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Old July 14, 2017, 17:23   #1
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LeHigh 308 Ammunition

Guy brought huge pile of this in LGS today:





Quote:
The CQ is a lightweight, hyper velocity design using an aluminum core and pre-stressed jacket. The aluminum core initiates the expansion slightly after contact, pressing back into the pre-stressed jacket and activating a violent, incapacitating energy transfer. The aluminum nose optimizes feeding and provides a barrier blind entry. The pre-stressed jacket separates into petals sized for appropriate penetration based on the specific cartridge. These petals, base, and core are all designed to penetrate no more than 18", transferring a huge amount of energy to the target in a very short timeframe. The design of the individual high mass/high energy petals overcome other designs that use powdered metal or plastic composite projectiles that disintegrate upon impact. The energy is there; our goal is to utilize every bit of it and dumping it all on the surface in a non-vital area is not appropriate for a personal defense design.

This technology utilizes the hyper velocity to transfer enormous energy based on mass-energy equivalence, E=1/2MVSq. Given that the system pressure of each cartridge is fixed to some value determined by SAAMI, any increase in bullet weight or velocity will both increase the muzzle energy, but will also increase the chamber pressure. In the equation E=1/2MVSq if the bullet weight is doubled, the energy is doubled, if the velocity is doubled, the energy is quadrupled, in effect, terminal energy can be increased while maintaining the same chamber pressure by decreasing the bullet weight and increasing the velocity.

While the math is straightforward, other constraints enter into the system: is there an appropriate powder available to increase the velocity, will the gun semi-auto function with a different pressure curve, will the increase in energy be able to be utilized? With our ability to quickly modify projectile geometry and features through cnc machining, we have been able to address the constraints of a light, high energy projectile and the results have been staggering.


Quote:
Controlled Chaos Bullets and Ammunition
The development of this technology was the result of an animal control agency's request for a no lead .243 bullet that would provide extensive wound trauma with little minimal pass through energy.* Basically the idea was to burst the bullet into numerous particles at a predetermined depth creating many wounds and a large temporary cavity with shot placement at or near the central nervous system.* The agency had tried copper matrix frangible rounds and found the penetration depth and particle size were less than what was require for proper terminal performance.

The bullet is designed to penetrate to a specific depth and to fracture as the internal hydraulic pressure exceeds the hoop strength of the nose design. *At the time of fracture, a massive energy spike is released as the particles break away and radiate outward from the initial trajectory path. *this energy spike and resulting temporary cavity sends a shock wave through the animal's circulatory and nervous systems immediately shutting down the functioning of these systems.

Since the development of the .243 bullet, we have successfully taken this design to other calibers.* The Controlled Chaos technology differs from the Controlled Fracturing technology in that the fracturing particles are smaller, the penetration depth of the smaller particles is less, and the initial energy transfer is greater.* These features make this an excellent bullet choice for: varmint hunting, animal culling, fur hunting, and personal defense.*
Not a single box of the 69 grain High Velocity Close Quarters made it to the shelf. Taking enough of the 146 grain Controlled Chaos to totally change my load outs if it shoots and not lament letting a bargain in a factory exotic get away. Owner cuts us such a good deal on trade in guns and especially ammo have to jump fast before next days shift shows up and it's gone. Worst case it will make great trade bait to some of the tacticool crowd if doesn't test to suit me. But can see potential use for the lightweight high velocity as it's supposed to grenade soon after penetration. The Controlled Chaos is a little more traditional but it's a huge open tip in a turned copper solid projectile. Will be fun making gello quiver with this anyway. If it works and point of impact anywhere close could see a stack of magazines stacked with a mix of the Controlled Chaos and M80A1 being the ruin of a zombies night. Hard shell or soft, just double tap and either way their going down hard.
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Old July 15, 2017, 00:46   #2
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So, how much?
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Old July 15, 2017, 07:39   #3
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The Controlled Chaos is all over the map online. Seen from $17.95 to $35.99 per box. Here is best deal on the net.

http://beckammunition.com/308-win-14...led-chaos.html

We were able to get it a little cheaper as guy trading was really wanting an item his pocketbook wouldn't reach so he traded a pile of ammo and rifles plus cash to make the deal happen. Put a dozen boxes of the Controlled Chaos in my pile and all the Close Quarters but was not much of it. Plan to burn some of each today as out working. Luck has it one job puts me less than four miles from a range I have access to. Plan to shoot just enough to verify point of impact at 25, 50 and 100 with and without suppressor. Hopefully one or both will fall inside battle specs of M80A1 so mixing them in single mags will be viable. Don't like to be limited to one flavor of ammo without changing magazines in unforseen circumstances. Have and M80 load that hits within 1/2" of M80A1 in the bedside FAL suppressed or non. Hopefully one of these will fall in as close. Hate burning too much expensive ammo when can be launching cast or pull downs in the cheap.
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Old July 15, 2017, 15:42   #4
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Went back and manager let me clean the shelf for less than cost of components if rolled them myself.



60 cents per round on ammo like this was a bargain but having the $17 price found on net helped negotiating a tad. On huge amount of our trade in ammo owner piles up for employee range days and gives us option buy trade in ammo cheap. Never can tell when might get something not expecting. Seen people try to pass off reloads as factory new. Also get a.lot.of partial boxes which are hard to retail as are rounds that come in packaged in zip lock baggie.

I think about stuff like the people who were spiking over the counter meds killing people at random forcing all the super tamper proof packaging imagine someone pulling down a 300 Win Mag round, refilling to neck with Bullseye or similar fast pistol powder then slipping in a box at an LGS. If I owned the shop every box would have a shop branded seal on both ends and signs saying "if open a box you bought it". Would let employees open for serious shoppers then reseal but these folks that have a habit of opening 20 or 30 different boxes just to look at the shiny bullets would not fly. Imagine I make up some special ammo and mark the box before trading in. Have brother in law come buy following day and set up a "safe" Kaboom but fake just enough injuries to go with Kaboom rifle and LGS insurance company would be tripping over themselves trying to write a fast settlement check.

Why most trade in ammo goes in employee shooting festival pile or sold to us cheap. This cane from very reliable client who purchased from our store. Some clients we totally trust so when they trade ammo putting on shelf is no issue but employees still get first shot at good price. Had no idea what it was when purchased yesterday so didn't take it all. Went by range early this morning and at 25 and 50 yards both the 79 grain and 145 grain were close to point.of impact of M80 and M80A1. At 100 the 79 was getting loopy and guess it's called Close Quarters ammunition for more than one reason. The 145 grain Controlled Chaos unless dialed scope up to full 4x and used the rifle rest it hit so close to others could not call it after the fact. If shot five shot groups with care the M80A1 is an inch higher than my civilian M80 clone ammo. The Controlled Chaos was an inch above the M80A1 thus a 2" vertical spread and it went about a quarter inch right. LeHigh 145 grain grouped better than all the others. Of course it's a 16" short gas FAL so call it a group or a pattern, the 145 LeHigh was close enough to M80 for government work. In a turn bolt or M1a Super Match with 12x or higher power scope it would mess your grouping up something terrible to mix the three.

Edit:
On way home passed a guy selling watermelons out of back of truck. Stopped and asked of had any bad melons or damaged could not sell. Let me have two slightly damaged watermelons for $2 each. Just busted them, one with the 69 grain Close Quarters and the other with a Controlled Chaos. Glad the new high speed/slow motion cameras were in waterproof housings. When get the time to edit, do titles, credits, etc it's pretty impressive what these bullets do. Usually a 308 does not exert energy early enough to blow up watermelons like good large caliner handgun ammo but both were able to get down to business while still in the melon. Was pretty obvious the just punched holes in rind as entered but soon as got into meat of melon began a process that blew Tha rear half clean away. Basically a launchable juicing machine so if your one of the cool people that grind up fruit these make it much more fun but would need a really big tarp to catch the goo. Can tell the new video ability is going to be a lot of fun and cost me a lot of time and money.
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Last edited by hueyville; July 15, 2017 at 17:13.
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Old July 22, 2017, 20:51   #5
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Supposedly they have an upgraded version of the 79gr with a titanium tip now. These are 3800 fps from a 22"
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Old August 04, 2017, 21:55   #6
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Been to LeHigh website and the 79 grain 3,475 fps ammo is all I can find other than 145 and 110 grain Controlled Chaos. 3,800 fps and titanium tip would be interesting. While can move them faster, 3,800 to 3,900 fps is about most consistent speed launching SS109 green tips from 308 using sabots. Can approach 6,000 fps but bullet goes totally crazy pretty quick. If was using as a key from a few inches like a 12 gauge door breaching round the higher speeds might be usefull. Have over 2,000 of the M855 A1 pull down projectiles now and working with them in 22 Nosler currently trying to get maximum stable velocity. Sure will try them in 30 caliber sabots for the 308's by fall but no real point other than knowledge if LeHigh actually has a titanium tip at 3,800 fps.
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Old August 05, 2017, 06:13   #7
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Did some research looking for a factory loaded 3,800 fps 308 round. As of 2016 SHOT Show Liberty claims to have the fastest and not found anyone who claims to outrun it. Have some and have fired it, works and is impressive in gellitan but unsure how well it would punch through shoulder bone of big animal.


Quote:
Bradenton, Fla. –*Liberty Ammunition*is unveiling the first hunting round, the .308 Winchester, in their new Animal Instinct ammunition line at the*2016 SHOT Show*in Las Vegas, Nevada, Jan. 19 – 22, 2016. The Liberty Ammunition .308 Win is the fastest at 3,500 FPS, and exits a rifle with a muzzle energy of 2,700 FPE. This lead-free copper monolithic, fragmenting hollow-point Liberty Ammunition round is the next generation of one of the most popular hunting and long range rounds in existence.

“Animal Instinct ammunition is optimized to deliver the most extreme energy transfer at impact, while still providing exceptional penetration, giving hunters that ‘ONE & DONE’ capability they seek,” Matt Phillips, VP of Sales and Marketing for Liberty Ammunition explained. “Animal Instinct’s match grade accuracy and noticeable low recoil allows the hunter to be more proficient while making the shooting/hunting experience more enjoyable.”

Hunters, law enforcement officers and military operators alike, will all benefit tremendously from Liberty Ammunition’s Animal Instinct line, providing them pinpoint accuracy, significant increase in lethality, and low recoil for more control

Liberty Ammunition Animal Instinct .308 Winchester Specifications:

Description:*********************************** Copper Monolithic, Fragmenting Hollow Point, Lead Free
Hunting Round
Weight:****************************************** 100 gr.
Velocity:***************************************** 3500 FPS
Kinetic Energy: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *>2700 FPE
Accuracy:*************************************** 1 MOA @ 500 yds.
Terminal Effect: * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * >5” W x 16” D
At LGS we sell a pile of the Liberty Civil Defense Handgun and fair amount of rifle fodder. The handgun version is mostly ultra light, ultra fast, lead free, frangible ammo. Actually ran a box of the 45 acp 79 grain 1,900 fps fodder for testing and it was not overly impressive. If placed a typical barrier in front of target bullet was already scattering to the wind before inflicting what I would call incapacitating trauma. Have fired the 380 at 1,500 fps with an unimpressive 250 ft/lbs of energy and the 40 Smith at 2,000 fps with a 60 grain bullet. They make fair claims on penetration in ballistics gellitan but tested like RIP Ammo and some other trick ponys if any type of barrier was introduced. Shoot it through a car or truck door and it spits dust and a little copper disk at target on other side. Just a piece of 1/2" MDF used in typical Wallyworld desks or bookshelves initiate theIR expansion so violently a person 6" to 12" on other side is very likely to only take a bit of spall.

Tested a lot of RIP and even in 45 acp once it hits 1/4" plywood, interior door, car door or similar the petals break off and are done then their 40 grain penetrator has such little gas left I doubt it would take someone out of a fight unless your just plain lucky. Both look great in gellitan but any barrier including 2 layer leather or four layer denim takes significant sting out of both the Liberty, RIP and other similar new high velocity frangible defense rounds. Friend of mine bought two boxes of RIP in 380, 9mm and 45 acp. Said chambering first round of the RIP one of the petals caught on feed ramp of pistol, bent back and bound up the little pocket gun so bad it was a two person operation to get it cleared. Had one similar incident though not as bad shooting around 100 total rounds in various calibers and pistols. Thanksgiving my brother was showing me his new Ruger with laser sight and RIP ammo. Said just pull out of pocket, put red dot on threat and squeeze then the magic bullet will do the rest. Asked him if had shot any yet and tested to which he replied it was way too expensive for target practice. Found this common among consumers, buy one 20 round box of trick bullets, 50 round box of range ammo, shoot a couple mags of the range ammo, load pistol with their $3 per round magic bullets.

Have had a few guys come in after buying the Liberty Civil Defense Handgun ammo and had a bullet break when hit feed ramp and jam pistol or leave it full of bits of bullet that subsiquently bound up pistol. The LeHigh ammo have tested does well. The 79 grain penetrates target and expands even through an interior home door or 1/4" plywood but after two layers of drywall it's coming apart. The 145 grain Controlled Chaos holds together relatively well through thin barriers and seems to get its job done though not fully through first box of each yet but thus far are testing better than expected. Going to have to burn my box of Liberty 308 ammo now to see how it performs under myriad of situations.

If could put my hands on some copper or brass sabots like much of the 30 caliber military ammo uses rather than polymer sabots believe it would change the rules. When push polymer hard it slips the rifling or believe bullet slips in sabot and doesn't spin up to full rpm potential. Can't prove that as don't have a camera of device to measure that idea. Have tried light adhesive and helped accuracy but lost velocity as sabots either didn't release from sub caliber bullet, released inconsistently or even had petals open and slow bullet like some of the reduced range training ammo have used with "air brakes". At times testing with polymer sabots discovered a "plastic coated" bore from fouling when try to exceed 4,000 fps by much.

The LeHigh 79 grain bullet construction is very promising to get performance with accuracy, fair penetration and violet expansion. Best have tested and magazine of CETME behind bedroom door is loaded with it if had to use and not sure where wife might be located in house. The Controlled Chaos have only exposed to a couple of quick barriers but made it through and then did well on target. Need some of the 110 grain and time to set up controlled testing of the three. Really like testing all the new items but for most part traditional copper jacket, lead core technology has only been eclipsed with copper solids and some of the new dot mil rounds. Wife actually asked me yesterday if wanted to quit work and play with guns and bullets full time but told her without some income, new toys, feeding them and keeping bills paid at shop where do most of my playing would get into savings and retirement funds fast. I like working and gives me lots of opportunities way different business are structured, always planned to work till dead.
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Old August 07, 2017, 21:36   #8
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The lehigh at 79gr is definitely faster than the 100gr Liberty:

https://youtu.be/0angzIZC0oY

https://youtu.be/AfrjZws7Fws
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Old August 22, 2017, 11:04   #9
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WOW, another magic bullet :
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Old August 25, 2017, 10:22   #10
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Warning: Long Magic Bullet Response

Quote:
Originally Posted by gw104 View Post
WOW, another magic bullet :
Not magic but many new technology projectiles have a place in certain circumstances. Would not use many as a general purpose defensive round. But if not willing to properly test and embrace new technologies would still be using either the one variety of military ball from 1970's or soft point hunting bullet. When I first began really shooting centerfire rifles really had three choices of technology let's consider 308/7.62 first. Could load my first battle rifle (Springfield M1a) with ~150 grain ball, jacketed soft points or shoehorn a Swift A-Frame big/dangerous game bullet. Yes, we did have hollow point match and Palma bullets but idea of expensive paper punching projectiles for defense/offense was not really common. With my SP1 AR 15 had choice of 55 grain milspec ball, jacketed soft point or hollow point varmint bullet. Rifle armor was so uncommon pretty much a 168 grain soft point was kept in the battle rifle or 55 grain soft point in the AR. Keep a few mags of ball in mag pouch and that was it unless experimented with bullet swaging equipment. Now we have a lot of very good multipurpose bullets and a ton of quality specialized bullets and more useless gimmicks than can be counted. Have family and friends that always have the latest gimmick to have a flashy magazine ad or internet website and few uTube videos from shills showing them in best conditions with malfunctions on editing room floor.

The 145 grain Controlled Chaos is absolute mayhem on muscle, organs and other tissue but is in no way a replacement for milspec ball or a quality hunting round. The Chaos or 79 grain high velocity would not do well breaking the shoulder of a game animal or skull of attacking bear and why neither are in either magwell of the upstairs full size battle rifles. Have a 20 round magazine of the 79 grain High Velocity and two of the Controlled Chaos on night stand along with a stack ball if have low odds situation where lots of rounds are needed. In other stack are 30 round magazines loaded with a mix of Controlled Chaos and M80 ball for those situations where may not know if your zombies are hard shell or soft shell variety. Slam one in and double taps will ensure that zombie with hard shell gets a hole through shell and soft shell has wound channel can drive a truck through. Will I ever need to actually make that choice? Had a battle rifle, assault rifle and 1911 bedside for almost 40 years and yet to have to bust a primer and pray it stays that way. That said I still test new options and if a better choice comes along then it will replace at least one, hopefully two existing choices.

Currently the 16" short gas FAL with suppressor has 30 round magazine of 220 grain subsonic frangible seated in mag well. Beside it are the stacks of spare specialty rounds clearly discernable of which is which. The FAL rifle plate rated vest has six mags of M80 Ball so it's 100% traditional general purpose. In bedside rack on my side are five other long guns each with a mission specific load and optics, can grab whichever feel most appropriate for what might be coming through the cracks or running the yard. Wife's side of bed are four rifles that she will use from cover as I make contact if structure is compromised. She chooses between an AR's in 5.7×28 with night vision compatible optics and milspec ammo, 5.56 with thermal optic and red dot or 5.56 with standard night vision and red dot. Both have Tubbs DTAC 69 grain SMK's in Lake City brass. We actually train for variety of scenarios which are drawn from a "hat" and immediately go into movement. There is no single best or magic bullet but better choices based on situation.

Because of my complex sleep apnea often at some point she moves to other bedroom, pokes me till I abandon ship for spare or if neighbors hunting dogs go loopy barking and can't find any coyotes or other varmints to drill we both head for spare as can't hear dogs. It's easier than complaining about barking dog. Spare bedroom there is a night vision compatible 5.7×28 and thermal sighted 5.56 AR on her side of bed. 16" 6.8 spc II with 90 grain Gold Dots, 14.7" 5.56 thermal sighted AR with 69 grain Tubbs DTAC, 11.5" suppressed SBR with M855A1 and Winchester 12 gauge pump with #4 Buck and two varieties of specialized shells in receiver and butt stock mounted spare ammo carriers. For 6.8 have mag pouch loaded with more 90 grain Gold Dots and second pouch of 6.8 AP. For the 5.56 rifles have a mag pouch of more DTAC and another with M855A1. If wife and I have split bedrooms in middle of night we have trained for how to work without shooting each other. Feel darn lucky to have a wife that insists on regular training and reminds me if behind on her quarterly qualifications.

Don't fall for magic bullets but test almost everything that comes out. Why most of our handguns have Hornady Critical Defense then stuff like RIP and Liberty Civil Defense don't make it past testing but know why its useless. FAL with 220 grain subsonic frangible's are great structure clearing rounds unless zombies have hard shells then either swap magazines or pick up CETME with AP if not time to switch mags in the FAL. 25% chance the Browning A5 with Nordic Components +8 tube will come out of rack as 13 rounds of 12 gauge gives me a warm fuzzy feeling. Bandoleer with 60 extra shells is hanging from post of headboard next to shotgun on both beds. Never use a wrench when need a screwdriver or a pair of pliers when a sledgehammer is called for. Our system is 25 years in development since wife took up with me in this house. Occasionally switch a rifle (6.8's really changed or racking order) or a type ammo but its always based on testing then reinforced with training to aclimate to new configuration.

Have discovered at 75 yards (distance to farthest corner of fence from house) that Controlled Chaos and M80 ball hit close enough to each other that can be loaded in same magazine and worse case have a two inch difference in point of impact. So the stack of 30 round FAL mags are loaded as such. The 30 round in rifle with 220 grain subsonic frangible's are super quiet in a structure and feel that 90% of situations would be settled in first few rounds unless multiple zombies and the advantage of no muzzle blast and low sound signature after dark makes the homeowner here at the Ponderosa a much less obvious target as not announcing position with big ball of fire or sonic crack. At room to room distances unless zombies have super shells (Level 3++ or Level 4) a double tap of the big heavy frangible's to hip will sit them down and bleed them out so fast doubt will be able to continue the fight.

Yes, this is a lot of paranoia and over preparedness but it makes me and wife happy and like my rifle racks on either side of headboard of both upstairs bedrooms. As wifes mobility issues necome worse, more guns she wants in easy to access locations and all her handguns have the new Hornady Critical Defense Low Recoil so her life could easily come down to a new "magic" bullet design. Wife has some liberal relatives that come visit on occasion. Will have magazines out, bolts locked open and racks locked in "guest" bedroom and quite often they will ask me to remove rifles completely as fear they might accidentally discharge. Try to explain a rifle with no magazine, no ammo, open bolt and locked in rack is no more dangerous than a pair of socks they still get all freaked out. It's a joy when they go looking for a utensil in kitchen and find a loaded wheel gun and few speed loaders in drawer.
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Old October 21, 2017, 20:36   #11
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My massive buy on the trade in ammo at LGS got me curious. Started digging around and suddenly discovered thsee folks offer projectiles from .223 38 grain Controlled Chaos to barrier blind then fracture on zombie projectiles for the 50 BMG, 45 Caliber 300 Grain Solid Copper Wide Flat Nose handgun projectiles to subsonic fracturing bullets for 300 BO that look like a small scale model of a UFO from that goofy show on History Channel and black powder bullets that with the new inline suppressed muzzle loader might be able to hold off zombies.

https://www.midwayusa.com/s?targetLo...ItemsPerPage=0

Do yourself a favor, click on link and scroll from top to bottom of page. This is just part of their total offerings. Already realized the projectiles from this one company are going to cost me over $1,000 just to buy test boxes for experimenting and cost me a year of time. Have what some may think are odd designs but some have seen others imitate and some that tell me they have an evil genius that gives "Pinky and The Brain" nightmares.
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Old October 21, 2017, 21:07   #12
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Lehigh knows what they’re doing. I would trust my life with their products in a second.
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Old October 22, 2017, 09:36   #13
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I am wondering how many engineers, machinists and ballistics technicians these guys have on staff to develop all of these projectiles, loaded ammo and then who the client base is that keeps them all paid. At the retail price point can't be that many average shooters supporting these products. Projectiles packaged in 50 round boxes only on most product seems to imply reloaders are not going in heavy. Only thing can think of are special ops, SWAT and other groups with big bloated budgets don't mind sending these things down range for training and their "work". Some can see professional hunters or guides using in their backup weapon for the moment the bear/tiger/cheetah/rhino is about to knaw or trample them to death. Very interested in some of their handgun projectiles though always been a factory ammo carry guy for litigation purposes. But going to buy some of their 380 and 9mm projectiles and if test super well it may be better to risk litigation alive than wishing had a better bullet as lay in the street bleeding out after getting a round or two on perps but didn't anchor them.

Had abandoned the 300 BO subsonic as with traditional projectiles a 200 to 220 grain subsonic round wasn't worth supporting a weapon that's only real point is shooting subsonic. 300 BO supersonic lobs an arc that makes no sense compared to 5.56, 6.8 spc II or 7.62 NATO full power. Can go subsonic with my 308's and 6.8 if need decided to eliminate risk of a 300 magazine finding it's way in a 5.56 if had several friends at range that only shoot occasionally and can get a little excited and ignorant at same time. Seen too many 300 BO in 5.56 rifle KaBooms at local ranges and brought in LGS asking us to save their rifle not counting internet that tore mine down and sold barrels.

Now I want to screw one up just to test all the 300 BO subsonic projectiles that Lehigh sells. Will more likely order a box of each loaded and run through a borrowed 300 to test and then if proves extraordinary subsonic performance will build another pair of BO's and order some cans. This is a ludicrously expensive hobby to pursue without agency financial support.

A few 300 BO subsonic recovered projectiles from non company advertising. Small sampling.











Company picture:



194 Grain Maximum Expansion.



None 300 BO LeHigh ammo:









A 70 grain LeHigh weighed after firing, full expansion and 100% weight retention.



As have been digging around for these pictures the old saying of "build a better mousetrap..." is still true and appears there is a huge subculture using these things in factory configuration and for reloading. Had never seen any till the big LGS trade in, bought some, tested and then went back and took them all home. Have alost 400 total rounds of 308 in three different bullet styles. The FAL next to bed has the 79 grain Close Quarters in it and CETME in corner of bedroom has the Controlled Chaos. Have spare magazines of both along with Modern Arms International 220 grain subsonic frangible but have to crank up gas if want FAL to cycle reliably. Have to work today as have outpatient tomorrow but then 36 hours of recovery time to put together a mixed order of everything from 380 to 338 Lapua.

Definitely want to test some 9mm, 45 acp in factory trim as may become my carry ammo or have a couple magazines in pouch for needed circumstances. Not only going to test the extreme expansion but the projectiles that look like a Phillips head screwdriver, the big Keith style copper solids in magnum wheel guns and the exteme cavitation bullets. If any of them test better than my Hornady Critical Duty in all my standard tests will switch. The Hornady Critical Duty has tested better than any round to date. Use a 1/2" piece of plywood, car door or sheet metal, four layer denim, two layer leather and single layer cotton in front of clay block or gellitan as my benchmarks. That simulates a zombie behind standard structure door, car door, heavy clothing and almost no clothing as some good barrier bullets just zip through test material if don't have something heavy to initiate expansion and some high expanding rounds with cotton plug with denim or leather and don't expand. Pray I never have to defend myself with a gun and my lifetime of testing ammo will have just been a hobby but if there is a better bullet I want it if the crap hits the fan.

Some people can't imagine burning $250 to $500 in expensive custom ammo testing before use. Friend purchased multiple boxes of RIP in 380 and 9mm. First round of 380 one of the sharp petals his feed ramp, bent to rear and jammed gun requiring significant effort to clear. He tried again and had failure to feed properly again on first magazine and poor penetration if used any kind of barrier heavy as a denim coat. Tried in another 380 with same results and 9mm fed in his Glocks but performed miserably. I had similar results with 380, 9mm, 38, 40 and 45. All was purchased as partial boxes dirt cheap from people who tried it. He ran eight rounds frrom two boxes of 380, seven rounds of 9mm from three boxes and sold to me dirt cheap. Got my others same way.

At family event soon after hit market and the little Ruger 380 with integral laser came out brother was proud to show me his new Ruger 380 with laser and dropped mag so could show me his RIP ammo. Asked him if tested any and said no, asked how he knew laser was on target said he tested it with a few rounds of ball like the RIP (or all flavors of 380) will have same point of impact. Told him had mostly full boxes and some full where person purchased multiple boxes. Told him all had failures, I had failures and they wouldn't punch a heavy leather coat except for the little base and it would only penetrate a few inches unless hit bone and stopped. His answer was had seen the makers and other Utube videos plus read articles that said was most deadly ammo on market. Cost was too expensive to shoot unless had to defend self or family. Lots of others like that. Also lots that run a couple mags into test media with their gun before carry.

The Liberty Civil Defense frangible light bullets at warp speed are another expensive failure as tested in multiple cartridges. Have likely spent thousands of dollars over years testing hyped up ammo that failed. The LeHigh seems to have enough folks outside of company and sponsored bloggers used and are fully drinking to kool-aid so now I test more and decide if it's time to lay another $1,000 in various caliber ammo if is actually a better mousetrap. Expect to spend enough to build and feed a mid grade AR just to know myself how all these odd bullets behave in my universe.
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Old October 29, 2017, 22:41   #14
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Hey Huey, you working up loads for these? Or have you rolled up a few of your own already? I was looking at Lehigh’s website... A bit pricey, but I wouldn’t mind working up a load for my para fal... shoot, even some .45 acp projectiles would be pretty nice to have for a edc pistol
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Old November 01, 2017, 07:54   #15
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In looking at price of components versus loaded ammunition and weighing the legal implications of using handloads for defense in court decided to go the factory loaded route. Got LGS signed up as a retailer and buy at wholesale and ask owner what he wants to add to my orders for store. Imagine cost of working up loads in two bullet designs for four or five calibers. Just projectiles sent down range initial ladder tests then refining loads puts me a pretty good inventory in stock. Luckily I scored 18 total boxes of the 308 Controlled Chaos and eight boxes of the 79 grain High Velocity Close Quarters at $12 per box. As mentioned when started this thread LGS owner would rather sell trade in ammo to employees or use on employee range days than put in shelf.

Have my list and waiting on LGS owner to decide what wants to put in inventory then going to make a bulk order on loaded ammo. Going to get six more Controlled Chaos and dozen more High Velocity Close Quarters plus a couple boxes of 308 subsonic to test. Then a couple boxes each of their three most popular 300 BO subsonic rounds, three of their 5.56 designs, a couple boxes of 380, 9mm, 40 and 45 in different designs. Going to use a borrowed 300 BO with same can I use to test the subs and if they are sneaky quiet and perform as advertised will rebuild the pair of 300 BO's I tore down for parts. Tried to consolidate to only three AR cartridges then 22 Nosler came out, found deal on 270 AR barrel which is hottest round in AR 15 going now keeping a 130 grain .277 bullet supersonic past 500 yards. Screw stamdarization, I am a hobbiest and experimenter. Just have to make sure and segregate ammo and rifles in way nothing gets mixed up.

Since likelihood of defensive use of a gun outside of my home will be mostly using a handgun will do as always have and use a factory loaded ammo. Let a prosecutor or opposing attorney in civil court wail on having special super bullets, will be able to say came across counter of my LGS officially and not some home rolled super killer round. On the pistol ammo getting at least one of their super expanding and a super high penetration round for each cartridge. Did two runs of 454 Casull last week and will order a box of their 300 grain copper solids that look like a copy of a Keith Bullet. In 454 it should rock for handgun hunting. Also going to try some of their lighter extreme penetration bullets in 44 special for hiking in bear territory where often carry a five shot 44 special loaded to frame stretching pressure.

Speaking of 454 Casul, last night found 200 empty cases with Hornady headstamp that use small primers. I was one of the first I knew on the 454 Casull bus with a Freedom Arms before it was SAAMI accepted and moving from wildcat to factory round. Then added a Rossi Raging Bull so my guess is these are from early in the 454 factory development as all other cases have are large primer. The small give more brass to support case head but thinking might need to use rifle primers to light these things. Any other big bore guys seen this? Pulled out my 500 mag and am considering selling it as is just stupid recoil monster and won't do anything my 454's won't. Was funny as ran the two different runs of 454 then switched to 44 mag and the rounds felt small as fed in and out of press. But the Dan Wesson collection needs some exercise and might drag the Anaconda out to decide if need to sell it while snake guns are so high in price. Soon as get the LeHigh order in and tested will post opinion and may send a few to our resident Utube expert.
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