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Old June 03, 2019, 16:03   #1
Invictus77
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American Eagle 5.56 experience???

I went to a friend's farm yesterday who has a range set-up out to 1,000 yards. My own purpose was to sight in a new Vortex scope on a 20" HB AR at 300 yards for coyotes.

It was shooting a 2.5-3 MOA group which was very disappointing. I only took the one rifle and one brand of ammo with me. I will do this again and at this point I cannot rule out the rifle just yet, but my gut tells me it is probably the ammo.

It was American Eagle XM193 which I picked up cheap a couple years ago. It has been fine for steel plate banging on my home 100 yard range and it just happened to be what I grabbed yesterday.

Anyone else had any experience with this ammo, good or bad?
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Old June 03, 2019, 16:27   #2
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I think I have a bunch of it...I am hoping to get to the range next week, will let you know how it works out for me
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Old June 03, 2019, 17:42   #3
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Good bullets fired through good barrels usually produce good groups.

Shitty bullets fired through good barrels always produce shitty groups.

ALL bulk-pack 55 grain bullets are shitty bullets.

You do the math.

I've shot a lot of that stuff through good barrels. Usually groups sorta-OK, then throws a shot way out of the group. No shocker there.

Life is too short to shoot crappy ammo unless all you really care about is making loud noise and showing off your "cool guns" to people who either don't know better, or who just don't give a shit.
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Old June 03, 2019, 18:23   #4
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Do you reload? Nosler 77gr. CCs are the bomb.
XBR 8208 and Tac go nicely with those bullets.
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Old June 03, 2019, 18:42   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
Shitty bullets fired through good barrels always produce shitty groups.
I'm 99% confident that is the case here. I had sighted it in a couple weeks or so ago at 100 yards and it was keeping well under 1" groups when I did my part. I have at least 5 brands of 556 around here and I don't recall what I used that day at home, but yeah I am guessing it was not the AE stuff.
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Old June 03, 2019, 19:01   #6
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In my experience, the Fed XM193 is mediocre at best.

Currently, the best cheap M193-type ammo available is the Wolf Gold .223 Rem. 55gr FMJ (which is just 5.56x45mm M193 (with the M193 FMJBT bullet)) that Wolf imports from Taiwan. It's probably not advertised as 5.56x45mm M193 to circumnavigate some export/import regulations. It beats Rem/Win/Fed/IMI/etc. M193 type ammo, hands down...

And, if the Wolf Gold wasn't available, I'd probably shoot the PPU or S&B M193-type ammo. Notice no US produced stuff mentioned here, and that's no error of omission. High end specialty ammo is somewhat of a different situation...

That's 'in my opinion,' of course, and YMMV. Of course, my opinion is based on shooting a lot of the stuff available, but whatever...

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Old June 03, 2019, 19:03   #7
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I can only comment on the Federal AE 50 grain hollow point bullets. I killed a lot of coyotes with them, probably at least 50, and never had one run away wounded. They are tough little bullets, and shot amazing groups for me. AZ coyote hunting is a short range sport, if you do your job calling them in, 50-80 yard shots are the norm.

In fact, I took my Remington .223 VS to South Africa one year, and attended a benchrest match, shooting them. One of the top benchrest shooters shot a couple of groups with it, using his rest and equipment. He told me if it was an official match, the rifle would have beat the SA record for stock class, factory ammo.

Best of all, these were $4/20 back in the mid 90's. I still have about a 1000 left.

Another comment, never ever shoot coyotes using FMJ bullets, unless you enjoy tracking wounded ones. Had a buddy that insisted on shooting them, he wounded almost every one he shot.
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Old June 03, 2019, 19:05   #8
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Shooting over a half a mile away with that stuff, I'd be fine with the results. It's basically mil spec. Have the 855 and never thought of it as anything but shooting ammo
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Old June 03, 2019, 20:44   #9
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Another comment, never ever shoot coyotes using FMJ bullets, unless you enjoy tracking wounded ones. Had a buddy that insisted on shooting them, he wounded almost every one he shot.
Shit, if I'd known we were talking about shooting coyotes, I'd have suggested something other than M193 (unless the range is close).

I'd prefer the M193 on deer over most 'sporting' bullets. If it was legal, of course, but it isn't most everywhere, so scratch that comment ...

And, of course, of course, 5.56x45mm would not be my first choice for deer anyway...

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Old June 03, 2019, 20:57   #10
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What twist is the barrel?
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Old June 03, 2019, 21:04   #11
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What twist is the barrel?
It should make no difference from a 20in HBAR. While 1/12 would be optimal for 55gr, 1/7 and 1/9 will usually shoot it just fine too...

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Old June 03, 2019, 21:06   #12
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Shit, if I'd known we were talking about shooting coyotes, I'd have suggested something other than M193 (unless the range is close).
And, hagar, I missed the initial comment about 300 yards for coyotes...

That's on me and I apologize for this comment...

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Old June 04, 2019, 16:13   #13
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I just zeroed my newest rifle last week with these. I'm running a 16" SS,Hbar, barrel with mid- length gas. Chambered in .223 Wylde. At a hundred yards they were right at 1.5" for 5 shot groups. This was with an Eotech. Might have been able to squeeze a bit better out of actual crosshairs. I think if I were going to go for longer range, that I would probably want a slightly heavier bullet. For coyotes, I think I might also try a soft point or a hollow point. Otherwise, like WEG said, you will be tracking them.
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Old June 04, 2019, 16:35   #14
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For the record, I do use PSPs for actual coyotes, but this was virtually unplanned as I was going to his house for other reasons and just grabbed a couple of other pre-loaded mags and the rifle to use his range while I was there.

In hindsight, I also had a mag of 10 PSPs with me that stay in the rifle which I should have tried while I was there, but the grouping was so disappointing I gave up quickly until I can do it again with more variety of ammo and a second HB for comparison.
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Old June 04, 2019, 21:50   #15
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Im in the process of purging all magazine-length 5.56 that isnt 75-grain Hornady Match bullets. The Hornadys are the absolute best choice where value:accuracy is the standard, and where all firing is inside 300 yards. If you have to shoot magazine-length ammo at greater than 300 yards go with the higher-priced 77 Sierra MatchKing. You can push the 77 SMK a little harder without as much risk of shedding the jacket. The 80 SMK is hard to beat if you can load longer than magazine.

Life is too short to shoot crappy ammo.
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Old June 04, 2019, 22:24   #16
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I like XM193 for general use

I stock XM193 for shooting in my SP1s. I think its good for its original military application, man sized targets out to moderate range. I shoot black hills if Im shooting for small groups. I say lifes too short to limit oneself to top shelf ammo. XM193 works great on junked cars, boats and school busses at Creek and keeps the bill reasonable with no fear of out of spec cheapo foreign milsurp causing an issue. I like it for stockpile purposes as well.
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Old June 06, 2019, 18:05   #17
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UPDATE:

I had some time this afternoon and looked over the upper closely which I bought used and fully assembled. I am far, far, far from an AR expert, but in addition to the barrel nut being loose, I can safely say this is the most F'ed up assembly of an upper I have personally laid eyes on. The 3 MOA is not necessarily the ammo.

The new Vortex glass will move over to a Colt HB, the jury is still out on the ammo, and this particular AR will go back on the "project" shelf for another rainy day
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Old June 07, 2019, 00:08   #18
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Originally Posted by Invictus77 View Post
UPDATE:

I had some time this afternoon and looked over the upper closely which I bought used and fully assembled. I am far, far, far from an AR expert, but in addition to the barrel nut being loose, I can safely say this is the most F'ed up assembly of an upper I have personally laid eyes on. The 3 MOA is not necessarily the ammo.

The new Vortex glass will move over to a Colt HB, the jury is still out on the ammo, and this particular AR will go back on the "project" shelf for another rainy day
Well, a loose nut will cause problems on anything.
Glad you found that out, it might have gotten ugly.

Who assembled the upper?
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Old June 11, 2019, 18:06   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Invictus77 View Post
I went to a friend's farm yesterday who has a range set-up out to 1,000 yards. My own purpose was to sight in a new Vortex scope on a 20" HB AR at 300 yards for coyotes.

It was shooting a 2.5-3 MOA group which was very disappointing. I only took the one rifle and one brand of ammo with me. I will do this again and at this point I cannot rule out the rifle just yet, but my gut tells me it is probably the ammo.

It was American Eagle XM193 which I picked up cheap a couple years ago. It has been fine for steel plate banging on my home 100 yard range and it just happened to be what I grabbed yesterday.

Anyone else had any experience with this ammo, good or bad?
Have shot many 1000s thru my Colt M-16over the years.No problems at all.
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Old June 19, 2019, 13:47   #20
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I've not had any issue with American Eagle XM193. Works well in my 1/12 and 1/9 twist barrels. Acceptable accuracy with open sights. Haven't tried it with a scope. I've had no issue with average of 2 inch groups at 100 yards bench shooting. Personally I would be fine with 2.5-3 MOA at three-hundred yards.
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Old June 20, 2019, 10:39   #21
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Shilen 24" AR match barrel 1/12 at 100 yards

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Old June 22, 2019, 06:15   #22
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Cool

Have a half metric ton of the American Eagle XM193 for end of world zombies, making once fired brass, full auto in the Ruger GB AC556 folder. Occasionally get a good group if happen to shoot through a nice rifle but generally only shoot nice ammo through nice rifles. Mine was purchased after ban but before Sandy Hook and price was right is main reason own it. Would never use it to judge accuracy of a rifle. It is making pop, pop noise while hitting man size targets at reasonable range ammo.

Have a pair of W.O.A. 20" 1:8 HBAR's with Wylde chambers threaded 5/8"24. One has a Vortex 6-24x scope, other has a Weaver T-24 with fine cross hairs and MOA dot. Weaver happened to be unmounted in locker and was low on glass cash when rifles were finished. Shooting 69 grain SMK's (Factory loaded DTAK by David Tubb aka Superior Shooting Systems) both will put five rounds in 1/2" if shooter does his job. Friend who shoots much more than I can hold ten rounds in 1/2" with them.

Actually have the 6-24x Vortex scoped rifle in truck now for ground hogs and coyote. If have safe backstop, get a good range with rangefinder while Annenometer is linking to Strelock Pro expect first round cold bore kills to 400-450 yards. Will take up to 600 yard shots and not be suprised if they take a hit or bullet lands close enough can dope second shot quickly from seeing where first shot landed. Have stopped loading my long range varmint ammo and use either 69 grain DTAK in my 1:8 and 1:9 bores and 77 grain DTAK in my 1:7.5 and 1:7 bores. As little as used for killing long range varmints it saves a lot of bench time and cost is not an issue when only using on vermin. Next barrel plan to buy in 5.56 is a White Oak Armament profiled 1:6:5 to launch single loaded 90 grain projectiles or 77 grain SMK's and 80 grain Bergers from magazine.

If really want to gain an advantage then may want to swap in a 22 Nosler barrel to one of your builds. Only other change is a couple of 6.8 magazines. At 400 yards bullet drop is more than a foot less than 5.56 plus it has a lot less wind drift. I adopted it right out of the gate and keep a half dozen rifles chambered for it now. Three varmint/target rifles and three set up as tactical rifles giving me the ability to push the new M855A1 military projectiles at same effective velocity for about another 250 to 300 yards over 5.56 and punches 5.56 rated armor plates effectively using Barnes Copper Solids, M855A1 and more.

From Shooting Times:
Quote:
In short, if you want to play, you gotta pay. The 22 Nosler clearly offers some of the best ballistics you can get from an AR-15. Though it doesn’t hit as hard, it shoots flatter and handles the wind almost as well as the 6.5 Grendel cartridge AR aficionados are so outrageously starry-eyed about. That’s more than enough justification for a new cartridge. For that, you can thank Illinois wildcatter Roy Winnett for having the original vision, and Nosler for making it an easy and across-the-counter reality.
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Old June 25, 2019, 08:26   #23
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Anything made to milspec only has to meet the spec. Most 5.56 milspec ammo had a 2.5 moa requirement, and that's what it manages. Want better? Have to get better. Personally I've had great success with the Winchester Elite in several different calibers. The 130gr through my .270WSM will shoot touching holes. Recreating that load is on my reloading to-do list, but lately it's been all about pistol in volume.

If I really want my precision AR to shoot well it's those same 69gr SMKs that Huey mentions above over Varget that gets me about a .75moa average from my 1:8 Rainier (Black Hole made it) poly barrel. It will probably do better on a sled but that's what I manage with it. Now that I think about it I need to try it again though, that was with a Spikes Battle Trigger installed. I've since swapped it for a James Madison Tactical Saber trigger that is just a joy for the $$$; 3.5lbs, single stage, classic glass-rod break. And now that's on the to-do list as well.

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Old June 25, 2019, 22:29   #24
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It should make no difference from a 20in HBAR. While 1/12 would be optimal for 55gr, 1/7 and 1/9 will usually shoot it just fine too...

Forrest
My A2 with a 20" HBAR 1 in 7 will only shoot 2-3 MOA with M193 ammo. It doesn't matter what brand of M193 either. 62 gr milsurp comes in at 1-1 MOA. 69 gr HPBT match goes down to MOA all day long. All of my other AR's have 16" barrels and 1-7 or 1-8 barrels. They shoot the M193 and M855 about the same - 1 MOA. My MK12 clone has a 1-7 18" medium heavy profile barrel. I only shoot heavier bullets out of it. Right now it prefers the Hornady 175gr OTM and holds - MOA.
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Old June 25, 2019, 22:57   #25
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My A2 with a 20" HBAR 1 in 7 will only shoot 2-3 MOA with M193 ammo. It doesn't matter what brand of M193 either. 62 gr milsurp comes in at 1-1 MOA. 69 gr HPBT match goes down to MOA all day long. All of my other AR's have 16" barrels and 1-7 or 1-8 barrels. They shoot the M193 and M855 about the same - 1 MOA. My MK12 clone has a 1-7 18" medium heavy profile barrel. I only shoot heavier bullets out of it. Right now it prefers the Hornady 175gr OTM and holds - MOA.
Very interesting...

I have several 20in barreled rifles (AR) with 1/7 and 1/9 that shoot the M193 quite well. Of course, it's usually the Wolf Gold .223 Rem 55gr (which is M193) if it's factory (I avoid the AE 556 for the reasons mentioned above). Otherwise, it's with IMI or Hirtenberger or PPU or Wolf Gold M193 bullets in military cases with appropriate amounts of H335 or AA2460 or AA2230C (or WC846 or WC844 or BLC2) loaded to M193 specs. Lately, I've been also shooting some RA65 5.56mm ammo (which is loaded with IMR8208). And I've been playing with some Alliant Pro-Varmint powder as well...

There's probably a lesson to be learned in all this, but I guess that I'm not smart enough to figure out what it is...

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Old June 26, 2019, 19:04   #26
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I skip factory for coyotes, I use 55 gr Nosler ballistic tip. Coyotes go Poof!
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Old June 27, 2019, 08:19   #27
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If want to shoot light 55 grain bullets in 1:9 through 1:12 tube like Nosler Varmageddon. Seldom do I shoot a slower twist than 1:9 and 69 grain SMK's shoot well in most of my 1:9's as well. Have found that the Tubbs/Superior Shooting Systems 69 grain SMK's loaded in new Lake City brass to David Tubbs specifications is the best all around factory ammo for accuracy in wide variety of rifles I have found.
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Old June 28, 2019, 19:09   #28
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I can only comment on the Federal AE 50 grain hollow point bullets. I killed a lot of coyotes with them, probably at least 50, and never had one run away wounded. They are tough little bullets, and shot amazing groups for me. AZ coyote hunting is a short range sport, if you do your job calling them in, 50-80 yard shots are the norm.
Been shooting from my stock of horded Fed AE 50gr hollow point lately. Getting very nice groups - much better that typical ball ammo.
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