The FAL Files  

Go Back   The FAL Files > Discussion Forums > General Non-Firearms Discussion

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 13, 2018, 22:06   #1
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,357
Leveling a CNC machining center.

Does anyone here know much about leveling a 12,000 pound CNC machining center?
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 13, 2018, 22:14   #2
Bama Steve
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 1982
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Where I am
Posts: 5,469
Oh, Boy!!

A subject of merit for a change.

Search for 'TRAMMING MACHINERY'

Good luck and keep us posted.

(Never knew you MADE stuff, I would have perceived you differently had I known this).

__________________
Being dyslexic has a bright side - it's easy to put things back together
Bama Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13, 2018, 22:15   #3
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,357
I make a lot of stuff, and am going to make more!
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 13, 2018, 22:17   #4
Bama Steve
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 1982
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Where I am
Posts: 5,469
Share it, buddy!

__________________
Being dyslexic has a bright side - it's easy to put things back together
Bama Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 13, 2018, 22:38   #5
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,357
When I'm not pissing people off on the Fal Files I do racing cylinder head stuff. Like this:



Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 13, 2018, 23:03   #6
Bama Steve
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 1982
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Where I am
Posts: 5,469
Ooooh!

Where were you before I sold my '59 Chevy truck in need of a head job?


__________________
Being dyslexic has a bright side - it's easy to put things back together
Bama Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2018, 07:01   #7
yovinny
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,773
Ive done some millwright work,,,still have most of my levels even.
What are you wanting to know ?
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2018, 07:32   #8
medicmike
Registered
Contributor
 
medicmike's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 3183
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Florence, OR
Posts: 5,942
Never leveled a CNC mill but have installed printing presses that were 80' long with the print sections weighing 18k. Had to be level and tram to 5 thou across the width of the press.

This was one of mine


__________________
"Stand your ground. Don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here." Captain John Parker at Lexington Green

“The great Gaels of Ireland are the men that God made mad,
For all their wars are merry, and all their songs are sad.”
― G.K. Chesterton, The Ballad of the White Horse
medicmike is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2018, 07:43   #9
yovinny
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,773
Its all basically the same, needs to be all on the same plane. Level is just a 'known' thing or baseline to work from.
Tram is totaly different than level..Tram has to do with different parts relationship to each other.
A mill or other machine gets leveled, a mill head gets tramed (squared) to its table surface.
A lathe head gets tramed (axial aligned) to its bedway.

Last edited by yovinny; October 14, 2018 at 08:08.
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2018, 09:42   #10
Uriah Lee
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 81151
Join Date: May 2018
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 120
Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
Its all basically the same, needs to be all on the same plane. Level is just a 'known' thing or baseline to work from.
Tram is totaly different than level..Tram has to do with different parts relationship to each other.
A mill or other machine gets leveled, a mill head gets tramed (squared) to its table surface.
A lathe head gets tramed (axial aligned) to its bedway.
Years ago I was involved in the installation of a very large planer-mill. It was amazing to study the old millwrights building the machine. It was as much an art form based on experience as a technical exercise. Level the bed ways. Then square the columns to the bed. Then the rail to the table which traveled over the bed ways. Followed with two heads to the columns and two more heads hung onto the rail. Talk about stacking tolerances!
Uriah Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2018, 10:52   #11
yovinny
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uriah Lee View Post
Years ago I was involved in the installation of a very large planer-mill. It was amazing to study the old millwrights building the machine. It was as much an art form based on experience as a technical exercise. Level the bed ways. Then square the columns to the bed. Then the rail to the table which traveled over the bed ways. Followed with two heads to the columns and two more heads hung onto the rail. Talk about stacking tolerances!
Ive worked on lots of smaller machines, mills, grinders, planers, drills, etc..The biggest was probably a Rockford column mill, dual 100hp heads and 8x30' table.
We did have a K&T gantry mill up in IL with dual 150hp heads and a 14x80' table, but the final tuning work was done by an outside company and all with lasers.
Still, I cant say how many times I had to retram one of the heads on that thing,,,they were always running it into stuff about every month,,,
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2018, 11:12   #12
tac-40
Moderator
Armed Curmudgeon
 
tac-40's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 12090
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: SC-Low Country
Posts: 7,770
Of the couple (meaning 3) of machining centers I have seen, they were installed and set up by the manufacturer/seller.
__________________
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you. Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Schools uses to start with the "three R's". Reading, writing, and arithmetic. Now they start with the "three D's". Dipshitery, Dumbassery, and Douchebaggery-Retired Bum

If you do in fact have a problem, you have the rest of your life to solve it. How long your life lasts only depends on how well you solve it.
tac-40 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2018, 12:40   #13
Uriah Lee
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 81151
Join Date: May 2018
Location: SE Michigan
Posts: 120
A lot of the smaller machining centers are unified into one unit. Leveling becomes a matter of making level to the floor without inducing a twist that will warp everything out of square. Spindle, cross slides, tool changers, and such are machined as a single unit at the factory.

Larger units have separate beds for tables, columns, and tool changers. That can be a real head scratcher to get done right. The factory likes to have their own chosen crew set the busier ones. Smaller ones can get by with an observer on site to supervise. From what I have seen, a whole lot of concrete goes into a thick floating foundation to prevent introduced vibration. The installation is as important as the equipment. A bad install will turn the best machinery into a poor performer.
Uriah Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2018, 19:21   #14
2barearms
I really don't hate you..
Bronze Contributor
 
2barearms's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 13866
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 14,599
Depending on how thick and level the slab is will determine what method you use. It’s pretty heavy. What sort of levelers does it have and how many points of contact...our water jet is pretty heavy tank is about 6ft x 13ft and 40” tall. Full of sand and water it’s a beast. They used foam and epoxy underneath it.

You might have to core drill the floor and put piers in.
__________________
"Owning a Firearm doesn't make you Armed any more than owning a Guitar makes you a Musician"

Was mich nicht umbringt macht mich stärker
2barearms is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2018, 19:37   #15
hueyville
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 74557
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Foothills of the Blueridge Mountains
Posts: 5,618
I purchased a Gerber Sabre 8"×50"×100" CNC router and a Haas VF3 and had both installed by the techs from factory as didn't want to screw up perfectly good, brand new high dollar machines. When bought my 60" tool room lathe, Bridgeport and Mill got them in the building myself then had a millwright set them up and prep them to run. Some things are better outsourced while you do what your specialty is.
__________________
A time will come when people will not listen to accurate teachings. Instead, they will follow their own desires and surround themselves with teachers who tell them what they want to hear. 2 Timothy 4:3 G.W.T.
"If it is worth doing once...it's worth doing it a few more times to get it right." Stimpsonjcat
hueyville is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 14, 2018, 21:22   #16
Bama Steve
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 1982
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Where I am
Posts: 5,469
Quote:
Originally Posted by yovinny View Post
Its all basically the same, needs to be all on the same plane. Level is just a 'known' thing or baseline to work from.
Tram is totaly different than level..Tram has to do with different parts relationship to each other.
A mill or other machine gets leveled, a mill head gets tramed (squared) to its table surface.
A lathe head gets tramed (axial aligned) to its bedway.
Not to be a prick but,

How is tramming the machine to the floor/mounting base any different than the other aspects of the process?

Best!

__________________
Being dyslexic has a bright side - it's easy to put things back together
Bama Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2018, 05:36   #17
yovinny
Registered
Bronze Contributor
 
yovinny's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 7679
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: NY transplant to central Illinois, Now in Kentucky
Posts: 5,773
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bama Steve View Post
Not to be a prick but,

How is tramming the machine to the floor/mounting base any different than the other aspects of the process?

Best!

Because it is not 'trammed' into a specific alignment with the 'floor',,the floor is no standard or critical plane in relationship to the machine. No floor is ever a perfect plane, let alone level.
'Tram' refers to a critical alignment spec between different things or parts on a machine and although it can, it usually has no relation to 'level'.
I gave you 2 examples of tramming with completely different types of critical alignments. Neither has anything to do with being half a bubble off...

Cheers, yv
yovinny is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2018, 06:01   #18
gunners
Member
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 55824
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Seattle, Washington
Posts: 286
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bama Steve View Post
Not to be a prick but,

How is tramming the machine to the floor/mounting base any different than the other aspects of the process?

Best!

Precision machinist - tooling maker - going on 4 decades. Simplest answer is I use a Starrett precision level on the 12,000 pound CNC to level it and I use Interapid indicator's to tram in surface's relative to something else (the table, a vise, a fixture, a part ...) for machining purposes. Hope that help's - kinda.

Last edited by gunners; October 15, 2018 at 06:24.
gunners is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2018, 11:35   #19
idsubgun
"Comfortably Numb"
Bronze Contributor
 
idsubgun's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 3100
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: In the woods of Missouri
Posts: 10,395
I've done a few in my career. I have a Starrett 18" precision level for leveling, and any indicators needed for tramming.
Level across your ways, and lock in your leveling legs, and then go about tramming your spindle.

Really NOT a big deal!

Yovinny already told you the difference between leveling and tramming.
idsubgun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2018, 17:44   #20
Bama Steve
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 1982
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Where I am
Posts: 5,469
Thanks for the lesson and direction, guys - it's always nice to see new names chime-in where they are needed.

__________________
Being dyslexic has a bright side - it's easy to put things back together
Bama Steve is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 15, 2018, 18:19   #21
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 17,334
A 12,000 pound "thing" in any building, with moving parts, I'd just like to see pictures of it!

And to answer your question, I have zero idea, just curious listening to those that do.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2018, 00:56   #22
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,357
We got it unloaded and set into position. It's not level yet, but I have approximately the same load on each of the six feet that support it. That's all I care about for now. The factory can do a bona-fide level on it when he comes down soon.

Thanks Yovinny!. Yes I do know the difference between level and trammed. I need to tram the head on my mill right now, I had to move it in order to fly-cut some valve notches on a set of pistons the other day.
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2018, 01:09   #23
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,357
Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowhand View Post
A 12,000 pound "thing" in any building, with moving parts, I'd just like to see pictures of it!

And to answer your question, I have zero idea, just curious listening to those that do.
Two of my buddies that attend the local engine building trade school. I help them out whenever possible. They came over to pay me back today. They served together in Iraq.

Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2018, 01:25   #24
Right Side Up
Old Fart
Silver Contributor
 
Right Side Up's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 43
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,357
Quote:
Originally Posted by idsubgun View Post
I've done a few in my career. I have a Starrett 18" precision level for leveling, and any indicators needed for tramming.
Level across your ways, and lock in your leveling legs, and then go about tramming your spindle.

Really NOT a big deal!

Yovinny already told you the difference between leveling and tramming.
Thanks Bill!
Right Side Up is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2018, 01:29   #25
yellowhand
Dinosaur
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 67949
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Sierra Vista AZ
Posts: 17,334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right Side Up View Post
Two of my buddies that attend the local engine building trade school. I help them out whenever possible. They came over to pay me back today. They served together in Iraq.

Wow!
12,000 pounds.
Once its down, it ain't moving, guess that's required, can't be bouncing around at all for precision work.
I thought my large wood lathe was heavy.
__________________
You may find me dead in a ditch one day, on my knees, but I will be up to my waist in spent rifle brass.

It ain't the firearms they are wanting to be rid of, its you!
yellowhand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2018, 08:03   #26
idsubgun
"Comfortably Numb"
Bronze Contributor
 
idsubgun's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 3100
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: In the woods of Missouri
Posts: 10,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right Side Up View Post
Thanks Bill!
You're welcome but really didn't help much.

If you ever do this again, give me a holler. I'm just up the road in Missouri, have all the tools and am retired. I'll just make a road trip to Tejas!
idsubgun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2018, 08:05   #27
idsubgun
"Comfortably Numb"
Bronze Contributor
 
idsubgun's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 3100
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: In the woods of Missouri
Posts: 10,395
Question:

Did you make sure you set ALL the leveling legs, and there isn't any you missed in the center?

Who is setting the parameters? You really should have a pro set them. I RARELY touched them because you can really screw it up if you don't know what you're doing.
It'd be money well spent to have a local company come in to check, and reset, the parameters, if needed.

EDIT:

I didn't see your post above (#22) about factory rep coming in. Good!


.

Last edited by idsubgun; October 16, 2018 at 08:16.
idsubgun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 16, 2018, 15:38   #28
mountainman
Registered
 
mountainman's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 14702
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Deltona FL
Posts: 4,356
do you have at least 6" of concrete under that thing? Tramming on that thing sis done with lasers so you won't have to worry about that and leveling is just done with the legs like ID said and a starret level. Done deal. Moving it is the skill.
__________________
PM me if you need something not advertised for sale.
mountainman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 17, 2018, 09:52   #29
Jarhead504
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 65022
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: New Orleans Area,LA
Posts: 3,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by Right Side Up View Post
Does anyone here know much about leveling a 12,000 pound CNC machining center?
Duh! Just Google it and check it out on youtube! You can learn brain surgery form youtube so I am sure they have the info on how to level and tram a 12K piece of machinery. Who needs trades, right?

Glad to be of ass-is-tance.

Jarhead
Jarhead504 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old October 22, 2018, 21:19   #30
abbynormal
Registered
 
abbynormal's Avatar
 
FALaholic #: 18513
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Indy
Posts: 452
Go to your local fabricator supply house. Buy shim stock or the thinest
steel they have. Use 4 levels and the screw bases that came with your machine.

Level to the best of your ability, then use the shim stock to tweek to perfect

Not hard, once you've done it once.
__________________
"The safest place to be is behind Mississippi when he fires that thing"
abbynormal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 23, 2018, 09:47   #31
Bug Tussell
.....
Silver Contributor
 
FALaholic #: 2872
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Bug Tussell Farm in New Mexico
Posts: 5,624
I am most impressed with the mad skills you guys gots. I have a hard enough time aligning my radial arm saw...
__________________
Make your time
Bug Tussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old October 25, 2018, 22:02   #32
Imbel '02
Registered
 
FALaholic #: 27003
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Rainier, WA
Posts: 35
I was going to recommend a cruise missle until I read your post.
__________________
It's beginning.....are you ready?
Imbel '02 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:13.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
©1998-2018 The FAL Files