and work up loads). I fell in love with that caliber and have 3 now.

Wildcats are a lot of fun. It's nice to have something that is different, and is a reminder of the old days.

Last edited by Right Side Up; April 30, 2012 at 01:52.
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 30, 2012, 07:01   #9
Thomas
Senior Member
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 7451
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Central Kentucky
Posts: 935
30-338

I got one last year. Price was right. Finish on the rifle looks nasty. The park is almost purple on the receiver. It is a 30-338 Win mag. Came with dies, and a bunch of brass.

I did not really buy it to shoot as it is a converted WWII bolt rifle. It is a converted 1903A4 sniper rifle. My plans are to use the receiver and build it back to original. Then take the extra parts and build the 338 back up on a standard 03-A3 receiver that already had been drilled and tapped for scope.

I already had a 03-A3 scoped sporter to use for parts. It will be a fun project.

If you are not familiar with the 1903A4 it is the sniper rifle used in the D-day beach landing in Saving Private Ryan. It came from the Remington factory set up with scope.
__________________
Who am I to Judge.
Thomas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30, 2012, 08:50   #10
gunnut1
Moderator
Gold Contributor
 
gunnut1's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1877
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The great Republic of Texas USA!!!!!
Posts: 10,839
I don't think mine is a factory gun. The scope mounts are drilled on the front ring where the identification information is. The marking on the side of the barrel are: PGC 30-338

Last night I was winding down after a day of playing range office at my club and I got to fiddling with the barreled action. I cleaned the bore and found it is in better shape than I thought. I then started on the outside. The more I cleaned one thing became apparent. The barreled action has a very thin chrome plating on it. I am pretty sure it is chrome but it could be nickel. There is some very light pitting on the outside but nothing too bad. Now I need to decide if I should continue as is or send it out to be replated. I like the way it looks.

The more I fiddle with this thing, the more interesting it becomes.
__________________
Texas, it's a state of mind!!!!

The human race is not the pinnacle of evolution. We are but one evolutionary out come.
gunnut1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 30, 2012, 17:38   #11
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,372
Could PGC be the initials of the company or gunsmith?
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 01, 2012, 03:44   #12
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,372
Also, make sure to check if the chamber is set up for a tight neck. If it is you'll need to neck turn your brass for some clearance.

I can go as tight as .002" neck clearance on my 7mm-300's, but .004" shoots just as accurately, so that what's I aim for.
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 01, 2012, 16:46   #13
rbswyo
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 36187
Join Date: May 2008
Location: wyo
Posts: 224
you could always just buy 30-338 brass.
http://www.qual-cart.com/
rbswyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 02, 2012, 08:04   #14
yovinny
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,773
Or you could just ream it to 300WM.
You'll not only save a bunch of coin on speciality reload dies, plus form dies or very expensive brass, but you'll increase the resale appeal and value.
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 02, 2012, 16:01   #15
kennaquhair
Member
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 19933
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Southern California (PRK)
Posts: 375
The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, Third Edition indicates that 30-338 Winchester Magnum is made from .338 Winchester Mag -- anneal case neck and run it into the 30-338 FL sizer. Trim and chamfer. Shoulder angle on the 30-338 is just a skosh less but everything except the neck dia is the same so you might be able to just neck size and fire form.

The 300 Win Mag is a different beast. Different length to shoulder, different shoulder angle, different body angles, different length. Every source that you have found re the 300 Winchester Magnum being a necked down .338 Winchester Magnum is wrong. In major diameters there is enough congruity that you could make .338 Winchester Magnum from 300 Winchester Magnum, but not the other way around.

Grafs shows 30-338 Winchester Magnum unprimed cases from Quality Cartridge in stock at $39.59 per box of 20.
http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/...ategoryId/745?
__________________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. -- Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut

Last edited by kennaquhair; May 02, 2012 at 16:08. Reason: Added Grafs source for cartridge brass
kennaquhair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 02, 2012, 18:16   #16
gunnut1
Moderator
Gold Contributor
 
gunnut1's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1877
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The great Republic of Texas USA!!!!!
Posts: 10,839
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbswyo View Post
you could always just buy 30-338 brass.
http://www.qual-cart.com/
See my other post entitled: .30 Belted Newton

Sure would like to get this thing going.
__________________
Texas, it's a state of mind!!!!

The human race is not the pinnacle of evolution. We are but one evolutionary out come.
gunnut1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 02, 2012, 21:17   #17
kennaquhair
Member
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 19933
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Southern California (PRK)
Posts: 375
I have sort of lost track of what you want. Do you want brass that will fit the chamber that is stamped on the barrel of your rifle and which has a proper headstamp? Grafs has 30-338 Win Mag cartridge cases made by Quality Cartridge available today for $39.59 per 20 shipped - with a proper headstamp. Your thread ".30 belted Newton brass group buy interest" suggests that you want people to go in on a group buy for the 30-338 Win Mag cartridge case at $84.00 per 20, with the difference being that the the headstamp on the cartridge will read .30 belted Newton instead of .30-338 Win Mag?
__________________
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But, in practice, there is. -- Jan L. A. van de Snepscheut

Last edited by kennaquhair; May 02, 2012 at 21:18. Reason: cartridges are loaded ammo. cartridge cases are not.
kennaquhair is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 03, 2012, 08:26   #18
rbswyo
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 36187
Join Date: May 2008
Location: wyo
Posts: 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnut1 View Post
See my other post entitled: .30 Belted Newton

Sure would like to get this thing going.
well, my opinion is you should get brass head stamped 30-338 as that is how your barrel is stamped. having hunted overseas in many different countries, i can tell you this is a necessity for convenience in passing customs.
not to mention it's half the price! and already available.
rbswyo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 03, 2012, 12:11   #19
gunnut1
Moderator
Gold Contributor
 
gunnut1's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1877
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The great Republic of Texas USA!!!!!
Posts: 10,839
The correct nomenclature for the 30-338 is the .30 Belted Newton. They are one in the same. I was just thinking it would be cool to have the proper headstamp on the cartridges.

Here is the email.

Quote:
Gary,

30-338 Win Mag has been called 30 Belted Newton. I am unsure if it was ever referred to as 30-338 Newton. We could do the 30-338 Newton headstamp, let us know if you would like us to quote this for you. If you have any questions, we will be more than happy to help.

Thank you,

Pete at Quality Cartridge

When I initially emailed Qual Cart and they advised that the proper name for the 30-338 round was .30 Belted Newton.
I contacted Qual Cart and asked them what a run of cartridge headstamped .30 Belted Newton would cost. The high price you see in for the following things:

500 rounds of .30 Belted Newton brass: 974.25
Engineering and setup charges: 1100.00
Shipping and insurance 26.95

Total 2101.10

And you are completely correct. I am asking for interested a .30 Belted Newton headstamp cartridge group buy. If people are not interested the is OK because I have nothing invested. I just though it would be neat if we had cartridge that were kind of rare.

Qual Cart states at the end of the estimate the following.
Quote:
Cases will have your proprietary headstamp and will be sole only to you.
If you want to reduce the engineering charge, we will split the cost 50/50 with you if we are allowed to sell the cases industry wide.
Lead time is 30 weeks.
Engineering&setup charge is for the design and setup of the headstamp tooling. It does not constitute ownership of any tooling. All tooling is the exclusive property of, and to be maintained by, Quality Cartridges.
Engineering & setup charge is a ONE-Time expense fir that caliber/headstamp. We maintain the tooling and cover and cost associated with maintenance and repair of the tooling.
__________________
Texas, it's a state of mind!!!!

The human race is not the pinnacle of evolution. We are but one evolutionary out come.
gunnut1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 03, 2012, 13:34   #20
chet
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 1082
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 4,437
Quote:
Originally Posted by HighRatMaster View Post
That is bad info in the original post.
All are based on the 458 Win.
Heresy. The .375H&H is the center of the universe.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyV1966 View Post
While you may find me difficult to comprehend perhaps you'll think I've had to many Jack and Cokes tonight. Clearly you prefer Dogma and Lies.
chet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 06, 2012, 04:47   #21
gunnut1
Moderator
Gold Contributor
 
gunnut1's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1877
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The great Republic of Texas USA!!!!!
Posts: 10,839
I have ordered more parts for the barreled receiver. I also order some 30-338 brass from Grafs. Now I need to start looking for stocks and optics. It is coming together!!!!
__________________
Texas, it's a state of mind!!!!

The human race is not the pinnacle of evolution. We are but one evolutionary out come.
gunnut1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22, 2016, 02:18   #22
gunnut1
Moderator
Gold Contributor
 
gunnut1's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1877
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The great Republic of Texas USA!!!!!
Posts: 10,839
They say that good things come to those that wait. I waited. 4 years to be exact. I put the barrel action in my gun safe and basically forgot about it. I was scrounging around in the safe a couple of months ago and stumbled on the barreled action. I had gotten to a point to where I could not go any further without the help from a gunsmith. One of our club member is a master gun smith and I enlisted his help. I took all of my parts to him and he finished the gun for me. Pretty cheap too.

Now I just need to load some cartridges, buy a scope for it and head to the range.
__________________
Texas, it's a state of mind!!!!

The human race is not the pinnacle of evolution. We are but one evolutionary out come.
gunnut1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22, 2016, 06:52   #23
VALMET
Curio & Relic
Bronze Contributor
 
VALMET's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1826
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 2,423
That's awesome news- let us know how it shoots. And post a pic or two...
__________________
"That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is a symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there." -George Orwell, 1940.

"Dammit Smithers this is brain surgery, not rocket science!" -C. Montgomery Burns
VALMET is offline   Reply With Quote
Old August 22, 2016, 10:30   #24
FriendBesto
Registered
Contributor
 
FriendBesto's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 77523
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Posts: 221
I had a .30-.338 1000yd gun built on a Rem700 LA. I used .338WM brass and once through the die they are ready to go.
The .30-.338 has a longer neck and shorter body than the 300WM. You can load longer match bullets in them and they will still fit in the magazine box.
I had a 30" barrel and was pushing Sierra 190's at 2950 with no pressure signs.
I had excellent results with Hodgdon 4831 Short Cut.
FriendBesto is online now   Reply With Quote
Old September 09, 2016, 15:31   #25
gunnut1
Moderator
Gold Contributor
 
gunnut1's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 1877
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: The great Republic of Texas USA!!!!!
Posts: 10,839
This is confusing. My gunsmith tells me that the 30-338 is almost the same as the 308 Norma mag. But there is the 30-338 belted Newton, 30 Win mag, 30-338 Win mag and who knows how many different other 30-338 something or another are out there.

I have some .308 Norma mag that I am going to anneal them and run through my 30 -338 dies. I think that will work.

If I understand correctly, the belted magnums headspace off of the belt anyway so the shoulder is kind of mute concerning headspace.
__________________
Texas, it's a state of mind!!!!

The human race is not the pinnacle of evolution. We are but one evolutionary out come.
gunnut1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 09, 2016, 16:22   #26
HighRatMaster
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
HighRatMaster's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 19296
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Oleta, CA USA
Posts: 2,624
25 years ago I had a Smith Corona 03A3 reamed to 30-338. I used RCBS 30-338 dies to size any brass I had on hand. It had a 4 groove barrel and shot really well, sub moa for 5 round groups. I used W-W 7mm Rem mag, W-W 338 Win mag and 308 Norma mag. brass and H4831. With Nosler 180gr boat tails I managed to put a hole in this guy at slightly over 800 yards.



__________________
Metric FAL parts for sale, PM me.

It doesn't matter what you miss them with.
HighRatMaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old September 09, 2016, 17:34   #27
easttex
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 20438
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 3,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnut1 View Post
This is confusing. My gunsmith tells me that the 30-338 is almost the same as the 308 Norma mag. But there is the 30-338 belted Newton, 30 Win mag, 30-338 Win mag and who knows how many different other 30-338 something or another are out there.

I have some .308 Norma mag that I am going to anneal them and run through my 30 -338 dies. I think that will work.

If I understand correctly, the belted magnums headspace off of the belt anyway so the shoulder is kind of mute concerning headspace.
Make a chamber cast and order a full length sizing die.

Or, make a chamber cast and use some calipers and a depth mic to take some measurements and figure out exactly what you have. Then go accordingly from there.

Wildcats most often share no standardized dimensions and specially ground reamers add even more uncertainty to the mix. What you have is somebody's old project rifle and the FALer you bought it from may not even be the original owner so who really knows what you have. If you're this unsure about the dimensions of a non-standard cartridge I'd really recommend you play it safe and use some Cerrosafe. Chances are all you have is a 30-388Win but I doubt any of us here are going to be able to really make a definitive statement one way or the other.

Safety aside, making a chamber cast might also prevent you from needlessly spending a bunch of money on brass and dies you don't need. Sure would such to spend a few hundred on dies and components to find out none of them fit!
__________________
Chance favors the prepared mind.

Molon labe
easttex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 02, 2018, 20:02   #28
ronnymi
Senior Member
Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 11421
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Washington State
Posts: 661
30 Belted Newton

Here's my story.

Mom and Dad bought Winchester Model 70 featherweight 308 rifles in the early 50's. Dad had his reamed out to 30 Belted Newton a few years later for elk hunting in Eastern Washington. Mom killed more Mule deer than Dad and as many elk with her 308. She also killed several Moose in Alaska hunting with Dad. However after meeting a few brown bear she had her 308 reamed out to 30 BN. The ream had been sharpened so her model 70 will shoot brass loaded from 338. Dad's requires 375 H&H brass necked and trimmed since the 338 brass is too short in the neck length.


Mom is still alive but at 98 she has not hunted for a few years. Now I have both rifles and I am starting to reload for them. I have Dad's dies, sample cartridges and reloading his reloading data. Luckily I watch Dad reload and describe the history of these rifles and reloading for them.


Thanks everyone for the info on 30-338/30 belted Newton reloading.
ronnymi is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 02, 2018, 23:05   #29
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,372
^^^^ Good post.
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 03, 2018, 05:33   #30
raubvogel
Registered
Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 64403
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,993
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronnymi View Post
Mom is still alive but at 98 she has not hunted for a few years.
What kind of son you are for not making a tripod so she can operate rifle as heavy machine gun? I mean Sarco and others sell Maxin bases with wheels (somewhere in http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/mounts.aspx I think)! Once that is done, thread it to use a FAL combo thingie and train her on rifle grenades.
__________________
All I'm really asking for here is a knife that will not jam and a unicorn that doesn't need sharpening. Will_Power
It's been my experience that all you really need to harvest a deer is a car. They come right through the windshield just fine. 357ross
That poop is priceless. MFC
raubvogel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 03, 2018, 07:42   #31
easttex
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 20438
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Fort Worth, TX
Posts: 3,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by gunnut1 View Post
OK I bought barreled action from a board member. AWP101 and I got to looking at it and found a marking on the side of the barrel that was stamped 30-338. After doing a lot of research, I found that this was a wildcat specifically designed for 1000 yard competition. The chamber is cut for a belted magnum round. I have done more research and found that the 300 Winchester Magnum is a .338 necked down to .30 which is what the .30 belted Newton or 30-338 is. <(THIS IS BAD INFO. I WAS WRONG.)Yes I can reform other brass to to work but them I will have the wrong head stamp.

What I have not found in my research is a definitive source that says I can substitute the 300 win mag for the 30-338. Every source I have found states that the 300 win mag is just a necked down to .30 caliber .338. Can you guys help me out here? If I have to reform brass to get the correct cartridge then I can do that. Even a source for 30-338 magnum brass would be helpful.

I have not done a chamber cast yet. Just need to figure out how to get the Cerrosafe into the chamber with out making a mess.

And I would really prefer not to get into an argument whether Newton actually developed the cartridge or not. I don't really care who developed the cartridge.

Thanks folks!
Just to be safe, get some Cerrosafe and do a chamber cast so you can take some measurements and confirm what you have. You never know what the last owner intended to do here.
__________________
Chance favors the prepared mind.

Molon labe
easttex is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 04, 2018, 09:01   #32
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by easttex View Post
Just to be safe, get some Cerrosafe and do a chamber cast so you can take some measurements and confirm what you have. You never know what the last owner intended to do here.
I do chamber casts on all my overbore high wear chambers measure and mark them then put them up so can later take comparison casts to ensure am on track with my throat lapping and predict eventual barrel replacement. Also cast all my match chambers and wildcats. Helps in keeping track, setting up dies if want to bump shoulders occasionally, etc. Cerrosafe is inexpensive and been on sale for the bigger blocks at Brownell's for a while though it's cost is a small deal compared to knowledge you gain. I looked up the cartridge in question in my Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions, P.O. Ackley books and several other references as own over 85 reloading manuals last count going back to pre WW II.

Have nothing of significance to add to the discussion on options for parent and forming brass just remember if do many operations annealing is important to keep shoulders and necks from getting brittle. Sounds like this project is a labor of love, you want brass headstamped a particular way and found someone to do it then go for it. Odds are they will run some extra while running yours as setup is usually the biggest part of job and offer to others who want the same type headstamps,

I have dozens of cartridges formed from different cases and am very careful in my packaging and in some cases even put seria make, model and number on a box or lot so it goes in correct rifle especially if heirs are sorting through the pile and find 30-06 head stamps necked down to 25-06 or even formed all the way down to 22-250 (boat load of work). Getting proper headstamps then possibly having matching info stamped on barrel would simplify the equation. If going to leave barrel marked 30-338 might consider running cases marked as such so heirs have less trouble figuring out what is what. As others have stated pics would be nice.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 04, 2018, 10:35   #33
V guy
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
V guy's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 10282
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: miami
Posts: 16,316
Like was mentioned...........magnum cases all headspace on the belt, not the shoulder.

A hs gage for any magnum calibre, is that short ,little dinky magnum gage, with the belt on it, the correct distance from the bolt face.
https://www.precisionreloading.com/c...=FRS&i=BG300MG

Last edited by V guy; October 04, 2018 at 10:41.
V guy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 04, 2018, 11:58   #34
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,629
I am going to depart from the crowd here. Belted magnum cases often have varying belt measurements and for precision reloading go ahead and get a good chamber cast of use a fire formed case from your rifle and head space off the shoulder as would any other case. Google the subject and will find threads like this everywhere plus quite a few technical articles. If get time will scan and post some written stuff from older specialty reloading books on the subject.

http://www.larrywillis.com/headspace.html

https://gundigest.com/more/how-to/be...myth-dispelled

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...acing.3406956/

Google "headspacing belted magnums off the shoulder" and knock yourself out. With my 7mm Rem Mags which shoot heavy get double case life and 1/4 to 1/2 MOA increase in accuracy headspacimg off shoulder. Only time this does not apply is on cases that do not have a shoulder or significant shoulder and must use the belt. Otherwise determine you chamber dimensions and if bumping shoulder back don't even consider the belt. I will often neck size only with 7mm till case gets enough springback closing the bolt becomes difficult.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 04, 2018, 13:01   #35
Tazman1602
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 80461
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Alanson, Michigan
Posts: 62
Boy this thread albeit a few years old has been an extremely interesting read and I have enjoyed the stories immensely.....thank you.

Art
__________________
____________________________________________
Pappys Rifle Shop
Alanson, Michigan
Tazman1602 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 04, 2018, 14:22   #36
justashooter
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 5967
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: york, pa.
Posts: 8,206
a belted and shouldered should be sized for fit, fireformed in first loading, and only neck-sized for subsequent reloading for use in a particular rifle, depending on shoulder for head-spacing. headspacing on belt can be problematic and a full shoulder set-back re-sizing can shorten case life by causing head separation.
__________________
If the concept of heading on down to the local Home Depot and transforming $100 worth of random pipe bits into a killing machine doesn’t appeal to you, you’re a frikkin' pansy. Also, you’re probably sane and will live significantly longer than I will.

Nonetheless you disgust me, and I take comfort in the knowledge that your obituary will be nowhere near as humorous as mine.


The next time I hear "THE RANGE IS NOW HOT", it just wont be the same.

Max tried another question. "What sort of people live about here?"
"In THAT direction," the Jin said, waving its right paw round, "lives a Han: And in THAT direction," waving the other paw, "lives a Ming Hare. Visit either you like: they're both mad."
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Max remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Jin: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Max.
"You must be," said the Jin, "or you wouldn't have come here."
justashooter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 04, 2018, 18:38   #37
hueyville
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
hueyville's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,629
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tazman1602 View Post
Boy this thread albeit a few years old has been an extremely interesting read and I have enjoyed the stories immensely.....thank you.

Art
I didn't notice this thread began in 2012 was resurrected in 2016 and now in 2018. I try to do the same as hate the repeating thread "which magazine is best for 6.8 AR 15" and similar that whenever rolls off page one or here hasn't been active in past 30 days rolls off unless change your search dates at bottom of page and the same simple question gets beat to death for about ten days, is abandoned then rolls off and is repeated. If I seem to remember a subjet being discussed will at least click the "last 100 days" and sometimes "last year" tab then go through till find the thread on subject that has hashed out a large majority of information applicable to my newer question or additional information. I think it makes for more informative threads and less repeating of same information every 30 to 45 days after it drops from page one.

Until had a 7mm Practical built followed by a second worked my 7mm Rem Mags fairly hard. I spent years fine tuning and learning to load for a box stock Remington 700 and a very customized Remington 700 but smith used the factory barrel. He shaved the rear, recut the chamber to match dimensions with a tad more throat to allow seating longer bullets farther out and welded a plate on the bottom to stiffen the action and convert it to single shot. After sending the barrel to Blackstar then for a cryofreezer dip he installed three of his proprietary muzzle brake designs to find the one that shot the best then altered the port to further get all barrel harmonics in "tune". After trigger work, lapping lugs, doing the trigger, bedding, lapping rings and sending a new Leupold 36x target scope off to be blueprinted and a full bluprint on the action using all OEM componemts the rifle shot better at 400 yards than had shot at 100 yards out of the box with a little load development.

Then he convinced me to start headspacing off the case neck and accuracy improved even more. Gave him the other 7mm Rem Mag with a 6-18x Leupold which he left bottom open as a magazine fed turn bolt but did the full tear down, blueprinted, massaged every part, shaved rear rechambered then sent barrel to Blackstar and for a cryofreeze then reassembled and it went from a 1.5 MOA rifle at 400 yards to a 3/4 MOA rifle at 400 yards. Rifle one with the change in headspacing was suddenly a 1/2 to 5/8 MOA rifle at 400 yards. Then I discovered the 7mm Practical and except to keep round count down in my Practicals the 7mm Remy customs have served me well.

I now load my 264 Win Mag, 7mm Win Mags and 300 Win Mags headspacing off the shoulder which has improved accuracy and increased case life. As time has passed and we have developed better steels, better case manufacturing techniques have moved away from new rifles in belted cartridges and am using 338 Lapua, 300 RUM, 7mm Practical, 6.5 Creedmore and similar hot shooters without a belt. Am trying to save up to have a Cheytac built right now as a sporting rifle without the military stigma of a 50 BMG though almost bought a nice turn bolt 50 a couple weeks ago but another guy came in with the cash before I could move some funds around. I mainly wanted the Burris Eliminator laser ranging scope on it to move to a 6.5 Creedmore then was going to put a high power scope on the 50 then sell the unscoped, unfired 50 in back of vault that snaps on an AR 15 lower.

Something about big belted magnums have that testosterone laced "man's rifle" feel to them and the term "belted magnum" instantly conjures up thoughts of hard recoiling, hard hitting rifles that have a special appeal. The one belted magnum would like and do not have is the 257 Weatherby. Friend hunts with one and no deer escapes it's wrath or has to be tracked. Have tried more than once to negotiate on a 257 Weatherby but yet to meet someone on price for a rifle I wanted.

Have been trying to buy a 300 SAUM built by my former smith where man who comissioned it got sick and died before had time to even scope it. His widow got hands on price he paid for rifle new in box, McMillan stock, custom barrel, Jewell trigger, blueprinting, bedding, custom compensator and all his other labor and put an adding machine to the rifle, every part and the labor and will not accept an offer under what her husband invested. She had in one LGS two years, now in second almost a full year and since the smith never tried to build a brand like many do there is not much demand for his rifles except by folks that already have half a dozen and won't pay for the donor and full price everything.

My now retired smith built a special version of a blueprinted 270 Weatherby Mag where his instructions were to load ammo to where ogive of bullet made contact with lands of rifling and we're safe to fire with no freebore. Do that with a factory Weatherby and will be lucky if ride to the hospital instead of morgue. His full blown heavy barrel 270 Weatherby magnums are magical. Watched a friend and his dad shooting 1.75" groups at 500 yards and use for deer hunting in south georgia. They are loggers and often clear 1,000 to 2,500 acre tracts of flat land and will see deer at ridiculous ranges and crawl out of their machine with their custom 270 Weatherbys and waste big bucks that assumed were too far from the workers to be in harms way. Nothing quite like a big turn bolt to make that one chance shot. Belted or not, headspacing is done the same.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:07.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files