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Old October 28, 2012, 18:07   #51
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Yea Andy that's what I mean and now I am going to have trouble sleeping.
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Old October 28, 2012, 18:21   #52
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I know my Ruger P90 ain't the most popular gun on the planet,but you'd be hard pressed to do an accidental discharge with it,hammer down. No safety of any kind,just a long-assed deliberate trigger pull on double action.Single action,the trigger is pretty good,and its fairly accurate.
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Old October 28, 2012, 18:23   #53
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Like this guy:


As you mentioned, caused by a worn holster:
Another case for checking our gear, replacing before it is necessary, and not going cheap.

I am extremely frugal...... really frugal.....Scotch....

My holsters cost $ 150.00 and up, sheaths are near that, and all are custom, hand made, to fit my needs.

Hospitals and attorneys are more costly than good gear that fits.
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Old October 28, 2012, 21:12   #54
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Myself, I prefer a holster that is broke in fairly well and allows a nice and smooth draw. I can remember when we use to do all sorts of things to our revolver holsters to make them less stiff and allow for a decent draw.
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Old October 29, 2012, 07:09   #55
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I carry a 1911 on duty in a Serpa holster.

Search for Rob Leatham and note his advice on the draw.

The thumb's not on the safety or the finger on the trigger until the pistol is coming up on target.
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Old October 29, 2012, 15:02   #56
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Quote:
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Like this guy:


As you mentioned, caused by a worn holster:
Holey cow hide
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Old October 29, 2012, 15:07   #57
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I know my Ruger P90 ain't the most popular gun on the planet,but you'd be hard pressed to do an accidental discharge with it,hammer down. No safety of any kind,just a long-assed deliberate trigger pull on double action.Single action,the trigger is pretty good,and its fairly accurate.
Accidental discharge? True, since your P90 DAO is still equipped with a firing pin safety is is unlikely it will fire without depressing the trigger.

Negligent discharge? Pull the trigger, your P90 will go boom just like the rest of the guns we are talking about.

A long heavy trigger full of mush and creep does not a "safe" gun make. Ask NYPD.

It's the tool behind the tool that makes the difference.
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Old October 29, 2012, 15:27   #58
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What I'm saying is there ain't much you could do to it other than deliberately pull the trigger to make it go boom. I don't think theres a holster made than could bugger the trigger enough to cause it to discharge.I doubt dropping it would do much either.Still won't carry it hammer cocked.
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Old October 29, 2012, 16:29   #59
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What I'm saying is there ain't much you could do to it other than deliberately pull the trigger to make it go boom.
And what I'm saying is that is also true for the 1911 with the exception that a cocked and locked 1911 has two active safeties that yours does not which means a poor holster design that activates the trigger will not cause a 1911 to fire like it would on your P90.

The cocked hammer looks spooky but as AndyC tried to point out to you, there are millions of Americans that carry "cocked and locked" single action rifles, many of them select fire, every day and their one active safety seems to work fine low these past 70ish years.

Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.
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Old October 29, 2012, 23:33   #60
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Pay no attention to TV and Movies, where jackhole actors have been told by jackhole directors to cock a loaded 1911 for effect. It is formula for disaster to set up, and to accomplish.
This is called Condition Two, but is really Conditioned DooDoo.
The older Detonics Combat Master 1911s were supposedly meant to be carried in Condition 2. The rear of the slide was even sloped toward the hammer and the rear sight moved forward, in order to make it easier for the thumb to reach the hammer spur. Granted, this was the height of 1970s gunfighter mindset, and we know more about things these days.

Look at the angle of the slide herenot my pic)

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Old October 29, 2012, 23:50   #61
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The older Detonics Combat Master 1911s were supposedly meant to be carried in Condition 2. The rear of the slide was even sloped toward the hammer and the rear sight moved forward, in order to make it easier for the thumb to reach the hammer spur. Granted, this was the height of 1970s gunfighter mindset, and we know more about things these days.

Look at the angle of the slide herenot my pic)

I do not believe that to be the case.

Page 6, c, ii

http://stevespages.com/pdf/detonics_combatmaster.pdf
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Old October 30, 2012, 01:11   #62
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The cocked hammer looks spooky but as AndyC tried to point out to you, there are millions of Americans that carry "cocked and locked" single action rifles, many of them select fire, every day and their one active safety seems to work fine low these past 70ish years.

Out of sight, out of mind, I guess.
I'm glad someone noticed the point I was trying to make
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Old October 30, 2012, 09:24   #63
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I carry a 1911 on duty in a Serpa holster.

The thumb's not on the safety or the finger on the trigger until the pistol is coming up on target.

Exactly, this Dude screwed up big time by placing his finger in the trigger guard before he cleared the holster and had already popped off the safety. This AD has nothing to do with holster design, it's all about proper training with a 1911.
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Old October 30, 2012, 16:01   #64
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How were 1911's carried in the military?(U.S.)
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Old October 30, 2012, 16:04   #65
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How were 1911's carried in the military?(U.S.)
Condition three for sentries and assorted hoi polloi. Elite troops carry condition one.

It seems cocked and locked scares the administrative types but not the warriors.
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Old October 30, 2012, 16:42   #66
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Condition three for sentries and assorted hoi polloi. Elite troops carry condition one.

It seems cocked and locked scares the administrative types but not the warriors.
IIRC, Charles A. Skelton wrote of being a chaser in the Corps, and being ordered to carry a 1911 with 6 rounds in one magazine, and only one, and the magazine separate from the gun.

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Old October 30, 2012, 19:41   #67
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Exactly, this Dude screwed up big time by placing his finger in the trigger guard before he cleared the holster and had already popped off the safety. This AD has nothing to do with holster design, it's all about proper training with a 1911.
Sorta-kinda, yup.

While even he was the first to admit he was at fault, not the holster, it was a perfect storm of events.

He'd apparently been practising earlier with a different holster which has a retention-lock - needing the thumb to release it. You can see where this is going already, I bet....

Once he switched holsters to one which didn't have a retention-device, his now-ingrained thumb-movement deactivated the safety on his 1911 - in itself not a huge deal.... however - because he'd tried to run before he could walk, he'd gotten into the habit of getting his finger on the trigger way too early in the draw and got bitten for it.
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Old November 03, 2012, 07:03   #68
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How were 1911's carried in the military?(U.S.)
In combat, they were carried however the sailor, soldier, marine, or airman wanted to carry them
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Old November 06, 2012, 07:39   #69
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I never could understand people who carried hammer-cocked. I don't run around the woods with my levergun hammer cocked..
That's why they invented Glocks. For people too stupid to carry real handguns which are usually cocked and locked.

Sadly that includes most law enforcement.

I've carried a 1911 in Condition One for 35 years or so. Never had any issues.
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Old November 07, 2012, 06:12   #70
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So a Colt Single Action Army isn't a "real" handgun?
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Old November 07, 2012, 07:19   #71
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So a Colt Single Action Army isn't a "real" handgun?
I suppose it is. But it ain't "all that" anymore for carry. Times do change.
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Old November 07, 2012, 11:11   #72
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So a Colt Single Action Army isn't a "real" handgun?
I was talking pistols, not revolvers.

John Moses Browning designed the 1911 to be carried in Condition One. The half cock on 1911's was never intended to be used while carrying. Good way to have a AD. The half cock feature was designed as a fail-safe in case your thumb accidently slipped off the hammer while being cocked.
And carrying Condition Three (hammer down on a live cartridge) is an accident waiting to happen.

A properly installed thumb safety, and a properly adjusted grip safety, is all that's needed on a 1911.
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Old November 11, 2012, 01:36   #73
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Note to self:

Avoid "retention" holsters which have a release actuated by the trigger finger.

That design is a solution in search of a bitch-slap.
I would blame the shooter long before the blackhawk holster he was using. I use one quite often, if you keep your trigger finger straight, you avoid shooting yourself, start to curl that finger so your in the triggerguard quickly, thats when the problem occurs.. if you hit the button properly, your finger is above the triggerguard and along the slide with all the ones I have used(Glock, 1911, 92..) have not found one yet which my finger is in a bent ready to pull trigger state
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Old November 11, 2012, 06:57   #74
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So a Colt Single Action Army isn't a "real" handgun?
I see your point, but the single action colt was not designed to CARRY around cocked with a live round in the cylinder, apples and oranges.

I agree with those who said its just the sight of the hammer being cocked that freaks people out, if they knew how the pistol functions then it wouldnt be an issue IMO. All the people carrying a 1911 that I know all carry "cocked n locked" in case an issue comes up where you NEED your weapon its just a matter of clickin off the safety and your ready to defend, when seconds count your not going to want to/or might not have time have to rack the slide before you can engage the threat, just my .02
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Old November 11, 2012, 07:11   #75
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I would blame the shooter long before the blackhawk holster he was using. I use one quite often, if you keep your trigger finger straight, you avoid shooting yourself, start to curl that finger so your in the triggerguard quickly, thats when the problem occurs.. if you hit the button properly, your finger is above the triggerguard and along the slide with all the ones I have used(Glock, 1911, 92..) have not found one yet which my finger is in a bent ready to pull trigger state
I am glad that it's worked for you so far, but my take is that using a holster that requires you to press something in or around the trigger while pulling on the gun is just asking for it.
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Old November 14, 2012, 10:13   #76
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Literally tears from laughing!!!
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Old November 15, 2012, 02:35   #77
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And is DAMN lucky he didn't shoot his toe off too!!!!

You can see the bullet strike an inch from his foot!
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Old November 23, 2012, 15:11   #78
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Seems to me that this is a good example of training consistently- the same high-quality, well-maintained equipment every time. This is why I use only one holster for each handgun I own.

In terms of his injury, I can tell you that accidental discharges of handguns into the leg are extremely common. That guy should have known that he didn't need an ambulance. Injuries like that, lateral to the femur, with known entry and exit wounds, present very little injury. He would get a physical exam (neurovascular function, which should be normal), some dressing supplies, 20 Vicodin and a nice firm slap in the face from me.

He failed to obey rule #1- finger out of the trigger guard until you are ready to fire. He can blame the SERPA if he wants but the button on those is up towards the frame and he fired well after the gun had been drawn. His finger didn't roll off the button right onto the trigger; he put it there in preparation to fire, and without reason.
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Old November 24, 2012, 13:14   #79
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A Great video to play at Range Officer training, for IDPA, and Cowboy Action!!

Jeeze, you can dressem up, but cannot takem anywhere.......
I think that was Todd Hoffman? Gold Miner?
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Old November 24, 2012, 13:57   #80
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Literally tears from laughing!!!
Well it is much funnier set to music, isn't it?
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Old January 10, 2014, 02:14   #81
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been there done that, only with a ruger 44 mag. the bullet went in my upper thigh and the doc. removed it down by my ankle spent a year and a half recovering from that big mistake, lucky for me I was only shooting 44 specials that day, be very careful out there, its no joke taking a bullet to the body !!
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Old January 13, 2014, 20:04   #82
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ROFL
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Old January 15, 2014, 12:44   #83
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Like this guy:


As you mentioned, caused by a worn holster:

^^^ exactly. I was going to post up the same two pictures. I use those in my CWP class to illustrate the dangers of that situation.

And for the record, I carry my 1911 cocked and locked at all times. I had an negligent discharge a while back and it was my own stupid fault. Nobody was around or got hurt, but I almost started to carry with the hammer down after that. Just had to keep reminding myself that the gun did everything it was designed to do, and it was me who messed up.

It certainly woke me up and honestly, I think I needed it. I was just a little too comfortable around my firearms and as we said in the Marines a million times, complacency kills.

It won't happen again though. And props to this guy for owning up to his mistake. It costed him much more than mine did, but when he gets back up on that horse, he'll be better off.


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been there done that, only with a ruger 44 mag. the bullet went in my upper thigh and the doc. removed it down by my ankle spent a year and a half recovering from that big mistake, lucky for me I was only shooting 44 specials that day, be very careful out there, its no joke taking a bullet to the body !!
Yeouch! Glad you're alright Detroit. I can't imagine..
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Old January 15, 2014, 18:21   #84
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What about the "Isreali Carry", no round in chamber safety off. Rack slide as you draw and engage???
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Old January 15, 2014, 18:31   #85
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What about the "Isreali Carry", no round in chamber safety off. Rack slide as you draw and engage???
Admittedly that is how I carry mine. I can rack a round very quickly
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Old January 16, 2014, 00:42   #86
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I do not believe that to be the case.

Page 6, c, ii

http://stevespages.com/pdf/detonics_combatmaster.pdf
The slide on the M1911 in this pic is slightly retracted due to the zip-tie. The slide is not in battery, thus appears to be slightly sloped to the rear.
And I've also carried a M-1911A-1 in condition one, since 1980, without ever having an AD. Had a Glock a couple times, first one had a shitty trigger, second one did as well. Went back to the JMB pistol.
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Old January 17, 2014, 22:54   #87
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Admittedly that is how I carry mine. I can rack a round very quickly
Well there you go, then.

As long as you train for the specific carry technique. That is what really matters
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Old January 19, 2014, 09:09   #88
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The 1911 in the vid worked as it was designed. I read the article in the blue press about the double action only semi-auto and agree with it for general issue, but some folks are better trained and for them the 1911 is still a top voice.
Sure, issue the people who will actual depend on it a gun that has a trigger that is harder to master by design. The ridiculous da/sa triggers found onv the likes of the m9 were the worst thing to happen to pistol design. From the desks of administrators not fighters. Your mileage may vary, but I say they will go the way of the dodo and rightfully so.

This guy did not shoot himself because of his trigger, it was because of his trigger finger.

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Old January 19, 2014, 18:38   #89
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been there done that, only with a ruger 44 mag. the bullet went in my upper thigh and the doc. removed it down by my ankle spent a year and a half recovering from that big mistake, lucky for me I was only shooting 44 specials that day, be very careful out there, its no joke taking a bullet to the body !!
If I remember correctly that's what caused Ruger to go to transfer bar triggers on their sa's only the numbnuts in Ak. was using magnums.
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Old January 19, 2014, 20:17   #90
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... when seconds count your not going to want to/or might not have time have to rack the slide before you can engage the threat, just my .02

I'll be happy to demonstrate my draw/stroke the slide/present to the target for you. This comes in just under one second. Every single time.

If you are going to need a handgun to shoot someone, you don't wait til the last split second to put it in your hand. Be deliberate, be ahead of the curve.

I'm not a gunfighter. I'm just someone who usually goes about armed.

If you're down to split seconds to deploy your handgun, you've set yourself up to lose. IMO.
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Well, if you think about it, socialists are essentially thieves. The difference between them and a regular thief is that they don't have the guts to do their own stealing.
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Old January 23, 2014, 09:26   #91
detroit360
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I did fully recover from that wound, the doctor was amazed that I didn't mess up my knee, but some how the bullet went around it but stayed inside my leg, the funny part was I didn't know I shot myself at first, I felt this burning down by my lower shin and lifted up my pants and saw a big lump and said to my buddy I just grazed myself, then I looked around to see where the shot hit the ground, then I felt this horrific pain in my thigh and pulled doon my pants and saw a big hole with leather and blue jean sticking out of it and knew I was screwed,I thought I was going to have to take my buddy to the hospital as he almost passed out, I just said a silent prayer and walked to the car. The real pain didn't come till later that day, then it felt like some body hit my leg with a 10 lb. sledge hammer, and that pain continued for a good month even with powerful pain pills. The doctor wanted to keep me in the hospital for at least 10 days I said Im going home the next day and did so. It took about 3 or 4 years to remember how it happened.
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