The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Weapon Specific Forums > The HK Files

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 08, 2019, 19:26   #51
Texgunner
long-time Texas taxpayer
Silver Contributor
 
Texgunner's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 4653
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Brokenoak in central Texas-Milam county
Posts: 8,717
Well, I'll tell ya right now; I'm definitely asking Santa for one of these this Christmas!
__________________
"The rock of democracy will founder when people think of people unlike themselves as the "other"-Teddy Roosevelt

My daddy was a cowboy in his younger days, wild as the west Texas wind. He once told me, "Son, death is a horse you got to ride. So you better get your saddle ready."-Mick "Pappy" Connors

heavily armed, easily pissed.
Texgunner is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 10, 2019, 22:40   #52
Combloc
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 55596
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 925
You'll be glad you bought one sir!


In this post, we're going to look at few detail shots of an original Cetme L as built by the Spanish. I'm not going into great detail on the rifle because there really is very little difference between it and the MCM offering externally. The HMG rifle is very close too. First, let's start with a word about colors. As noted earlier, the paint and furniture hues varied significantly over the production run of the rifle. When you consider wear, probable multiple subcontractors, exposure to UV light, time, exposure to chemicals and exposure to things I'm not even considering, you're gonna' see a rainbow of greens and even some grey. Again, think pine forest in spring. Another factor is lighting when the picture was taken. Below are two pictures taken of the exact same rifles (an original and a MCM) in the exact same position using the exact same camera. Only the lighting has changed:


If you didn't know better, you would swear we were looking at four different rifles in four different shade of green. Yes, I sound like I'm beating a dead horse here but I know someone is going to ask why HMG and/or MCM didn't finish their rifles in the same color as the originals. The answer is that they did. They just didn't finish it in the same hue you are looking at. Ok, done with that. Moving on.


First up are a few overall comparison shots of the three manufacturers. Click on any of the next 8 pictures and they should get larger. I have no idea why they are fighting with me. Computers and I don't really get along.


Right side:

Original is at the top with MCM below and HMG on the bottom.


Left side in same order:



Detail receiver right side, Spanish:



MCM:



HMG:





Detail receiver left side, Spanish:



MCM:

The bit of blue tape is leftover from test firing. MCM tapes off various places during testing so that your rifle's finish doesn't get dinged up in the process.


HMG:

There is a serial number there. It just didn't show up for some reason.


The rest of the pictures in this post will only show an original unless specifically stated otherwise.

A little bit better shot of the Santa Barbara logo:

Notice that the pistol grip color doesn't match the stock color.

Compare the above to the same shot of an MCM. It isn't 100% exact but as close as can be reasonably expected:



Welds on right side of cocking tube:



Top of cocking tube:



Left side of cocking tube:



Right side of rear sight:



Left side of rear sight:



Magazine well markings, reinforcement ribs:




Selector and serial number:



Stock pin holes:



Ejection port flare:

I originally thought this detail terminated farther toward the front of the port. I was wrong.


Weld at rear of trunnion where it meets the carrier rail:

One of my original complaints about the welds on the MCM rifle involved them not copying this detail more closely. I REALLY like how well the Spanish addressed this weld. I just looks so intricately done. But Frank explained to me that MCM decided to close this area up a little more completely because of propellant blowback. I do have to say, while the MCM solution isn't quite as elegant looking as the original, it DOES work as intended.



Cross section at rear of receiver:



From another angle:



Back of rear sight and a view along the receiver:

Note the paint run at the top rear corner of the sight and, more interesting, the fact that there is no divot for a scope mount. Some rear sights have it and some don't. I have no idea why but I'd bet that it's absent on later production.


Trigger box:

It is shown above with the hammer fully down and being held by the safety sear. When the bolt group locks forward and your finger is off the trigger, it will trip the safety sear and the hammer will rise slightly to the position shown below where it is being held by the trigger sear:

Whoop-de-do! Why does this even matter?? Here's why. Practically speaking, you don't need to remover the trigger box for cleaning every time you clean the rifle; it just doesn't get that dirty. Removing the trigger box is, to be blunt, a fiddly pain in the buttocks so it would be nice if you could leave the box in place, just pull the funky dirty bolt group out, clean it, clean your barrel and then slap it all back together. Well, on an original rifle you can do that because, when you pull the bolt to the rear, the safety sear holds the hammer low enough that it does not interfere with your sliding the bolt group back into the receiver and driving it home. Unfortunately, the safety sear is not present on the either the MCM or HMG rifles because it's a full-automatic part. This means that the hammer is only ever held by the trigger sear in the higher position thus preventing the bolt from being driven home without having first removed the trigger box. That kinda' blows but the alternative is having no rifle at all thanks to silly ATF rules. I hope that all made sense!


Bolt group showing Spanish applied finish:

When I first disassembled my MCM rifle, I assumed it just came out of an unissued rifle because the phosphate finish looked exactly like the finish seen here. Nope. Every single original part has been stripped and refinished by MCM. It just looks identical to the original finish because they REALLY did their homework. Schweet!!


Weld at front of magazine well:

This is another detail that I originally found a bit disappointing on the MCM rifle but have since discovered is done just like an original. On the HMG AMG, this weld is ground flat and nicely dressed. It looks better (and that's nice) but it's not original. MCM left it just as an original would be (and that's nice too). This is one of those little things that makes me like both the HMG and MCM offerings. Both have plenty of things to like.


In my limited experience, Spanish firearms are usually almost completely devoid of markings save for the main ones. They aren't like German or Soviet firearms where you find little inspection marks all over the place. True to form, this marking on the barrel is the only one I found:

Maybe if I spent hours pouring over every single nook and cranny, I would have found a couple more but I simply didn't have that kind of time. I asked Dave if I could just take it home with me and I'd return it in a week and he just grinned. Yes, I know that would be illegal. Don't get yourself in a snit.


Alright, that's it for tonight. We're in the home stretch. Just a couple more small things to cover (including a look at what was done to repair my rifle including my first range trip after I got it back) and we're done. As always, thank you for your time and I will leave you with a word of advise. Avoid dropping your rifle from a 100 foot cliff. It may break when it hits the bottom. OK bye!!
__________________
I ain't too bright!
Forums are for furthering knowledge, not bragging about what you've got.

Last edited by Combloc; April 10, 2019 at 23:08.
Combloc is online now   Reply With Quote
Old April 11, 2019, 00:25   #53
7.92 Dreamin
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 82122
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Richmond, CA
Posts: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Combloc View Post
Whoop-de-do! Why does this even matter?? Here's why. Practically speaking, you don't need to remover the trigger box for cleaning every time you clean the rifle; it just doesn't get that dirty. Removing the trigger box is, to be blunt, a fiddly pain in the buttocks so it would be nice if you could leave the box in place, just pull the funky dirty bolt group out, clean it, clean your barrel and then slap it all back together. Well, on an original rifle you can do that because, when you pull the bolt to the rear, the safety sear holds the hammer low enough that it does not interfere with your sliding the bolt group back into the receiver and driving it home. Unfortunately, the safety sear is not present on the either the MCM or HMG rifles because it's a full-automatic part. This means that the hammer is only ever held by the trigger sear in the higher position thus preventing the bolt from being driven home without having first removed the trigger box. That kinda' blows but the alternative is having no rifle at all thanks to silly ATF rules. I hope that all made sense!
To save you some trouble-- if you stick your index finger through your ejection port you can press the hammer down. Easiest done with the gun vertical, barrel resting on the ground, and the bolt carrier group sitting in back of receiver resting on hammer. Slip index finger in as deep as you can, back of hand against the receiver, and press the hammer down with the inside of your pointer finger and the BCG just falls in.

Removal of the trigger pack is by far one of this rifles weakest points.

It may just be an issue with the HMG flats, but it's possible to get the safety in a position where its 'locked' flat with the receiver, but the trigger pack is out of position, essentially locking the entire thing up. Lord knows how I got it like that, and i'm still not sure how i got it undone. But it's possible to do.
7.92 Dreamin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old April 18, 2019, 22:51   #54
Combloc
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 55596
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Maryland
Posts: 925
Sorry I haven't been at this for a bit but it's spring and things don't get done around the property unless you take the time to do them!

Before moving on to the repair on my rifle, I just have a couple loose ends to tie up. First, are a couple pictures of a few final assembly stations. This is where assembly of your rifle is finished up and Quality checked prior to test firing:





I noticed an unbent flat with parts assembled to it showing an "inside" view of the Cetme. I thought it was kinda' neat so I snapped a shot:



It wasn't all about Cetme's. The guys knew I love Swisstory so they told me they'd have a few things there I might be interested in. One of them was a select fire Chilean contract 510, shown here with my AMT:


Chilean marking on receiver:




SIG built it with a different pistol grip than they offered on the US imports:


AMT grip for comparison shown on the left:


There are other differences between the two and Dave had lots of other nice Swiss things including a Tb-41 anti-tank rifle but......that's a topic for a different time. Back to the task at hand.

For some reason, the rest of the pictures in this post show up stupid large unless I make them too small. Just click on any of them and it should get larger. I really don't get along with technology very well, sorry about that.
As I finished up my day with the fine folks at MarColMar, I asked one thing of Mr. Bane. After briefly explaining my fascination with origami firearms I asked it I could take a receiver flat with me. I told Dave that I would not sell it and I would not build a rifle on it. I simply wanted one for a souvenir of a day well spent and I also wanted one because I consider such things as Industrial Art. Dave graciously obliged and he gave me a neato MarColMar cap too! I think it looks good hanging in my home as Art, a vessel for good memories and as a reminder of new friends! I just have to decide which way it looks best :



My Honey's brother was over today and asked, "What's that bracket for?" He had no idea what it was and I guess he thought it was for hanging a TV or some such device. Everyone has their own thoughts about what constitutes sculpture I guess. LOL.



Alright, time to wrap this up.
I left my rifle at MCM on a Thursday and headed home. They determined that the front sight tower was askew and this was causing the problem. They tried to repair it while I was there and, while it was better, it was still shooting a few inches left at 100 yards with the rear sight moved fully to the right. The following Monday, I received an email telling me that it as now shooting straight and a picture was attached showing me the results on a target at 100 yards. I wrote back, asking what was done and received a highly detailed and technical description which, because I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, I did not 100% understand. Suffice it to say, they removed the sight, dressed the barrel and repined it using a solid steel pin. I was also told that they are changing production methods slightly so that this does not happen in the future. By the end of the week, I had my rifle back in hand. It was returned to me extremely well packed, the test target was in the box, and the entire rifle was cleaned and oiled. I couldn't have asked or reasonably expected more and I consider what was done to be absolutely Stellar service.

Here are right and left side views showing the new, solid pin:



The scuff marks on the sight cannot be helped. Because the heat shield fits tightly on the sight, finish wear is unavoidable if it is removed and reinstalled even a few times. Besides, the marks cannot be seen when the handguard is mounted.


Off to the range I went to find out if it worked. I took the HMG AMG along too to compare. I had to move the rear sight four clicks to the left and it's now zeroed. Schweet! I continue to fight with the front sight on the MCM because, as stated earlier, it's too small for my aging eyes although I'm sure it'll be just fine for the younger folks or those with better eyes than me. Because the HMG has a thicker sight, I tend to shoot it a little better. Apparently, different thickness front sights were supplied for original rifles. However, MCM has replaced the original sight with a new manufactured one and rethreaded the original sight base on their rifles so that a finer adjustment can be obtained and the sight can be adjusted more easily. Unfortunately for me, this change in threads means that I cannot simply switch out the skinny sight for a larger original one. I really wish they would offer a thicker sight.


So, below are my targets at 100 yards using 40 rounds of American Eagle 55 grain FMJ. First up is the MCM. Please remember what I always say......I'm a poor shot. You will most likely get better results than I show because you are most likely a better shot than me so don't judge the rifle by my results!! The most important take away here is that it's now centered after MCM effected repairs:



And the HMG:



Here is the rear sight on the MCM after final adjustments:





It's just a bit to the left but still perfectly within tolerance. I'm quite happy with the results.


Something I would recommend to anyone with an HMG rifle is that, at a minimum, they replace at the original worn out recoil and buffer springs. Ideally, I would recommend that you replace all of the springs for the best reliability but definitely DO replace the recoil and buffer springs. If you do not, you run the risk of your rifle beating the stock and/or the receiver to death. Remember that picture I posted showing a huge bin of stocks headed off to the scrap man? That means original stocks aren't going to be around forever. So, if you want to keep that original stock as long as possible, switch out the springs with new ones available from MCM. Below are a couple pictures that show why I think you should do this.
The first one shows the receiver on my MCM rifle after 60 rounds:

I have placed black electrical tape where the casings bounce off the receiver upon ejection. Notice the absence of marks on the tape.


Here we see the HMG receiver after 60 rounds:

It bounces the casings off the receiver behind the ejection port. Notice how the tape is chewed up and pierced. Clearly, the HMG rifle is throwing them out much more violently. While the rifle is 100% reliable with good quality magazines with strong springs, the ejection pattern is wildly erratic compared to the MCM rifle and they are thrown much farther too. To me, it's obvious that the new MCM springs are much stronger than the originals in the HMG AMG. I don't know how much MCM is charging for the springs but I'm sure it's going to be a whole lot less than the price of a new receiver or an original stock. Of course, you can but a new made MCM stock too...….just buy some new springs, OK?

Alrighty, on to conclusions.
At this point, I have at least 400 rounds through the MCM. I say "at least" because, while I normally keep track of what I shoot and how many I shoot, I did not keep track of how many rounds we put through it the day I was at MCM and I also have no idea how many were put through it after a I left. To date, I'm aware of two stoppages, both failures to feed and both on the day I got it back.
Thus far, I cannot say enough good things about either the HMG and MCM AMG. While I wouldn't particularly want to take either to war, I do love taking them to the range. Of all the 5.56 rifles I own (and that's quite a few) with the exception of the M249, felt recoil is least with the AMG. Yes, we're only talking about a little .22 rifle here but still, the AMG is at the top. Also, what minimal recoil there is, is essentially straight back because of the well thought out straight line configuration of the design. Neither AMG is a marksman's rifle but then it wasn't designed to be. You are always going to get the idiot asking "what will this rifle do that my craptastic AR won't do already?" Well, for one, it won't be an AR. But asking that silly question in the first place misses the point entirely. I can't speak for MCM and I can't speak for HMG but I can speak for myself and it seems to me that the point of a new made CETME L is, quite simply, to provide you with a Quality reproduction of a late cold war Spanish designed roller lock so that you can have fun at the range and own a piece of firearms History. The point is to build a rifle that is actually better than the original, one that brings a smile to your face and one that might spark a conversation at the range....which could lead to a new friend and new experiences. If I'm right and that is the point, both rifles have succeeded in my book.
I really enjoy both of them and I look forward to many enjoyable and memorable range trips in the future. My advise is to buy at least one AMG. If you want one that is as close to all original as you can get and you don't mind or even like the worn in beat up look, buy the HMG but make sure you replace the springs. If you want a rifle that looks just like an original when it was brand new AND has the added bonus of being chocked full of research, engineering and materials far superior to that found in an original AND is backed up by a company that has customer service second to none, buy the MCM. Either way, buy a Cetme and let the good times roll...er lock! See you at the range; I'll be the guy with the cool, 80's looking, green Army Man Gun!
__________________
I ain't too bright!
Forums are for furthering knowledge, not bragging about what you've got.

Last edited by Combloc; April 19, 2019 at 19:52.
Combloc is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files