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Old June 11, 2019, 17:21   #1
Invictus77
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Barrel nut torque???

I swapped a FF HG and the new barrel nut torqued up right at 30#.

80# would not get anywhere close to the next hole.

My preference would be to be somewhere more mid-range to tight. It is within "spec" at 30#, but.....

Am I overthinking this?
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Old June 11, 2019, 17:31   #2
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I'm thinking your talking about the slot for the gas tube?
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Old June 11, 2019, 17:31   #3
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Originally Posted by Invictus77 View Post
I swapped a FF HG and the new barrel nut torqued up right at 30#.

80# would not get anywhere close to the next hole.

My preference would be to be somewhere more mid-range to tight. It is within "spec" at 30#, but.....

Am I overthinking this?
Yes...

The military spec manual says to tighten three times before the final torquing.

That takes up all the 'slack' in the system.

If you've done that, leave it alone (if you already know that 80 ft/lbs would not quite do it, I'm assuming that you've already taken up any 'slack.')

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Old June 11, 2019, 17:31   #4
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Yes sir.
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Old June 11, 2019, 17:40   #5
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They do make shims for the anal amongst us.
https://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...prod96013.aspx
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Old June 11, 2019, 18:00   #6
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One firm ugga-dugga is usually good.
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Old June 11, 2019, 18:32   #7
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Originally Posted by W.E.G. View Post
One firm ugga-dugga is usually good.
My shitty AR wrench is shitty. I find myself with a Dremmel on the gas tube passage after I bend the pins again on the wrench
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Old June 11, 2019, 19:30   #8
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My shitty AR wrench is shitty. I find myself with a Dremmel on the gas tube passage after I bend the pins again on the wrench
Tight ass
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Old June 11, 2019, 20:54   #9
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Tight ass
Guilty
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Old June 11, 2019, 21:48   #10
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I've always torqued the barrel nut the 45 foot pounds. Never an issue with the nut coming loose. I've have used a shim twice on the 14 AR builds completed (all standard handguard). The shims worked great for me, and are cheap.
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Old June 11, 2019, 22:00   #11
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One firm ugga-dugga is usually good.
Yup!

Tighten and loosen twice, and then an "ugga-dugga" on the third. I would only advise the practice with experienced builders who know their tools/strength (obviously you fall in this category)….. par the course while monotonously rebarreling dozens of M4 rifles per day, into the M4A1. It interesting observing just how loose, or tight, the factory M4 rifle barrels were before disassembly.
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Old June 12, 2019, 00:11   #12
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After I took apart an LMT rifle, and that barrel nut was NOT inside the 30# - 80# range, I freaking reef on that barrel nut wrench.

I'll make it to the next hole for the gas tube - and I'll feel good doing it. None of mine are coming apart unexpectedly.
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Old June 12, 2019, 20:03   #13
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After I took apart an LMT rifle, and that barrel nut was NOT inside the 30# - 80# range, I freaking reef on that barrel nut wrench.

I'll make it to the next hole for the gas tube - and I'll feel good doing it. None of mine are coming apart unexpectedly.
I used to feel the same way.....till I stripped AND busted the threads on an upper, thank goodness it was mine.

After that embarrassment I bought an assortment of shims from Amazon (stupid cheap) and a tool to lap/true the upper receiver face.

I true the upper first, then find an appropriate shim to bring the gas tube hole into alignment at or near the 80# mark.

That 6061 isn't as Robust as a FAL....
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Old June 12, 2019, 20:07   #14
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I admit it I am somewhat anal. I ordered a shim kit from Amazon today
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Old June 12, 2019, 20:55   #15
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Old June 12, 2019, 21:08   #16
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Old June 12, 2019, 22:11   #17
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I used to feel the same way.....till I stripped AND busted the threads on an upper, thank goodness it was mine.

After that embarrassment I bought an assortment of shims from Amazon (stupid cheap) and a tool to lap/true the upper receiver face.

I true the upper first, then find an appropriate shim to bring the gas tube hole into alignment at or near the 80# mark.

That 6061 isn't as Robust as a FAL....
I was wondering when somebody would mention this. There is a reason for the 80 LB. FT. limit. I have tapped on the wrench to get that last infinitesimal bit of turn without a problem, but you have to wonder...
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Old June 13, 2019, 20:58   #18
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Screw you guys who are making me contemplate taking my shit apart.

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Old June 13, 2019, 22:13   #19
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Screw you guys who are making me contemplate taking my shit apart.

Hey, if it went together without stripping threads or breaking off... You're good to go.
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Old June 14, 2019, 07:25   #20
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One firm ugga-dugga is usually good.
Yup, right there in the list of WECSOG terms.
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Old June 14, 2019, 10:49   #21
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Should correspond to a small, dry, fart being expelled at the moment of correct tension.
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Old June 14, 2019, 20:04   #22
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Isn't the the wrong direction to break it loose?
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Old June 14, 2019, 22:38   #23
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Probably an Imbel short combo device...

Forrest
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Old June 14, 2019, 22:52   #24
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Probably an Imbel short combo device...

Forrest
Those are tough. Gotta melt the grease first!

I guess I should not mention that he is using a ratchet, not a breaker bar.

Delete this meme someone, and find a better one!
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Old June 14, 2019, 22:59   #25
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Okay, as for constructive advice. I finally added some shims to my AR build tools. They do come in handy. And as far as my experience, I recall that on almost every build. after I applied the minimum torque to a barrel nut, it was always just past aligning with the gas tube, and I had to keep tightening to the next notch.
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Old June 15, 2019, 20:12   #26
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I torque, let sit all day then remove. Before leave work retorque and let sit overnight. Next day remove nut and retorque. I have a very narrow window of ft/lbs of torque I use so if hole or notch does not line up with measurement in my range then reach for the shim kit. Learned that watching the Elliott crew build NASCAR motors. Want your fasteners to normalize under torque so are fully stretched on final twist and fastener doesn't loosen just sitting there and stretching after only a single run up with the torque wrench.

Buy three Bison Armory $5 shim kits with four shis per kit and will be building heavy for a couple years before need more. There is always the open the notch a tad with a dremel. I don't want to be at low or high end of "in tolerance". I use a much finer resolution in the middle shared with me by a tech at a company that charges a grand to screw together an upper for Service Rifle guys.
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Old June 15, 2019, 21:58   #27
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Isn't the the wrong direction to break it loose?
Lot of truck lugs have bassackwards thread pattern
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Old Yesterday, 09:10   #28
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Shims? Torque it the way you want and then grind away anything in the way of the gas tube. Barrel nuts are cheap and one missing tooth ain't gonna make any difference anyway!
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Old Yesterday, 11:58   #29
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Shims? Torque it the way you want and then grind away anything in the way of the gas tube. Barrel nuts are cheap and one missing tooth ain't gonna make any difference anyway!
The gas tube adds a little extra security in preventing a barrel nut coming loose.

I only mention that, for it isn't uncommon to find a used rifle with a barrel nut that can be unscrewed by hand after the gas tube has been removed... even on factory rifles (included GI contract).

Also, removing a tooth isn't an option when installed floated handguard assemblies.



...
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Old Yesterday, 12:04   #30
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Something to consider, if anyone plans on building more AR rifles in the future, it doesn't hurt to stash away extra upper receivers.

Uncle Sam doesn't shim barrels. If you cannot properly time the barrel, you try a different receiver (or vice versa).

I apply the same mindset to personal builds. Whenever I come across a decent deal on an upper receiver (or complete upper for that matter), I'll snag it up (I can always sell parts and get my $$$ back if necessary). If I end up in a situation like the OP, and feel that an unreasonable amount of torque is needed to time the barrel nut, I will set that receiver aside and use another.
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Old Yesterday, 12:56   #31
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Isn't the the wrong direction to break it loose?
Also looks like a great way to bash your privates and face in at the same time.
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Old Yesterday, 13:40   #32
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Something to consider, if anyone plans on building more AR rifles in the future, it doesn't hurt to stash away extra upper receivers.

Uncle Sam doesn't shim barrels. If you cannot properly time the barrel, you try a different receiver (or vice versa).

I apply the same mindset to personal builds. Whenever I come across a decent deal on an upper receiver (or complete upper for that matter), I'll snag it up (I can always sell parts and get my $$$ back if necessary). If I end up in a situation like the OP, and feel that an unreasonable amount of torque is needed to time the barrel nut, I will set that receiver aside and use another.
Yup...

In addition, there are other good reasons for having some extra uppers taking up space on shelves (or wherever).

For example, about six months back I received (yet another) complete upper from PSA. By itself, that's not particularly notable since, as mentioned above, I also pick them up when the deals are good (and, recently, the deals have been very good, if you catch my drift).

I tend to do the same thing with stripped lowers (and Andersons have been in the $35-40 range for quite a while now (and currently the PSA ones are $29.99 (must not buy... Must not buy... )).

Anywho, back to my point...

When I slapped the PSA complete upper on one of the Anderson lowers I put together for it, mags would not latch in the lower. If I beat an old aluminum one in hard enough, it would finally catch. Then again, the mags would latch just fine in the lower with the upper not on...

The upper, which looked very nice, was finished on an Anchor Harvey forging. However, it was slightly off, dimensionally. Because of this, the mag would not insert quite far enough into the upper (when the upper and lower were assembled) to catch well and, on top of this, even if you beat the mag in enough to catch, the bolt would not pick up rounds out of the magazine.

Bummer, dude...

Of course, what I did was just pull the upper apart and swap in another upper (of the several laying around, just in case). Voila, problem solved...

I called PSA to let them know of the problem and asked if they'd just swap me a new stripped upper for the original one, and they said that they'd need to get the entire upper back. Of course, that meant that I'd have to pull it apart again (now functioning just fine) and put it together on the out-of-spec upper it came with...

If I had pushed it up the pecking-order line at PSA, they would probably have sent me a stripped upper. But I like the guys there and felt no need to antagonize anyone, even at the 'lowest level.' They would have paid to ship the complete upper back to them and send me a new one if I had asked them to do that, with no problems at all...

And I do understand why they wanted the complete upper back too...

So it cost me $30 (for the replacement stripped upper that I had purchased a number of years ago and had laying around, waiting for something, finally having 'something' arrive) to fix the problem. Big deal... (and, for anyone thinking it should have been handled differently, you're free to do that...).

Without the 'extra' upper, it would have taken longer to fix...

Wait, I think that was my point in agreement with lockjaw here...

Shit, I'm beginning to feel like huey...

I'll end now...

Forrest
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Old Yesterday, 17:17   #33
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Extra uppers turn into rifels somehow, so I shims them now.

I think I'm about done assembling ARs anyway.
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Old Yesterday, 20:05   #34
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Big enough wrench and even a chicken can tear down a stuck Harley flathead motor.



I am pushing close to two dozen barrel nut wrenches and adapters adding in AR 10 to the AR 15 devices. Having the right upper hlding jig, barrel nut adapter and correct wrench for getting a good hold on the nut is something that makes me feel more confident that I won't warp a tooth or damage anything while torquing, loosening then retorquing till feel have all the stretch out of the parts and my torque value dialed in on the dime.

Squaring the upper first is as important as torquing to proper value. If receiver is out of square then barrel is not in line with upper receiver plus torque is applied in uneven manner causing stuff to bind or wear oddly even if works.

These will twist up a cheap and fast rifle but not using to attach a $400 barrel to a billet upper using a milspec or custom barrel nut.



Recently added the Mentium USA Shark Series device to my kit.



Currentry my favorite milspec barrel nut wrench adapter is from Accuracy Speaks.



At this point probably have enough invested in AR 15 tools could buy a pair of premium custom built Service Rifles or a three Daniel Defence or modern Colt rifles in just the AR 15 tools I either never or seldom use anymore but had to try them to decide which I prefer and really are times where find using an odd combination of parts only one of my many barrel nuts will actually get a good hold that suits me on the nut. Have recently doubled my 10/22 assembly tools and increased my parts selection by at least four times. Plan to start building M14's over the winter and already shopping tools as find them on sale so don't have to pay full price for all in a short period of time because need them right then. It's a sickness.
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Old Yesterday, 20:47   #35
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Big enough wrench and even a chicken can tear down a stuck Harley flathead motor.

What the hell happened to the generator mount on that case? I've seen a lot of messed up Harley cases over the years, but I've never seen a case broken like that.
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Old Today, 09:07   #36
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If you look to the benchrest guys they always tighten to the lower end of the torque requirements. It induces less stress, and therefore deflection, into the system. I've never gone over about 40ft/lbs on any of mine and the least fired one has probably well over 1k rounds through it. So don't overthink it and over tighten it. It can't come apart anyway with the gas tube there, so no need to go any further.
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Old Today, 14:06   #37
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After I took apart an LMT rifle, and that barrel nut was NOT inside the 30# - 80# range, I freaking reef on that barrel nut wrench.

I'll make it to the next hole for the gas tube - and I'll feel good doing it. None of mine are coming apart unexpectedly.
It wont come loose if you didn't over tighten because the gas tube acts as a locking piece for the barrel nut. I've read mabufacturers instructions read that you should season the threads by torquing to spec and loosening 2 or 3 times before final torquing on new components.
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Old Today, 14:36   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodpusherpro View Post
It wont come loose if you didn't over tighten because the gas tube acts as a locking piece for the barrel nut. I've read mabufacturers instructions read that you should season the threads by torquing to spec and loosening 2 or 3 times before final torquing on new components.
Yup, as we've discussed...

And, you should also use a good lube on the barrel nut, one that doesn't include copper or straight graphite.

I use a nickel based anti-seize, usually Loctite or Permatex (depending on what I have at the moment).

I also don't like shims (a personal sort of thing, not that I don't think that they can't work) and I have no interest in dremeling (or whatever) the notches on the barrel nut to get the gas tube through.

Just sayin'...

Forrest


Forrest
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